Is the crack in the metal bat monopoly finally here?

We need to stop freaking pampering the kids and their freaking parents---have them play the game the way it is supposed to be played --with wood--

This is not meant to criticize any player or their abilities but just something to think about.I've been a lurker for quite sometime and only a member for a short time.I frequent the pitching/throwing forum and see so many threads about velocity gains,long toss programs,pitch location,pitch counts,etc...I don't recall many that mention getting into a defensive position after delivery.I see alot of pitchers falling off to their gloves side so much so that they would have no chance to at least knock down a line drive straight back at them.I never like to see any player get injured but have we got to point of worrying so much about velocity gains that the basic fundamentals have been put on the back burner?Again,this is not meant to criticize,just somthing for parents/coaches/players to think about.

BTW, I'm all for going back to wood in ALL levels of baseball.

Yes, the crack in the metal bat is getting here... The crack has been coming for quite a while.. This debate is old. The shocker is that nothing seems to come of it.

I think the reason that nothing really comes of it is that we all get riled up over the injuries. But, injuries occur with wood too.

The real argument should be this: At the pinnacle of baseball (MLB) wood is used.

Why are we swinging metal if wood is the goal?


Is there one other sport that trains their players using one element while their sports professionals use another element?

I have watched a lot of college ball this year. I just cannot understand why the college players are not using wood. The MLB has to go to wood bat summer leagues to evaluate players. It is such a huge disconnect.

Teach the kids how to play with wood from the start.

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
Conceptually I agree 100% with your comments, however.....

Why are we swinging metal if wood is the goal?
Heart surgeon was my goal but gutting a deer is as close as I will ever get. When less than 1% will ever realize that MLB goal I don't think that using that as a reason for change works from a reality POV.

Is there one other sport that trains their players using one element while their sports professionals use another element?
Youth basketball often uses a smaller ball because it is easier to handle and maybe that is a legitimate parallel for the use of metal in LL

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Why are we swinging metal if wood is the goal?

How many preteen baseball players is playing pro baseball a reasonable goal? How reasonable is it for most high school players? However, I do believe if a kid can't hit with wood by high school he shouldn't call himself a baseball player.

Someone made a good point on the effect Perfect Game has on other levels of travel bt using wood. If college baseball used wood because it's the step before pro ball, eventually high school wood move to wood because it's the step before college. And so on down the line until LL gets back to wood.

To address TR's point, I think a LL has to get a waiver from headquarters to use wood due to the splintering effect of bats. Getting the waiver isn't a big deal. It's just a matter of having the right league bylaws and waiver of liability to protect from lawsuits.

quote:

Heart surgeon was my goal but gutting a deer is as close as I will ever get

That is very funny.

But... just because only 1% of players make it doesnt mean that the other 99% should not train as if they were going to be in the 1%.

If you are going to spend almost 40 hours a week year round playing or refining their skill.. you should at least try to be the very best at what you are doing.

Success is the goal, it is just a bummer that there is only room for 1%.

quote:

Youth basketball often uses a smaller ball because it is easier to handle and maybe that is a legitimate parallel for the use of metal in LL

So to extend that analogy, are you suggesting small basketballs and 7 foot hoops should be used throughout college since that is as far as most players will get?

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Originally posted by brute66:

quote:

Youth basketball often uses a smaller ball because it is easier to handle and maybe that is a legitimate parallel for the use of metal in LL

So to extend that analogy, are you suggesting small basketballs and 7 foot hoops should be used throughout college since that is as far as most players will get?

Smaller balls and lower baskets. They were at eight feet at seven years olds and nine feet at eight and nine years old. At practice (I coached) I was a slamming, jamming machine in my mid forties at nine feet.

S0ccer and football also uses smaller balls in preteen ball.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I think a LL has to get a waiver from headquarters to use wood due to the splintering effect of bats. Getting the waiver isn't a big deal. It's just a matter of having the right league bylaws and waiver of liability to protect from lawsuits.

Are you sure? I admit to not following the LIttle League rules closely anymore, but I find it hard to believe that a waiver is required to use a wood bat. That would run counter to the Little Green Book.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I think a LL has to get a waiver from headquarters to use wood due to the splintering effect of bats. Getting the waiver isn't a big deal. It's just a matter of having the right league bylaws and waiver of liability to protect from lawsuits.

Are you sure? I admit to not following the LIttle League rules closely anymore, but I find it hard to believe that a waiver is required to use a wood bat. That would run counter to the Little Green Book.

I saw the information second hand on another board. I'm five years removed from LL.

Is there a splinter concern with the latest composite wood bats?

snowman, Im not sure.

However, if the professionals use wood anyone trying to be a professional should be using wood.

snowman, the only legitimate concerns with wood bat breakage revolve around maple bats. When an ash bat breaks, it usually splits lengthwise and stays in one piece. Maple bats often break into two seperate pieces and the barrel sometimes ends up out on the field. You almost never see this kind of bat failure with ash. Composites/laminates made from wood don't seem to have this problem either. The problem seems to be confined to maple.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
snowman, the only legitimate concerns with wood bat breakage revolve around maple bats. When an ash bat breaks, it usually splits lengthwise and stays in one piece. Maple bats often break into two seperate pieces and the barrel sometimes ends up out on the field. You almost never see this kind of bat failure with ash. Composites/laminates made from wood don't seem to have this problem either. The problem seems to be confined to maple.

Thanks. It would seem we have viable/economic options (wood/composite wood bats) to replace the hi tech bats currently in use.

Is there any reason not to get the change back to wood seriously in motion?

snowman, I cant think of even one reason not to play with wood.

What I do know is that until producing metal bats is unprofitable and producing wood bats is more profitable for the makers there will be a big resistance to change.

(Which is actually a good case for getting behind the safety legislation that was recently written up.)

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
snowman, I cant think of even one reason not to play with wood.

What I do know is that until producing metal bats is unprofitable and producing wood bats is more profitable for the makers there will be a big resistance to change.

(Which is actually a good case for getting behind the safety legislation that was recently written up.)

For not being able to think of a reason you came up with one quickly, economics. With your next comment, basically what you're saying is you want the economy legislated by the government.

quote:

With your next comment, basically what you're saying is you want the economy legislated by the government.

Who says the government has to do it? If the conferences ban metal bats is that not legislation? Or the league?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

With your next comment, basically what you're saying is you want the economy legislated by the government.

Who says the government has to do it? If the conferences ban metal bats is that not legislation? Or the league?

This is what I want to see. I want the decision to be at the conference, district or state level by people who oversee high school sports/baseball, not the government.

The injury statistics don't support a ban on metal. The bat companies will be at the hearings. If wood is "chosen" there isn't a hearing. Let's go back to wood because it's the way the game should be played. A subsequent benefit may be less serious injuries. But we don't know for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I want to see. I want the decision to be at the conference, district or state level by people who oversee high school sports/baseball, not the government.

The injury statistics don't support a ban on metal. The bat companies will be at the hearings. If wood is "chosen" there isn't a hearing. Let's go back to wood because it's the way the game should be played. A subsequent benefit may be less serious injuries. But we don't know for sure.

Some bat company attorneys have let be known that regardless of where it comes from, league, conference, NCAA, FED, or the government, any ban on metal will be met with litigation.

That doesn't mean they will prevail, of course. It's a warning that any ban will prove expensive.

RJM (and others) - We are on the same page when it comes to government intervention and (over-)legislation.

But when is it appropriate for the government to step in? IMO, when the playing field is not level...that is, when one very powerful entity (in this case, bat makers, the NCAA (who want lots of runs scored to draw fans)) have far more resources than the 'average Joe.'

Yes, yes, yes...the average-Joes can just decide on his own to use a wood bat if they think its safer or is better for their development or is the way the game should be played. But the truth is (and you know it) that we all believe our sons can hit better and farther and launch more rockets with a metal bat...thus, in the absence of some regulation (personally, I don't really care if its the government or the governing bodies) nearly all of "us" will continue to put a metal bat in our sons' hands so he can have the same chance as the other kids on his team or in his league.

Legislation? Thats about where we are on this now. Sadly, not as big of a deal when some poor kid in Montana, far from the media spotlight, gets blasted in the head and dies. But now we have a kid in a media hotbed who was probably just an average/good HS ballplayer almost get killed...and I think change is a comin'!

The lawmaker proposes to ban it for three years while studies are undertaken. In the meantime, perhaps California HS baseball will have more well-pitched games, closer games, a little more "real" baseball...and perhaps the California hitters will ultimately be better for it. Might be fun to watch!

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I want to see. I want the decision to be at the conference, district or state level by people who oversee high school sports/baseball, not the government.

The injury statistics don't support a ban on metal. The bat companies will be at the hearings. If wood is "chosen" there isn't a hearing. Let's go back to wood because it's the way the game should be played. A subsequent benefit may be less serious injuries. But we don't know for sure.

Some bat company attorneys have let be known that regardless of where it comes from, league, conference, NCAA, FED, or the government, any ban on metal will be met with litigation.

That doesn't mean they will prevail, of course. It's a warning that any ban will prove expensive.

If baseball organizations decide it's not a ban. It's a choice. There's nothing to sue over. They would. But it would be a waste of time. If they want to hold the schools financially hostage in these financial times we can boycott their products.

quote:

With your next comment, basically what you're saying is you want the economy legislated by the government

No, RJM, you said that not me. (And, you did run with my comment a bit far.)


I actually think that piece of legislation is silly for two reasons.... 1) Wood bats are dangerous too and have a long list of tragic accidents associated with them as metal does with metal bat injuries. (Did Matt Keough (Oakland A's) suffer less of an injury being hit by a line drive off of a wood bat or Beau Wright during the Area Codes(played with wood) last year? NO they did not. Those were both serious wood bat head inuries... 2)We should not need a lawmaker on Capitol Hill dictating something we already know we should do.

I just dont understand why the kids are not swinging wood. I do think high schools will be the first to change back to wood (no sponsorships by metal bat company's)... Colleges will be a harder switch.

"I want the decision to be at the conference, district or state level by people who oversee high school sports/baseball, not the government."

Amen to that.

As a dad of a pitcher I say get rid of the metal. One of our starting pitchers on sons high school team was hit in the face by a line drive last wednesday, shattering his orbital bone and sinus cavity. He had to be helicoptered to the hospital and after extensive surgery is going to recover. Luckily he didnt lose his vision but his his promisuingg baseball career is likely over. I bet his parents would have a very strong opinion on this.

This doesn't have to be complicated. The big companies want us to think it is but really it isn't. My son played in a metal bat summer league. During the last game he hit with wood. The only guy from either team. When he came to the plate the other team yelled "woody" and moved in few steps. He went 3-3 that day. Imagine if every kid on both teams had used wood that day and then simply chosen wood for the following seasons. I'm trying imagine the law suit (can't).

And it doesn't have to happen over night. Just a team here, a school district there, a league who knows where. Pretty soon you have a groundswell that makes the change. Is there a reason why a LL player can't walk up to the plate and hit with wood?

Back to wood.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Is there a reason why a LL player can't walk up to the plate and hit with wood?

Back to wood.

My 12 year old has chosen to hit with wood. He still has to pitch against metal, which I don't like.

According to Josh Hamilton's book,he started hitting with wood in High School to remove any doubt from any scouts minds that he may not have as much power with wood.More prospects should think like that.

Last year my son went to bat,in youth baseball,with a wood bat.The umpire stopped the game and asked the opposing coaches if they would allow my son to hit with his wood bat.They had no issue with it.The umpire then turned to the division agent and he stated there was no rule not allowing it.Game went on...He made it seem like my son was causing an unsafe condition by using wood as opposed to aluminum/composite.

So you do your thing Im bout to do mine.


Yep

The fact that you can now break four or five good wooden bats for the cost of one metal says it all. WWBA events are pure baseball and I hate seeing college ERAs over 7 runs per game, but it's just not that uncommon anymore.

Full disclosure: I am the father of a LHP................but enough is enough.

I've seen metal bats break too. Even in half. Usually they crack, but still it's $300 or so down the tubes unless it is under warranty. Even then, break it a second time and most replacement warranties are void. Kid should be swinging a different bat.

Bamboo bats are supposed to be top quality and less prone to breakage. There are not wood though. (Grass) Does anyone have thoughts on this product? (No, not a rep or investor, just wondering) :-) Might be a good alternative to the piecemeal wood bats that are so readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by 55mom:
I've seen metal bats break too. Even in half. Usually they crack, but still it's $300 or so down the tubes unless it is under warranty. Even then, break it a second time and most replacement warranties are void. Kid should be swinging a different bat.

Bamboo bats are supposed to be top quality and less prone to breakage. There are not wood though. (Grass) Does anyone have thoughts on this product? (No, not a rep or investor, just wondering) :-)

Might be a good alternative to the piecemeal wood bats that are so readily available.

"Composite" wood bats are a viable option as well. There are several companies making them. Their prices vary ($85-$155) but they are much less expensive than the majority of high tech bats, perform primarily like wood and have greater longevity than one piece wood bats. I'm not up on Bamboo.

I'd heard that bamboo has a much higher tensile strength, similar to the compression in golf balls. One of the sporting goods suppliers sd that it requires more strength to swing maple since it is more dense. I bought quite a few bamboo bats on eaby for 30 a piece, and can tesitfy to their durability. The kids fist choice is still the demarini comp/maple for games.

We took a wood bat a couple years ago to a showcase for one of the D1 schools, (he was 15) and he hit pretty good. I thought the coach would notice but when he called for eval the coach sd average, slightly under average. When he said he was swinging wood the coach sd that would explain it.

haven't had a chance to bring out the new metal bat we bought shorly after - hopefully wont need to either!

quote:

One of the sporting goods suppliers sd that it requires more strength to swing maple since it is more dense.

I don't understand how this could be true. A 35in/32oz bat is a 35in/32oz bat, whether it's made of Maple or feathers. The only thing that I could see changing the strength required would be if the moment-of-inertia about the swing's pivot point is different. But that too seems unlikely, since the shape of most bats are so similar, and since the mass is distributed pretty evenly no matter what kind of wood.

Any physics guys out there who could explain this one ?

Are Bamboo bats legal in WWBA and other showcase events?

I used to swing a wood bat. I chose the longest one I could find that was weighted to wards the end of the bat. Pure and simple that once you get the head of the bat moving it has greater leverage and speed. To me metal is the great equalizer for younger players.
I broke a $300 metal bat. It snapped at the shank and the head of the bat was still attached by a thin piece of the metal.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I used to swing a wood bat. I chose the longest one I could find that was weighted to wards the end of the bat. Pure and simple that once you get the head of the bat moving it has greater leverage and speed...

I suggest you read the section titled, "Reasons why Aluminum bats can outperform Wood bats" in the link below to see why your story is most likely untrue.

Why Aluminum Bats Can Perform Better than Wood Bats

promoting this at all, just googled, and some explanation is described. Desnisty would equal flexibility as well, maple, bamboo more dense. I know we bought 3 really cheap ash bats in the winter and each broke during batting practice, it was a good chuckle but not worth the $...

http://www.xbatstore.com/selectingmodel.aspx

"which concluded that the batted ball speed of an aluminum baseball bat was about 3.85 mph faster than a wood baseball bat."

Wow big difference !

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
"which concluded that the batted ball speed of an aluminum baseball bat was about 3.85 mph faster than a wood baseball bat."

Wow big difference !

When you're talking about human reaction time over a 60 ft. distance and being able to move your body (head) a few inches...yes, thats a very big (enough) difference. Hopefully you meant that and weren't being sarcastic.

Good article Linear.
Great explanation.