Yardbird...I still don't bother to read your posts because:
A) I know you won't admit to what everyone can see, regardless of the frames per second, and that is that TM is not a Marshall pitcher with that kick and stride. He loses that kick and stride, his velocity will drop
B) Like the rest of the M group you massacre the truth.
quote:Yardbird... The only reason Tim and Tyler have superior velocity is they poses a higher percentage of fast twitch type II A and B muscles fibers.
You can measure this now? This is a tremendous advance. Can I sign up to have mine measured?
It's baaaack! 
Sultan,
Of course it can be measured. You'll just need to have a few biopsies done. Big needle. Big bill, and I don't think insurance will cover it.
Sultan,
Of course it can be measured. You'll just need to have a few biopsies done. Big needle. Big bill, and I don't think insurance will cover it.
I'm actually developing a product on how to throw 5mph faster. I'm not quite done and wanted to know the number one question people have when it comes to throwing harder. If you answer this question I'll give you the product for FREE when it's finished.
Submit your questions here:
== Link deleted by moderator. Sorry, you are not allowed to advertise your website in forum posts. - MN-Mom Forum Rules ==
Submit your questions here:
== Link deleted by moderator. Sorry, you are not allowed to advertise your website in forum posts. - MN-Mom Forum Rules ==
No free advertising Brewers.
Why does everybody think they have a new answer for a question that is already factually answered by actual experts in this particular field of Exercise physiology and Kinesiology?
Answer: Parents particular genetics mixed into their childs genetic make up gives each individual different fast twitch to slow twitch muscle percentages in every muscle!
This percentage difference can not be changed no matter what kind of gimic you can think of to sell.
Answer: Parents particular genetics mixed into their childs genetic make up gives each individual different fast twitch to slow twitch muscle percentages in every muscle!
This percentage difference can not be changed no matter what kind of gimic you can think of to sell.
YB,
I got to go with you on this one.
It's called everyone jumping into the act to make a quick buck.
I don't get where I have to ask a question in order to get information that already is out there, ok maybe a new gimick he's selling.
Brewers has gotten around advertising by spamming, you give your email and you got the info. Spam not allowed here.
I got to go with you on this one.
It's called everyone jumping into the act to make a quick buck.
I don't get where I have to ask a question in order to get information that already is out there, ok maybe a new gimick he's selling.
Brewers has gotten around advertising by spamming, you give your email and you got the info. Spam not allowed here.
Bballman,
Nobody has made this leap accept you.
He has added a couple of pronated pitches and workout drills but the general top half tenets were worked out while he was playing in the MLB at Michigan state university in the off season where he and their team of electronics experts and kinesiologists devised the first bio-mechanical high speed strobe lighting timing with high speed film diagnosis process that is used by bio-mechanics lab's today.
I did not mention more because I am on a post length watch unlike the rest.
He has had many while they are still performing in MLB, who cares his tenets work with even the average or poor athletes.
He explains this in detail at his site but some wish to Evelyn Wood the materials then think they have it down.
Who said he had it down pat? Of course it has been refined through time and testing but the main tenet of using your Latisimus Dorsi instead of your pechtoralis major as the primary driver, pronation of all pitches, using rotational forces when you are actually accelerating the ball and many more were figured out when he was playing, how else could he have set all those still existing records.
It is
This is true also, you have taken a statement that no major leaguer used his mechanics when he actually did and turned it into your personal vendetta against the information, can’t you see this?
quote:“So Dr. Marshall was using all his upper half tenets between 1961 and 1981.”
Nobody has made this leap accept you.
He has added a couple of pronated pitches and workout drills but the general top half tenets were worked out while he was playing in the MLB at Michigan state university in the off season where he and their team of electronics experts and kinesiologists devised the first bio-mechanical high speed strobe lighting timing with high speed film diagnosis process that is used by bio-mechanics lab's today.
quote:“he has not had more people than the 2 or 3 you mentioned, make it to the major” leagues?
I did not mention more because I am on a post length watch unlike the rest.
He has had many while they are still performing in MLB, who cares his tenets work with even the average or poor athletes.
.quote:”I really thought he had been developing and testing and researching this in an evolving progression all this time”
He explains this in detail at his site but some wish to Evelyn Wood the materials then think they have it down.
quote:“If he had it down pat by 1981, was all the research he has done since then just been to justify his method that he had already developed?”
Who said he had it down pat? Of course it has been refined through time and testing but the main tenet of using your Latisimus Dorsi instead of your pechtoralis major as the primary driver, pronation of all pitches, using rotational forces when you are actually accelerating the ball and many more were figured out when he was playing, how else could he have set all those still existing records.
quote:“I thought science and reasearch and testing was to come up with the most effective, effecient way of doing things.”
It is
quote:“Not to provide data to people to justify the way it is already being done.”
This is true also, you have taken a statement that no major leaguer used his mechanics when he actually did and turned it into your personal vendetta against the information, can’t you see this?
Scary thing is that I saw on some board I hope never to run into again that some of the Marshallites question Yardbird's fanaticism.
Evidently he isn't fanatical enough for them.
Evidently he isn't fanatical enough for them.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:“So Dr. Marshall was using all his upper half tenets between 1961 and 1981.”
Nobody has made this leap accept you.
I didn’t make this leap, you did. Please don’t try to twist the conversation to meet your needs. Here is what you said earlier:
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:Marshall did not use the tenets he teaches now when he pitched 30 years ago. Please don't use him as an example.
Yes he did! He is a perfect example.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,quote:“Not Dr. Marshall who pitched before he developed the current tenets”
He used all the upper half tenets!
quote:“If he had it down pat by 1981, was all the research he has done since then just been to justify his method that he had already developed?”
Who said he had it down pat?[/QUOTE]
You said he had it down pat in the quotes above. You said he used ALL the upper half tenets. That means EVERYTHING he teaches now was used then. Yard, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say Marshall is an example of his own work, but then say things have changed since he pitched. If he used ALL the tenets when he pitched, then he hasn’t developed anything new since then.
I am not making these assertions or leaps. I am simply talking about what you have said yourself.
CaDad,
This is very interesting, I wonder why they do not post here at HSBW and at the same time read here? Beside I’m not a fan I’m a practitioner.
They are probably upset that I acquiesce and mix Marshalls non-injurious tenets with the useless leg lift to get playing time? What else can I do? The baseball establishment mentality at all levels will not allow my full bottom half pitchers to perform except in LL and Jr’s. LL so we must turn yellow and capitulate for them and perform the lesser mechanic just before HS tryouts.
I would love to have the chance to challenge these admonishers and set them straight but unless you name the board and its thread this will not happen? Or maybe?
quote:“Scary thing is that I saw on some board I hope never to run into again that some of the Marshallites question Yardbird's fanaticism.”
This is very interesting, I wonder why they do not post here at HSBW and at the same time read here? Beside I’m not a fan I’m a practitioner.
quote:”Evidently he isn't fanatical enough for them”
They are probably upset that I acquiesce and mix Marshalls non-injurious tenets with the useless leg lift to get playing time? What else can I do? The baseball establishment mentality at all levels will not allow my full bottom half pitchers to perform except in LL and Jr’s. LL so we must turn yellow and capitulate for them and perform the lesser mechanic just before HS tryouts.
I would love to have the chance to challenge these admonishers and set them straight but unless you name the board and its thread this will not happen? Or maybe?
You were on it. It was somewhere around the draft when Matzek got drafted. Just google your name. I have no plans to look for that one.
BTW, although pitchers seldom lose velocity throwing from the stretch they almost always lose velocity when going to a slide step.
BTW, although pitchers seldom lose velocity throwing from the stretch they almost always lose velocity when going to a slide step.
CaDad,
Can't say I have noticed this in any but have heard it many times!
Why do you think the guys on the other end of "almost always" don't loose this velocity?
Can't say I have noticed this in any but have heard it many times!
Why do you think the guys on the other end of "almost always" don't loose this velocity?
JMO, there's no real hard data one way or the other on velocity vs. pitching from a slide step that I know of. I've seen the velocity lost in a couple HS pitchers but that is way too small of a sample. Sometimes pitchers who slide step stay closed better and that makes up for the added momentum of the leg lift. A lot of differences get lost in individual mechanics.
I have heard of, but haven't read, studies that showed that rotation had a greater effect than linear momentum and that would then imply that pitchers can get more velocity from a leg lift since almost every pitcher who lifts the leg has some component of rotation, while the rotational momentum isn't going to be there with a slide step to speak of. I suppose a rotational slide step could be done without lifting the leg significantly by starting with the stride foot in a closed location.
In other words, I don't believe the lift directly adds much if anything to velocity but it does help to establish the rotational momentum by moving the cg of that leg to the side. Lifting the leg will move the body's cg upward a bit which will help to create forward momentum if done properly but I don't think it is a big effect relative to how much the lateral cg changes. Chapman seems to use his rotational momentum very effectively and I find it hard to believe he could generate anywhere near the same velocity with a slide step.
I have heard of, but haven't read, studies that showed that rotation had a greater effect than linear momentum and that would then imply that pitchers can get more velocity from a leg lift since almost every pitcher who lifts the leg has some component of rotation, while the rotational momentum isn't going to be there with a slide step to speak of. I suppose a rotational slide step could be done without lifting the leg significantly by starting with the stride foot in a closed location.
In other words, I don't believe the lift directly adds much if anything to velocity but it does help to establish the rotational momentum by moving the cg of that leg to the side. Lifting the leg will move the body's cg upward a bit which will help to create forward momentum if done properly but I don't think it is a big effect relative to how much the lateral cg changes. Chapman seems to use his rotational momentum very effectively and I find it hard to believe he could generate anywhere near the same velocity with a slide step.
I do know at least in my sons case that he loses about 3-4 mph when he slide steps versus a full leg lift. When he slide steps it is more lineear to home plate and I have noticed the arm does not get tweaked back as far due to the hips being more open at initial leg lift. I always dread when he gets runners on first because he gives up MPH. I always tell him to use more leg and get more rotation out of the hip which allows his upper body to get more initial windup. I have noticed that he throws the hardest not from the windup but from the stretch with a runner on second base. Fronm the video I watch it appears that when he gets a runner on second he gets a higher leg lift, more torso rotation and also more of a rotationl drive to home where the front leg comes down in more of an arc out around short and third base side then towards home at the last. He also seems to use this roatation as a leverage because right before he lands he brings it back and then straight towards home plate almost as if he starts to pull that side backwards against the direction of his rotating hips.
How would you guys explain Rob Nen dropping his leg down and tapping it on the ground out in front to a stop then reprogressing it forewords and attaining 104 mph?
I'd have to see clips. He probably used the momentum from his leg lift to help get his body going and then strode out like anyone else. The toe tap probably doesn't have much impact on his momentum. What the toe tap does is help him stay closed, so he traded a bit of momentum for staying closed better. Nen was quite closed at foot plant. He probably put a bit more stress on his shoulder as a result. All speculation as all I've found are still pics and I also have no idea at all what he looked like before going to the toe tap.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
How would you guys explain Rob Nen dropping his leg down and tapping it on the ground out in front to a stop then reprogressing it forewords and attaining 104 mph?
Genetics
Rob Nenn in his prime could reach the high 90s. Where does the 104 mph claim come from?
He's been recorded at 102. BTW, he felt that his mechanics were a mess and seemed to blame his shoulder problems on his mechanics.
The toe tap was something he just stumbled on. It was supposedly some drill having to do with his toe pointing down or not and he accidentally touched the ground and found he could throw harder so he kept doing it.
It is hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like he toe taps with his stride foot a fair amount closed and does swing the leg around a bit into foot plant then lands closed with the foot pointing open. Once again, still pictures so they can be very misleading.
The toe tap was something he just stumbled on. It was supposedly some drill having to do with his toe pointing down or not and he accidentally touched the ground and found he could throw harder so he kept doing it.
It is hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like he toe taps with his stride foot a fair amount closed and does swing the leg around a bit into foot plant then lands closed with the foot pointing open. Once again, still pictures so they can be very misleading.
BOF,
SLOL, I just hate it (actually love it) when you get this right, placating me is shrewd strategy but sad for me because I never got above 85 and was 6’5” 220 in College so I must be genetically deficient, dang parents!
quote:Genetics
SLOL, I just hate it (actually love it) when you get this right, placating me is shrewd strategy but sad for me because I never got above 85 and was 6’5” 220 in College so I must be genetically deficient, dang parents!
Yardbird,
I'd settle for different rather than deficient. Got some fast twitch fibers I can sell you right next to those toll bridge shares.
I'd settle for different rather than deficient.
Got some fast twitch fibers I can sell you right next to those toll bridge shares.
3FingeredGlove,
I’ve seen Nen fluctuate from 92 up to 98 personally.
When he played for the Marlins early in the regular season and in Spring training he was consistently pitching 102 with an occasional 104 (quoted in SI)and was being touted as the fastest ever. He was tapping his toe in the dirt which disrupted his forwards momentum at the same timeline but this was not noted or discussed why he could still pitch that fast, We know now from high speed film that none of the early rotations or down the hill momentum has anything to do with velocity because when your glove side leg plants and stops all your forwards momentum you have not even started you acceleration phase and are still in your Humeral/forearm transition phase making all the previous separations, rotations and momentums basically useless other than getting you into postural position to then start your acceleration phase. Nen is a perfect example of this because he still was above the century mark in velocity.
Marshall has been saying this for over 30 years but people still think that the separation that they see in early drop in and land has something to do with velocity when it is actually lost in transition.
quote:“Rob Nenn in his prime could reach the high 90s.”
I’ve seen Nen fluctuate from 92 up to 98 personally.
quote:Where does the 104 mph claim come from?
When he played for the Marlins early in the regular season and in Spring training he was consistently pitching 102 with an occasional 104 (quoted in SI)and was being touted as the fastest ever. He was tapping his toe in the dirt which disrupted his forwards momentum at the same timeline but this was not noted or discussed why he could still pitch that fast, We know now from high speed film that none of the early rotations or down the hill momentum has anything to do with velocity because when your glove side leg plants and stops all your forwards momentum you have not even started you acceleration phase and are still in your Humeral/forearm transition phase making all the previous separations, rotations and momentums basically useless other than getting you into postural position to then start your acceleration phase. Nen is a perfect example of this because he still was above the century mark in velocity.
Marshall has been saying this for over 30 years but people still think that the separation that they see in early drop in and land has something to do with velocity when it is actually lost in transition.
CADad,
He was exactly right!!!! His over early rotation caused his velocity drop by loosening his gleno Humeral (holds the Humerus in the scapula) and UCL(holds the ulna to the Humerus) ligaments where the head of his humerus was pushing forwards against fossa (socket) at the start of transition (this grinds the labrum at the front also) and start of acceleration, then slides across to the back of the Fossa to disrupt the Labrum and ligaments there just like a mortar and pestal.
To bad he did not look up the fix by just keeping the humerus in line with your shoulders all the way through transition, acceleration and release!
When his UCL finally tore all the way through it ended it, this injury is easily fixable also by not bringing the ball back then up with your hand on top of the ball causing later “forearm bounce” that is nothing more than mechanics and has nothing to do with pitch counts other than you must pitch some with these bad mechanic in order to injure yourself.
quote:“he felt that his mechanics were a mess and seemed to blame his shoulder problems on his mechanics.”-Rob Nen
He was exactly right!!!! His over early rotation caused his velocity drop by loosening his gleno Humeral (holds the Humerus in the scapula) and UCL(holds the ulna to the Humerus) ligaments where the head of his humerus was pushing forwards against fossa (socket) at the start of transition (this grinds the labrum at the front also) and start of acceleration, then slides across to the back of the Fossa to disrupt the Labrum and ligaments there just like a mortar and pestal.
To bad he did not look up the fix by just keeping the humerus in line with your shoulders all the way through transition, acceleration and release!
When his UCL finally tore all the way through it ended it, this injury is easily fixable also by not bringing the ball back then up with your hand on top of the ball causing later “forearm bounce” that is nothing more than mechanics and has nothing to do with pitch counts other than you must pitch some with these bad mechanic in order to injure yourself.
BOF
I have answered this so many times for you in the past directly and indirectly that it makes me believe you are reading off your Marshall hater talking points list without thinking about it and boorish questions are never OK BO and deserve answers equal in intelligence to be understood by the questioner but I will accommodate you with respect.
When physically instructing or someone having followed instructional information from Dr.Marshall all have improved velocity that I am aware of but even in retirement what is important is the information that can be used as I do to give my clients and all other concerned parents this chance also.
He actually has high speed entry video with accompanying speed readings of all who attended his research facility and all had the advantage of a high speed exit video with same said velocity readings. All improved even the adults that came in at very low velocity ended up higher but still to low for advancement as with the all others traning differantly.
The same as in the general population anywhere, where a certain percentage of the population had the genetic ability to perform at those velocities although most of his clients came to him with serious injuries after surgery from their nominal traditional mechanics learned at places like ASMI and Jaeger and some showed up to only gain velocity but received both.
Many! He has helped hundreds of MLB pitchers in the past like when he changed the way Jerry Koosman pitched differently to left side and right side batters from different release heights that helped him receive comeback player of the year and only he knows who of them have bought his instructional DVD because he does not bring up their names unless directly asked by someone who has found out indirectly and he even politely answer mundane questions that have no purpose other than to foment sophomoric contention. All others would have attained the information for free at the web site like most and remain anonymous.
Rather than giving you the ones who completed the correct 2 year interval training program I’ll give one who was only there for 6 weeks and only learned how to train and how to clean up his mechanics and because it is documented by the player himself in many articles you can crosscheck it.
Rudy Saenez arrived at Marshalls door with entry video velocity at 90 MPH and in constant pain. Rudy left for spring training with no pain and pitching at 102 MPH where in his early 30ies revived his career and then proceeded to not train as directed for the rest of his career as usual for these quick fix uncommitted (proper year round training) professionals.
Now there is a lot more of these stories (Jeff Kubenka) but I am limited in my bandwidth allowance that I must give a lot of thought to unlike all others.
How would you know, you are a Marshall hater and stay clear of the information!
Again you repeat this foolish behavior by stateing lies, I have 5 pitchers currently competing in the Pack 10 and elsewhere and many in pro ball.
Yes, many 1st team all CIF performers.
Again how would you know? You are a Marshall hater who has no knowledge or expierience with their advancement.
I love it when previously injured pitchers want to join mens leagues and come in so that they can still compete pain free.
Now I have answered your non-utilitarian questions as usual, how about you give us the names of the pitchers ASMI uses as their “nominal elite pitchers” that they use to claim mechanical perfection in comparative analysis?????? “Be specific please”?
If you can not do this, please wonder why! I can give you hundreds that they have destroyed with their nominal recommendations.
Now give us all the Wolforth list? Quid pro quo, please.
I wouldn’t suggest you give that Jaeger list for it would be injuriously embarrassing.
quote:“OK Yard”
I have answered this so many times for you in the past directly and indirectly that it makes me believe you are reading off your Marshall hater talking points list without thinking about it and boorish questions are never OK BO and deserve answers equal in intelligence to be understood by the questioner but I will accommodate you with respect.
quote:“how many kids have improved velocity under Dr. Marshall?”
When physically instructing or someone having followed instructional information from Dr.Marshall all have improved velocity that I am aware of but even in retirement what is important is the information that can be used as I do to give my clients and all other concerned parents this chance also.
quote:“What were their start velocities and ending velocities?”
He actually has high speed entry video with accompanying speed readings of all who attended his research facility and all had the advantage of a high speed exit video with same said velocity readings. All improved even the adults that came in at very low velocity ended up higher but still to low for advancement as with the all others traning differantly.
quote:“How many of his students are throwing 95+, 90+?”
The same as in the general population anywhere, where a certain percentage of the population had the genetic ability to perform at those velocities although most of his clients came to him with serious injuries after surgery from their nominal traditional mechanics learned at places like ASMI and Jaeger and some showed up to only gain velocity but received both.
quote:How many of his students are playing in the MLB?
Many! He has helped hundreds of MLB pitchers in the past like when he changed the way Jerry Koosman pitched differently to left side and right side batters from different release heights that helped him receive comeback player of the year and only he knows who of them have bought his instructional DVD because he does not bring up their names unless directly asked by someone who has found out indirectly and he even politely answer mundane questions that have no purpose other than to foment sophomoric contention. All others would have attained the information for free at the web site like most and remain anonymous.
quote:“Be specific please”
Rather than giving you the ones who completed the correct 2 year interval training program I’ll give one who was only there for 6 weeks and only learned how to train and how to clean up his mechanics and because it is documented by the player himself in many articles you can crosscheck it.
Rudy Saenez arrived at Marshalls door with entry video velocity at 90 MPH and in constant pain. Rudy left for spring training with no pain and pitching at 102 MPH where in his early 30ies revived his career and then proceeded to not train as directed for the rest of his career as usual for these quick fix uncommitted (proper year round training) professionals.
Now there is a lot more of these stories (Jeff Kubenka) but I am limited in my bandwidth allowance that I must give a lot of thought to unlike all others.
quote:“As far as following his throwing advice you will not hurt yourself”
How would you know, you are a Marshall hater and stay clear of the information!
quote:“but you won't pitch at a very high level.”
Again you repeat this foolish behavior by stateing lies, I have 5 pitchers currently competing in the Pack 10 and elsewhere and many in pro ball.
quote:“You certainly can make a good HS pitcher “
Yes, many 1st team all CIF performers.
quote:“maybe a low level college program”
Again how would you know? You are a Marshall hater who has no knowledge or expierience with their advancement.
quote:“certainly a mens league, but not beyond this”
I love it when previously injured pitchers want to join mens leagues and come in so that they can still compete pain free.
Now I have answered your non-utilitarian questions as usual, how about you give us the names of the pitchers ASMI uses as their “nominal elite pitchers” that they use to claim mechanical perfection in comparative analysis?????? “Be specific please”?
If you can not do this, please wonder why! I can give you hundreds that they have destroyed with their nominal recommendations.
Now give us all the Wolforth list? Quid pro quo, please.
I wouldn’t suggest you give that Jaeger list for it would be injuriously embarrassing.
Yard,
I have an open mind but did have a couple of questions. Sparks worked with Marshall and stated that he threw better now than in 1999 or 2000 but was clocked at 83. He claimed the gun was wrong. Kubenka pitched only 17 innings in 2 years. Kooseman did not use the Marshall mechanics as he had not developed them back then as he talks about on his site. I was just wondering if there are any players at a high level currently using his mechanics that are having success with them.
I have an open mind but did have a couple of questions. Sparks worked with Marshall and stated that he threw better now than in 1999 or 2000 but was clocked at 83. He claimed the gun was wrong. Kubenka pitched only 17 innings in 2 years. Kooseman did not use the Marshall mechanics as he had not developed them back then as he talks about on his site. I was just wondering if there are any players at a high level currently using his mechanics that are having success with them.
Yard,
Wolforth used to have a full list of all of his players. I have not been to his site in some time but just pulled this down.
"Coach Wolforth has consulted for 3 Major League Organizations, 19 Baseball Academies and 27 NCAA Division I, II, III programs throughout the United States and is a regular featured writer for Collegiate Baseball. Coach Wolforth has been a keynote presenter 3 times at the ABCA (American Baseball Coaches Association) national convention and over the past 3 years has been the lead pitching presenter at the Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Arkansas, Indiana, Ohio, Oregon and Louisiana high school baseball associations. In addition, 34 of Coach Wolforth's pitchers have been drafted since 2001 and over 50 have topped 90 mph."
Jaeger's coach and player testimonials are too lengthy to post here. They can be found at:
http://www.jaegersports.com/Player-Testimonials/
Both of them have been highly successful in the area that they work.
As I have posted numerous times the problem with Mike Marshall and his disciples is that you always seem to position your arguments suggesting that his way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong. (Same thing with Dick Mills) The “my way or the highway” kind of approach just does not work in any field, let alone pitching where there are many ways to be successful at it.
He is absolutely spot on regarding the whole genetic age area and when kids should be pitching and how much. There is also a lot to be said about throwing from the “other side of the baseball” to give the batter a different look. However he has not demonstrated a “body of work” over a long period of time showing his methods work and can be successful. His business was a failure and was shut down for not being financially viable. In fact he was a successful MLB pitcher and did not subscribe to his “new approach” while he was in the Bigs. No one really needs to say much more than this.
He/you have so much to offer other than this mumbo jumbo that you preach all of the time. I suggest you find some common ground.
Wolforth used to have a full list of all of his players. I have not been to his site in some time but just pulled this down.
"Coach Wolforth has consulted for 3 Major League Organizations, 19 Baseball Academies and 27 NCAA Division I, II, III programs throughout the United States and is a regular featured writer for Collegiate Baseball. Coach Wolforth has been a keynote presenter 3 times at the ABCA (American Baseball Coaches Association) national convention and over the past 3 years has been the lead pitching presenter at the Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Arkansas, Indiana, Ohio, Oregon and Louisiana high school baseball associations. In addition, 34 of Coach Wolforth's pitchers have been drafted since 2001 and over 50 have topped 90 mph."
Jaeger's coach and player testimonials are too lengthy to post here. They can be found at:
http://www.jaegersports.com/Player-Testimonials/
Both of them have been highly successful in the area that they work.
As I have posted numerous times the problem with Mike Marshall and his disciples is that you always seem to position your arguments suggesting that his way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong. (Same thing with Dick Mills) The “my way or the highway” kind of approach just does not work in any field, let alone pitching where there are many ways to be successful at it.
He is absolutely spot on regarding the whole genetic age area and when kids should be pitching and how much. There is also a lot to be said about throwing from the “other side of the baseball” to give the batter a different look. However he has not demonstrated a “body of work” over a long period of time showing his methods work and can be successful. His business was a failure and was shut down for not being financially viable. In fact he was a successful MLB pitcher and did not subscribe to his “new approach” while he was in the Bigs. No one really needs to say much more than this.
He/you have so much to offer other than this mumbo jumbo that you preach all of the time. I suggest you find some common ground.
BOF,
BOF,
Put up or shut up, who are the MLB guys like you asked me? I named some of Marshalls!
You seem to always ask for information and get it but when the same information is asked of you, sand gets in your way.
who cares about injury producing testimonials, put up or shut up, who are the MLB guy’s he has taught mechanics to? Lets start with the fastest one. I gave you Marshalls, quid pro quo.
this is false and you know it, we say they are the only non-injurious force applications.
People can pitch anyway they wish to.
Mills blew up his own son, why would you be hating him? He’s actually on your team.
All centripetal mechanics are injurious where supination is the natural outcome.
Nobody has said injurious mechanics are not successful!
His pitches utilize both sides of the baseball while still pronating the drive and release.
I guess the first CY Young award earned by a reliever over 30 years ago is not good enough for you ? they work and are successful, you just don’t see it and have some other problem that drives your hateful discourse..
Listen to yourself, !!! he did not have a business, he offers everything for free.
Listen to yourself !!! you are relentless with the false witness. He closed his research facility because the research was concluded and is now compiling the information for the refined final version of his work and his well deserved retirement.
He used his top half findings from his research produced when he was playing then but how would you know what to look for being a hater the information just passes you by.
The most important thing to ask is your son aware of the information !!!!!!?
Yet you have repeated this false assertion many times over now. What is your real problem with a change in mechanics?
Why don’t you talk about the “mumbo jumbo” instead of the personal hate speech and disinformation? Maybe we can eliminate all these injuries that plague mothers across America because it sure does not seem bother the fathers or coaches although some mothers have a big thumbs up for their sons injurious force application and others it appears. I wonder how many make their own sons aware of the information?
I stand closer to common ground having looked at both mechanics and practiced both for results. Listen to yourself!
allcoach,
These questions have all been answered in the past and the continual chiding of the mechanics by some when they are brought here to help injured youth players is shameful.
BOF helps none of these kids by continually stating outright lies about what has happened in the past to discredit something worthwhile and with merit.
Sparks came to Marshall with 2 previous UCL tears that had calcified over and was enlarged plus severe pain from other factors due to supination and training fitness like all traditional pitchers and with his entry video showing 78-82 MPH. He learned the top half mechanics (where the UCL is not stressed at all) and training regimen then signed with the Rays where he eventually attained 92-95 MPH as seen in many clips of him performing in the MLB with his forced modified pitching motion from his pro pitching coaches making him acquiesce the bottom half into the quasi-Marshall pitching motion where the top half is fully performed but the bottom half is held back to the inferior leg pause. He achieved over 600 K’s in his climb through the MiLB and 41 K’s in 30 innings in the MLB (MLB record? For K ratio) before being outright released after it was found out Dr.Marshall trained him. The reading you are alluding to of 83 was given by a scout behind the mound at a tryout he was running who did not like what he saw (like all) in him because of his strange looking crowhop mechanics (full Marshall) while a scout in the stands said he had the best stuff that day and said he was in the low 9’s. In fact the pro-catcher that day said sparks was in the low 9’s also and his stuff was like nothing he had ever witnessed before and said so at BF in a post.
He was not running the gun the scout was! How would he know about the gun?
Everybody there claimed the scout falsified the reading and there was verification of this.
BOF said nobody will make it to the higher levels, Kubenka outright quit because of the petty and constant meddling with his strange mechanics, he still was good enough to grind thru the MiLB and make it to the Bigs, there are more. Yet BOF makes false misleading statements to disparage the safer mechanics like if it were the truth.
His top half mechanics (Marshall) pronation and early transition thru the use of the lats) were developed and used by Marshall and the help he gave to his teammates were beneficial to all of them.
You can see the change occurring through the proliferation of pronated pitches like the Sinker and the higher arm vectors. Watch Lincecum who Dr.Marshall says comes closest by elevating his elbow and involving his Lat’s to throw with instead of his pech attaining a pronated ball driveline although Lincecum is now learning supinated pitches to his detriment thanks to the same establishment mentality that said his entry to the MLB mechanics were terrible when they were actually superior in action and injury prevention.
Roy Halladay has had his DVD for 1.5 years now. Brett Cecil is a practitioner. You see many more now bringing the ball back then up by supinating with the hand under the ball that is still being chastised by the traditional pitching coaches as the derogatory “Pie throwing” that protects your UCL and puts you into your acceleration phase farther back.
This year I expect there to be many more using these superior tenets. When they discover that all the current dangerous supinated pitches can also be thrown pronated we will see much less injuries to these players.
quote:
[quote] “Wolforth used to have a full list of all of his players”
Put up or shut up, who are the MLB guys like you asked me? I named some of Marshalls!
You seem to always ask for information and get it but when the same information is asked of you, sand gets in your way.
quote:“Jaeger's coach and player testimonials are too lengthy to post here”
who cares about injury producing testimonials, put up or shut up, who are the MLB guy’s he has taught mechanics to? Lets start with the fastest one. I gave you Marshalls, quid pro quo.
quote:“As I have posted numerous times the problem with Mike Marshall and his disciples is that you always seem to position your arguments suggesting that his way is the only right way”
this is false and you know it, we say they are the only non-injurious force applications.
People can pitch anyway they wish to.
quote:“Same thing with Dick Mills”
Mills blew up his own son, why would you be hating him? He’s actually on your team.
All centripetal mechanics are injurious where supination is the natural outcome.
quote:“there are many ways to be successful at it”
Nobody has said injurious mechanics are not successful!
quote:“There is also a lot to be said about throwing from the “other side of the baseball”
His pitches utilize both sides of the baseball while still pronating the drive and release.
quote:“However he has not demonstrated a “body of work” over a long period of time showing his methods work and can be successful.”
I guess the first CY Young award earned by a reliever over 30 years ago is not good enough for you ? they work and are successful, you just don’t see it and have some other problem that drives your hateful discourse..
quote:“His business was a failure”
Listen to yourself, !!! he did not have a business, he offers everything for free.
quote:“was shut down for not being financially viable”
Listen to yourself !!! you are relentless with the false witness. He closed his research facility because the research was concluded and is now compiling the information for the refined final version of his work and his well deserved retirement.
quote:“In fact he was a successful MLB pitcher and did not subscribe to his “new approach” while he was in the Bigs”
He used his top half findings from his research produced when he was playing then but how would you know what to look for being a hater the information just passes you by.
The most important thing to ask is your son aware of the information !!!!!!?
quote:“No one really needs to say much more than this”
Yet you have repeated this false assertion many times over now. What is your real problem with a change in mechanics?
quote:”He/you have so much to offer other than this mumbo jumbo that you preach all of the time. I suggest you find some common ground.”
Why don’t you talk about the “mumbo jumbo” instead of the personal hate speech and disinformation? Maybe we can eliminate all these injuries that plague mothers across America because it sure does not seem bother the fathers or coaches although some mothers have a big thumbs up for their sons injurious force application and others it appears. I wonder how many make their own sons aware of the information?
I stand closer to common ground having looked at both mechanics and practiced both for results. Listen to yourself!
allcoach,
quote:”I have an open mind but did have a couple of questions”
These questions have all been answered in the past and the continual chiding of the mechanics by some when they are brought here to help injured youth players is shameful.
BOF helps none of these kids by continually stating outright lies about what has happened in the past to discredit something worthwhile and with merit.
quote:“Sparks worked with Marshall and stated that he threw better now than in 1999 or 2000 but was clocked at 83”
Sparks came to Marshall with 2 previous UCL tears that had calcified over and was enlarged plus severe pain from other factors due to supination and training fitness like all traditional pitchers and with his entry video showing 78-82 MPH. He learned the top half mechanics (where the UCL is not stressed at all) and training regimen then signed with the Rays where he eventually attained 92-95 MPH as seen in many clips of him performing in the MLB with his forced modified pitching motion from his pro pitching coaches making him acquiesce the bottom half into the quasi-Marshall pitching motion where the top half is fully performed but the bottom half is held back to the inferior leg pause. He achieved over 600 K’s in his climb through the MiLB and 41 K’s in 30 innings in the MLB (MLB record? For K ratio) before being outright released after it was found out Dr.Marshall trained him. The reading you are alluding to of 83 was given by a scout behind the mound at a tryout he was running who did not like what he saw (like all) in him because of his strange looking crowhop mechanics (full Marshall) while a scout in the stands said he had the best stuff that day and said he was in the low 9’s. In fact the pro-catcher that day said sparks was in the low 9’s also and his stuff was like nothing he had ever witnessed before and said so at BF in a post.
quote:“He claimed the gun was wrong”
He was not running the gun the scout was! How would he know about the gun?
Everybody there claimed the scout falsified the reading and there was verification of this.
quote:Kubenka pitched only 17 innings in 2 years.
BOF said nobody will make it to the higher levels, Kubenka outright quit because of the petty and constant meddling with his strange mechanics, he still was good enough to grind thru the MiLB and make it to the Bigs, there are more. Yet BOF makes false misleading statements to disparage the safer mechanics like if it were the truth.
quote:“Kooseman did not use the Marshall mechanics as he had not developed them back then.”
His top half mechanics (Marshall) pronation and early transition thru the use of the lats) were developed and used by Marshall and the help he gave to his teammates were beneficial to all of them.
quote:“I was just wondering if there are any players at a high level currently using his mechanics that are having success with them.”
You can see the change occurring through the proliferation of pronated pitches like the Sinker and the higher arm vectors. Watch Lincecum who Dr.Marshall says comes closest by elevating his elbow and involving his Lat’s to throw with instead of his pech attaining a pronated ball driveline although Lincecum is now learning supinated pitches to his detriment thanks to the same establishment mentality that said his entry to the MLB mechanics were terrible when they were actually superior in action and injury prevention.
Roy Halladay has had his DVD for 1.5 years now. Brett Cecil is a practitioner. You see many more now bringing the ball back then up by supinating with the hand under the ball that is still being chastised by the traditional pitching coaches as the derogatory “Pie throwing” that protects your UCL and puts you into your acceleration phase farther back.
This year I expect there to be many more using these superior tenets. When they discover that all the current dangerous supinated pitches can also be thrown pronated we will see much less injuries to these players.
..can't believe I'm stepping into this...
Yard,
This is coming from an innocent bystander in a nuetral corner who is always looking to learn and keep up on new findings, methodology, etc.
Some observations, questions and things I don't understand...
When asked how many students are in MLB, you answer with a guy who hasn't pitched in almost 30 years and a guy who you admit chose not to stay on the program. BOF replied with an extensive list of recent MLB and college affiliations, specific number of draftees and those that topped 90 as well as a link for additional info on Jaeger.
You then tell him to "put up or shut up". I don't understand where he has not put up.
You say you won't list more players because you are on a post length watch, yet I regularly see posts from you far longer than what could amount to a very impressive player list. Again, I don't understand.
BOF states that you position your arguments suggesting that "his way is the only right way". You claim this is false - but "they are the only non-injurious force applications". Surely, you can't believe that this implies anything other than "the only right way"???.
BOF states many positives regarding Marshall teachings yet you repeatedly call him a Marshall hater... don't understand that either.
You state or strongly imply in a few different threads that the baseball establishment from HS to MLB won't allow for Marshall mechanics to be used, sometimes even releasing players because Marshall trained them. Do you really believe there is such a conspiracy?
Sorry, these are just the impressions I'm left with after reading some of your posts.
Yard,
This is coming from an innocent bystander in a nuetral corner who is always looking to learn and keep up on new findings, methodology, etc.
Some observations, questions and things I don't understand...
When asked how many students are in MLB, you answer with a guy who hasn't pitched in almost 30 years and a guy who you admit chose not to stay on the program. BOF replied with an extensive list of recent MLB and college affiliations, specific number of draftees and those that topped 90 as well as a link for additional info on Jaeger.
You then tell him to "put up or shut up". I don't understand where he has not put up.
You say you won't list more players because you are on a post length watch, yet I regularly see posts from you far longer than what could amount to a very impressive player list. Again, I don't understand.
BOF states that you position your arguments suggesting that "his way is the only right way". You claim this is false - but "they are the only non-injurious force applications". Surely, you can't believe that this implies anything other than "the only right way"???.
BOF states many positives regarding Marshall teachings yet you repeatedly call him a Marshall hater... don't understand that either.
You state or strongly imply in a few different threads that the baseball establishment from HS to MLB won't allow for Marshall mechanics to be used, sometimes even releasing players because Marshall trained them. Do you really believe there is such a conspiracy?
Sorry, these are just the impressions I'm left with after reading some of your posts.
Cabbagedad,
We need more people talking about this not less. This is an important discussion for youth athletes in particular because they are susceptible to many more injuries because of their early stages of development.
All I ever do is give my opinion on how to prevent injuries to youth players with this information. I have tested the information because of the same curiosity that you speak of in yourself.
You only need to hear each explanation as it exists to understand.
I gave 4 MLB pitchers (Marshall,Kubenca, Saenes And Sparks) that performed very well at a high level, debunking BOF’s false allegation that it could not be done with these top half mechanics. This has repeatedly been done now yet he persists. I did not give you Tommy John who Marshall re-engineered his mechanics and rehad after his surgery so he could set the record for longevity after UCL reconstruction surgery, he still holds that record.
BOF as usual gives you a list of people whom are using a “long toss” program and not the traditional injurious mechanics that Jaeger teaches. I’m willing to bet that not one College or High school coach in America needs Jaeger to form their long toss drills or Jack Lellanes surgical tubing exercises let alone buy them. BOF once stated that Jaeger worked with some pitchers on their mechanics and that is why they pitch above 100 mph when he himself knows how velosity works genetically, now this same player who he will not name is continually on the year long DL because of multiple injuries like the rest.
He is not willing to state again who these pitchers are that have used Jaegers mechanics
because of the injurious history associated with them, in the same way ASMI does not divulge their mechanics performers yet uses them in their bogus studies.
None of my posts are any longer than most when reading just what I have written to answer quotes yet I’m the one that is warned to keep it short so I do.
The ways in which the traditional force application is taught today is injurious at many junctures, Marshalls is not, that’s all I’m saying! People still have the right to use the injurious force application if they choose to but at least they have a chance to know where they can go to attain the non-injurious mechanics and the difference’s. Has nothing to do with right or wrong unless you believe like me that youth pitchers should not be using unsafe techniques “do no harm”.
BOF has only recently begun doing this yet never states what they are but then ends his statements as if he is an expert in the information that a pitcher will then not make higher levels of competition if you do. This is only true with the bottom half mechanic that is squashed at every level.
This is a lie and he knows it and I just proved it.
This is a fact! When dealing with the bottom half mechanics that are not ballistic so they can be seen. The top half mechanics that are ballistic we can perform and do but since most recruiters and scouts do not use high speed video they can not see the mechanics so they rely heavily on their radar guns. When dealing with the full version Crowstep mechanic all levels balk from LL and up.
Understand this! Dr.Marshall is the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing and the implications of injurious to non-injurious human motor movements. Do you see him working for any MLB team? Maybe because he helped start the players union and had a leading role in implementing free agency has something to do with being blackballed by owners I don’t know but I do know asking coaches to look at a different way to pitch at any level has been stopped immediately, this is a fact and takes no form really believing it
Knowing the whole story would help you in your understanding but I could care less about the story although I know it, I’m only interested in protecting youth pitchers and people like BOF ensure the continuation and confusion about the difference between injurious mechanics and safe ones.
quote:..can't believe I'm stepping into this...
We need more people talking about this not less. This is an important discussion for youth athletes in particular because they are susceptible to many more injuries because of their early stages of development.
quote:This is coming from an innocent bystander in a nuetral corner who is always looking to learn and keep up on new findings, methodology, etc.
All I ever do is give my opinion on how to prevent injuries to youth players with this information. I have tested the information because of the same curiosity that you speak of in yourself.
quote:Some observations, questions and things I don't understand...
You only need to hear each explanation as it exists to understand.
quote:When asked how many students are in MLB, you answer with a guy who hasn't pitched in almost 30 years and a guy who you admit chose not to stay on the program.
I gave 4 MLB pitchers (Marshall,Kubenca, Saenes And Sparks) that performed very well at a high level, debunking BOF’s false allegation that it could not be done with these top half mechanics. This has repeatedly been done now yet he persists. I did not give you Tommy John who Marshall re-engineered his mechanics and rehad after his surgery so he could set the record for longevity after UCL reconstruction surgery, he still holds that record.
quote:“BOF replied with an extensive list of recent MLB and college affiliations, specific number of draftees and those that topped 90 as well as a link for additional info on Jaeger.”
BOF as usual gives you a list of people whom are using a “long toss” program and not the traditional injurious mechanics that Jaeger teaches. I’m willing to bet that not one College or High school coach in America needs Jaeger to form their long toss drills or Jack Lellanes surgical tubing exercises let alone buy them. BOF once stated that Jaeger worked with some pitchers on their mechanics and that is why they pitch above 100 mph when he himself knows how velosity works genetically, now this same player who he will not name is continually on the year long DL because of multiple injuries like the rest.
quote:”You then tell him to "put up or shut up". I don't understand where he has not put up”
He is not willing to state again who these pitchers are that have used Jaegers mechanics
because of the injurious history associated with them, in the same way ASMI does not divulge their mechanics performers yet uses them in their bogus studies.
quote:”You say you won't list more players because you are on a post length watch”
None of my posts are any longer than most when reading just what I have written to answer quotes yet I’m the one that is warned to keep it short so I do.
quote:“BOF states that you position your arguments suggesting that "his way is the only right way". You claim this is false - but "they are the only non-injurious force applications". Surely, you can't believe that this implies anything other than "the only right way"???.”
The ways in which the traditional force application is taught today is injurious at many junctures, Marshalls is not, that’s all I’m saying! People still have the right to use the injurious force application if they choose to but at least they have a chance to know where they can go to attain the non-injurious mechanics and the difference’s. Has nothing to do with right or wrong unless you believe like me that youth pitchers should not be using unsafe techniques “do no harm”.
quote:“BOF states many positives regarding Marshall teachings yet you repeatedly call him a Marshall hater... don't understand that either.”
BOF has only recently begun doing this yet never states what they are but then ends his statements as if he is an expert in the information that a pitcher will then not make higher levels of competition if you do. This is only true with the bottom half mechanic that is squashed at every level.
This is a lie and he knows it and I just proved it.
quote:”You state or strongly imply in a few different threads that the baseball establishment from HS to MLB won't allow for Marshall mechanics to be used?”
This is a fact! When dealing with the bottom half mechanics that are not ballistic so they can be seen. The top half mechanics that are ballistic we can perform and do but since most recruiters and scouts do not use high speed video they can not see the mechanics so they rely heavily on their radar guns. When dealing with the full version Crowstep mechanic all levels balk from LL and up.
quote:“sometimes even releasing players because Marshall trained them. Do you really believe there is such a conspiracy?”
Understand this! Dr.Marshall is the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing and the implications of injurious to non-injurious human motor movements. Do you see him working for any MLB team? Maybe because he helped start the players union and had a leading role in implementing free agency has something to do with being blackballed by owners I don’t know but I do know asking coaches to look at a different way to pitch at any level has been stopped immediately, this is a fact and takes no form really believing it
quote:”Sorry, these are just the impressions I'm left with after reading some of your posts.”
Knowing the whole story would help you in your understanding but I could care less about the story although I know it, I’m only interested in protecting youth pitchers and people like BOF ensure the continuation and confusion about the difference between injurious mechanics and safe ones.
OK, thanks Yard, I’ll have to research further.
The player list still seems weak but I’m not going to beat a dead horse.
And this...
“People still have the right to use the injurious force application if they choose to but at least they have a chance to know where they can go to attain the non-injurious mechanics and the difference’s. Has nothing to do with right or wrong unless you believe like me that youth pitchers should not be using unsafe techniques “do no harm”.”
Saying this has nothing to do with right or wrong (in effect - you can keep doing it that way, but one way you get hurt and the other you don’t), frankly is just an insult to a person’s intelligence.
And lastly...
I’ve seen several threads here where a parent of a HS player comes to HSBBweb looking for pitching/throwing advice and you chime in with info that eventually leads to the Marshall mechanics that you are preaching.
If, as you say, all levels, LL to majors, balk at those mechanics, why would you want to put that player in that position - to suggest they work hard toward a significant mechanics change only to be told it can’t be used? I understand that you claim it to by non-injurious, but what good does that do if it can’t be used?
It seems that you would first need to work things out with those establishments before implementing with the young players who hope to work their way up the baseball ladder.
The player list still seems weak but I’m not going to beat a dead horse.
And this...
“People still have the right to use the injurious force application if they choose to but at least they have a chance to know where they can go to attain the non-injurious mechanics and the difference’s. Has nothing to do with right or wrong unless you believe like me that youth pitchers should not be using unsafe techniques “do no harm”.”
Saying this has nothing to do with right or wrong (in effect - you can keep doing it that way, but one way you get hurt and the other you don’t), frankly is just an insult to a person’s intelligence.
And lastly...
I’ve seen several threads here where a parent of a HS player comes to HSBBweb looking for pitching/throwing advice and you chime in with info that eventually leads to the Marshall mechanics that you are preaching.
If, as you say, all levels, LL to majors, balk at those mechanics, why would you want to put that player in that position - to suggest they work hard toward a significant mechanics change only to be told it can’t be used? I understand that you claim it to by non-injurious, but what good does that do if it can’t be used?
It seems that you would first need to work things out with those establishments before implementing with the young players who hope to work their way up the baseball ladder.
quote:Understand this! Dr.Marshall is the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing and the implications of injurious to non-injurious human motor movements. Do you see him working for any MLB team? Maybe because he helped start the players union and had a leading role in implementing free agency has something to do with being blackballed by owners I don’t know but I do know asking coaches to look at a different way to pitch at any level has been stopped immediately, this is a fact and takes no form really believing it
Finally, I finally understand, it is a conspiracy.
Cabbagedad,
Well, I believe in “doing no harm”. Asking fathers to train their boys with safe mechanics and explaining why in detail is easy, the decision then is left to the parents and most of the time the father says we will take our chances, see ya later. Then I see them years later and little Johnnie has had accumulative mechanical injuries and believe me I hear about all of them in our area, yet they will still press on with the injurious versions, go figure?
This is why Marshall says the fathers are incapable of protecting their boys so the mothers better get involved.
Yes as with the start of the Marshall thread that I started, remember most others here and at other sites have been totally deleted (conspiracy? No, just something else) do to personal squabbles elevating to name calling that I try to stay out of so the information can be shared. You have noticed that when others start in on the Marshall hate I move it over to the Marshall thread so not to ruin others threads.
To give children the best chance at learning how to throw from any position properly in that the Marshall full motion produces. The full Crowstep pitching mechanics are as close to an outfield throw that you can get. As they get older the acceptance then disruptions gets greater in of the Bottom half so we acquiesce and build in the hesitated leg lift by the time they reach 14 yo. The most important Top half remains intact although it is more difficult to maintain linear matches to the driveline (line between second and home running through the pitchers plate) with the hips and shoulders from the useless leg lift.
The Top half is retained the bottom half is modified.
Would it be ethical of me to go back to where I was before, teaching accepted traditional mechanics, knowing the difference?
One day one of these kids who also have learned the bottom half mechanics also will be playing at a high level and be established. At this point just like Don Larson did 5 weeks before he threw his perfect game in the world series they will switch their mechanics to Crowstep if they choose. Long term professional pitchers end up with knee, hip and back serious problems later in life is the reason for the more powerful but non-injurious bottom half mechanics that everybody balks at. I have come to believe this change will only be given a chance from the top down, not the bottom up.
While there is still complaining by opposing coaches my youth (12 yo and down) pitchers perform the full Crowstep motion if the fathers are willing and lately that’s all of them because 2 of them recently signed in the first rounds of the NFL and MLB drafts.
I have tried to explain and then implement at the higher levels but All have balked in the past to the point where they will not even look at them or let them prove themselves in scrimmages, so we turn yellow and acquiesce with some sort of useless leg lift. I wish that some of the actual HS coaches like coach May would comment but they stay away from this issue like it was the plague and I’m sure they are not part of any conspiracy.
quote:“Saying this has nothing to do with right or wrong (in effect - you can keep doing it that way, but one way you get hurt and the other you don’t), frankly is just an insult to a person’s intelligence.”
Well, I believe in “doing no harm”. Asking fathers to train their boys with safe mechanics and explaining why in detail is easy, the decision then is left to the parents and most of the time the father says we will take our chances, see ya later. Then I see them years later and little Johnnie has had accumulative mechanical injuries and believe me I hear about all of them in our area, yet they will still press on with the injurious versions, go figure?
This is why Marshall says the fathers are incapable of protecting their boys so the mothers better get involved.
quote:”I’ve seen several threads here where a parent of a HS player comes to HSBBweb looking for pitching/throwing advice and you chime in with info that eventually leads to the Marshall mechanics that you are preaching.
Yes as with the start of the Marshall thread that I started, remember most others here and at other sites have been totally deleted (conspiracy? No, just something else) do to personal squabbles elevating to name calling that I try to stay out of so the information can be shared. You have noticed that when others start in on the Marshall hate I move it over to the Marshall thread so not to ruin others threads.
quote:If, as you say, all levels, LL to majors, balk at those mechanics, why would you want to put that player in that position.
To give children the best chance at learning how to throw from any position properly in that the Marshall full motion produces. The full Crowstep pitching mechanics are as close to an outfield throw that you can get. As they get older the acceptance then disruptions gets greater in of the Bottom half so we acquiesce and build in the hesitated leg lift by the time they reach 14 yo. The most important Top half remains intact although it is more difficult to maintain linear matches to the driveline (line between second and home running through the pitchers plate) with the hips and shoulders from the useless leg lift.
quote:“to suggest they work hard toward a significant mechanics change only to be told it can’t be used?”
The Top half is retained the bottom half is modified.
quote:I understand that you claim it to by non-injurious, but what good does that do if it can’t be used?
Would it be ethical of me to go back to where I was before, teaching accepted traditional mechanics, knowing the difference?
One day one of these kids who also have learned the bottom half mechanics also will be playing at a high level and be established. At this point just like Don Larson did 5 weeks before he threw his perfect game in the world series they will switch their mechanics to Crowstep if they choose. Long term professional pitchers end up with knee, hip and back serious problems later in life is the reason for the more powerful but non-injurious bottom half mechanics that everybody balks at. I have come to believe this change will only be given a chance from the top down, not the bottom up.
quote:”It seems that you would first need to work things out with those establishments before implementing with the young players who hope to work their way up the baseball ladder.”
While there is still complaining by opposing coaches my youth (12 yo and down) pitchers perform the full Crowstep motion if the fathers are willing and lately that’s all of them because 2 of them recently signed in the first rounds of the NFL and MLB drafts.
I have tried to explain and then implement at the higher levels but All have balked in the past to the point where they will not even look at them or let them prove themselves in scrimmages, so we turn yellow and acquiesce with some sort of useless leg lift. I wish that some of the actual HS coaches like coach May would comment but they stay away from this issue like it was the plague and I’m sure they are not part of any conspiracy.
BOF,
Yet, finally you still seem to only comment on frivolous contentions by others and yourself! You do better sticking to the mechanical information not actually being able to understand the other. Not even your envolvement in having other pro-Marshall posters removed here could be considered a conspiracy, just repine whining like the rest of your snotty comments!! Give it a rest.
quote:“Finally, I finally understand, it is a conspiracy”
Yet, finally you still seem to only comment on frivolous contentions by others and yourself! You do better sticking to the mechanical information not actually being able to understand the other. Not even your envolvement in having other pro-Marshall posters removed here could be considered a conspiracy, just repine whining like the rest of your snotty comments!! Give it a rest.
Prime9,
What are the tenets that your son performs? If you don’t mind me asking.
quote:“We "gleaned" what we could from his teachings and applied what we liked to Jr.s training;”
What are the tenets that your son performs? If you don’t mind me asking.
Yard,
I will explain why I am hesitant to implement these mechanics. this is honesty and not an attack for I appreciate your comments and research.
1. Many pitchers have used what you would consider standard mechanics for many years and have not had injuries. These pitchers have pitched many innings and have had long successful careers with these mechanics. One person's motion analysis may or may not have some validity to it but many other factors go into play other than pronation and crow hops and Marshall type mechanics.
2. I would never encourage my own son or players to use Marshall mechanics that can only be used from the mound. Many of our players play other positions and cannot use these mechanics from anywhere other than the mound, without causing nueromuscular confusion.
3. As I look at the Marshall website and watched his pick-offs, they are balks and are not permissable under high school rules. Which leaves me to wonder how these could be used without players running blind on the pitcher.
4. When studying the pitching motion, so much is brought up about the pronation of pitches. If you watch pitchers throw, they all pronate. If your reach your arms out in front of you, they naturally go to the palm down position. It is a natural position and nothing new. The exception may be the curve. When I looked and Dr. Marshall teaching it, I feel it would be very easy for the batter to pick it up as the arm angle is much different than his maxline fastball.
These are just some of my observations and I may not speak for others. I see nothing wrong with looking for a better way to do things and commend you for that.
I will explain why I am hesitant to implement these mechanics. this is honesty and not an attack for I appreciate your comments and research.
1. Many pitchers have used what you would consider standard mechanics for many years and have not had injuries. These pitchers have pitched many innings and have had long successful careers with these mechanics. One person's motion analysis may or may not have some validity to it but many other factors go into play other than pronation and crow hops and Marshall type mechanics.
2. I would never encourage my own son or players to use Marshall mechanics that can only be used from the mound. Many of our players play other positions and cannot use these mechanics from anywhere other than the mound, without causing nueromuscular confusion.
3. As I look at the Marshall website and watched his pick-offs, they are balks and are not permissable under high school rules. Which leaves me to wonder how these could be used without players running blind on the pitcher.
4. When studying the pitching motion, so much is brought up about the pronation of pitches. If you watch pitchers throw, they all pronate. If your reach your arms out in front of you, they naturally go to the palm down position. It is a natural position and nothing new. The exception may be the curve. When I looked and Dr. Marshall teaching it, I feel it would be very easy for the batter to pick it up as the arm angle is much different than his maxline fastball.
These are just some of my observations and I may not speak for others. I see nothing wrong with looking for a better way to do things and commend you for that.
HSBallcoach,
Hesitant is a good way to approach any new information as I did the same thing 12 years ago. Hopefully hesitant does not mean not looking into it in depth. I tested it on myself for 2 years before I brought it to my clients.
All of these pitchers have some of the pertaining tenets mixed in and can be quantified.
Maddux powerfully pronated all of his pitches except one but his centripetal fight still left him unable to compete the next 4 days so even he had to recover the injurious aspects of the rest of his motion, like the rest. With all of the Marshall tenets you can compete (adults) every day.
If you check closely all of these pitchers have had serious injuries except a very few, even the pronounced durable Nolan Ryan was on the DL over 40 times in his career and still throwing in the mid 9’s when he blew his arm up to end his career.
I agree that all have differences in the way they perform their particular mechanics but all can perform the rudimentary first steps to avoid injuries of which pronation is the first cleanup that avoids most of the elbow problems, the next one is alignment that would greatly help HS pitchers aged pitchers eliminate shoulder problems. The Crowstep is a bottom half mechanic that alleviates bottom half injuries mostly with older adults.
This is a huge misunderstanding on your part here!!!!! All fielders use Marshalls mechanics when throwing from the field maximally. Marshall is trying to bring these mechanical timings to the mound.
This mistake you are making here is why many coaches prefer to not look into this.
Using Marshall mechanics to teach your pitchers will greatly enhance your infielders and especially the outfielders.
These mechanics have no loss in the kinetic chain> The traditional pitching motion has 4 disconnections in the Kinetic chain giving these pitchers when they move to a field position the “neuromuscular confusion” not the reverse. Remember Marshall has brought the Crowstep (full Marshall) motion to the mound.
When a HS’er uses the Full Marshall motion the pitchers step off putting them in the field totally legal, they don’t even have to throw over, you instead of studying and learning have made the mistake of watching performance video and trying to figure it out without reading the pedagogy.
The new baztardized rule only states that you can not go to first while in the wind up position with your foot on the rubber, so we get around this by stepping off, either way we are faster to first because stepping off is performed faster than the arms can swing up to be ready to throw.
You should see the runners at first, in total confusion not knowing how to time their shorter starts (they can only get 3 step lead) because a Crowstep pitcher can start his arms and still throw over to first just like a traditional lefty. This mechanic is so far superior in holding runners that it stops most games with opposing coaches complaints where the Umpires (competent) tell them that it is completely within the rules.
Yes, but you must understand that we are talking about ALL the pitches including the Curve, Slider, and Cutter fastball that are intuitively supinated with the traditional centripetal mechanics.
This is a classic mistake by you here, If you take high speed video you can see that when you voluntarily supinate a pitch that at release your forearm goes to complete range of motion supinated and then snaps back pronating involuntarily. What you are seeing in slow frame rate video is this after release snap back because there is no place for the forearm to now go, this perceived pronation is not contractive voluntary pronation.
Many in the past and even many more (MLB) now are voluntarily pronating their pitches
From the time the Humerus is in (fully outwardly rotated) position further back to be able to throw forwardly by pronating from this point. This is when pronation helps the most and why you should arrive at the back in supination fully so you can then only have one way to go forwards in pronation.
All pronation and supination are voluntary contractions, when you drop your arms down or raise them with your shoulders your forearms are in between their full range of motion in a nominal position. ASMI incorrectly measures rotation s from this mid point instead of from either full articulation to the other.
This would be a mistake corrected by watching batters actually react to these mechanics or face them live yourself. I believe this is why HS coaches do not even want to watch them scrimmage, so then they won’t have to make an unpopular decision.
All Marshalls arm vectors are from the same over the top angle “inside of vertical” “center mass axis” coming straight from the forehead from being behind the head and upper arm hidden. Then the ball either breaks to the ball arm side or the glove arm side giving the best possible deception and worst batter reaction time. You should hear some of the comments from batters that have faced this mechanic, they are faked out much easier having the ball break to either side from the center rather than always off to the side where opposite break is much more difficult from traditional centripetal mechanics.
Also remember that we sequence 6 pitches, 3 break to the ball arm side and 3 break to the glove arm side.
You are the one to be commended here, you are one of the few who have an open mind when it comes to “yard dogma” and I expect that your pitchers will actually benefit from some of the information. Remember not to get tied up with the bottom half information other than the landing patterns since nobody will accept this unaesthetic leg drive as of now.
Focus on learning how to pronate the Cutter, Slider and Curve being that pronating the pitches that break to the ball arm side are more intuitive and easier to perform and they might already be performing this way with those.
Focus on getting the ball to driveline height right when your glove arm leg lands by having the hand under the ball thumb up at the back, this will protect the UCL.
Focus on having them stay in alignment (hips and shoulders) with the field driveline.
Focus on them locking their humerus in line with their shoulder line when they arrive at driveline height to protect their shoulder joint.
Just these few things will improve their velocity, control, movement and eliminate injuriousness.
And please keep debating these issues.
quote:”I will explain why I am hesitant to implement these mechanics. this is honesty and not an attack for I appreciate your comments and research.”
Hesitant is a good way to approach any new information as I did the same thing 12 years ago. Hopefully hesitant does not mean not looking into it in depth. I tested it on myself for 2 years before I brought it to my clients.
quote:“Many pitchers have used what you would consider standard mechanics for many years and have not had injuries.”
All of these pitchers have some of the pertaining tenets mixed in and can be quantified.
Maddux powerfully pronated all of his pitches except one but his centripetal fight still left him unable to compete the next 4 days so even he had to recover the injurious aspects of the rest of his motion, like the rest. With all of the Marshall tenets you can compete (adults) every day.
quote:“These pitchers have pitched many innings and have had long successful careers with these mechanics.”
If you check closely all of these pitchers have had serious injuries except a very few, even the pronounced durable Nolan Ryan was on the DL over 40 times in his career and still throwing in the mid 9’s when he blew his arm up to end his career.
quote:“One person's motion analysis may or may not have some validity to it but many other factors go into play other than pronation and crow hops and Marshall type mechanics”
I agree that all have differences in the way they perform their particular mechanics but all can perform the rudimentary first steps to avoid injuries of which pronation is the first cleanup that avoids most of the elbow problems, the next one is alignment that would greatly help HS pitchers aged pitchers eliminate shoulder problems. The Crowstep is a bottom half mechanic that alleviates bottom half injuries mostly with older adults.
quote:“I would never encourage my own son or players to use Marshall mechanics that can only be used from the mound.”
This is a huge misunderstanding on your part here!!!!! All fielders use Marshalls mechanics when throwing from the field maximally. Marshall is trying to bring these mechanical timings to the mound.
quote:“Many of our players play other positions and cannot use these mechanics from anywhere other than the mound”
This mistake you are making here is why many coaches prefer to not look into this.
Using Marshall mechanics to teach your pitchers will greatly enhance your infielders and especially the outfielders.
quote:“without causing nueromuscular confusion”
These mechanics have no loss in the kinetic chain> The traditional pitching motion has 4 disconnections in the Kinetic chain giving these pitchers when they move to a field position the “neuromuscular confusion” not the reverse. Remember Marshall has brought the Crowstep (full Marshall) motion to the mound.
quote:“As I look at the Marshall website and watched his pick-offs, they are balks and are not permissible under high school rules”
When a HS’er uses the Full Marshall motion the pitchers step off putting them in the field totally legal, they don’t even have to throw over, you instead of studying and learning have made the mistake of watching performance video and trying to figure it out without reading the pedagogy.
The new baztardized rule only states that you can not go to first while in the wind up position with your foot on the rubber, so we get around this by stepping off, either way we are faster to first because stepping off is performed faster than the arms can swing up to be ready to throw.
quote:“Which leaves me to wonder how these could be used without players running blind on the pitcher”
You should see the runners at first, in total confusion not knowing how to time their shorter starts (they can only get 3 step lead) because a Crowstep pitcher can start his arms and still throw over to first just like a traditional lefty. This mechanic is so far superior in holding runners that it stops most games with opposing coaches complaints where the Umpires (competent) tell them that it is completely within the rules.
quote:“When studying the pitching motion, so much is brought up about the pronation of pitches.”
Yes, but you must understand that we are talking about ALL the pitches including the Curve, Slider, and Cutter fastball that are intuitively supinated with the traditional centripetal mechanics.
quote:“If you watch pitchers throw, they all pronate.”
This is a classic mistake by you here, If you take high speed video you can see that when you voluntarily supinate a pitch that at release your forearm goes to complete range of motion supinated and then snaps back pronating involuntarily. What you are seeing in slow frame rate video is this after release snap back because there is no place for the forearm to now go, this perceived pronation is not contractive voluntary pronation.
Many in the past and even many more (MLB) now are voluntarily pronating their pitches
From the time the Humerus is in (fully outwardly rotated) position further back to be able to throw forwardly by pronating from this point. This is when pronation helps the most and why you should arrive at the back in supination fully so you can then only have one way to go forwards in pronation.
quote:“If your reach your arms out in front of you, they naturally go to the palm down position. It is a natural position and nothing new”
All pronation and supination are voluntary contractions, when you drop your arms down or raise them with your shoulders your forearms are in between their full range of motion in a nominal position. ASMI incorrectly measures rotation s from this mid point instead of from either full articulation to the other.
quote:“When I looked and Dr. Marshall teaching it, I feel it would be very easy for the batter to pick it up as the arm angle is much different than his maxline fastball”
This would be a mistake corrected by watching batters actually react to these mechanics or face them live yourself. I believe this is why HS coaches do not even want to watch them scrimmage, so then they won’t have to make an unpopular decision.
All Marshalls arm vectors are from the same over the top angle “inside of vertical” “center mass axis” coming straight from the forehead from being behind the head and upper arm hidden. Then the ball either breaks to the ball arm side or the glove arm side giving the best possible deception and worst batter reaction time. You should hear some of the comments from batters that have faced this mechanic, they are faked out much easier having the ball break to either side from the center rather than always off to the side where opposite break is much more difficult from traditional centripetal mechanics.
Also remember that we sequence 6 pitches, 3 break to the ball arm side and 3 break to the glove arm side.
quote:“These are just some of my observations and I may not speak for others. I see nothing wrong with looking for a better way to do things and commend you for that.”
You are the one to be commended here, you are one of the few who have an open mind when it comes to “yard dogma” and I expect that your pitchers will actually benefit from some of the information. Remember not to get tied up with the bottom half information other than the landing patterns since nobody will accept this unaesthetic leg drive as of now.
Focus on learning how to pronate the Cutter, Slider and Curve being that pronating the pitches that break to the ball arm side are more intuitive and easier to perform and they might already be performing this way with those.
Focus on getting the ball to driveline height right when your glove arm leg lands by having the hand under the ball thumb up at the back, this will protect the UCL.
Focus on having them stay in alignment (hips and shoulders) with the field driveline.
Focus on them locking their humerus in line with their shoulder line when they arrive at driveline height to protect their shoulder joint.
Just these few things will improve their velocity, control, movement and eliminate injuriousness.
And please keep debating these issues.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Prime9,quote:“We "gleaned" what we could from his teachings and applied what we liked to Jr.s training;”
What are the tenets that your son performs? If you don’t mind me asking.
Yard; I don't mind your asking.
All the physical training to strengthen and prevent injury; wrist weights, iron ball training, football and baseball throws, 120 day program.
All physical movements that enhance direct application of force towards the target in accordance with the laws of motion.
Accept,add all movements that mirror the throwing motion from the field that can be utilized in the pitching motion.
That's it in a nutshell. None of that will require elaboration for you to understand.
regards.
Prime9,
Wow that sounds great! I was hoping he had perfected the Torque side pronated pitches?
To give him 100% pronated pitches.
Wow that sounds great! I was hoping he had perfected the Torque side pronated pitches?
To give him 100% pronated pitches.
