Yard,
Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond. I will try to make my response brief. First, it is ironic that many tout Dr. Marshal's career (which was impressive) as a tribute to his studies when he himself admits that he accomplished all of this with his poor "traditional" mechanics. As for many of his ideas, they are not new and many are taught by most. Keeping the elbow within the acromial line is commonly used. After watching much of his video, it is clear that at release the hand and arm action is the same. It is what occurs after the release that differs. Both pronate in a natural way but Dr. Marshall teaches to snap the thumb down in a quick pronation that can lead to bone spurs in the olecranon process. His top half mechanics on the crow step are used by outfielders when they are moving in on a ball or prepared to move in on a fly ball, but cannot be used by infielders making plays on ground balls with runners moving quickly down the line. I did see his video for catching technique and unfortunately the wind-up he teaches would prevent success for throwing out runners at a high level due to the time it takes. As for his pick-offs. They are not legal. In his 1st base direct throw he does not step off and then throw. This is illegal. You must step back then throw from the wind-up position. They need to be two separate actions. The 1st base reverse pivot, same thing. Step off then throw, not one action. 1st base direct throw -set position: comes set, starts motion, stops motion, then throws. This is deceptive, and illegal. Once set, when you start, you cannot stop. I do not feel this move would be as effective without this illegal technique. 2nd base reverse pivot (wind-up); again must step off first. The same with the 3rd base direct pick. I do agree with some aspects such as moving the body in a direct path to the target. I feel the legs are important as does Marshall or the crow step would be of no use and the elongated phase he loves would be wasted. As for keep the path of the arm high and in line, that is simply shoulder tilt. His arm action is is nearly identical to most pitchers just with a larger shoulder tilt to get the ball over the top. I have instituted some of these things with myself and my players for over 15 years with what most call traditional mechanics or what Dr. Marshall may call a modified version of what he wants pitchers to do (I doubt it.) What I do know is that I have never in that time had a pitching related arm injury ever in that time including the 31 years I have pitched. thus I will keep doing what my research has proven to be effective. But, Yard I will keep researching as I always do, and I commend you for fighting for what you believe in. We just believe in some different things.
Bobbleheaddoll,
Agreed, it’s performed modified for the mound by first stepping back with your ball arm foot still engaged and pendulum swinging then driving towards home plate, now not a balk.
The rules state you may pitch from the stretch or windup at any time!
The HS rule was changed (again) to say you may not throw to first from the wind up position so we just step off and we are now in the field and not in the windup position to throw to first.
There is no maybe about it, you know I always answer these challenging questions.
It might be easier for you to understand if we used a word more describing what is happening like crowstep instead of what an outfielder can attain, the full Crow hop.
Either way we never use the set position with runners on so we do not have to come to a set. I have had conversations with hundreds of umpires at all levels and they all say it’s perfectly legal and all the HS umps hate with a passion all the changes in the pitching rules that the rules committee’s come up with that no other levels do. I think the problem you and most have is what it actually says in the rule books and nowhere does it say with runners on you must pitch from the set position.
quote:YB Crow hopping is a balk !.
Agreed, it’s performed modified for the mound by first stepping back with your ball arm foot still engaged and pendulum swinging then driving towards home plate, now not a balk.
quote:“The whole idea of coming set is to take away things like the crow hop !”
The rules state you may pitch from the stretch or windup at any time!
The HS rule was changed (again) to say you may not throw to first from the wind up position so we just step off and we are now in the field and not in the windup position to throw to first.
quote:“Maybe you could explain how you can crow hop and then come set !”
There is no maybe about it, you know I always answer these challenging questions.
It might be easier for you to understand if we used a word more describing what is happening like crowstep instead of what an outfielder can attain, the full Crow hop.
Either way we never use the set position with runners on so we do not have to come to a set. I have had conversations with hundreds of umpires at all levels and they all say it’s perfectly legal and all the HS umps hate with a passion all the changes in the pitching rules that the rules committee’s come up with that no other levels do. I think the problem you and most have is what it actually says in the rule books and nowhere does it say with runners on you must pitch from the set position.
HSBallcoach,
I have a particular like for people who speak up and make their case.
Any length will be absorbed as privileged, I don’t get many who wish to have a frank discussion about this historical subject.
All would be the poor adjective that ruins most good sentences!
This means you may think that his top half mechanic can’t be mixed with those poor bottom half mechanics that later produced a full knee replacement on Dr.Marshall himself, I can assure you it can, Its just more difficult to keep alignment integrity with the overly early turned hip and shoulder rotations from the useless leg lift that lead to supinated imperative of forearm flyout by way of centripetal arm action. I’ve always heard he was a physical freak and not from his theories on the top half mechanics and the training he was then putting himself through daily, now there’s your Irony.
I understand, he has been accused of saying he invented the Screwball when this is false.
All he does is teach where the positive mechanics are like I said Maddux was closer than most and Marshall himself said he was the best (less injurious) of the MLB pitchers
You teach this? You’re the man, out here everybody is in love with the injurious gateway scapular load that both the NPA and ASMI teach.
Yes, this alone locking the humerus in line with the acromial line eliminates shoulder over stress at both ends of the delivery and recovery.
Dr.Marshall asks you to drive the forearm in pronation not snap your thumb down.
Thumbs heading down is just a good sign that you have performed this correctly.
By doing this you have succesfully hinged your arm to which makes you articulate it stress freely. If you supinate then you compress the bones of the humerus and Ulna in a pinching manor that breaks up Hyaline cartilage in youth pitchers that later harden then
break off called bone chips. In the place of this tissue removal grows your bone spur replacement tissue all caused by supination not pronation.
Why not its actually quicker because you have Humeral /forearm transitioned earlier along with your footwork not after when your H/F transition, this is why Marshalls catching technique is superior, you can actually have an average arm strength catcher throw runners out by 4 steps with a poor armed catcher, I’ve seen it.
It is fully understood that long range and short range infielders have 20 different types of throws to make deep, medium, short, ground ball speed, backhanded ( this is where Marshalls short pendulum palm up set is superior), any time an infielder has the need to get rid quicker down lower he will produce more finesse in his throw from less of a powerful position advantage and because this lower position has you take the ball back with you hand under the ball as Marshall wants also.
The timing is shorter by a lot! The body is moving across the plate having you also release closer to second, I witnessed a kid at San Clemente HS do this15 years ago and every 4 batter would run right into the catcher causing batter interference, he would always catch the ball with his ball leg far forwards then swing up supinating thumb up while taking the next step forwards then launched his poor throwing velocity and nailed everybody, all the coaches he would run into including me tried to change his mechanics but he prevailed by sheer prowess, His name was Ben Adair and nobody could run on him, his father was the a previous head coach at Saddlebak JC.
Have you tested your thoughts on this yet at the yard? Or are just saying what you think would happen?
Marshall had many game facets nailed down by High speed videoing to get at the truth.
One of his truthful gems is he would have his runners at first go back standing up with their back to the pitcher, in this way they were all ready to advance on any length first baseman catch error and since it was faster than sliding they could get a full 5 step lead, his teams still hold base stealing records in the NCAA.
There is no question that they are legal in pro ball, you have in High school and you know It 50 changes in 30 years worth of confusion by way of messing with pitching traditional rules that have no real positive effect from the MLB rules. We have had our mechanical technique reviewed and is considered legal even in HS because of the change we had to make by having to step off. Once we stepped off the umps had no problems.
This is for Pony, Travel, Mickey Mantle, Connie Mack, College and Pros.
Not for High school where they have butchered the rules and we must first step off.
In who’s rules? Then why do HS pitchers and others get away with stepping forwards first? Stretching the rules? I know one thing Marshall full motion gives you rotation during acceleration that puts you off the rubber much further than Lincecum’s drag line by 14 inches. As where Lincecum is breaking the rules by 14 inches Marshalls guys are breaking the rules by 34 inches but since it is ballistic it hard to see so Umps do not call this rule lucky for Crowstep motion.
The Crowstep rhythm has you step back or start with your glove leg, same rhythm, we just eliminate the leg lift.
This is a lefty classic back pick where you step off, Be careful here! if you throw it under the fence, it’s two bases instead of one because you are now in the field.
Now you are sounding like an opposing coach who is being successfully competed against
And is pulling the subjective deception HS card, I would expect this to be below you.
Any time you step off you can do anything with the ball you want, remember the pitcher holds the time clock. Why when traditional lefties lift there leg and come to a stop then restart by breaking their hands plus throw their leg towards first are allowed to then go home?
With rightists you simply walk forwards to the pitchers plate and set your ball arm foot upon it with your toes hanging over the rubber, you leave your glove leg behind and become still with the ball already in your glove, get your sign, you can look the runner right in the eye being 90 degree closer, he better move back! If you decide to throw over you just step off and pluck him.
If you decide to go home, you just split your arm, rush the plate and pitch pretty much similar to the windup position, you can also do this with both feet on the rubber but it is just slightly slower but still faster than a traditional slide step because of the untimely H/F transition.
I think you would have to let an experienced teaching umpire explain it to you, I know I finally understood the HS ramifications after spending a lot of time with one of these as I worked on his sons batting and he would stay around to watch the pitchers, he set me straight on a lot of misconceptions and how the HS rules are so screwed up it causes confusion.
You should also never guess at what you think is slower or faster because you might miss out on an opportunity to improve without testing your thoughts?
No stepping anything when dealing with balks to 3rd or 2nd, you may engage or step off to pick over. There are no balks to these bases.
I think you mean alignment of the hips or shoulders or both here to the field driveline?
There is very few who can actually engage their Latisimus Dorsi as the primary mover to drive pronation and Lincecum comes the closest and you can see it in that vid how he powerfully inwardly rotates his humerus and drives safe voluntary pronation snap from “inside of vertical” meaning the forearm passes to the inside instead of off to the out and that is the big difference only seen by High speed video to discern the forearm rotation during drive and the much earlier transition. I call it the difference between “centripetal”(forearm flyout) and “Axipetal” (vertical forearm) where the arm travels more towards the bodies center mass axis. This is when the centrifuging of the arm stops and what Dr.Marshall prefers.
Don’t doubt it, the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum) is alive and calculable. Marshall himself has a lesser teneted Quasi version himself that he leaves with the timid (non bottom half tryers) like Sparks although Sparks was made to perform the lesser Quasi version by his pro coaches or hit the road Jack.
I believe just a few tenets cleans up 90 % of the youth injuries and 50% of the retiring (bottom half injuries) players.
I can see you do much more than most!!!!! How do you feel about pronating the imparited supinated pitches the Cutter, Slider and curve???
This is all I would ever ask of educators protecting children.
Time, curiosity, knowledge then practice finds the answers.
quote:“Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond. I will try to make my response brief”
I have a particular like for people who speak up and make their case.
Any length will be absorbed as privileged, I don’t get many who wish to have a frank discussion about this historical subject.
quote:“First, it is ironic that many tout Dr. Marshal's career (which was impressive) as a tribute to his studies when he himself admits that he accomplished all of this with his poor "traditional" mechanics”
All would be the poor adjective that ruins most good sentences!
This means you may think that his top half mechanic can’t be mixed with those poor bottom half mechanics that later produced a full knee replacement on Dr.Marshall himself, I can assure you it can, Its just more difficult to keep alignment integrity with the overly early turned hip and shoulder rotations from the useless leg lift that lead to supinated imperative of forearm flyout by way of centripetal arm action. I’ve always heard he was a physical freak and not from his theories on the top half mechanics and the training he was then putting himself through daily, now there’s your Irony.
quote:“As for many of his ideas, they are not new and many are taught by most”
I understand, he has been accused of saying he invented the Screwball when this is false.
All he does is teach where the positive mechanics are like I said Maddux was closer than most and Marshall himself said he was the best (less injurious) of the MLB pitchers
quote:“Keeping the elbow within the acromial line is commonly used.”
You teach this? You’re the man, out here everybody is in love with the injurious gateway scapular load that both the NPA and ASMI teach.
Yes, this alone locking the humerus in line with the acromial line eliminates shoulder over stress at both ends of the delivery and recovery.
quote:“Dr. Marshall teaches to snap the thumb down in a quick pronation that can lead to bone spurs in the olecranon process”
Dr.Marshall asks you to drive the forearm in pronation not snap your thumb down.
Thumbs heading down is just a good sign that you have performed this correctly.
By doing this you have succesfully hinged your arm to which makes you articulate it stress freely. If you supinate then you compress the bones of the humerus and Ulna in a pinching manor that breaks up Hyaline cartilage in youth pitchers that later harden then
break off called bone chips. In the place of this tissue removal grows your bone spur replacement tissue all caused by supination not pronation.
quote:“His top half mechanics on the crow step are used by outfielders when they are moving in on a ball or prepared to move in on a fly ball, but cannot be used by infielders making plays on ground balls with runners moving quickly down the line”
Why not its actually quicker because you have Humeral /forearm transitioned earlier along with your footwork not after when your H/F transition, this is why Marshalls catching technique is superior, you can actually have an average arm strength catcher throw runners out by 4 steps with a poor armed catcher, I’ve seen it.
It is fully understood that long range and short range infielders have 20 different types of throws to make deep, medium, short, ground ball speed, backhanded ( this is where Marshalls short pendulum palm up set is superior), any time an infielder has the need to get rid quicker down lower he will produce more finesse in his throw from less of a powerful position advantage and because this lower position has you take the ball back with you hand under the ball as Marshall wants also.
quote:“I did see his video for catching technique and unfortunately the wind-up he teaches would prevent success for throwing out runners at a high level due to the time it takes”
The timing is shorter by a lot! The body is moving across the plate having you also release closer to second, I witnessed a kid at San Clemente HS do this15 years ago and every 4 batter would run right into the catcher causing batter interference, he would always catch the ball with his ball leg far forwards then swing up supinating thumb up while taking the next step forwards then launched his poor throwing velocity and nailed everybody, all the coaches he would run into including me tried to change his mechanics but he prevailed by sheer prowess, His name was Ben Adair and nobody could run on him, his father was the a previous head coach at Saddlebak JC.
Have you tested your thoughts on this yet at the yard? Or are just saying what you think would happen?
Marshall had many game facets nailed down by High speed videoing to get at the truth.
One of his truthful gems is he would have his runners at first go back standing up with their back to the pitcher, in this way they were all ready to advance on any length first baseman catch error and since it was faster than sliding they could get a full 5 step lead, his teams still hold base stealing records in the NCAA.
quote:“As for his pick-offs. They are not legal.”
There is no question that they are legal in pro ball, you have in High school and you know It 50 changes in 30 years worth of confusion by way of messing with pitching traditional rules that have no real positive effect from the MLB rules. We have had our mechanical technique reviewed and is considered legal even in HS because of the change we had to make by having to step off. Once we stepped off the umps had no problems.
quote:“In his 1st base direct throw he does not step off and then throw”
This is for Pony, Travel, Mickey Mantle, Connie Mack, College and Pros.
Not for High school where they have butchered the rules and we must first step off.
quote:“You must step back then throw from the wind-up position.”
In who’s rules? Then why do HS pitchers and others get away with stepping forwards first? Stretching the rules? I know one thing Marshall full motion gives you rotation during acceleration that puts you off the rubber much further than Lincecum’s drag line by 14 inches. As where Lincecum is breaking the rules by 14 inches Marshalls guys are breaking the rules by 34 inches but since it is ballistic it hard to see so Umps do not call this rule lucky for Crowstep motion.
quote:“They need to be two separate actions.”
The Crowstep rhythm has you step back or start with your glove leg, same rhythm, we just eliminate the leg lift.
quote:“The 1st base reverse pivot, same thing”
This is a lefty classic back pick where you step off, Be careful here! if you throw it under the fence, it’s two bases instead of one because you are now in the field.
quote:“Step off then throw, not one action. 1st base direct throw -set position: comes set, starts motion, stops motion, then throws. This is deceptive, and illegal.”
Now you are sounding like an opposing coach who is being successfully competed against
And is pulling the subjective deception HS card, I would expect this to be below you.
Any time you step off you can do anything with the ball you want, remember the pitcher holds the time clock. Why when traditional lefties lift there leg and come to a stop then restart by breaking their hands plus throw their leg towards first are allowed to then go home?
quote:“Once set, when you start, you cannot stop”
With rightists you simply walk forwards to the pitchers plate and set your ball arm foot upon it with your toes hanging over the rubber, you leave your glove leg behind and become still with the ball already in your glove, get your sign, you can look the runner right in the eye being 90 degree closer, he better move back! If you decide to throw over you just step off and pluck him.
If you decide to go home, you just split your arm, rush the plate and pitch pretty much similar to the windup position, you can also do this with both feet on the rubber but it is just slightly slower but still faster than a traditional slide step because of the untimely H/F transition.
quote:“I do not feel this move would be as effective without this illegal technique”
I think you would have to let an experienced teaching umpire explain it to you, I know I finally understood the HS ramifications after spending a lot of time with one of these as I worked on his sons batting and he would stay around to watch the pitchers, he set me straight on a lot of misconceptions and how the HS rules are so screwed up it causes confusion.
You should also never guess at what you think is slower or faster because you might miss out on an opportunity to improve without testing your thoughts?
quote:“ 2nd base reverse pivot (wind-up); again must step off first. The same with the 3rd base direct pick.”
No stepping anything when dealing with balks to 3rd or 2nd, you may engage or step off to pick over. There are no balks to these bases.
quote:“I do agree with some aspects such as moving the body in a direct path to the target.”
I think you mean alignment of the hips or shoulders or both here to the field driveline?
quote:“His arm action is nearly identical to most pitchers just with a larger shoulder tilt to get the ball over the top.”
There is very few who can actually engage their Latisimus Dorsi as the primary mover to drive pronation and Lincecum comes the closest and you can see it in that vid how he powerfully inwardly rotates his humerus and drives safe voluntary pronation snap from “inside of vertical” meaning the forearm passes to the inside instead of off to the out and that is the big difference only seen by High speed video to discern the forearm rotation during drive and the much earlier transition. I call it the difference between “centripetal”(forearm flyout) and “Axipetal” (vertical forearm) where the arm travels more towards the bodies center mass axis. This is when the centrifuging of the arm stops and what Dr.Marshall prefers.
quote:“I have instituted some of these things with myself and my players for over 15 years with what most call traditional mechanics or what Dr. Marshall may call a modified version of what he wants pitchers to do (I doubt it.) “
Don’t doubt it, the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum) is alive and calculable. Marshall himself has a lesser teneted Quasi version himself that he leaves with the timid (non bottom half tryers) like Sparks although Sparks was made to perform the lesser Quasi version by his pro coaches or hit the road Jack.
I believe just a few tenets cleans up 90 % of the youth injuries and 50% of the retiring (bottom half injuries) players.
quote:“What I do know is that I have never in that time had a pitching related arm injury ever in that time including the 31 years I have pitched. thus I will keep doing what my research has proven to be effective”
I can see you do much more than most!!!!! How do you feel about pronating the imparited supinated pitches the Cutter, Slider and curve???
quote:“But, Yard I will keep researching as I always do, and I commend you for fighting for what you believe in.”
This is all I would ever ask of educators protecting children.
quote:“We just believe in some different things”
Time, curiosity, knowledge then practice finds the answers.
Bballman,
I have never seen anyone say complete! This adjective ruins this sentence.
It is only obvious that Dr.Marshall’s discovery was built up over time, even the time when he was playing and High speed filming himself.
There are several tenets that he later perfected in the top half mechanics after his playing days but he still performed the main tenets that his original scientific research uncovered and explained as in using your lat’s as the primary mover instead of your pech and pronation of all his pitches that are also more advanced now.
Looking at stills tells you little and often tells you the reverse of what is actually happening.
This is because that mechanic is one of the tenets that he teaches today that he strived for back then.
This is far from his pedagogy.
He teaches to keep the shoulders parallel to the ground during the pendulum and transition phases until the arms arrive (glove arm just below eyesight of the target and straight at it) (ball upper arm at shoulder height, forearm slightly bent with ball at ear height) at driveline height with shoulders going no further in rotation than the field driveline, much different than you have explained here.
In order to engage your Lats as the primary mover you must drive your elbow ahead of your forearm after transition allowing your Humerus to attain a more vertical position, the more vertical it is the more the lats take over, I can see where Marshall performs this poorly but I can assure you he understood it even back then.
Marshall accomplished this even without the more radicalized version he now pushes for but his pronated drive ensured that this was performed. All pronators engage their Lat’s better, all supinators engage their pech’s.
Is delivery the acceleration phase to you or the transition and acceleration phase or the pendulum swing and transition and acceleration phases?
Even my pitchers are aware of this and even though they do not start their supination at 45 degrees going back making them later they still get it turned at the top,not as good as Marshall would like. The problem comes when they have to lift their legs traditionally making it very difficult to supinate going back but possible with good work.
His transition then was earlier than all but not all the way early the way he teaches it now, the picture shows him in the acceleration phase or at the end of the transition phase? This is what I mean about stills or low frame rate video, there is no frames of reference.
He would be the first to admit he did the transition poorly just much better than traditional. All pitchers who pronate their fastball and change up and Sinkers get into a fully outwardly rotated humerus with the forearm then attain supination, the difference is Marshall voluntarily performed it at the back earlier instead of bouncing it off to the side. Many pitchers now are attaining a further back transition.
And we are correct in doing so because of the discovery in infancy then of a straighter lines, pronation of all pitches and engaging the Lats. It may be that just these few changes keeps you healthy as Dr.Marshall was by being able to pitch 3 innings in every game if they let him.
You were doing good until you used “perfected” as your adjective qualifier!
Going by his written statements is the best you can get on this subject of provenance.
You need to remember he was traditionally trained and proprioceptively set up until the time he started with the Dodgers where most of his upper half discovery was practiced after it was previously formulated.
He was using the wrist weights and Iron ball overload training every day even on game days showing us that his exercise biology was right about this tenet just like Fred’s correct contention that strength pays big dividends in injury prevention.
I never take newer clients who are older and set in their traditional mechanics and try to whole cloth change them, I just get them straighter, have them arrive timely at the back, try to get them to turn their Humerus earlier and teach them all pronated pitches usually by just eliminating the supinated ones and teaching them how to throw the same pitches pronated.
I can see you know your stuff even though you have a few things misunderstood and appreciate your manly demeanor when discussing these issues, keep up the good work, you are the ones that will help eliminate these unnecessary injuries and I would bring my 10 cyo boy to you for advice any day if I had one.
quote:“Just to point something out. I know the Marshall guys have said that Marshall used his complete - upper half - mechanics when he pitched.”
I have never seen anyone say complete! This adjective ruins this sentence.
It is only obvious that Dr.Marshall’s discovery was built up over time, even the time when he was playing and High speed filming himself.
There are several tenets that he later perfected in the top half mechanics after his playing days but he still performed the main tenets that his original scientific research uncovered and explained as in using your lat’s as the primary mover instead of your pech and pronation of all his pitches that are also more advanced now.
quote:“If you look at the picture of Marshall pitching in the above article, I see two things right off hand that are not part of what he teaches today”
Looking at stills tells you little and often tells you the reverse of what is actually happening.
quote:”First of all, his shoulders are parellel to the ground and his arm is in a very traditional position at what appears to be foot plant”
This is because that mechanic is one of the tenets that he teaches today that he strived for back then.
quote:“Marshall pitchers are taught to have the arm high above the head with shoulders tilted to the glove side arm”
This is far from his pedagogy.
He teaches to keep the shoulders parallel to the ground during the pendulum and transition phases until the arms arrive (glove arm just below eyesight of the target and straight at it) (ball upper arm at shoulder height, forearm slightly bent with ball at ear height) at driveline height with shoulders going no further in rotation than the field driveline, much different than you have explained here.
quote:“This is supposed to help them use the Lats and Triceps in delivery of the ball. Sure looks like Marshall will be using his pecs to bring his arm forward here.”
In order to engage your Lats as the primary mover you must drive your elbow ahead of your forearm after transition allowing your Humerus to attain a more vertical position, the more vertical it is the more the lats take over, I can see where Marshall performs this poorly but I can assure you he understood it even back then.
Marshall accomplished this even without the more radicalized version he now pushes for but his pronated drive ensured that this was performed. All pronators engage their Lat’s better, all supinators engage their pech’s.
quote:Secondly, Marshall pitchers are taught to have their forearm and wrist in a fully supinated position prior to delivery - ie, taking the ball out of the glove with the hand under the ball. This is so there is no other way to deliver the ball except to pronate it.”
Is delivery the acceleration phase to you or the transition and acceleration phase or the pendulum swing and transition and acceleration phases?
Even my pitchers are aware of this and even though they do not start their supination at 45 degrees going back making them later they still get it turned at the top,not as good as Marshall would like. The problem comes when they have to lift their legs traditionally making it very difficult to supinate going back but possible with good work.
quote:Marshall looks like he is holding the ball in a pronated position prior to delivery
His transition then was earlier than all but not all the way early the way he teaches it now, the picture shows him in the acceleration phase or at the end of the transition phase? This is what I mean about stills or low frame rate video, there is no frames of reference.
quote:“Maybe he can and did, but I don't see much of a way for him to pronate that pitch from the extremely pronated position he is holding it in this picture.”
He would be the first to admit he did the transition poorly just much better than traditional. All pitchers who pronate their fastball and change up and Sinkers get into a fully outwardly rotated humerus with the forearm then attain supination, the difference is Marshall voluntarily performed it at the back earlier instead of bouncing it off to the side. Many pitchers now are attaining a further back transition.
quote:Maybe he just held his wrist and forearm in this pronated position throughout his delivery. Either way, it is not what is taught now by the Marshall camp” [quote]
It is just further along now and radicalized by eliminating the leg lift that allows for full supinated arrival at the back.
[quote]because the Marshall camp (not just you Yard) uses Marshall himself as an example of his mechanics being used in the Major Leagues.
And we are correct in doing so because of the discovery in infancy then of a straighter lines, pronation of all pitches and engaging the Lats. It may be that just these few changes keeps you healthy as Dr.Marshall was by being able to pitch 3 innings in every game if they let him.
quote:They say he is an example and the reason he set all the records he did was because of his perfected upper half mechanics he himself used when he was pitching
You were doing good until you used “perfected” as your adjective qualifier!
quote:I don't see that to be the case in this picture.
Going by his written statements is the best you can get on this subject of provenance.
You need to remember he was traditionally trained and proprioceptively set up until the time he started with the Dodgers where most of his upper half discovery was practiced after it was previously formulated.
He was using the wrist weights and Iron ball overload training every day even on game days showing us that his exercise biology was right about this tenet just like Fred’s correct contention that strength pays big dividends in injury prevention.
I never take newer clients who are older and set in their traditional mechanics and try to whole cloth change them, I just get them straighter, have them arrive timely at the back, try to get them to turn their Humerus earlier and teach them all pronated pitches usually by just eliminating the supinated ones and teaching them how to throw the same pitches pronated.
I can see you know your stuff even though you have a few things misunderstood and appreciate your manly demeanor when discussing these issues, keep up the good work, you are the ones that will help eliminate these unnecessary injuries and I would bring my 10 cyo boy to you for advice any day if I had one.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:“Just to point something out. I know the Marshall guys have said that Marshall used his complete - upper half - mechanics when he pitched.”
I have never seen anyone say complete! This adjective ruins this sentence.
It is only obvious that Dr.Marshall’s discovery was built up over time, even the time when he was playing and High speed filming himself.
There are several tenets that he later perfected in the top half mechanics after his playing days but he still performed the main tenets that his original scientific research uncovered and explained as in using your lat’s as the primary mover instead of your pech and pronation of all his pitches that are also more advanced now.
Yard, just to point something out, here is a post from back on November 4, 2010 between you and myself:
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:Marshall did not use the tenets he teaches now when he pitched 30 years ago. Please don't use him as an example.
Yes he did! He is a perfect example.quote:“Not Dr. Marshall who pitched before he developed the current tenets”
He used all the upper half tenets!
You state here that Marshall used "ALL" the upper half tenets and that he was a "PERFECT" example of his upper half tenets. I don't know why you continue to deny that you have said this type of thing. I guess it is so you can continue to use Dr. Marshall as an example of someone who has made it to the Major Leagues using the Marshall technique.
Obviously, as you stated in the above response, it was still a work in progress at the time he was pitching, so he can't really be used as an example of someone making it to the MLB using total Marshall mechanics. His record setting career cannot be used as an example of his mechanics being used to set the incredible rigorous use records that he set.
Believe me, I'm not taking away anything from Dr. Marshall's baseball career. I'm just saying that he wasn't using his total upper half or bottom half tenets while he was pitching. So, before you chastise me for bringing up that Marshall guys like to say that Dr. Marshall was an example of him using ALL of his upper half tenets in the MLB, remember that you yourself have said this.
bballman,
Good catch! But don't expect it to change anything.
After years and years of abject failure the Marshall crusaders have more lately relied on techniques that don't require any actual evidence of successful performance by Marshall-trained pitchers...instead, they just revise history and invent nonsensical calculations of "Marshall tenets" which can be applied retrospectively to any pitcher they happen to think would be good to associate themselves with.
Good catch! But don't expect it to change anything.
After years and years of abject failure the Marshall crusaders have more lately relied on techniques that don't require any actual evidence of successful performance by Marshall-trained pitchers...instead, they just revise history and invent nonsensical calculations of "Marshall tenets" which can be applied retrospectively to any pitcher they happen to think would be good to associate themselves with.
Google "cult", grasshopper, and you shall find the answer you seek.
It must be February. It's Groundhog Day all over again 
I've only been around here for a few shorts years, but it seems to me that this debate rages anew each year in late-January and early-February ... and the battle lines never change.
As for me and SP_Son we're going to stick with drinking the National Pitching Association Kool-Aid, because in spite of the certain tragedy that awaits him for not following the tenets of Dr. Mike, he remains happy, healthy, and enjoying a great deal of fun and success on the field.
Can't wait for March & April to comearound
I've only been around here for a few shorts years, but it seems to me that this debate rages anew each year in late-January and early-February ... and the battle lines never change.
As for me and SP_Son we're going to stick with drinking the National Pitching Association Kool-Aid, because in spite of the certain tragedy that awaits him for not following the tenets of Dr. Mike, he remains happy, healthy, and enjoying a great deal of fun and success on the field.
Can't wait for March & April to comearound
Yard,
I will try to address some of the discussion items. As for the pick-offs out of the wind-up. You said that you can throw directly to second or third and to first. I stated that you must step off first the then you can. That is what I meant by stating that you must first step back off of the rubber. This is clearly stated in rule 6 art. 2 (page 38) in the Fed. rules book. As for the deception, I am a lefty that made a killing off of my move, I understand deception and how to use it. I also know that the example of the lefty stopping at leg lift then going home would be a balk as well. The only way it could be allowed is if the pitcher stopped every time and nearly all umps are going to call it for stopping your motion. With the discussion of the arm and centripetal fly-out versus axipetal fore arm, I look at the distance of the hand from the center of gravity with the body and really the only difference is the shoulder tilt. The ball is equidistant from the body’s center of gravity whether the hand is up high due to shoulder tilt or lower due to level shoulders. This means that the action is really based on the tilt of the shoulders. As for the catching technique, I did test the timing with my assistant coach and found that it was about 3/10-1/2 second slower this was pretty consistent over multiple times. It is also not very feasible to use this technique due to the risk of injury it could place on the catcher. Great catchers have their feet set or setting as the ball is arriving. If you use the technique shown by Marshall you would start moving forward prior to receiving the pitch and would be in line to be hit by the batter either on the swing or the back swing. Ground gained by moving the body toward second with steps does not overcome the speed of a thrown ball. The faster the ball gets out of the catcher’s hand the better. For every step a fielder is taking with the ball, the runner is taking two. As for the pronation issue, I feel it is something that occurs naturally with the ball release and is not something that the body should force. I really can’t find a photo of a pitcher that does not have some form of pronation as it is the natural placement of the hand when in front of the body. Pitchers keep their arms slightly bent even in follow through. This protects the elbow naturally and a long follow through gives the arm ample time to slow. Dr. Marshall's forced pronation leads to forcefully locking the elbow (at least in his example) that can lead to many elbow issues. I feel Dr. Marshall has a good heart and means well. I do not feel that everything he talks about is without merit, but I think he takes it way over the top to where much of his ideas are not usable. His student examples are not doing well with his mechanics in college. I looked up their stats. Guys like Randy Johnson (centripetal fly-out) and Greg Maddox (not a lot of pronation on the follow through after release) were very successful. I do not believe his method is the answer. I have devoted enough time to this topic and am ready to move on. Thank you for your responses though as I appreciate hearing everyone’s thoughts.
I will try to address some of the discussion items. As for the pick-offs out of the wind-up. You said that you can throw directly to second or third and to first. I stated that you must step off first the then you can. That is what I meant by stating that you must first step back off of the rubber. This is clearly stated in rule 6 art. 2 (page 38) in the Fed. rules book. As for the deception, I am a lefty that made a killing off of my move, I understand deception and how to use it. I also know that the example of the lefty stopping at leg lift then going home would be a balk as well. The only way it could be allowed is if the pitcher stopped every time and nearly all umps are going to call it for stopping your motion. With the discussion of the arm and centripetal fly-out versus axipetal fore arm, I look at the distance of the hand from the center of gravity with the body and really the only difference is the shoulder tilt. The ball is equidistant from the body’s center of gravity whether the hand is up high due to shoulder tilt or lower due to level shoulders. This means that the action is really based on the tilt of the shoulders. As for the catching technique, I did test the timing with my assistant coach and found that it was about 3/10-1/2 second slower this was pretty consistent over multiple times. It is also not very feasible to use this technique due to the risk of injury it could place on the catcher. Great catchers have their feet set or setting as the ball is arriving. If you use the technique shown by Marshall you would start moving forward prior to receiving the pitch and would be in line to be hit by the batter either on the swing or the back swing. Ground gained by moving the body toward second with steps does not overcome the speed of a thrown ball. The faster the ball gets out of the catcher’s hand the better. For every step a fielder is taking with the ball, the runner is taking two. As for the pronation issue, I feel it is something that occurs naturally with the ball release and is not something that the body should force. I really can’t find a photo of a pitcher that does not have some form of pronation as it is the natural placement of the hand when in front of the body. Pitchers keep their arms slightly bent even in follow through. This protects the elbow naturally and a long follow through gives the arm ample time to slow. Dr. Marshall's forced pronation leads to forcefully locking the elbow (at least in his example) that can lead to many elbow issues. I feel Dr. Marshall has a good heart and means well. I do not feel that everything he talks about is without merit, but I think he takes it way over the top to where much of his ideas are not usable. His student examples are not doing well with his mechanics in college. I looked up their stats. Guys like Randy Johnson (centripetal fly-out) and Greg Maddox (not a lot of pronation on the follow through after release) were very successful. I do not believe his method is the answer. I have devoted enough time to this topic and am ready to move on. Thank you for your responses though as I appreciate hearing everyone’s thoughts.
