HS Coach Goes Ballistic-Curses Out Team (Audio)

Bball- It would be if that is what I did but that is not the case.  I was very specific that it is not a comparison it is an Analogy - (Webster's definition) - resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike

 

The analogy went only so far as to key in on attitudes about behavior...what was once acceptable and is no longer.  No more than that.  The fact that I picked an example on school grounds where students were degraded at the hands of adults in power also applies in that context only. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, fire hoses and police dogs!  Now that's dramatic!  I don't think a coach yelling at his players fits into the example categories you list.  Not even close.  You are selling short the plight of true victims.  These kids asked to be on the team.  If the coaches behavior on the video was persistent or a small sample of what went on, perhaps it would warrant this type of "outing"...maybe.  But how about before breaking out the video camera, the player approach the coach and tell him he's got a problem with it?  Or have his parents tell him?  Or go to the AD?  Learning how to deal with situations directly will carry him much further in life than believing that secretly recording and outing people is the best way to deal with situations he doesn't like.  I wouldn't be proud if I or my son did that in this situation.

Like others here, I was raised in a time when this was fairly common but, for better or worse, that time has passed, as far as being acceptable in the HS scene anyway.  I want a coach with this guy’s passion.  I just want it re-channeled a bit.  That said...

 

The athletic field and classroom are two different environments.  Yes, there are commonalities and both are governed by the school board and, thus, excessive cussing or abusive language cannot be permitted.   Yes, the supervising adult must take his/her responsibility seriously.  However, team sports involve team objectives, no structured grading systems, physically demanding conditioning and training and other elements that sometimes call for a different set of disciplinary and motivational tools.

 

There are times when a good butt-chewing is the prescribed method of motivation.  HS coaches today have to find where the line is drawn in regards to how they can butt-chew when called for.  And that certainly isn’t easy.  Would it be acceptable if this coach said “Get your @$$ of the dam field”?  That is still cussing to some but not to others.  At what point is the message so watered down that it isn’t providing the intended jolt the coach is trying to infuse?

 

Passion elicits emotion in both players and coaches.  As others have stated, you want the passion.  Sometimes, for some people, strong language is part of emotion.  While it is certainly not allowed, how severe should the penalty be?   Hopefully, those making the disciplinary decisions understand this aspect of sport.  

 

Regarding foul language in music vs. a profanity laced coach rant – To me, when a coach rants and swears (and I'm not the type of coach who does), he is just putting an exclamation point on his statement.  It is usually not an abusive attack.  It doesn’t really offend me.  But I immediately get that he is very serious about his message.  Most music I hear with offensive language is very sexually explicit and totally demeaning.  This is far more offensive to me.

 

Regarding video/audio taping – you can’t compare secretly recording a coach rant with TV crews shooting a scene of body bags in Vietnam.  What would you think if your kid’s friend video taped your wife walking around in her nightgown at home and posting on you tube?  Inappropriate and an invasion of privacy.  That meeting was meant for the team and no one else.

 

I am surprised that the dynamic of the coach also being the AD hasn’t been discussed – now, that presents a dilemma.   

Again...Analogy.   Video works, examples that changed the world blah blah...don't be so literal. 

 

The kids have no choice if they want to play baseball.  The coach is there and they have absolutely no say on who it is.  If he coaches for any length of time it is his "Program". 

 

But we have now we've stumbled onto how to take on the coach.  To take on the coach you have to have this evidence otherwise it is a he said/he said situation.  At that point you need other players or coaches to back your story.  That only happens if there is a total mutiny.  Most people find their way to MYOB or try to say the least descriptive thing so as not to stick their own neck out on controversial things.  After all no gain in ticking off the coach since he controls the most important thing ...the lineup card.  So people will do the calculus and try to answer with something truthful but vague hoping to split the difference...just in case the coach makes it through.  Video though...no hiding from that.   

 

So rather than looking at the recorder as a coward (it is the coach who is BTW) it is entirely reasonable to think of them as the hero for showing some guts and acquiring the proof.  After all no one put a gun to this guys head and made him go off.  I really doubt this is the first time around the track with this kind of tirade for the ole ball coach. 

 

It is not entirely clear where this video came from but it is stated to have been taken after the game at a team meeting.  I am guessing it happened on the bus, in the outfield or in the locker room with at least 12-15 people present so that makes it a public gathering IMO and thus fair game. 

 

 

I think some of you are confusing "Abusive" with "Inappropriate"...no way this is abusive behavior.

 

As for the clandestine recording...if the identity of the clandestine operative were to be discovered....he wouldn't be playing for me anymore!

 

Right on coach – That was awesome!  Love the passion! 

 

Did he physically assault anyone?  That would be crossing the line.  If not, these are just words.  Only concern is I wonder if this is an everyday occurrence or a one-time thing.  If it’s a regular thing, it could get tiresome, loose the motivational value, and the kids would just tune it out.

 

HS coach would never raise his voice or challenge the players.  He’s a “nice try Billy” type of guy.  I think this is one reason we were 4-18 this year with some fairly talented kids.  Summer coach has passion and calls out kids when they don’t perform (regularly using the F word to get their attention).  Part of the reason summer coach was 51-6 last summer.  I remember my son slamming his bat and not running out an infield pop-up last summer.  It was disrespectful baseball on his part.  I noticed his coach pull him to the side of the dugout and talk to him.  I asked him after the game what the coach said.  He said the coach said “If you ever f-ing do that again your f-ing a$$ will be sitting next to me on the bench”.  My response was “good, make sure it never happens again”.  He has a lot of respect for that coach and I guarantee he will never forget it.

 

If you are offended by this recording, you are likely raising weak and overly sensitive kids who are going to be easily offended and live an unnecessarily drama-filled life.

If a boss yelled at you like this at work, could you file for harassment? yes.

Wouldn't hurt to have the video to help prove it.   

Yup, the heck with due process, finding out all the facts before judging, guilty until proven innocent, dealing with things face-to-face…those are values from a generation past.  Just post a video to "take on the coach" anytime you don't like something.  This is true cowardice, and a very slippery slope my friend.  Where's the line drawn regarding secret recordings - with the boss, a customer, a friend, a spouse?  Do you have a line?  No offense, but in real life I avoid people that think the way you do.

If you don't think it's possible to cross a line without physically assaulting someone, your line needs adjusting or you have been lucky to never have to deal with anyone verbally abusive, especially towards children.

 

The idea that you think it's appropriate to disparage how other people are raising their kids based on their opinion that this is clearly over the line says far more about you than it does about how we're raising our kids.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion.  All three scenarios are clearly team meetings meant to be heard by the team and not the general public.  Even most post-game outfield talks are purposely held at a reasonable distance from parents/fans for that very reason.

Hate to break it to you, but this applies equally well towards your idea of "due process":

 

Children, even HS aged young men, shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of dealing with this kind of rant from an adult, especially one in authority over them, face-to-face alone. There's an enormous difference between confronting this situation as an adult, and as a child/student/player at this HS.

The thing that stuck out the most to me was the coach continued to yell about his players being selfish, trying to hit home runs, etc.  continued to talk/yell about being a TEAM player!  At the same time he went on to scream about how he personally was embarrassed.  How these players were there to represent HIM!  How HE looks, what HE has done.  

 

I can't help but think this coach is not about team, he is out there to prove how great he is.  Sure maybe the talk might have been done to motivate his players.  But there were a lot of ME and I in that tirade no matter what his intent was. Enough to make me wonder if he is more interested in himself than the development of his players.  The best coaches tend to talk about we, the team, and share the blamwithin things go bad.  If his team played that poorly, maybe he should be embarrassed for not having them prepared.  Instead he yelled about the players embarrassing him and his perfection.

In his mind he took no part in the problem!

 

Truth is that bothered me more than the language or the yelling.

       
       

So, any time I get pissed off and yell at my kids because of something they've done wrong I should be arrested for child abuse?  Every time my wife and I get in a fight and raise our voices in anger we should be arrested for spousal abuse?  Come on luv baseball. I know you're smarter than that.

"If you are offended by this recording, you are likely raising weak and overly sensitive kids who are going to be easily offended and live an unnecessarily drama-filled life"

 

That's painting things with a wide brush.

Nope.  It depends on what you say and frequency.  If you call a kid a "Lazy fat stupid Fxxx" for about 10-15 years and they stick a knife in you well I might just say you earned it.  The occasional "Cut that ShXt out or else" is much different.  Also a single comment or a minute or two of arguing is one thing but a 17 minute rant is another.

 

Additionally this is a employee of the School District operating in the stricture of his employment and not a parent or spouse at home.  But if your analogy is that bad behavior is bad behavior and needs to be dealt with consistently then I get that and frankly agree with it.

 

So if you are screaming at your wife and children fxxx you for 17 minutes and you got called on it with a recording, I think you could be very lonely and a lot poorer very fast.  No arrest is happening and nor will it here, but that divorce lawyer will be licking his chops. 

 

If you piss your wife or kids off enough that they know you well enough that ...oh oh here it comes hit the record button...then yeah you should go down and I couldn't blame them for giving you the boot.  THAT is exactly what I think happened here.  This is no isolated instance.  I'll bet if you asked around that town this guy is legendary for this stuff.   

 

This is about proof.  He said/she said is muddy....but 17 minutes of recorded venom will make most people say enough already....He's nuts and has to go or pay the woman in the case of a divorce is the end game.

 

Not to argue minutia, but is there now a time limit on when it becomes abuse?  Is it after 5 minutes? Or 10 minutes? Or is it 17 minutes?  Does it have to be a continued pattern as you state or can it be one time?  If it has to be a continued pattern, should someone keep taping this coach so they have the proof of multiple instances?  Is doing this once a year enough to be considered abusive?  How about twice a year?

 

I hope you see what I am getting at. You claim that this is abusive, but then say there are qualifiers to that. Listening to this tape of a coach getting on his players is either considered  abuse or not. I just don't think it is. Just like if I went off on my own kid for failing three classes for 15 minutes would not be considered abuse. And no court or lawyer would even consider  taking that case. This should not be considered abuse either. 

 

And maybe the coach was suspended because the school would rather do that than be ridiculed for being politically incorrect by the parents who just would rather not have their kids yelled at. It's certainly the easier thing to do. 

OK, now that argument has much more merit. 

On another site one of his former players posted. He said the coach had days where players would go home hating him. But in the big picture they loved playing for him. The poster considered him the best coach he ever had. For what its worth the team is 20-10 this year and finished first in their conference at 10-2 

PG,

I agree with you, however unfortunetly a teams bad performance is a reflection on the coach. It could be that these kids just don't care about how they perform because they don't care about him or his attitude, if that is the case maybe everyone needs to look themselves in the mirror.  Lots of blame to go around perhaps?

 

I still stand by what I feel, I don't like that type of language spoken to my son, but I know that he can take care of his own business, so I wouldn't get involved, of course I may not have felt that way when he was in HS, but we all know that lots of Fbombs to the team in the locker room is not going to emotionally harm anyone, I am sure they have heard all of it at one time or another. Not just in the locker room.

 

What I cant understand is that in this day and age,with HS kids using drugs, drinking, sex, abortions, wild parties, how in the world is this locker room incident going to harm anyone emotionally?

 

 

 

I have been reading this thread for a couple of days and pretty much agreed with many that while the language was not necessary, I was in the camp of no harm no foul. Then today attended a company training sensitivity  program on sexual harassment and hostile workplace activity.

 

While I am sure many would argue ( and I might have been one of them) that a locker room is not the same as a workplace but after thinking about it, it really is. The coach and assistant coaches are paid for their time ( granted  in most cases not enough) so that creates a work place. Just because the kids are not paid does not change this fact. The school really had no chance but to take action, in fact once they were made aware of it they had no choice to deal with it.

Come on out to a construction site sometime. Sensitivity trainers would have a field day!

 

So, should a MLB manager be fired if he yells and curses at his players or at an umpire?  That is a workplace. I know these kids aren't MLB players, but this isn't a workplace either.

 

Everything in life doesn't fit into the same box. Athletic teams fit into a different box than the classroom & the workplace. I'm sorry, they just do. Same as I'm sure the workers and bosses working on an oil rig interact differently than workers and bosses interact in an office environment. 

Yeah, no MLB manager or player has ever been fined suspended for behavior on or off the field, including language.  In fact, I'm pretty sure no one  has ever been fired for going on an F Bomb laced tirade at his subordinates, either. Clearly, I wasn't thinking through my previous posts in this thread.

/sarcasm

I wonder how many of these players were so offended and suffered so much emotional stress that they have quit the team?

Not sure what you're talking about jac. I was referring to dad 43s post. Of course a boss in an office environment will get fired for a tirade like this.  And name me ONE manager in MLB who got fired for yelling at his players or an umpire. That's kind of my point. There are different expectations in different environments. Hence, not everything fits into the same box. 

If a general manager or a VP in the front office acted in this manner with the front office staff in a weekly staff meeting you can better believe HR would having a visit with him very quickly. The locker room being viewed as being different ( and operated under different set of playing rules), I think is coming to an end. We have already have examples of changing times and I do not see it going back.

You are right dad43. Two different environments. I just hope your last part isn't right. I still believe that a good butt chewing at the right times can be a good thing. If we get so soft in this society that a coach can't give his players a good chewing out, we are in deep trouble. JMO.

Let's start with the fact that millionaires being paid by billionaires to manage other millionaires probably have a relationship dymanic that precludes 17 minute tirades that boil down to "This is my team, and if you don't like it F you and get the F out."

 

That said in the "similar problem" vein, MLB rule 9.05 on the ejection of managers for (among other things) using obscene language and fines for said conduct, Bellingham Mariners manager, Leo Durocher, Tony LaRussa, a who's who of 2012 managers, Billy Martin, Marge Schott,Ozzie Guillen, Ozzie again.

 

OK, I'm bored now. Google however many more you like.  You could also try "coach suspended/fired" or "teacher suspended/fired".  Might be a while there, there are 13 million Google results between "coach suspended language" (4M) and "teacher suspended language" (9M).

This is BS.  My son isn't soft because his coaches don't need profanity to motivate him and his teammates. And no one's arguing against a well deserved chewing out, but if you can't do it without demeaning players (or whatever subordinate we're talking about), you're a terrible manager of people.

 

Both my sons have played for good coaches every bit as tough as I ever did, none of whom has ever gotten personal, used profanity, or failed to get the best out of their players. They've also played for bad coaches, who couldn't motivate players, and they didn't play for any longer than they had to.

So I'll ask again jac. Has there ever been a major league manager fired for yelling and cursing at his players or an umpire?

You gave some examples of them being ejected or fined for saying the wrong thing to an umpire, but not to players or about being fired for either.

And I've already stipulated that the classroom is a different environment than the athletic side of things. No point in highlighting that.

jac,

 

I thought you were bored?

 

Id hate for my kid to play for Martin, Durocher, LaRussa, Stengel, Pinella, et.al...terrible coaches who miserably failed to get anything out of their players.  Now Mother Teresa......there's a coach for all of us!....Great humanitarian, but not sure what her W-L record coaching a team would have been.

And I've already explained why it would be rare for an MLB manager to actually be fired for doing what this HS coach did.  Nevertheless, Martin resigned before Steinbrenner could fire him after making comments about Steinbrenner and Jackson in the press. Managers are routinely fined for swearing at umps, but even Earl Weaver didn't go on a 17 minute tirade at one (which I do suspect would at least get a manger suspended these days).

 

And HS level coaches get suspended/fired routinely for behavior like this, which is the actual standard by which we should be judging this incident.

The Venn diagram of assholes and successful coaches has a large intersection. That correlation doesn't imply causation. Moreover, if you think it's appropriate for someone in charge of HS players to emulate Martin, well, more power to you. You might want to keep this website, and this one, handy though.

       
       


So there are none. Ok.

Like I said, the locker room/athletic field is a different environment than the classroom/boardroom.

Martin resigning before he could be fired counts as none.  Right.  Because MLB managers don't routinely flip out on their players and get fired/suspended for doing so, it's clearly OK for HS coaches to do so.  Right.  I suppose Lee Elia narrowly avoiding being fired doesn't count either.

jac,

 

thanks for the links... I have a web link for you, however I am sure given time you will stumble across it without any help.  God help our young men of this country when being told Fyou, brings this much disdain, and calls of abuse.

 

As I stated before, I hope those "boys" get help, as they are likely to  suffer PTSD, and in addition to immediate termination of that beast of a human, the parents ought to exhaust all litigation possible to prevent this tragic event from ever happening again.

 

They should all go to their own "meetings" that start with, "hello, my name is little Johnny, and darn it people like me!"

 

 

In my opinion, a personal attack saying "F you, you represent me" is inappropriate. A player (or players) don't represent a coach, they represent themselves and the team. If a coach said that to me, I would be very angry and most likely consider him a selfish person.

 

I do believe an athletic environment is different than a classroom environment, but I don't believe comparing the treatment of teenagers in school to the treatment of professional athletes is a very good comparison, either. So, in a way, I consider myself in both camps. I feel as though the coach spoke inappropriately in his specific language, but I don't believe it was an abusive act. I also stand by my previous post pertaining to the coach's passion. From personal experience, having a profane coach without the desire to help kids (let's remember, they're kids) is far worse than a profane coach attempting to help kids.

 

Please refrain from personal attacks. I think this thread has some good knowledge and a well-versed discussion, shutting it down because it got too off track would be unfortunate.

 

"Please refrain from personal attacks. I think this thread has some good knowledge and a well-versed discussion, shutting it down because it got too off track would be unfortunate"

 

I agree.