Yardbird how do you respond to the UMPs on another thread calling the motion illegal ? The movement that starts forward before contacting the rubber is illegal. That is why pitchers toe the rubber and rock back and load before going forward. That of course means that the hand goes backwards before driving forward.
quote:Marshallites continue to hang on one of the few examples of unorthodoxy that prevailed. It didn't take the Fosbury Flop forty years to catch on. Why? He demonstrated success.
I agree with RJM on this. Fosbury was successful. Not so with Marshallites yet. 40 years is a long time to wait.
quote:Marshall may understand all the science. He may have perfected a way for pitchers to minimize injury. The problem is the techinique has not proved to be effective from a baseball success standpoint at the high end of the game. Therefore it's useless science.
Don't necessarily agree with this. I don't think Marshallites have been pitching long enough at a high enough level to demonstrate that their techniques are injury free yet. Tom Glavine pitched for, what, 18 or 20 years in the majors before he went on the DL. Some guys go 5, 10 yrs with no problem. I don't believe there have been any Marshall guys going long enough in a highly competitive environment to say that the techniques are foolproof. In theory, I am sure that is the case, but real life is a whole different thing.
Before Marshall himself is used as an example, he did NOT use his own current technique when he pitched. Maybe towards the end of his career he used a few of the precursors to his current tenents, but, he pretty much set his records using a traditional motion, then incorporated some of what he is teaching now into his delivery.
Speaking of that, why wouldn't he teach exactly what he was doing back then since it was so effective that he set his records? Obviously, he was doing something right - and he was not doing what he is now teaching.
I will try to answer that.
One day a few years ago my wife came running up to me with a Marhsall add. She said this guy has discovered the secret to pitching at 100mph without injury. I laughed at her and said I had received emails from this guy after answering one of his adds. I won't say what I said next.
He uses this to set himself apart from the boring old traditionalists.
One day a few years ago my wife came running up to me with a Marhsall add. She said this guy has discovered the secret to pitching at 100mph without injury. I laughed at her and said I had received emails from this guy after answering one of his adds. I won't say what I said next.
He uses this to set himself apart from the boring old traditionalists.
Yardbird,
You made note of my earlier post, and asked if I have “any suggestions.” If you are asking if I have any constructive suggestions as to how you might more effectively communicate your ideas, without these threads becoming extended, impassioned arguments, flavored with personal jabs; I do have some thoughts along those lines.
Please note that I do not question or impugn your knowledge, beliefs, integrity, motivations or passion for the subject. That said, consider these ideas …
-- First, recognize that you are passionately advocating a school of thought and training that is considered by the vast majority of the baseball world as being on the very fringe, even after 20+ years of being around. If people were going to flock to it, they would have started flocking by now.
-- People are best persuaded by a growing body of evidence of success, not long, technical discussions of complex theories that are foreign to them, laced with jargon with which they are unfamiliar. If you can’t keep it simple, you can’t sell it.
-- e-Mail (which this essentially is) is a horrible communications medium for complex discussions, let alone debates. The medium itself tends to suppress understanding, and magnify negative emotions. Also, blunt language & incendiary comments are easily magnified out of proportion in this medium, and inspire those who disagree to become more fixed in their position, and potentially more disagreeable.
-- When one reads comments that smack of paranoia, or a conspiracy to suppress the “truth”, the writer comes off as someone who is wearing a purple smock, black Nikes, and drinking grape Kool-Aid. As a reader who likes to give all the benefit of the doubt, let me tell you in all honesty that many of your posts that I have read over the last year have left me with this image.
-- Remember: A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. You’re working way too hard trying to sell your ideas.
Suggestion: You clearly believe in the teachings of Dr. Marshall. Mr. Marshall has a pitching school, newsletters, and other ways of spreading the word. I would suggest that you simply tell folks that you, and many you have trained, have found value in the Mike Marshall approach. Suggest that they check it out for themselves. You might even give them a website or phone number to help them find their way. Then leave it at that.
If they ask why you believe in this approach, you can speak briefly about results realized, and send them off to do their own investigation. This way, they own the research, and they are more likely to buy what you are trying so hard to get them to see.
Don’t try to teach via e-mail. It is extremely difficult to do effectively, even when you have a motivated learner, and a common jargon and starting point for the discussion.
Adhere to these thoughts and you will typically garner more respect, and better results. I may be way off base here, but I don’t think the approach you have been following is achieving the desired end. I sincerely hope that something in these thoughts proves to be helpful.
PS – My earlier post was an effort to use a little sarcastic humor to make the point that – in one man’s opinion -- these “Marshall Threads” keep devolving into people speaking past each other, rather than to each other, towards no real productive end.
You made note of my earlier post, and asked if I have “any suggestions.” If you are asking if I have any constructive suggestions as to how you might more effectively communicate your ideas, without these threads becoming extended, impassioned arguments, flavored with personal jabs; I do have some thoughts along those lines.
Please note that I do not question or impugn your knowledge, beliefs, integrity, motivations or passion for the subject. That said, consider these ideas …
-- First, recognize that you are passionately advocating a school of thought and training that is considered by the vast majority of the baseball world as being on the very fringe, even after 20+ years of being around. If people were going to flock to it, they would have started flocking by now.
-- People are best persuaded by a growing body of evidence of success, not long, technical discussions of complex theories that are foreign to them, laced with jargon with which they are unfamiliar. If you can’t keep it simple, you can’t sell it.
-- e-Mail (which this essentially is) is a horrible communications medium for complex discussions, let alone debates. The medium itself tends to suppress understanding, and magnify negative emotions. Also, blunt language & incendiary comments are easily magnified out of proportion in this medium, and inspire those who disagree to become more fixed in their position, and potentially more disagreeable.
-- When one reads comments that smack of paranoia, or a conspiracy to suppress the “truth”, the writer comes off as someone who is wearing a purple smock, black Nikes, and drinking grape Kool-Aid. As a reader who likes to give all the benefit of the doubt, let me tell you in all honesty that many of your posts that I have read over the last year have left me with this image.
-- Remember: A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. You’re working way too hard trying to sell your ideas.
Suggestion: You clearly believe in the teachings of Dr. Marshall. Mr. Marshall has a pitching school, newsletters, and other ways of spreading the word. I would suggest that you simply tell folks that you, and many you have trained, have found value in the Mike Marshall approach. Suggest that they check it out for themselves. You might even give them a website or phone number to help them find their way. Then leave it at that.
If they ask why you believe in this approach, you can speak briefly about results realized, and send them off to do their own investigation. This way, they own the research, and they are more likely to buy what you are trying so hard to get them to see.
Don’t try to teach via e-mail. It is extremely difficult to do effectively, even when you have a motivated learner, and a common jargon and starting point for the discussion.
Adhere to these thoughts and you will typically garner more respect, and better results. I may be way off base here, but I don’t think the approach you have been following is achieving the desired end. I sincerely hope that something in these thoughts proves to be helpful.
PS – My earlier post was an effort to use a little sarcastic humor to make the point that – in one man’s opinion -- these “Marshall Threads” keep devolving into people speaking past each other, rather than to each other, towards no real productive end.
quote:Cap_n,
quote:
“cept they get to run-and-throw 100mph.”
Marshall’s delivery is close to this accept cricket bowlers are not allowed to bend their ball arm.
I wouldn't know. I have yet to see any credible video illustrating any baseball pitcher using the preferred Dr. M. mechanics at any high level MLB game showing superior velocity and control.
.....exactly like baseballs??? A 15% increase in weight (especially at this level) is not exactly like anything.quote:Cricket balls weigh exactly like baseballs around 5.7 oz.
I'm all in favor of closing this thread.....can I get a second on this motion?
Many pitchers have a few of the tenets Marshall wants. That is because these are tenets that many traditional pitchers already have. Just because Marshall call those his doesn't make it so. Your AFLAC pitcher was a traditional pitcher. I could see Marshall making unfavorable criticism of your pitcher's mechanics unless he makes it to the MLB, at which point Marshall will take full credit.
BobbleheadDoll,
I have answered this question before, these umpires should call the rules evenly for everybody or they will open up a can of worms that even Pandora would be proud of!
First the answer is yes, Marshall pitchers are breaking the rules by leaving the pitchers plate before the ball is released in the same way ALL traditional pitchers break this same rule by leaving the pitchers plate before release. If you have access to High speed video or film you will discover that traditional pitchers are between 6 to 18 inches off of the plate and Marshall pitchers are between 6 to 48 inches off of the plate. If you were to enforce the rule with traditional pitchers they would be so disconnected and anchored down it would cause insurmountable problems. Please don’t go there!
Not sure what you mean here?
The movement that starts forward in the wind up position is always connected to the pitchers plate with a Marshall delivery, what video are you speaking of?
The only reason they do this like described is because they were taught to do it and has no rule correlation other than it is legal just like Marshall’s full version start.
You have lost me here, what is illegal?
Marshall does not do ads, they cost a fortune, maybe it was someone else’s ad maybe a radio broadcast ad, the only information you could get from him prior to his internet start was if you wrote him or you heard him interviewing on the radio?
Marshall is not selling anything, it’s all free, and why would he buy ad space for a non-profit service? All you need to do is Google him. He does not seek the people who show up at his door, they are coming to him for new yard life.
It’s amazing how intuitive and protective Women are. Marshall says women will be the ones that will get the most movement in regards to this implementation with some.
What ads? It’s good to see you fess up here, good for you! You should see Marshall do subtraction. Now back to mechanics?
Southpaw_dad.
Thanks for the ideas! I will go over them several times to glean the gems.
Getting a quality response is not rare here in the general post section but has a tendency to wane here in the learning pitching skills section. I believe we would all learn more if people would tell us what they believe in rather than what some body else does, they always get it wrong.
Yes this recognition came at the turn of the century when the information was disseminated via the Internet. Things have to start somewhere.
It’s only been 9 years for the public and a couple of years before that with very few.
Marshall did not self publish his information before 2000.
Can you name another instructor other than Marshall and Yardbird whom is teaching this material and Marshall does not work with youth.
The information will only be useful to those who wish to participate, all others may do what they wish, I will not ruin other threads that need to explain their beliefs although
Since all others are proprietary I believe much information is left out here and many other
Sites. Not so with Marshall.
Are you calling this message board e-mail? I do not e-mail as a mass information spreader If you are talking about Marshall’s site? This would be his decision. I don’t think any of this should hinder a discussion on human motor performance! If you are talking this style of message board , I see what you mean.
Do you deny this ever happens? I would agree here if it were actually paranoia and not just fanciful name-calling.
I do not think this way, this may be my undoing! I will suppress this information in the future, if I recognize it, do paranoi’ic people recognize their paranoia?
I assure you my sneakers are white, I wear a blue jacket and I prefer Cherry Kool Aid.
If it was grape it would be called grape drink according to Dave Chapelle.
I have no reason to lie here, I’m on record for what I say, If I say Marshall’s full mechanic looks repugnant and that is an arrow in it’s back I mean it!
This is one of those gems, thanx!
Marshall has shut down his pitching research center to the public except for visitors and has only diseminated material via mail and his web page.
This is way to important to me for youth pitchers here, I think a thread designed for how to information should be left to its own merits and if people wish to read it and benefit from the truth can do so from someone who has repeated these successes.
I have tried this approach many times and it always starts a fire where false claims are then spread. This is my big sticking point; I must get over this, should I just ignore them? and just keep posting positively?
I have done this also, same result.
This may ultimately be the best approach? Gem!
I don’t know about this? I have learned more from Marshall’s personal published e-mails than anywhere except his free e-books.
I am not looking for personal respect, just civil discourse and eliminating youth throwing injuries and could care less about Pro’s.
You have been honest and respectful and I did learn, hey you were right!
cap_n,
I thaught this was High School Baseball Web? I guess were mid level?
You would think throwing an object that weighs slightly more as with Cricket players
do would tend to make them throw slower which is not the case. This evidence shows
That throwing of off center mass garners you great velocity! I was giving baseballs the fudgement.
See!!!!!! Cap_n has left the house.
MTS,
Yes, Juan Marichal, Maddux, Lincecum but their rating is right on the edge of not being enough plus they have to deal with their useless leg lift and lengthy glove side leg drive.
If your rating falls below a 300 you are susceptible. I cringe when the guys who are down in the 000 and 200 range.
Yes, this is why they have them.
You do not understand this point, everybody has their tenets or they don’t look at it this way! Again what are you’re tenets? I have mine. I know asking you questions will not
get any reply but I will keep trying.
I’m beginning to believe you may understand the general sense involved in pronated drives and releases plus the in line nature of these mechanics but do not think you understand how the critical arm turn over is different at initial force application.
This timing is where the injurious drive components are overcome!
I do not look at it as unfavorable; I look at it as constructive. Either way this individual knows where he could be and where he wants to take it. After all it’s his life.
Marshall is aware we acquiesce and knows where he would have ½ way guys perform because he’s been there long before.
I’m the one that will be giving him most of the credit not himself, again isn’t that a little personal. Now back to the mechanics!
quote:“Yardbird how do you respond to the UMPs on another thread calling the motion illegal?”
I have answered this question before, these umpires should call the rules evenly for everybody or they will open up a can of worms that even Pandora would be proud of!
First the answer is yes, Marshall pitchers are breaking the rules by leaving the pitchers plate before the ball is released in the same way ALL traditional pitchers break this same rule by leaving the pitchers plate before release. If you have access to High speed video or film you will discover that traditional pitchers are between 6 to 18 inches off of the plate and Marshall pitchers are between 6 to 48 inches off of the plate. If you were to enforce the rule with traditional pitchers they would be so disconnected and anchored down it would cause insurmountable problems. Please don’t go there!
quote:“The movement that starts forward before contacting the rubber is illegal.”
Not sure what you mean here?
The movement that starts forward in the wind up position is always connected to the pitchers plate with a Marshall delivery, what video are you speaking of?
.quote:“That is why pitchers toe the rubber and rock back and load before going forward”
The only reason they do this like described is because they were taught to do it and has no rule correlation other than it is legal just like Marshall’s full version start.
quote:“That of course means that the hand goes backwards before driving forward”
You have lost me here, what is illegal?
quote:”One day a few years ago my wife came running up to me with a Marshall add”
Marshall does not do ads, they cost a fortune, maybe it was someone else’s ad maybe a radio broadcast ad, the only information you could get from him prior to his internet start was if you wrote him or you heard him interviewing on the radio?
Marshall is not selling anything, it’s all free, and why would he buy ad space for a non-profit service? All you need to do is Google him. He does not seek the people who show up at his door, they are coming to him for new yard life.
quote:“She said this guy has discovered the secret to pitching at 100mph without injury”
It’s amazing how intuitive and protective Women are. Marshall says women will be the ones that will get the most movement in regards to this implementation with some.
quote:“I laughed at her and said I had received emails from this guy after answering one of his adds. I won't say what I said next.”
What ads? It’s good to see you fess up here, good for you! You should see Marshall do subtraction. Now back to mechanics?
Southpaw_dad.
Thanks for the ideas! I will go over them several times to glean the gems.
Getting a quality response is not rare here in the general post section but has a tendency to wane here in the learning pitching skills section. I believe we would all learn more if people would tell us what they believe in rather than what some body else does, they always get it wrong.
quote:” First, recognize that you are passionately advocating a school of thought and training that is considered by the vast majority of the baseball world as being on the very fringe”
Yes this recognition came at the turn of the century when the information was disseminated via the Internet. Things have to start somewhere.
quote:“even after 20+ years of being around.”
It’s only been 9 years for the public and a couple of years before that with very few.
Marshall did not self publish his information before 2000.
quote:“If people were going to flock to it, they would have started flocking by now.”
Can you name another instructor other than Marshall and Yardbird whom is teaching this material and Marshall does not work with youth.
quote:” People are best persuaded by a growing body of evidence of success, not long, technical discussions of complex theories that are foreign to them, laced with jargon with which they are unfamiliar. If you can’t keep it simple, you can’t sell it.”
The information will only be useful to those who wish to participate, all others may do what they wish, I will not ruin other threads that need to explain their beliefs although
Since all others are proprietary I believe much information is left out here and many other
Sites. Not so with Marshall.
quote:” e-Mail (which this essentially is) is a horrible communications medium for complex discussions, let alone debates. The medium itself tends to suppress understanding, and magnify negative emotions. Also, blunt language & incendiary comments are easily magnified out of proportion in this medium, and inspire those who disagree to become more fixed in their position, and potentially more disagreeable.”
Are you calling this message board e-mail? I do not e-mail as a mass information spreader If you are talking about Marshall’s site? This would be his decision. I don’t think any of this should hinder a discussion on human motor performance! If you are talking this style of message board , I see what you mean.
quote:”When one reads comments that smack of paranoia, or a conspiracy to suppress the “truth”
Do you deny this ever happens? I would agree here if it were actually paranoia and not just fanciful name-calling.
quote:“the writer comes off as someone who is wearing a purple smock, black Nikes, and drinking grape Kool-Aid.”
I do not think this way, this may be my undoing! I will suppress this information in the future, if I recognize it, do paranoi’ic people recognize their paranoia?
quote:“As a reader who likes to give all the benefit of the doubt, let me tell you in all honesty that many of your posts that I have read over the last year have left me with this image.”
I assure you my sneakers are white, I wear a blue jacket and I prefer Cherry Kool Aid.
If it was grape it would be called grape drink according to Dave Chapelle.
I have no reason to lie here, I’m on record for what I say, If I say Marshall’s full mechanic looks repugnant and that is an arrow in it’s back I mean it!
quote:” Remember: A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. You’re working way too hard trying to sell your ideas.”
This is one of those gems, thanx!
quote:”Suggestion: You clearly believe in the teachings of Dr. Marshall. Mr. Marshall has a pitching school, newsletters, and other ways of spreading the word.”
Marshall has shut down his pitching research center to the public except for visitors and has only diseminated material via mail and his web page.
This is way to important to me for youth pitchers here, I think a thread designed for how to information should be left to its own merits and if people wish to read it and benefit from the truth can do so from someone who has repeated these successes.
quote:“I would suggest that you simply tell folks that you, and many you have trained, have found value in the Mike Marshall approach. Suggest that they check it out for themselves.”
I have tried this approach many times and it always starts a fire where false claims are then spread. This is my big sticking point; I must get over this, should I just ignore them? and just keep posting positively?
quote:“You might even give them a website or phone number to help them find their way. Then leave it at that.”
I have done this also, same result.
quote:”If they ask why you believe in this approach, you can speak briefly about results realized, and send them off to do their own investigation. This way, they own the research, and they are more likely to buy what you are trying so hard to get them to see.”
This may ultimately be the best approach? Gem!
quote:”Don’t try to teach via e-mail. It is extremely difficult to do effectively, even when you have a motivated learner, and a common jargon and starting point for the discussion.”
I don’t know about this? I have learned more from Marshall’s personal published e-mails than anywhere except his free e-books.
quote:“Adhere to these thoughts and you will typically garner more respect”
I am not looking for personal respect, just civil discourse and eliminating youth throwing injuries and could care less about Pro’s.
quote:“I may be way off base here, but I don’t think the approach you have been following is achieving the desired end. I sincerely hope that something in these thoughts proves to be helpful.”
You have been honest and respectful and I did learn, hey you were right!
cap_n,
quote:“I wouldn't know. I have yet to see any credible video illustrating any baseball pitcher using the preferred Dr. M. mechanics at any high level MLB game showing superior velocity and control.”
I thaught this was High School Baseball Web? I guess were mid level?
quote:“exactly like baseballs??? A 15% increase in weight (especially at this level) is not exactly like anything.”
You would think throwing an object that weighs slightly more as with Cricket players
do would tend to make them throw slower which is not the case. This evidence shows
That throwing of off center mass garners you great velocity! I was giving baseballs the fudgement.
quote:”I'm all in favor of closing this thread.....can I get a second on this motion?”
See!!!!!! Cap_n has left the house.
MTS,
quote:“Many pitchers have a few of the tenets Marshall wants.”
Yes, Juan Marichal, Maddux, Lincecum but their rating is right on the edge of not being enough plus they have to deal with their useless leg lift and lengthy glove side leg drive.
If your rating falls below a 300 you are susceptible. I cringe when the guys who are down in the 000 and 200 range.
quote:“That is because these are tenets that many traditional pitchers already have.”
Yes, this is why they have them.
quote:“Just because Marshall call those his doesn't make it so.”
You do not understand this point, everybody has their tenets or they don’t look at it this way! Again what are you’re tenets? I have mine. I know asking you questions will not
get any reply but I will keep trying.
quote:“Your AFLAC pitcher was a traditional pitcher.”
I’m beginning to believe you may understand the general sense involved in pronated drives and releases plus the in line nature of these mechanics but do not think you understand how the critical arm turn over is different at initial force application.
This timing is where the injurious drive components are overcome!
quote:“I could see Marshall making unfavorable criticism of your pitcher's mechanics”
I do not look at it as unfavorable; I look at it as constructive. Either way this individual knows where he could be and where he wants to take it. After all it’s his life.
Marshall is aware we acquiesce and knows where he would have ½ way guys perform because he’s been there long before.
quote:“unless he makes it to the MLB, at which point Marshall will take full credit.”
I’m the one that will be giving him most of the credit not himself, again isn’t that a little personal. Now back to the mechanics!
quote:cap_n, quote:“I wouldn't know. I have yet to see any credible video illustrating any baseball pitcher using the preferred Dr. M. mechanics at any high level MLB game showing superior velocity and control.” I thaught this was High School Baseball Web? I guess were mid level. quote: “exactly like baseballs??? A 15% increase in weight (especially at this level) is not exactly like anything.”
You would think throwing an object that weighs slightly more as with Cricket players do would tend to make them throw slower which is not the case. This evidence shows That throwing of off center mass garners you great velocity! I was giving aseballs the fudgement. quote: ”I'm all in favor of closing this thread.....can I get a second on this motion?” See!!!!!! Cap_n has left the house.
On the contrary....I'm here and read every day. I'd like to lock any thread that involves Dr. M. until there has been credible video posted of his preferred mechanics....and I say credible because no one has taken the time to post (that I know of) any of his students in any highly competitive game....front, side, back....set in gif or mov or even unedited, uncompressed avi so we can set it to 60 fps....clean and clear video. 5 sec clips each are all that's need. From all of information that's been presented, you and the like are pushing a modified bowlers technique, except you can't run and throw. And yes, if you search enough, you will see some bowlers in world cup play bending their elbows to some degree as well as using a pronounced pronation.
Show the members here current, high level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted.
The highest playing level of any current Marshall trained pitcher is in college, at UIW. So far he has not pitched well at all, but the year is still young.
What suprises me is his complaints of arm fatigue 2.1 innings into the season.
This is from Marshalls Q/A
"I felt fatigue in my arm during this 4th inning today. I tried my hardest to work through it."
What suprises me is his complaints of arm fatigue 2.1 innings into the season.
This is from Marshalls Q/A
"I felt fatigue in my arm during this 4th inning today. I tried my hardest to work through it."
I know better than you realize. I saw a Marshall pitcher with a team from Washington in Arizona last summer. He was definitely a Marshall pitcher. He looked almost like a shot putter and was grunting with every pitch and he had a small stride similar to when Sparks had thrown in the MLB. My son's team got to him hard in the 3rd inning. That kid was throwing in the high 70's and might have reached 80. A lot of pitchers in this tournament were in the mid to high 80's with some throwing 90MPH. My son's arm does not come across his body like your pitcher does. A former minor league pitcher and I taught him this over 9 years ago.
They're awesome throwing against tarps.quote:I say credible because no one has taken the time to post (that I know of) any of his students in any highly competitive game
RJM-
I know its hard to resist , but as long as we continue to make jabs, the empty rhetoric will continue. I'd like to see the tone turn to credible video.
Thanks,
deemax-
thanks!
I know its hard to resist
, but as long as we continue to make jabs, the empty rhetoric will continue. I'd like to see the tone turn to credible video.Thanks,
deemax-
thanks!
Cap_n,
Is back in the house.
Now you have it, although you will never probably see the full 1000 rated pitcher ever. the Video I have posted is a high level 13-year-old club game where the Marshall pitcher is actually playing up whom is 12 getting low 70’s velosity with incredible movement. This pitcher will be trying out as a HS freshman next year as an early 14 year old. Again, HS baseball web is about this age group and the kids preparing for it. I think we are in the right place whether you want to shut down this thread or not.
Here is a closer look, he is still refining himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page
You’re not going to call this technique baseball or bump Bowling are you?; please don’t go there, we are having enough trouble with acceptance already! We are Americans and this Marshall thing is an all American tale.
Is that so? That’s interesting. I’m going to have to pay more attention to this in the future.
If they get some bend inwards with the elbow (inside of vertical) it makes them very close to Marshall’s theories or visa versa.
I’m hoping Deemax will video Mike f.. When he sees him, there is video of Mike pitching in last year’s high mid level NBC College summer league.
Resist be not. Be true to your personality for all to see.
We will remain typical, are you one of the we?
Calling what I have written and shown rhetoric is easy for you to say but I have repeated Marshalls theories with youth now and it has turned out to be better in all forms and outcomes that leeds to rhetoric reversal.
The tone is not coming from video producers side, I have also already brought to you at the highest level for that age group and would be bringing you more if they were allowed to perform the way they wish starting in High school, this is not the case. You can keep asking for higher and higher level video all you want to justify your curiosity but until somebody other than coach Maley allows it to go forward you will not be able to see it. Right now you have a library of one video and only a few actually performing full MM at the College level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...l63A&feature=related
I have many current D1 level pitchers whom can perform Full Marshall mechanics
But choose to acquiesce at this time in baseballs evolvement do to non-acceptance!
If one of these kids makes it all the way through to the MLB and then establishes themselves with many good years only then maybe they could bring their Crow-step game with out fear of or reprisal and even that is a big maybe. Knowing (the outside and the inside ball drive game) both really helps these pitchers understand what they can do.
I believe this information is 30 years ahead of its ability to be absorbed and implemented.
Yet it is so simple in comparison to the balance position traditional motion.
Deemax
Looks like there are many ahead of him in seniority and rank, does’nt look good for you seeing him Dee?
What’s this kids eligibility? Is he a freshman? Bring your camera?
What was Marshalls answer to this problem?
I love this complete transparency out of Marshall’s personal published e-mails with this kid, going over each pitch and situation discomfort reports every thing. The pitch sequencing and suggestions, are great stuff. I wish coach Maley would communicate with Marshall, that I would pay to hear!
Muscle energy allocation issues even affect Marshall pitchers, yep
I’ll bet he had pizza and a sodi for lunch!
MTS
This is why I like you M, I do realize you know some of this Marshall stuff?
Can your son throw a pronated driven and released Cutter, Slider or curve?
Lets see a Video of your pride so then he can become our pride.
My bet is he has a pretty good rating because you are a concerned father.
Are you sure he was a Marshall pitcher? There are a lot of non-traditional motions that people have developed with out having been aware of Marshall!
Saying you saw a Marshall pitcher then saying, “He was definitely a Marshall pitcher.”
Makes me believe you did not interview the kid and were actually questioning your belief? This takes us back to what you realize? People are aped to make mistakes in judgment when their has been no physical involvement with the subject.
Ya, that’s not a Marshall guy, Marshall guys powerfully drive the ball inside of vertical
Pronating their drive culminating in a powerful pronation snap at the hand and fingers! You should hear it with the fast twitchers standing next to it, not quite a put.
Remember that, some of those strike outs in the show were so impressive with his half a Full Marshall game, the look on some of those MLB batters faces and the reactions were priceless. Many were “Kruk Struck”.
I’ll bet if he was given some Marshall stuff he would stop putting and his fsatball would gain 15%.
Is back in the house.
quote:“I'd like to lock any thread that involves Dr. M. until there has been credible video posted of his preferred mechanics”
Now you have it, although you will never probably see the full 1000 rated pitcher ever. the Video I have posted is a high level 13-year-old club game where the Marshall pitcher is actually playing up whom is 12 getting low 70’s velosity with incredible movement. This pitcher will be trying out as a HS freshman next year as an early 14 year old. Again, HS baseball web is about this age group and the kids preparing for it. I think we are in the right place whether you want to shut down this thread or not.
Here is a closer look, he is still refining himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page
quote:“From all of information that's been presented, you and the like are pushing a modified bowlers technique,”
You’re not going to call this technique baseball or bump Bowling are you?; please don’t go there, we are having enough trouble with acceptance already! We are Americans and this Marshall thing is an all American tale.
quote:“except you can't run and throw. And yes, if you search enough, you will see some bowlers in world cup play bending their elbows to some degree as well as using a pronounced pronation.”
Is that so? That’s interesting. I’m going to have to pay more attention to this in the future.
If they get some bend inwards with the elbow (inside of vertical) it makes them very close to Marshall’s theories or visa versa.
quote:”Show the members here current, high level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted.”
I’m hoping Deemax will video Mike f.. When he sees him, there is video of Mike pitching in last year’s high mid level NBC College summer league.
quote:“I know its hard to resist”
Resist be not. Be true to your personality for all to see.
quote:“but as long as we continue to make jabs”
We will remain typical, are you one of the we?
quote:“the empty rhetoric will continue.”
Calling what I have written and shown rhetoric is easy for you to say but I have repeated Marshalls theories with youth now and it has turned out to be better in all forms and outcomes that leeds to rhetoric reversal.
quote:“I'd like to see the tone turn to credible video.”
The tone is not coming from video producers side, I have also already brought to you at the highest level for that age group and would be bringing you more if they were allowed to perform the way they wish starting in High school, this is not the case. You can keep asking for higher and higher level video all you want to justify your curiosity but until somebody other than coach Maley allows it to go forward you will not be able to see it. Right now you have a library of one video and only a few actually performing full MM at the College level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...l63A&feature=related
I have many current D1 level pitchers whom can perform Full Marshall mechanics
But choose to acquiesce at this time in baseballs evolvement do to non-acceptance!
If one of these kids makes it all the way through to the MLB and then establishes themselves with many good years only then maybe they could bring their Crow-step game with out fear of or reprisal and even that is a big maybe. Knowing (the outside and the inside ball drive game) both really helps these pitchers understand what they can do.
I believe this information is 30 years ahead of its ability to be absorbed and implemented.
Yet it is so simple in comparison to the balance position traditional motion.
Deemax
quote:“The highest level current Marshall trained pitcher is in college here in Texas at UIW. So far he has not pitched well at all, but the year is still young.”
Looks like there are many ahead of him in seniority and rank, does’nt look good for you seeing him Dee?
What’s this kids eligibility? Is he a freshman? Bring your camera?
quote:”What surprises me is his complaints of arm fatigue 2.1 innings into the season.”
”This is from Marshall’s Q/A
"I felt fatigue in my arm during this 4th inning today. I tried my hardest to work through it."
What was Marshalls answer to this problem?
I love this complete transparency out of Marshall’s personal published e-mails with this kid, going over each pitch and situation discomfort reports every thing. The pitch sequencing and suggestions, are great stuff. I wish coach Maley would communicate with Marshall, that I would pay to hear!
Muscle energy allocation issues even affect Marshall pitchers, yep
I’ll bet he had pizza and a sodi for lunch!
MTS
quote:“I know better than you realize”
This is why I like you M, I do realize you know some of this Marshall stuff?
Can your son throw a pronated driven and released Cutter, Slider or curve?
Lets see a Video of your pride so then he can become our pride.
My bet is he has a pretty good rating because you are a concerned father.
quote:“ I saw a Marshall pitcher”
Are you sure he was a Marshall pitcher? There are a lot of non-traditional motions that people have developed with out having been aware of Marshall!
Saying you saw a Marshall pitcher then saying, “He was definitely a Marshall pitcher.”
Makes me believe you did not interview the kid and were actually questioning your belief? This takes us back to what you realize? People are aped to make mistakes in judgment when their has been no physical involvement with the subject.
quote:He looked almost like a shot putter
Ya, that’s not a Marshall guy, Marshall guys powerfully drive the ball inside of vertical
Pronating their drive culminating in a powerful pronation snap at the hand and fingers! You should hear it with the fast twitchers standing next to it, not quite a put.
quote:“similar to when Sparks had thrown in the MLB.”
Remember that, some of those strike outs in the show were so impressive with his half a Full Marshall game, the look on some of those MLB batters faces and the reactions were priceless. Many were “Kruk Struck”.
quote:“My son's team got to him hard in the 3rd inning. That kid was throwing in the high 70's and might have reached 80.”
I’ll bet if he was given some Marshall stuff he would stop putting and his fsatball would gain 15%.
Yardbird-
Like I said....take some time and present us with usable video.....youtube is a very poor way to present. Everyone enjoys the way others and I have presented in the past. Heck, the internet is full of our usable clips, but youtube and the like sucks.
And I used "we" because I chose to let the statement stay, so I take responsibility as well.
Show me ADULT high level MM pitching in a usable format.
Will someone tell me who yardbird is?
Like I said....take some time and present us with usable video.....youtube is a very poor way to present. Everyone enjoys the way others and I have presented in the past. Heck, the internet is full of our usable clips, but youtube and the like sucks.
And I used "we" because I chose to let the statement stay, so I take responsibility as well.
This site is also about youth (and adults) learning to transfer what the pro level is doing down to the youth level.....quote:Now you have it, although you will never probably see the full 1000 rated pitcher ever. the Video I have posted is a high level 13-year-old club game where the Marshall pitcher is actually playing up whom is 12 getting low 70’s velosity with incredible movement. This pitcher will be trying out as a HS freshman next year as an early 14 year old. Again, HS baseball web is about this age group and the kids preparing for it. I think we are in the right place whether you want to shut down this thread or not.
Here is a closer look, he is still refining himself.
Show me ADULT high level MM pitching in a usable format.
Will someone tell me who yardbird is?
I've been seeing the same rhetoric for several years on boards. I can provide the answer before the Marshallite responds. It's always the same canned response.quote:I know its hard to resist , but as long as we continue to make jabs, the empty rhetoric will continue. I'd like to see the tone turn to credible video.
I'm speaking the truth. These guys don't often pitch in games. They spend their life throwing at tarps.
Cap_n
Usable for what? I seem to have no trouble seeing enough information to prove my points to a good enough degree Everybody was just asking for any video of play, I gave them two game videos, I have many more. Do you understand what you have seen so far?
Does not this pitcher Crow-step his wind up, Pronate his drive and releases?
Stay on his driveline with his hip, shoulder and arms then rotate all of it 175 degrees. I believe everybody including you did not think it was happening at any level, now you have seen that it is, you have also witnessed an adult competing with the same basic motion. Do you think there will not be more? I believe this 60 frm.a second video is available to download at U-tube to do with what you please. I have done the work and have attained 10 years worth of results. I’m here to talk about it. Since I have been here I have only witnessed barriers by most to get around and not much constructive discourse yet.
This is not my opinion; I believe posting it on U-tube will reach the highest number of
curious people, they also can download it for their own viewing or manipulation pleasure including you. They offer viewing of the newer High speed video formats and high definition that are technically way more advanced than Int.friendly GIF’s You are asking me to reduce already grainy low frm rate size footage to a GIF and post it here, that you think it is going to give you better perspective? It does not work that way. Case in point?
Go over to Baseball-Fever where most Marshall practitioners are banned and look at what Chris O’leary did to some great High speed video taken from U-tube of “amazing”. He’s trying to make a point about the pronated curve by showing a blurry pixilated GIF that you cant even make out the hand or fingers or ball or forearm. This is what you want me to do? I have already stated that for mechanical purposes only high-speed clear frame rate Slo-mo like the Clemens footage from Myth busters at U-tube is adequate. Let’s do a test, download the Clemens footage and convert it to a GIF and show us how you improve on this sucky U-tube product. Or since I do not know how to, go get O’learys Gif. and put it on here then we can compare and see what is better?
So you are saying if I do not keep up with your unknown to me standard of posting excellence that then what I do post has no validity? I think the viewers that I posted the clips for got what they asked for in the U-tube video.
Yet you went over to U-tube and gleaned all the information you could cipher from my offering. There is plenty of High-speed video of Marshall guys available, adult and youth, even some from ASMI. I don’t see much traditional pitching motion high-speed footage anywhere and none from ASMI but there might be some and there will be a lot more in the future with the cost of the CMOS technology coming down. Then you will be able to see what Marshall has been seeing for 40 years.
We sounds like non-responsibility to me?
Warning!!!, doing this in regards to pitching is a recipe for disaster and has already proven out to be so at every level. Anecdotal observance (Noley did it that way so it must be right) is the worst way to build dangerous ballistic athletic activity, it is not scientifically based. Just think, all the other baseball institutions have had their chance to get it right now for the last 30 years using this very method and have failed miserably as witnessed by the increase in surgeries. I think some changes in the way we think are now in order.
You will need to fulfill this request not me, I could care less about adults and pro’s
I have no trouble what so ever talking mechanics with out any video but will accommodate where I can being a rank novice at d.video manipulation.
Do most people always turn to the personal card when they have little to say about mechanics?
I was hoping that this would also pertain to the we?
It is disconcerting to actually have a monitorator take a negative stance towards some human motor movement discussion that he wants shut down by a single second motion.
Wouldn’t you agree? I’m sorry that you have to come in here and read this stuff just to monitor it but you have taken this on as duty, you could recuse yourself and hand off
to another guy (like coach B25 or anybody not vexed by mechanics) so that any bias from the past does not filter in here.
RJM,
Isn’t it nice to have actual results now from someone so that all the rhetoric means something now, I wish I was aware of the past message board controversies so that I could have had a chance to positively respond with the performed results back then.
Why is your response always so negative and anti informational?
My clients have 1,000’s of innings in the last ten years completed with many post season awards for excellence received from all High school and College levels. all of them have the minimal tenets to survive or more. You may use the word truth when talking about the full motion because nobody will hand them the ball.
I have never seen anybody connected with Marshall or Marshall himself ever use a tarp to throw into as a barrier target. I don’t imagine a tarp would last very long being pummeled with a highly ballistic object, nor can you shoot video through it.
When we train we throw into 48 gage nets with a target in white rope weaved through.
When they get close to spring or compete they use a catcher.
wvmtner,
Are you getting the picture here?
Now, back to mechanics!
quote:“Like I said....take some time and present us with usable video.”
Usable for what? I seem to have no trouble seeing enough information to prove my points to a good enough degree Everybody was just asking for any video of play, I gave them two game videos, I have many more. Do you understand what you have seen so far?
Does not this pitcher Crow-step his wind up, Pronate his drive and releases?
Stay on his driveline with his hip, shoulder and arms then rotate all of it 175 degrees. I believe everybody including you did not think it was happening at any level, now you have seen that it is, you have also witnessed an adult competing with the same basic motion. Do you think there will not be more? I believe this 60 frm.a second video is available to download at U-tube to do with what you please. I have done the work and have attained 10 years worth of results. I’m here to talk about it. Since I have been here I have only witnessed barriers by most to get around and not much constructive discourse yet.
quote:“youtube is a very poor way to present”
This is not my opinion; I believe posting it on U-tube will reach the highest number of
curious people, they also can download it for their own viewing or manipulation pleasure including you. They offer viewing of the newer High speed video formats and high definition that are technically way more advanced than Int.friendly GIF’s You are asking me to reduce already grainy low frm rate size footage to a GIF and post it here, that you think it is going to give you better perspective? It does not work that way. Case in point?
Go over to Baseball-Fever where most Marshall practitioners are banned and look at what Chris O’leary did to some great High speed video taken from U-tube of “amazing”. He’s trying to make a point about the pronated curve by showing a blurry pixilated GIF that you cant even make out the hand or fingers or ball or forearm. This is what you want me to do? I have already stated that for mechanical purposes only high-speed clear frame rate Slo-mo like the Clemens footage from Myth busters at U-tube is adequate. Let’s do a test, download the Clemens footage and convert it to a GIF and show us how you improve on this sucky U-tube product. Or since I do not know how to, go get O’learys Gif. and put it on here then we can compare and see what is better?
quote:“Everyone enjoys the way others and I have presented in the past.”
So you are saying if I do not keep up with your unknown to me standard of posting excellence that then what I do post has no validity? I think the viewers that I posted the clips for got what they asked for in the U-tube video.
quote:“Heck, the Internet is full of our usable clips, but youtube and the like sucks”
Yet you went over to U-tube and gleaned all the information you could cipher from my offering. There is plenty of High-speed video of Marshall guys available, adult and youth, even some from ASMI. I don’t see much traditional pitching motion high-speed footage anywhere and none from ASMI but there might be some and there will be a lot more in the future with the cost of the CMOS technology coming down. Then you will be able to see what Marshall has been seeing for 40 years.
quote:”And I used "we" because I chose to let the statement stay, so I take responsibility as well.”
We sounds like non-responsibility to me?
quote:“This site is also about youth (and adults) learning to transfer what the pro level is doing down to the youth level.”
Warning!!!, doing this in regards to pitching is a recipe for disaster and has already proven out to be so at every level. Anecdotal observance (Noley did it that way so it must be right) is the worst way to build dangerous ballistic athletic activity, it is not scientifically based. Just think, all the other baseball institutions have had their chance to get it right now for the last 30 years using this very method and have failed miserably as witnessed by the increase in surgeries. I think some changes in the way we think are now in order.
quote:“Show me ADULT high level MM pitching in a usable format.”
You will need to fulfill this request not me, I could care less about adults and pro’s
I have no trouble what so ever talking mechanics with out any video but will accommodate where I can being a rank novice at d.video manipulation.
quote:”Will someone tell me who yardbird is?”
Do most people always turn to the personal card when they have little to say about mechanics?
quote:“My job/duty is to monitor this forum. All postings with personal accusations will be deleted ASAP.”
I was hoping that this would also pertain to the we?
It is disconcerting to actually have a monitorator take a negative stance towards some human motor movement discussion that he wants shut down by a single second motion.
Wouldn’t you agree? I’m sorry that you have to come in here and read this stuff just to monitor it but you have taken this on as duty, you could recuse yourself and hand off
to another guy (like coach B25 or anybody not vexed by mechanics) so that any bias from the past does not filter in here.
RJM,
quote:“I've been seeing the same rhetoric for several years on boards.”
Isn’t it nice to have actual results now from someone so that all the rhetoric means something now, I wish I was aware of the past message board controversies so that I could have had a chance to positively respond with the performed results back then.
quote:“I can provide the answer before the Marshallite responds. It's always the same canned response.”
Why is your response always so negative and anti informational?
quote:”I'm speaking the truth. These guys don't often pitch in games.”
My clients have 1,000’s of innings in the last ten years completed with many post season awards for excellence received from all High school and College levels. all of them have the minimal tenets to survive or more. You may use the word truth when talking about the full motion because nobody will hand them the ball.
quote:“They spend their life throwing at tarps.”
I have never seen anybody connected with Marshall or Marshall himself ever use a tarp to throw into as a barrier target. I don’t imagine a tarp would last very long being pummeled with a highly ballistic object, nor can you shoot video through it.
When we train we throw into 48 gage nets with a target in white rope weaved through.
When they get close to spring or compete they use a catcher.
wvmtner,
Are you getting the picture here?
Now, back to mechanics!
Hey Yardbird,
Maybe you could get that Billy Mays guy to do a Marshall Mechanics infomercial on cable at 3AM. You could even include the Marshall Batting System(probably where you swing behind your back) free to the 1st 100 customers.
Otherwise, your valuable insight is wasted here, as most of these folks seem to disagree, even resorting to common sense at times. Trust me, call Billy. 48 gage nets, you crack me up.
Maybe you could get that Billy Mays guy to do a Marshall Mechanics infomercial on cable at 3AM. You could even include the Marshall Batting System(probably where you swing behind your back) free to the 1st 100 customers.
Otherwise, your valuable insight is wasted here, as most of these folks seem to disagree, even resorting to common sense at times. Trust me, call Billy. 48 gage nets, you crack me up.
I've seen plenty of kids get through high school ball with bad mechanics. For which D1 programs are your pitchers playing?quote:My clients have 1,000’s of innings in the last ten years completed with many post season awards for excellence received from all High school and College levels.
BWA-A-A-A-A-A-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!quote:quote:
“This site is also about youth (and adults) learning to transfer what the pro level is doing down to the youth level.”
Warning!!!, doing this in regards to pitching is a recipe for disaster and has already proven out to be so at every level.
You can try to redirect the focus all you want.....the bottom line is, you have yet to provide any video of a successful, high velocity MLB pitcher in a MLB game using the Dr. M way. I'll even settle for a consistent D1, D2, or D3 pitcher with the same requirements.
They had 1 make it to D-1 but he suffered from eras disease: Too many earned runs. He does not appear to be on the staff for now, but may be on the bench.
eras disease!quote:Originally posted by MTS:
They had 1 make it to D-1 but he suffered from eras disease: Too many earned runs. He does not appear to be on the staff for now, but may be on the bench.
Is one of the symptoms the pitcher getting lit up?
all322,
Well, sham wow me down , looks like he sold you that “Quick Chop” food processor. Is he any relation to Willie?, that’s closer to the swing I teach!
The MBS is small ball for high run production (wins more games), I like the power batting game that does not win as many games.
Apparently it is only safe to enter if you can tolerate the wasted effort?
I have not taken a count but I can see I’m way behind but I’m a strong finisher and hope to prevail with in about 8 more innings and am prepared to go extra innings until the sun goes down!!!! What would you say is the exact count after reading all that? I at least get the first guy and maybe 2 more that have fed back intelligent banter? I actually have not seen anybody disagree yet with a mechanical point and the only disagreements are with personal information that the others do not have so they guess and then state it as fact.
This common sense you speak of does have history and I think science has won out with most of these scenarios.
What is life worth if I do not leave all322 smiling when he exits.
RJM,
Me to, Seems to be most all of them at this point? It depends on how you define bad mechanics; I define them in this way.
If you have mechanics that produce injurious effects they are bad.
You guys keep asking the same questions that I have answered before. Go back and dig out the answer. Hear I’ll give you a different answer that has nothing to do with mechanics. You can’t ask me to give you proof of a past statement, then I give it to you, then you say that’s not proof, Then ask me to prove something else that you will just deny anyways, you had your chance to be fair about it now you can just look for them. Because you are here listening to what these mechanics are all about and can recognize them now, maybe? What does any of that personal stuff have to do with mechanics? You keep shoveling Humma Dumma in front of me and all the snow blowers are up north.
Now, back to mechanics!
Cap_n,
I have been emodiconized by the wave! Can I use you’re BWAhaha in the future that’s a good one ROTG.
No mechanics again, I’m disappointed.
I’m trying to talk youth pitching mechanics here; I have no lack of focus. I have answered everybody’s off track questions yet get few answers to legitimate questions in return.
This endless personal affront to Marshall thru me is fruitless and tends to make the thread unpleasurable; this is not my goal but seems to be yours. Why do you not start your own thread (why I hate Dr.Marshall) where you can personally attack Marshall, I promise to stay out and not ruin or change its direction.
This is not my job or quest and your request has no purpose. There is plenty of video available, have you searched yet? Let me help, go to DrMikeMarshall.com and you will see television video of two of them in action, I think both hold Major league records and one has many of these records still.
These are armatures and if they wish to post they will, If not they will not. I will let all of them know of you’re request.
Are you punting in regards to the Gif question? Maybe you do not know how to capture U-tube video yet? You can capture video at Marshall’s if you want, I can’t do any of this with this Pentium II of mine I’d be here all day. I sure wish this thing would die!
MTS,
Can you name this phantom and the school? How does a pitcher make it to D1? Is he still a freshman?
Too many tall tales! You have already been exposed for this same informational infraction using your own words now you are coming back with more of the same? What is it about his mechanics that makes you believe he is a Marshall trained athlete?
Post a video of him and I will tell you if he is even close?
quote:“Maybe you could get that Billy Mays guy”
Well, sham wow me down , looks like he sold you that “Quick Chop” food processor. Is he any relation to Willie?, that’s closer to the swing I teach!
The MBS is small ball for high run production (wins more games), I like the power batting game that does not win as many games.
quote:”Otherwise, your valuable insight is wasted here”
Apparently it is only safe to enter if you can tolerate the wasted effort?
quote:“as most of these folks seem to disagree”
I have not taken a count but I can see I’m way behind but I’m a strong finisher and hope to prevail with in about 8 more innings and am prepared to go extra innings until the sun goes down!!!! What would you say is the exact count after reading all that? I at least get the first guy and maybe 2 more that have fed back intelligent banter? I actually have not seen anybody disagree yet with a mechanical point and the only disagreements are with personal information that the others do not have so they guess and then state it as fact.
quote:“even resorting to common sense at times”
This common sense you speak of does have history and I think science has won out with most of these scenarios.
quote:“you crack me up”
What is life worth if I do not leave all322 smiling when he exits.
RJM,
quote:“I've seen plenty of kids get through high school ball with bad mechanics.”
Me to, Seems to be most all of them at this point? It depends on how you define bad mechanics; I define them in this way.
If you have mechanics that produce injurious effects they are bad.
quote:“For which D1 programs are your pitchers playing?”
You guys keep asking the same questions that I have answered before. Go back and dig out the answer. Hear I’ll give you a different answer that has nothing to do with mechanics. You can’t ask me to give you proof of a past statement, then I give it to you, then you say that’s not proof, Then ask me to prove something else that you will just deny anyways, you had your chance to be fair about it now you can just look for them. Because you are here listening to what these mechanics are all about and can recognize them now, maybe? What does any of that personal stuff have to do with mechanics? You keep shoveling Humma Dumma in front of me and all the snow blowers are up north.
Now, back to mechanics!
Cap_n,
I have been emodiconized by the wave! Can I use you’re BWAhaha in the future that’s a good one ROTG.
quote:“You can try to redirect the focus all you want”
No mechanics again, I’m disappointed.
I’m trying to talk youth pitching mechanics here; I have no lack of focus. I have answered everybody’s off track questions yet get few answers to legitimate questions in return.
This endless personal affront to Marshall thru me is fruitless and tends to make the thread unpleasurable; this is not my goal but seems to be yours. Why do you not start your own thread (why I hate Dr.Marshall) where you can personally attack Marshall, I promise to stay out and not ruin or change its direction.
quote:“the bottom line is, you have yet to provide any video of a successful, high velocity MLB pitcher in a MLB game using the Dr. M way.”
This is not my job or quest and your request has no purpose. There is plenty of video available, have you searched yet? Let me help, go to DrMikeMarshall.com and you will see television video of two of them in action, I think both hold Major league records and one has many of these records still.
quote:“I'll even settle for a consistent D1, D2, or D3 pitcher with the same requirements.”
These are armatures and if they wish to post they will, If not they will not. I will let all of them know of you’re request.
Are you punting in regards to the Gif question? Maybe you do not know how to capture U-tube video yet? You can capture video at Marshall’s if you want, I can’t do any of this with this Pentium II of mine I’d be here all day. I sure wish this thing would die!
MTS,
quote:“They had 1 make it to D-1 but he suffered from eras disease”
Can you name this phantom and the school? How does a pitcher make it to D1? Is he still a freshman?
quote:“Too many earned runs”
Too many tall tales! You have already been exposed for this same informational infraction using your own words now you are coming back with more of the same? What is it about his mechanics that makes you believe he is a Marshall trained athlete?
Post a video of him and I will tell you if he is even close?
I can, but I won't. I won't kick the kid while he is down. He is mixed Marshall. If he turns it around, I might then post his name. But I'm sure you guys will be hooting and hollering before I post his info.
Yardbird-
Show the members here current, pro level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted.
If you're unable to post a final, well tuned set of preferred pro level mechanics on this site, then this thread should be concluded. All of the back and forth rhetoric serves no useful purpose that this forum was set up for.
And if you already have this request in place somewhere else, then give me the URL so I can redirect, or post it yourself.
Changing the focus again? Maybe it's you that hates Dr. M.quote:This endless personal affront to Marshall thru me is fruitless and tends to make the thread unpleasurable; this is not my goal but seems to be yours. Why do you not start your own thread (why I hate Dr.Marshall) where you can personally attack Marshall, I promise to stay out and not ruin or change its direction.
Show the members here current, pro level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted.
If you're unable to post a final, well tuned set of preferred pro level mechanics on this site, then this thread should be concluded. All of the back and forth rhetoric serves no useful purpose that this forum was set up for.
And if you already have this request in place somewhere else, then give me the URL so I can redirect, or post it yourself.
quote:Originally posted by cap_n:
Yardbird-
Changing the focus again? Maybe it's you that hates Dr. M.
Show the members here current, pro level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted. If you're unable to post a final, well tuned set of preferred pro level mechanics on this site, then this thread should be concluded. All of the back and forth rhetoric serves no useful purpose that this forum was set up for.
And if you already have this request in place somewhere else, then give me the URL so I can redirect, or post it yourself.
It is all I have asked: Show me! He practically drools when he describes his pitchers' skills. The words mean nothing.
I saw a video of one of Marshall's pitchers make a bunch of old fat guys bail, swing and fall. Any guy that is going to bail on a <80mph breaking ball was a bench sitter in high school. Seems this same pitcher was lit up by Division 2 batters. Reality hurts.
MTS,
Yet, you expect me to. Your decision is the correct one.
Who are these “you guys” you speak of, I’m the only one here at HSBW that has any body playing at these high levels (HS & College) with mixed Marshall arts (?) and I have never divulged their names or schools because they are armatures.
I know? I keep imagining? if I only had this when I was playing, then the gulp.
Are you not happy for our success? These are good kids!
If they are used like this”I saw a video of one of Marshall's pitchers” but then do not produce it,“Show me!” then say I’m not producing it when I have done so?!“It is all I have asked”you still have not produced video of your two sons? your turn.
A “bunch of old fat guys” are not playing HS baseball we are coaching it!
I hope we get the same coverage when your kid fails, if this is even true.
Cap_n,
Boy, if anything you are persistent, I love the way you mention shutting down this thread, yet keep coming back to it out of curiosity or something?
Dang him for being right about all this!! I’ve now had to change my whole pedagogy because I dared to test it! What’s a guy supposed to do ignore the truthful results and go back to known injurious mechanics? I would not be able to sleep at night knowing the truth.
How can I do that if I do not have any? I’m telling you how to go about finding all these tenet call outs with in every pitcher, to find it.you need only evaluate all pitchers.
The pro level does not recognize even partial Marshall drivelines and Marshall’s drivelines are not even recognized or understood there so how could they be preferred?
Again this is changing as we speak, do you think were the only ones who have access
To this information and starting to take advantage of it?
Last I checked there was no preferred mechanics call out for this site. This category Skills and tips under Pitching and throwing is about just that, not your pre-conceived ideas for what it means.
What for, if you wish to conclude yourself go for it, nobody asked you to add in negatively, you just took it upon yourself. We have not even scratched the surface with this valuable information.
Are you the back or the forth?
The very useful purpose is to eliminate Pitching and Throwing injuries and giving the athlete a training program, pitch selection,,operating insructions specifically designed for it.
This forum was set up to help people with “skills and tips” and this is what I am trying to accomplish, it is you who is rocking the boat. Now you could pick the thread that touts your preferred mechanical practice method but every time somebody actually talks about mechanics they never do, you are just told how great things are and to go over to such and suches web site and buy their particular product. I hope this changes and everybody tells us what these coaches actually call for in their particular threads but I doubt it will happen.
What is your questions about these mechanics that you need a professional’s video to see in order to ask them? I have posted video of the mechanics that one kid possesses and has had success with who has sufficiant Marshall mechanics to dominate his level. His model depicts a closer version than any of the re-traditionally exposed like College and pro players whom have to tow the line and follow their new coaches changes or hit the road! Do you think the High school guys that leave me gain tenets or loose them?????
When we glean the good points and bad points of this video a lot can be learned by those who wish to learn, all others may pass at their own will.
For those that wish to participate lets talk mechanics! I’m done answering non-productive requests about personal things! If anybody has pertinent questions I will answer them honestly.
quote:“I can, but I won't.”
Yet, you expect me to. Your decision is the correct one.
quote:“But I'm sure you guys will be hooting and hollering before I post his info.”
Who are these “you guys” you speak of, I’m the only one here at HSBW that has any body playing at these high levels (HS & College) with mixed Marshall arts (?) and I have never divulged their names or schools because they are armatures.
quote:“He practically drools when he describes his pitchers' skills.”
I know? I keep imagining? if I only had this when I was playing, then the gulp.
Are you not happy for our success? These are good kids!
quote:“The words mean nothing.”
If they are used like this”I saw a video of one of Marshall's pitchers” but then do not produce it,“Show me!” then say I’m not producing it when I have done so?!“It is all I have asked”you still have not produced video of your two sons? your turn.
quote:“Any guy that is going to bail on a <80mph breaking ball was a bench sitter in high school”
A “bunch of old fat guys” are not playing HS baseball we are coaching it!
quote:“Seems this same pitcher was lit up by Division 2 batters. Reality hurts.”
I hope we get the same coverage when your kid fails, if this is even true.
Cap_n,
quote:“Changing the focus again?”
Boy, if anything you are persistent, I love the way you mention shutting down this thread, yet keep coming back to it out of curiosity or something?
quote:“Maybe it's you that hates Dr. M.”
Dang him for being right about all this!! I’ve now had to change my whole pedagogy because I dared to test it! What’s a guy supposed to do ignore the truthful results and go back to known injurious mechanics? I would not be able to sleep at night knowing the truth.
quote:”Show the members here current, pro level, game play video.....or send it to a moderator to be posted.”
How can I do that if I do not have any? I’m telling you how to go about finding all these tenet call outs with in every pitcher, to find it.you need only evaluate all pitchers.
quote:”If you're unable to post a final, well tuned set of preferred pro level mechanics”
The pro level does not recognize even partial Marshall drivelines and Marshall’s drivelines are not even recognized or understood there so how could they be preferred?
Again this is changing as we speak, do you think were the only ones who have access
To this information and starting to take advantage of it?
quote:“on this site”
Last I checked there was no preferred mechanics call out for this site. This category Skills and tips under Pitching and throwing is about just that, not your pre-conceived ideas for what it means.
quote:“then this thread should be concluded”
What for, if you wish to conclude yourself go for it, nobody asked you to add in negatively, you just took it upon yourself. We have not even scratched the surface with this valuable information.
quote:“All of the back and forth rhetoric”
Are you the back or the forth?
quote:“serves no useful purpose”
The very useful purpose is to eliminate Pitching and Throwing injuries and giving the athlete a training program, pitch selection,,operating insructions specifically designed for it.
quote:“that this forum was set up for”
This forum was set up to help people with “skills and tips” and this is what I am trying to accomplish, it is you who is rocking the boat. Now you could pick the thread that touts your preferred mechanical practice method but every time somebody actually talks about mechanics they never do, you are just told how great things are and to go over to such and suches web site and buy their particular product. I hope this changes and everybody tells us what these coaches actually call for in their particular threads but I doubt it will happen.
quote:”And if you already have this request in place somewhere else, then give me the URL so I can redirect, or post it yourself.”
What is your questions about these mechanics that you need a professional’s video to see in order to ask them? I have posted video of the mechanics that one kid possesses and has had success with who has sufficiant Marshall mechanics to dominate his level. His model depicts a closer version than any of the re-traditionally exposed like College and pro players whom have to tow the line and follow their new coaches changes or hit the road! Do you think the High school guys that leave me gain tenets or loose them?????
When we glean the good points and bad points of this video a lot can be learned by those who wish to learn, all others may pass at their own will.
For those that wish to participate lets talk mechanics! I’m done answering non-productive requests about personal things! If anybody has pertinent questions I will answer them honestly.
Yes, I do expect you to show the wonderful pitching abilities that you boast of. Why would I expect you to show someone that is having difficulties? If that mixed Marshall pitcher gets another chance and does something with it for more than just a couple of games then I will post his info.
The only game footage I've seen of what I suppose to be Marshall mechanics in action is what looks to be a highly edited video of Mike Farrenkopf pitching against some hitters.
Highly edited....meaning that there are are only a few ABs represented, and the overall result of each AB is usually not shown (there are a couple of strike 3 pitches--these are definitely featured prominently) but...
...in fact no balls, wild pitches, hit batters, hits, walks, or balks are shown. If the video clip fully represents his entire collection of "good" pitches from a whole summer of pitching (I think this may have taken place in Colorado one or two summers ago), then he is probably just delusional. I understood the "fat old guys" comment someone else made in this thread when I watched the Farrenkopf YouTube video--most of the hitters he faced looked like bottom-of-the-barrel washouts to me.
The other available video is just the usual Marshall stuff: A bunch of guys throwing into nets or to a catcher in Zephyrhills, or the "Amazing 12 Year Old" throwing to his dad in his backyard.
These guys look horrible--their vast collection of pitches, with impressive-sounding technical names like MaxLine True Screwball, don't appear to have more or better movement than anybody else's pitches. The Amazing 12 Year Old does not have amazing velocity, because his father has gunned and reported his fastball: 50 - 55 mph. For a 12 yo, that is a very average, if not slightly below average, range. He also doesn't throw with any kind of control, if the clips his father puts up on the internet are any indication. Since they are presumably his best...that's not too good. The Amazin' is also seriously at risk to take a line-drive comebacker to the head if he ever pitches competitively--he ends up with his face turned somewhere between 1st base and 2nd base--he would likely not see a line drive to his head until it was too late to react properly.
The older jokers whose video is posted on Marshall's website will not suffer any pitching-related injuries at5 all because they will never pitch at a competitive level. In particular, Jeff Sparks, who was clocked in the low 90's when he pitched for Tampa Bay with traditional mechanics could not break the mid-70's when he pitched from a mound at ASMI with full-Marshall mechanics. Wow. Neither could Joe Williams break the mid-70's in ASMI's study of Marshall pitchers, even though he goes by the optimistic pseudonym of Fastbal95.
The old Marshall guys, will never play becuase they are no good (Sparks and Williams, for instance were both released a year or two ago from an indie semi-pro team--during spring training!). They were only there in the first place because manager Tommy John is a friend of Marshall's (or, was...Marshall let him have it, too) and he promised them a try-out. But, they were so terrible they couldn't make the Bridegport BlueFish, and there it is...
Even worse, Fleisig's ASMI study concluded that Marshall's pitching motion actually incurred more stress to the elbow and shoulder than the traditional pitching motion, while drastically limiting Marshall pitchers' velocity. Nice... a real lose-lose situation. But, predictably, it is not Marshall who is wrong, it is everyone else. Flesig, who has 70+ peer-reviewed biomechanics research articles to his name, and has an international reputation for conducting careful and properly controlled scientific research is now "diss'ed and dismissed" by Marshall and the rest of his voodoo cult,i.e, "Fleisig is a moron and he destroys pitching arms".
Highly edited....meaning that there are are only a few ABs represented, and the overall result of each AB is usually not shown (there are a couple of strike 3 pitches--these are definitely featured prominently) but...
...in fact no balls, wild pitches, hit batters, hits, walks, or balks are shown. If the video clip fully represents his entire collection of "good" pitches from a whole summer of pitching (I think this may have taken place in Colorado one or two summers ago), then he is probably just delusional. I understood the "fat old guys" comment someone else made in this thread when I watched the Farrenkopf YouTube video--most of the hitters he faced looked like bottom-of-the-barrel washouts to me.
The other available video is just the usual Marshall stuff: A bunch of guys throwing into nets or to a catcher in Zephyrhills, or the "Amazing 12 Year Old" throwing to his dad in his backyard.
These guys look horrible--their vast collection of pitches, with impressive-sounding technical names like MaxLine True Screwball, don't appear to have more or better movement than anybody else's pitches. The Amazing 12 Year Old does not have amazing velocity, because his father has gunned and reported his fastball: 50 - 55 mph. For a 12 yo, that is a very average, if not slightly below average, range. He also doesn't throw with any kind of control, if the clips his father puts up on the internet are any indication. Since they are presumably his best...that's not too good. The Amazin' is also seriously at risk to take a line-drive comebacker to the head if he ever pitches competitively--he ends up with his face turned somewhere between 1st base and 2nd base--he would likely not see a line drive to his head until it was too late to react properly.
The older jokers whose video is posted on Marshall's website will not suffer any pitching-related injuries at5 all because they will never pitch at a competitive level. In particular, Jeff Sparks, who was clocked in the low 90's when he pitched for Tampa Bay with traditional mechanics could not break the mid-70's when he pitched from a mound at ASMI with full-Marshall mechanics. Wow. Neither could Joe Williams break the mid-70's in ASMI's study of Marshall pitchers, even though he goes by the optimistic pseudonym of Fastbal95.
The old Marshall guys, will never play becuase they are no good (Sparks and Williams, for instance were both released a year or two ago from an indie semi-pro team--during spring training!). They were only there in the first place because manager Tommy John is a friend of Marshall's (or, was...Marshall let him have it, too) and he promised them a try-out. But, they were so terrible they couldn't make the Bridegport BlueFish, and there it is...
Even worse, Fleisig's ASMI study concluded that Marshall's pitching motion actually incurred more stress to the elbow and shoulder than the traditional pitching motion, while drastically limiting Marshall pitchers' velocity. Nice... a real lose-lose situation. But, predictably, it is not Marshall who is wrong, it is everyone else. Flesig, who has 70+ peer-reviewed biomechanics research articles to his name, and has an international reputation for conducting careful and properly controlled scientific research is now "diss'ed and dismissed" by Marshall and the rest of his voodoo cult,i.e, "Fleisig is a moron and he destroys pitching arms".
Why do I need to show clips of my two sons? I haven't made any claims. You and your friends have. One of my sons doesn't pitch yet, the other is primarily an infielder although he is penciled to chuck a few from the mound for his varsity team. If I come on here making claims, I will back it up.
Yardbird,
Here's an example of why I'm confused by (and suspicious of) Marshall terminology, and in this case your use of it. In a previous post, I mentioned not knowing what the term "driveline" means.
Here's your response:
Today, in a response to Cap_n, you make this comment:
The first quote describes a geometrical line. The second uses "driveline" with some other meaning, and certainly not a geometrical one. It's hard to discuss mechanics (as you have said you wish to do) when the usage of terms is so elastic.
Here's an example of why I'm confused by (and suspicious of) Marshall terminology, and in this case your use of it. In a previous post, I mentioned not knowing what the term "driveline" means.
Here's your response:
quote:The term “driveline” is the line between home plate and second base running straight through the middle of the pitchers plate. He uses this term a lot because many of his tenets are to align the body parts like the shoulders, hips and elbow at pendulum swing with this line.
Today, in a response to Cap_n, you make this comment:
quote:The pro level does not recognize even partial Marshall drivelines and Marshall’s drivelines are not even recognized or understood there so how could they be preferred?
The first quote describes a geometrical line. The second uses "driveline" with some other meaning, and certainly not a geometrical one. It's hard to discuss mechanics (as you have said you wish to do) when the usage of terms is so elastic.
A victim of the Marshall <80mph maxline fastball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hccgRol63A
Check it out--there appear to be a total of three actual strike 3 pitches, and an assorted collection of individual swinging or called strikes. One apparent fly-out.
I particularly liked the way he used an identical clip of opponent player Number 8's strikeout twice, at different places in the video--but, hey...it's no fair counting that twice...ahhh, the magic of video editing.
As said, most of the Farrenkopf clips are simply individual strikes extracted from ABs that we never see a concluding result for. My guess is, something bad happened at the conclusion of every one of those ABs...
Since this stuff was obviously recorded over several different games (more abrupt lighting changes than an Ed Wood movie) one might reasonably conclude that Farrenkopf probably recorded a grand total of 4 outs in his summer of pitching out in Colorado.
Check it out--there appear to be a total of three actual strike 3 pitches, and an assorted collection of individual swinging or called strikes. One apparent fly-out.
I particularly liked the way he used an identical clip of opponent player Number 8's strikeout twice, at different places in the video--but, hey...it's no fair counting that twice...ahhh, the magic of video editing.
As said, most of the Farrenkopf clips are simply individual strikes extracted from ABs that we never see a concluding result for. My guess is, something bad happened at the conclusion of every one of those ABs...
Since this stuff was obviously recorded over several different games (more abrupt lighting changes than an Ed Wood movie) one might reasonably conclude that Farrenkopf probably recorded a grand total of 4 outs in his summer of pitching out in Colorado.
Notice the 1st batter is leaning forward to get the ball...signs of inexperience. His backside is afraid of a pitch on the other side of the plate and it's trying to get away. Most high school players in So Cal would rather wear the ball than strike out.
My son was hitting 68 mph before he turned 12. 2 months after his 12th he broke 70. There were 4 kids in his 12u division in his league that threw harder. 2 threw over 70 mph, the other 2 were over 75. One of them is now Robert Stock's teammate at USC. Speaking of Robert he was throwing 80 mph as a 12 year old and now is mid 90's. His brother, still in high school, is said to be throwing over 90 mph.
My son says he was clocked at 87 mph. I don't know if he throws that hard, but when he recently nailed a batter with a fastball, we all felt that batter's pain. He had retired 7 straight with 4 strikeouts prior to nailing the batter.
My son says he was clocked at 87 mph. I don't know if he throws that hard, but when he recently nailed a batter with a fastball, we all felt that batter's pain. He had retired 7 straight with 4 strikeouts prior to nailing the batter.
Yardbird-
You're still making posts to redirect the focus of my question/request.
Show us all current video of a pro-aged pitcher who is performing Dr. M preferred mechanics at a pro level, throwing with controlled 90+ velocities.
You're still making posts to redirect the focus of my question/request.
Show us all current video of a pro-aged pitcher who is performing Dr. M preferred mechanics at a pro level, throwing with controlled 90+ velocities.
I know the discussion will always be confused with the difference between the all important top half mechanics and it’s beneficial aspects dealing with top half injuries opposed to the bottom half crow step middle rotational model all the way to the full late rotational model bottom half that eliminates bottom half injuries but since we will most likely never see the full model be given its day, talking about that is fruitless for all except those who have a strong constitution or wish to alleviate the bottom half injuries that plague them like the first poster wvmtner. I think we should concentrate the discussion with the top half mechanics.
In the future if anybody has mechanical questions please state what stage you are talking about, Full late rotational drive crow-hop like “amazing” or aggressive crow-hop with mid rotational drive or acquiescing Leg-lifters with Marshall top-half that can only attain mid rotational drive.
Laflippin,
If you were to actually understand the mechanics by trying them you would recognize some critical differences that seem to be traditional but are not. It’s all in the transition (arm turn over) at the top you must recognize.
You did not comment on my 12 YO video where I put in whole at bats, what gives?
I have been instructing pitching to all age groups for 30 years and the average velocity of all starting 12 YO is 57 mph. The 850 Marshall 12 YO that I was given permission to post, throws 72 MPH.. Could you tell he was that fast with that much movement from a video? You have to admit that game video is impressive!
And what was his traditional velocity before he started Marshall’s full mechanic?
You are willing to criticize this kids velocity in comparison to others of his age but not state that others of his age that have traditional mechanics also have low velocities?
Pitchers with great velocity are few and far between with either mechanic. These mechanics do not slow you down and have nothing to do with why pitchers are fast.
Do you think it will stay at your perceived analysis from afar? I seem to have no control problems with my talented pitchers with the full motion or I would have given up on it 8 years ago.
We have been over this read back
We have been over this read back, give them the ball! Personal attacks like the word “jokers” shows your personality more than it shows their ability to be given a shot at it.
This shows your understanding of these top half mechanics; the fact that you do not see it does not mean it’s not there, read back. Sparks displays 4 of the injury relieving tenet mechanics, can you name them? They are not traditional no matter how many times you repeat your misdiagnosed beliefs.
Yet Williams was unbattable and led the spring training try outs in every category,
Tommy John did not make the final decisions here. Why did you leave out how well Williams did, and there it actually is.
But not UCL Valgas stress!!!More stress is beneficial if it is not injurious!!! Fleisig believes UCL damage occurs at finish also, how about you? I don’t, I know when it happens at initial drive from” forearm bounce” this shows that ASMI and their kinesiologically challenged practitioners are anecdotally studying the traditional motion just like the NPA so they will never get at the truth or it will take them another 20 years to finally realize that their research is bogus and that blowing up pitchers arms is not worth being static in their approach. Studying a mechanic that produces as many different injuries as the traditional mechanic does and hoping that it won’t is bad science. How many arms have they destroyed like the Rice U. pitchers a while back that went to them for their mechanics? More of the same old! One thing is for sure, Dr.Andrews will never run out of arms and shoulders to repair with his involvement at ASMI.
That’s funny Joe Williams went to Marshall with a blown up Labrum (shoulder) and asked by the Mets Ortho’s to undergo surgery. When he got to Marshall’s, Marshall told him to NOT get surgery because his mechanics did not involve the labrum. He now pitches with out any pain.
Sparks came to Marshall with 2 major tears in his UCL, throwing in the high 70’s and needing UCL reduction. When he arrived at the MLB he was throwing in the low 90’s and topped out at 96.
Since Marshall’s centered driveline mechanics puts no stress on the UCL he was then able to throw with this increased velocity. Why did you not mention this?
Lets contrast that with a recent thread start here at HSBW by a Jr.College pitcher involved with the NPA and coach House.
“NPApitcher,
Howdy. I'm new here and just wanted to say hello. I came over from LetsTalkPitching.com. I play at Central Arizona Community College in Casa Grande, AZ. I am currently taking the year off due to shoulder surgery.
Anyways, I'll be here to offer advice and help if it's needed. See ya around.
Athlete's Performance
National Pitching Association
"You're only as strong as your weakest link." “
Do you see anything here repeatedly associated with the NPA’s traditional methodology; these shoulder problems have been manifesting themselves from there for a lot of years now!!
I live in So Cal so I see first hand what happens to these kids coming out of there.
Here is a quote from the NPA:
“At the 25th Annual ASMI Injuries in Baseball symposium last year a sizeable debate about proper pitching mechanics ensued after Tom House presented the NPA Pitching Mechanics Efficiency Model. Over 100 physical trainers and orthopedic surgeons had different views of pitching mechanics. Many of these attendees were very intelligent people that couldn't come to an agreement on how to throw correctly to reduce risk of injury. It is only through continued research that these viewpoints will start to converge at some point. But we all know that for the Perfect Delivery, proper mechanics are a must!”
Until this happens all these well meaning men will still contribute to the destruction of our best youth and adult arms.
Dr. Marshall has already done this research that these learned gentlemen will soon come to realize in their late repeatable research
If you were willing to know the truth, instead of listening to others give false information then repeating it and would actually try just the first three tenets you might find out something, typical. Heck, you are willing to let sidearmers go at it with their lowered velocities. I threw low side arm in College 10 % of the time to get 3rd strikes because I knew it produced outs with out velocity.Why the double standard?
MTS,
You have made many claims and I do not need video of your kids, just showing you
that you do not need video of mine neither. I like it when you talk of your kids.
Last I checked, I am the only one posting here, please direct your insults at me alone and not at those whom cannot defend themselves.
You have just made a claim that you recognize as non-claimant.
Who cares you just asked for any video, I gave it to you, that’s a start. There were also better batters shown, did you discuss them? At least you know that Full Marshall pitchers are now competing whether they are genetically gifted or not. You might want to look into it further because the full version will not be represented for very much longer, then your curiosity or what ever it is you are doing will not be satisfied in the future.
This must be another non-claim?
More non-claims? Love your verbal cadance gives you away , you need to stop repeating this stuff here as with over their. You might want to punt here?
There is an old saying in scouting, when you here a velocity time from anybody just take off 5 % and it will be closer to the truth. Nice claim though!
What does this genetically gifted pitcher have to do with anything? He was also in the low 9’s at 14 YO. One of a kind. I do not get the connection?
I’m proud of him but with out video according to you this is just a claim.
3fingeredglove,
I have been reading your intelligent posts all over these boards and do not believe that the use of the term suspicious as legitimate for you! Maybe I’m wrong here? By the way I like Dr. TAL’s approach and understand it completely, kids that wear out the barn door
seem to never get sore! I actually enjoy creative terminology if it makes sense like when I coined the term Kinexus, I’ll bet that sent you scrambleing, sorry! I will leave my terminology out in the future since this is a Marshall thread. At another site I am known as Dirtberry because I am from eastern Idaho. You may be the only one that gets that.
Most traditional coaches everywhere in the past believe that “over early rotation” past the driveline helps you with velocity that could not be further from the truth. This tenet, keeping your shoulders (acromial line), your hips (acetabular line) and your arms on the driveline at initial forward force application, mid force application and finish is the most important tenet to arm health because of where the resulting arm vector has no side to side centrifuging. Driveline is a field line to be matched with the body parts lines.
This is where your mechanical questions will get us somewhere unlike the tedium of distracting banter, Thank you, I’m not sure if I answered your actual question though.
I’m not as good at this as Marshall himself.
I will try to do better in the future with your help! I see no elasticity? As you get used to it, the more it makes sense. I have no trouble getting the youngest players to understand it.
Cap_n,
I have repeatedly answered your question about this perceived redirected attempts by me!
I have NO video of Pro’s or College kids because it is unnecessary for me to have it being that I no longer work with them when they leave High school. Besides would you recognize that they have to acquiesce back towards traditional or be chastised for being uncoachable? Since you would not know where they were as compared to where they are it would be of no use to you. I have told you youth pitchers perform these mechanics better already but you don’t seem to be able to put it together. This is why I posted with permission the 12 YO video that you (and “us”) refuse to discuss.
I see no one else that does not understand what I have already told them, only you?
In the future if anybody has mechanical questions please state what stage you are talking about, Full late rotational drive crow-hop like “amazing” or aggressive crow-hop with mid rotational drive or acquiescing Leg-lifters with Marshall top-half that can only attain mid rotational drive.
Laflippin,
quote:“The only game footage I've seen of what I suppose”
If you were to actually understand the mechanics by trying them you would recognize some critical differences that seem to be traditional but are not. It’s all in the transition (arm turn over) at the top you must recognize.
quote:”The other available video is just the usual Marshall stuff: A bunch of guys throwing into nets or to a catcher in Zephyrhills, or the "Amazing 12 Year Old" throwing to his dad in his backyard.”
You did not comment on my 12 YO video where I put in whole at bats, what gives?
quote:”The Amazing 12 Year Old does not have amazing velocity”
I have been instructing pitching to all age groups for 30 years and the average velocity of all starting 12 YO is 57 mph. The 850 Marshall 12 YO that I was given permission to post, throws 72 MPH.. Could you tell he was that fast with that much movement from a video? You have to admit that game video is impressive!
quote:“because his father has gunned and reported his fastball: 50 - 55 mph. For a 12 yo, that is a very average”
And what was his traditional velocity before he started Marshall’s full mechanic?
You are willing to criticize this kids velocity in comparison to others of his age but not state that others of his age that have traditional mechanics also have low velocities?
Pitchers with great velocity are few and far between with either mechanic. These mechanics do not slow you down and have nothing to do with why pitchers are fast.
quote:“He also doesn't throw with any kind of control”
Do you think it will stay at your perceived analysis from afar? I seem to have no control problems with my talented pitchers with the full motion or I would have given up on it 8 years ago.
quote:“seriously at risk to take a line-drive comebacker”
We have been over this read back
quote:”The older jokers whose video is posted on Marshall's website will not suffer any pitching-related injuries at5 all because they will never pitch at a competitive level.”
We have been over this read back, give them the ball! Personal attacks like the word “jokers” shows your personality more than it shows their ability to be given a shot at it.
quote:“In particular, Jeff Sparks, who was clocked in the low 90's when he pitched for Tampa Bay with traditional mechanics”
This shows your understanding of these top half mechanics; the fact that you do not see it does not mean it’s not there, read back. Sparks displays 4 of the injury relieving tenet mechanics, can you name them? They are not traditional no matter how many times you repeat your misdiagnosed beliefs.
quote:“they are no good” they were so terrible they couldn't make the Bridegport BlueFish, and there it is...”
Yet Williams was unbattable and led the spring training try outs in every category,
Tommy John did not make the final decisions here. Why did you leave out how well Williams did, and there it actually is.
quote:”Even worse, Fleisig's ASMI study concluded that Marshall's pitching motion actually incurred more stress to the elbow “
But not UCL Valgas stress!!!More stress is beneficial if it is not injurious!!! Fleisig believes UCL damage occurs at finish also, how about you? I don’t, I know when it happens at initial drive from” forearm bounce” this shows that ASMI and their kinesiologically challenged practitioners are anecdotally studying the traditional motion just like the NPA so they will never get at the truth or it will take them another 20 years to finally realize that their research is bogus and that blowing up pitchers arms is not worth being static in their approach. Studying a mechanic that produces as many different injuries as the traditional mechanic does and hoping that it won’t is bad science. How many arms have they destroyed like the Rice U. pitchers a while back that went to them for their mechanics? More of the same old! One thing is for sure, Dr.Andrews will never run out of arms and shoulders to repair with his involvement at ASMI.
quote:“stress to the elbow and shoulder than the traditional pitching motion”
That’s funny Joe Williams went to Marshall with a blown up Labrum (shoulder) and asked by the Mets Ortho’s to undergo surgery. When he got to Marshall’s, Marshall told him to NOT get surgery because his mechanics did not involve the labrum. He now pitches with out any pain.
Sparks came to Marshall with 2 major tears in his UCL, throwing in the high 70’s and needing UCL reduction. When he arrived at the MLB he was throwing in the low 90’s and topped out at 96.
Since Marshall’s centered driveline mechanics puts no stress on the UCL he was then able to throw with this increased velocity. Why did you not mention this?
Lets contrast that with a recent thread start here at HSBW by a Jr.College pitcher involved with the NPA and coach House.
“NPApitcher,
Howdy. I'm new here and just wanted to say hello. I came over from LetsTalkPitching.com. I play at Central Arizona Community College in Casa Grande, AZ. I am currently taking the year off due to shoulder surgery.
Anyways, I'll be here to offer advice and help if it's needed. See ya around.
Athlete's Performance
National Pitching Association
"You're only as strong as your weakest link." “
Do you see anything here repeatedly associated with the NPA’s traditional methodology; these shoulder problems have been manifesting themselves from there for a lot of years now!!
I live in So Cal so I see first hand what happens to these kids coming out of there.
Here is a quote from the NPA:
“At the 25th Annual ASMI Injuries in Baseball symposium last year a sizeable debate about proper pitching mechanics ensued after Tom House presented the NPA Pitching Mechanics Efficiency Model. Over 100 physical trainers and orthopedic surgeons had different views of pitching mechanics. Many of these attendees were very intelligent people that couldn't come to an agreement on how to throw correctly to reduce risk of injury. It is only through continued research that these viewpoints will start to converge at some point. But we all know that for the Perfect Delivery, proper mechanics are a must!”
Until this happens all these well meaning men will still contribute to the destruction of our best youth and adult arms.
Dr. Marshall has already done this research that these learned gentlemen will soon come to realize in their late repeatable research
quote:“while drastically limiting Marshall pitchers' velocity. Nice... a real lose-lose situation.”
If you were willing to know the truth, instead of listening to others give false information then repeating it and would actually try just the first three tenets you might find out something, typical. Heck, you are willing to let sidearmers go at it with their lowered velocities. I threw low side arm in College 10 % of the time to get 3rd strikes because I knew it produced outs with out velocity.Why the double standard?
MTS,
quote:“Why do I need to show clips of my two sons? I haven't made any claims.”
You have made many claims and I do not need video of your kids, just showing you
that you do not need video of mine neither. I like it when you talk of your kids.
quote:“You and your friends have.”
Last I checked, I am the only one posting here, please direct your insults at me alone and not at those whom cannot defend themselves.
quote:“One of my sons doesn't pitch yet, the other is primarily an infielder although he is penciled to chuck a few from the mound for his varsity team. If I come on here making claims, I will back it up.”
You have just made a claim that you recognize as non-claimant.
quote:“Notice the 1st batter is leaning forward to get the ball...signs of inexperience.”
Who cares you just asked for any video, I gave it to you, that’s a start. There were also better batters shown, did you discuss them? At least you know that Full Marshall pitchers are now competing whether they are genetically gifted or not. You might want to look into it further because the full version will not be represented for very much longer, then your curiosity or what ever it is you are doing will not be satisfied in the future.
quote:“My son was hitting 68 mph before he turned 12.”
This must be another non-claim?
quote:“2 months after his 12th he broke 70”
More non-claims? Love your verbal cadance gives you away , you need to stop repeating this stuff here as with over their. You might want to punt here?
quote:“There were 4 kids in his 12u division in his league that threw harder. 2 threw over 70 mph, the other 2 were over 75.”
There is an old saying in scouting, when you here a velocity time from anybody just take off 5 % and it will be closer to the truth. Nice claim though!
quote:“One of them is now Robert Stock's teammate at USC. Speaking of Robert he was throwing 80 mph as a 12 year old and now is mid 90's. His brother, still in high school, is said to be throwing over 90 mph.”
What does this genetically gifted pitcher have to do with anything? He was also in the low 9’s at 14 YO. One of a kind. I do not get the connection?
quote:”My son says he was clocked at 87 mph. I don't know if he throws that hard, but when he recently nailed a batter with a fastball, we all felt that batter's pain. He had retired 7 straight with 4 strikeouts prior to nailing the batter.”
I’m proud of him but with out video according to you this is just a claim.
3fingeredglove,
quote:“Here's an example of why I'm confused by (and suspicious of) Marshall terminology”
I have been reading your intelligent posts all over these boards and do not believe that the use of the term suspicious as legitimate for you! Maybe I’m wrong here? By the way I like Dr. TAL’s approach and understand it completely, kids that wear out the barn door
seem to never get sore! I actually enjoy creative terminology if it makes sense like when I coined the term Kinexus, I’ll bet that sent you scrambleing, sorry! I will leave my terminology out in the future since this is a Marshall thread. At another site I am known as Dirtberry because I am from eastern Idaho. You may be the only one that gets that.
quote:“The first quote describes a geometrical line. The second uses "driveline" with some other meaning, and certainly not a geometrical one.”
Most traditional coaches everywhere in the past believe that “over early rotation” past the driveline helps you with velocity that could not be further from the truth. This tenet, keeping your shoulders (acromial line), your hips (acetabular line) and your arms on the driveline at initial forward force application, mid force application and finish is the most important tenet to arm health because of where the resulting arm vector has no side to side centrifuging. Driveline is a field line to be matched with the body parts lines.
This is where your mechanical questions will get us somewhere unlike the tedium of distracting banter, Thank you, I’m not sure if I answered your actual question though.
I’m not as good at this as Marshall himself.
quote:“It's hard to discuss mechanics (as you have said you wish to do) when the usage of terms is so elastic”
I will try to do better in the future with your help! I see no elasticity? As you get used to it, the more it makes sense. I have no trouble getting the youngest players to understand it.
Cap_n,
quote:“You're still making posts to redirect the focus of my question/request.”
I have repeatedly answered your question about this perceived redirected attempts by me!
I have NO video of Pro’s or College kids because it is unnecessary for me to have it being that I no longer work with them when they leave High school. Besides would you recognize that they have to acquiesce back towards traditional or be chastised for being uncoachable? Since you would not know where they were as compared to where they are it would be of no use to you. I have told you youth pitchers perform these mechanics better already but you don’t seem to be able to put it together. This is why I posted with permission the 12 YO video that you (and “us”) refuse to discuss.
quote:”Show us”
I see no one else that does not understand what I have already told them, only you?
Yardbird
You need your own website so you don't use up ridiculous bandwidth here!!!
You need your own website so you don't use up ridiculous bandwidth here!!!
Trhit,
What if I was to post all of these videos I don’t have those guys want me to?
Just one video takes up more bandwidth than years worth of type and hype.
Sorry Cap-n.
quote:“You need your own website so you don't use up ridiculous bandwidth here!!!”
What if I was to post all of these videos I don’t have those guys want me to?
Just one video takes up more bandwidth than years worth of type and hype.
Sorry Cap-n.
Yardbird, I haven't made any extraordinary claims with a new pitching mechanic that doesn't work as you have. You are the typical Marshall board troll.
I'd like you to show where I have made an extraordinary claim about my kids.
Typical of the Marshall clan you continue to make statements that has little basis in reality.
I'd like you to show where I have made an extraordinary claim about my kids.
Typical of the Marshall clan you continue to make statements that has little basis in reality.
For those interested in what Marshall pitcher Joe Williams, aka fastbal95, is up to these days...
Read through the comments, especially noting the responses by fastbal95:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_fX9x38B58
He posts Marshall video clips on YouTube and then he rants and raves at the people who make nasty comments about the video clips. His arm is undoubtedly in great shape for pitching now, maybe just a touch of carpal tunnel...
Although Yardbird tries to suggest that no one will give the Marshall jokers the ball, in fact Marshall's former friend, Tommy John, of the Bridgeport BlueFish gave Jeff Sparks and Joe Williams the ball during spring training 1-2 years ago and they couldn't do enough with the ball to make the team roster.
For that, Tommy John was excoriated on Marshall's website...just like everyone else who fails to appreciate Doc's great genius.
Marshall tortured logic brutally in a futile attempt to explain away Joe Williams', Mike Farrenkopf's, and Jeff Sparks' inability to break the mid-70's at ASMI with full-Marshall mechanics. Very pitiful. His last resort, as usual for him, was to excoriate Dr. Glenn Fleisig for carrying out a careful and accurate study of his pitchers.
I can understand why this quixotic mission is no joke to the jokers who are fully immersed in the cult--think how you would feel if you had invested your entire career and all your hopes and dreams in Cold Fusion, Perpetual Motion, or the People's Temple in Guyana.
Read through the comments, especially noting the responses by fastbal95:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_fX9x38B58
He posts Marshall video clips on YouTube and then he rants and raves at the people who make nasty comments about the video clips. His arm is undoubtedly in great shape for pitching now, maybe just a touch of carpal tunnel...
Although Yardbird tries to suggest that no one will give the Marshall jokers the ball, in fact Marshall's former friend, Tommy John, of the Bridgeport BlueFish gave Jeff Sparks and Joe Williams the ball during spring training 1-2 years ago and they couldn't do enough with the ball to make the team roster.
For that, Tommy John was excoriated on Marshall's website...just like everyone else who fails to appreciate Doc's great genius.
Marshall tortured logic brutally in a futile attempt to explain away Joe Williams', Mike Farrenkopf's, and Jeff Sparks' inability to break the mid-70's at ASMI with full-Marshall mechanics. Very pitiful. His last resort, as usual for him, was to excoriate Dr. Glenn Fleisig for carrying out a careful and accurate study of his pitchers.
I can understand why this quixotic mission is no joke to the jokers who are fully immersed in the cult--think how you would feel if you had invested your entire career and all your hopes and dreams in Cold Fusion, Perpetual Motion, or the People's Temple in Guyana.
