I watched one batter today.
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
I'm done.
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quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
There's a proper way to throw a curveball, and an improper way to throw a curveball. Most pitchers throw the curve improperly. Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
quote:...Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball...
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"? Accordingly, there must be hundreds that get hurt at PG events every year.
I have never seen a pitcher get hurt like this, and I have been doing this a long time.
When you gun a team, the kids get excited for the first pitch or two, then they don't even know you are there for the rest of the game/season.
We should ban grandma from watching little Johnny also. He might try to throw too hard.
This is a silly myth that doesn't pass the slightest bit of scrutiny, and it's a shame that ASMI pushes it.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Out of curiousity, how much of a drop in velocity is a sign of fatigue? 1 mph? 2 mph? 5 mph? When does the gun tell you it is time to take a kid out.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"?
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I like watching it. To me, they're kids getting treated like big leaguers for a little while. It's a dream come true. What's so bad about that?
quote:Originally posted by cf:
Son's team lost in the state finals, one run from making it to the regionals, his 12 year old year. Everyone can bash LLWS tournament all they want, but that run was so much fun for the kids, families and community. Being involved in a tournament that you don't pay to get into and are playing with you friends that you have played with since tball is priceless!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!