quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Yardbird
You need your own website so you don't use up ridiculous bandwidth here!!!
This is funny coming from you and your 19977 posts!
This is funny coming from you and your 19977 posts!
This is funny coming from you and your 19977 posts!
I naturally have thrown in a high 3/4 arm slot for most of my life. Everyone tried to get me to change when I was younger. Almost all the way up til high school. I always threw harder from the 3/4 as opposed to over the top. How do you handle this and what results have you gotten from switching people up top?
Re: "The 850 Marshall 12 YO that I was given permission to post, throws 72 MPH.. Could you tell he was that fast with that much movement from a video? You have to admit that game video is impressive! "
---No, Yardbird, his velocity doesn't look extraordinary at all and it doesn't look like low 70's, it looks like low to mid-50's to me. In any case, if you wish to believe that your "85% Amazin' 12 yo" throws at the same velocity as Jeff Sparks and Joe Williams (low-to-mid 70's--clocked with a calibrated radar gun at ASMI), then you will clearly not be dissuaded from that view by my opinion. Still, the "85% Amazin' 12 yo" would rival the top 4-5 pitchers in last year's LL World Series if you are telling the truth. That would surely make him a candidate for the single most dominant 12 yo pitcher in your entire state?
The movement on the boy's pitches was fine, but nothing "special" or "extraordinary", in my opinion.
As far as a single AB goes, it was nice that he got a strikeout in a game. Whether that is representative of most of his game results I wouldn't know but, though you are in a position to know about this, I would definitely not trust your opinion about it.
---No, Yardbird, his velocity doesn't look extraordinary at all and it doesn't look like low 70's, it looks like low to mid-50's to me. In any case, if you wish to believe that your "85% Amazin' 12 yo" throws at the same velocity as Jeff Sparks and Joe Williams (low-to-mid 70's--clocked with a calibrated radar gun at ASMI), then you will clearly not be dissuaded from that view by my opinion. Still, the "85% Amazin' 12 yo" would rival the top 4-5 pitchers in last year's LL World Series if you are telling the truth. That would surely make him a candidate for the single most dominant 12 yo pitcher in your entire state?
The movement on the boy's pitches was fine, but nothing "special" or "extraordinary", in my opinion.
As far as a single AB goes, it was nice that he got a strikeout in a game. Whether that is representative of most of his game results I wouldn't know but, though you are in a position to know about this, I would definitely not trust your opinion about it.
MTS,
You are correct; you have been making extraordinary claims about a primitive mechanic. What’s the difference? I’m OK with that, it is you who is not. I want to hear about your kids!
I have proved that it does work and you saying it does not make any sense!
Go back and really take in what Drew is doing, watch how radically he pronates even with his flaws in these theoretical mechanics, His bending at the waist, his not stepping open enough on the maxline pitches and only getting mid late rotation instead of full.
Laflippen,
Nobody here knows who Joe Williams is why would they be interested in your issues?
Give him the ball. Are you not a little curious to find out if it works even with you’re perceived lower velocity?
This video was posted by the young boys father, how you going to get people to believe you when you can’t get anything right.
I just read all of those comments from both sides and think that it is admirable of Joe W. to defend the hateful comments about a 12 year old trying to play the game the way he wants to. This thing really gets people riled up just seeing it. Just read the comments of people who have your attitude. Would you give the boy the ball?
This does seem to be your style, why?
I did not suggest! that full Marshall pitchers are not given the ball, it is fact born out at all levels.
And why would you suggest he is not still friendly with him?, you have no ties to this information.
Like I said Joe had the best try out of all the pitchers there. Give him the ball then we will see, are you so afraid that he will be effective to not even give him a shot like all who has come across it before?
Now you are flat out lying here, Marshalls only comment was he thought the friendship was two ways instead of one , especially when Marshall helped T.J. rehab himself. Big whoop. You can sure pore on the exaggerations!
Again lying here only makes you look bad, Fleisig was not excoriated for conducting this study, Marshall brought them there. He was admonished for being a quitter when he realized Marshall was right on with his critique of ASMI’s many mistakes in the research protocol and report that was built around measuring traditional mechanics. You do not need to make things up, this is not a good idea for you personally because anybody can go and read exactly what happened and what was said at Marshall’s web site for free.
Your quixotic mission seems to be a bit angry, are you still miffed that your intellectual hat was handed to you at the hands of Marshall when you e-mailed him several times with the same tenor you use here? Some people really have revenge issues to overcome.
What does all this have to do with mechanics anyway? I wish you could just talk about the mechanical issues that are very important to youth pitchers. This constant lying about Marshall is fruitless, whom are you talking to? It sure is not me, yet you answer my posts with comments that have nothing to do with what we are talking about and it is never in a positive light. I know what has been said and done in the past and it never matches up with what you are selling here.
OK, now back to mechanics!!
Oh, Jeez, venting always leads to miss communications!!
I wonder if the rest of the readers made the same mistakes as you keep making!? I don’t think so! I did not post the “amazing” 12 Yo’s video his dad does and in High frame rate for all of us to study, a big thank you is all he deserves.
I asked you to look at my 12 year old Drew who is not the “named amazing” even though he has fast twitch velocity. The actual “Amazing” you have apparently missed represented does throw 55 as his father honestly reported, the reason he is amazing is because he is the first one to actually perform Dr.Marshalls theoretical call out “Full late rotation” that even my pitcher does not attain hence his 850 rating nor does any of Marshall’s traditional rebuilds, Amazing can be considered a 925 because he has some mechanical flaws still but is the best in the world for full Marshall mechanics. I think he proves what Marshall has been theorizing now for quite a while, Quite impressive if you ask me!
If you are talking about my pitcher you are correct Sir, when he was 11 he struck out 200 Batters in his LL spring season, the next year we decided it would be a better course if he did not play his 12 YO LL year because he gained another 7 MPH and would have K’d everybody so he was moved up to 13 YO club ball where he still dominated,
You need to go back and read slowly this whole thread if you want to keep up because these explanations of non mechanics cause to mush band width use and personal animosity apparently?
Here is the link I was talking about that you missed, lets take a fools pole (because guessing at video velocity is that game) and see what everybody else thinks about his velocity, I know what it is and it’s a lot higher now that was a year and a 1/2 ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE0xaaItzl0
Imagine if he was throwing his fastball straight!!
What is greatest about Marshall’s material is it allows non-genetically gifted (for pitch speed) athletes to compete with the genetically gifted; I have film of these kids also.
You should see the LL ers flailing away at screwball, pronated curves, Sinkers, cutters and fastballs. They have a great experience and a lot of fun.
Your paranoia is in the realm of cultists that you accused me of, I understand, maybe in time you will come to trust me, I have the same effect on dogs until they get to know me,
So why all the Wolf tickets?
Pastime
Trnmnts,
I pitched and threw from all vectors but was at ¾ most of the time and threw my curve from straight over the top and never hurt my arm but did have inflammation after every long game. I started coaching HS ball out of College and continued to throw every day since along with doing private lessons where I would give live BP after the batters motor skill drills I still felt fine. When I turned 43 YO I started getting very bad pains in the elbow and ended up with a bursa tear (the Bursa is a sack around the elbow that contains fluid) where my elbow ballooned up twice its size. I did not go to the Dr. for a couple of days because there was no pain, the fluid leak turned septic and I ended up in the hospital. The Dr. there told me one more day and you could have died, I thaught, you got to be kidding me, a pitching injury that can kill you. He said yes and just like any operation, it can actually kill you, he said hip replacement operations have killed people many times. I conversed with Marshall because at that time he was the only one who claimed he knew what my problems stemmed from and all other pitching injuries. So I changed a few things, which was hard at first, but within a month all my pain went away and I started to pitch every day instead of every 4. At 55 now I throw every day between 600 and 1200 pitches with about 1/3 at maximal effort.
Without knowing why exactly they were telling you the right thing!!!!!
Generally speaking most of us pitching coaches through time came to believe that the ¾
Arm vector always lead to high side arm vector, which leads to more severe pain and injury. It has always been a battle to keep the Elbow upwards.
We never had guns available back then and never knew how fast we were throwing
Every mechanical change takes a long time to make the physiological adjustment especially with the traditionally trained pitchers like me and the older you are the more proprioceptivly (muscle memory) ingrained you are, this is why children perform Full Marshall much better than a traditional pitcher trying to make the change. If you are making only the top half change it takes less time but it is much harder to eliminate the "early over rotation" that is a gateway to arm and shoulder injuries!
I have found that at first there is a period of awkwardness that goes away once you get the rhythm correct, at this point the velocities remain about the same but now the rigorous specific training that you can perform that you cannot perform with traditional mechanics allows you to gain more velocity and potentially even higher velocity.
The problem with center mass drivelines using Marshall’s pitches is all perception because the movement increases with the fast balls (middle finger off to one side or the other slightly) and velocity under these circumstances will decrease. Because recruiters and scouts are all hung up on velocity I teach my 17 and ups to throw straighter (middle finger straight up, don’t go there Deemax) when throwing for the gun and go back to movement when throwing to get batters out that they can do at any time.
So far the results have been fantastic since before when I was traditional I would never let youth pitchers throw Cutters or sliders because of the injurious affects. I would never throw them either but now I can to my College Batters, what a difference!!
quote:“Yardbird, I haven't made any extraordinary claims with a new pitching mechanic.”
You are correct; you have been making extraordinary claims about a primitive mechanic. What’s the difference? I’m OK with that, it is you who is not. I want to hear about your kids!
quote:“that doesn't work as you have.”
I have proved that it does work and you saying it does not make any sense!
Go back and really take in what Drew is doing, watch how radically he pronates even with his flaws in these theoretical mechanics, His bending at the waist, his not stepping open enough on the maxline pitches and only getting mid late rotation instead of full.
Laflippen,
quote:“For those interested”
Nobody here knows who Joe Williams is why would they be interested in your issues?
Give him the ball. Are you not a little curious to find out if it works even with you’re perceived lower velocity?
quote:“He posts Marshall video clips on YouTube”
This video was posted by the young boys father, how you going to get people to believe you when you can’t get anything right.
I just read all of those comments from both sides and think that it is admirable of Joe W. to defend the hateful comments about a 12 year old trying to play the game the way he wants to. This thing really gets people riled up just seeing it. Just read the comments of people who have your attitude. Would you give the boy the ball?
quote:“people who make nasty comments”
This does seem to be your style, why?
quote:“Although Yardbird tries to suggest that no one will give the Marshall jokers the ball,”
I did not suggest! that full Marshall pitchers are not given the ball, it is fact born out at all levels.
quote:“Marshall's former friend,”
And why would you suggest he is not still friendly with him?, you have no ties to this information.
quote:“couldn't do enough with the ball to make the team roster.”
Like I said Joe had the best try out of all the pitchers there. Give him the ball then we will see, are you so afraid that he will be effective to not even give him a shot like all who has come across it before?
quote:“For that, Tommy John was excoriated on Marshall's website”
Now you are flat out lying here, Marshalls only comment was he thought the friendship was two ways instead of one , especially when Marshall helped T.J. rehab himself. Big whoop. You can sure pore on the exaggerations!
quote:“excoriate Dr. Glenn Fleisig for carrying out a careful and accurate study of his pitchers.”
Again lying here only makes you look bad, Fleisig was not excoriated for conducting this study, Marshall brought them there. He was admonished for being a quitter when he realized Marshall was right on with his critique of ASMI’s many mistakes in the research protocol and report that was built around measuring traditional mechanics. You do not need to make things up, this is not a good idea for you personally because anybody can go and read exactly what happened and what was said at Marshall’s web site for free.
quote:”I can understand why this quixotic mission”
Your quixotic mission seems to be a bit angry, are you still miffed that your intellectual hat was handed to you at the hands of Marshall when you e-mailed him several times with the same tenor you use here? Some people really have revenge issues to overcome.
What does all this have to do with mechanics anyway? I wish you could just talk about the mechanical issues that are very important to youth pitchers. This constant lying about Marshall is fruitless, whom are you talking to? It sure is not me, yet you answer my posts with comments that have nothing to do with what we are talking about and it is never in a positive light. I know what has been said and done in the past and it never matches up with what you are selling here.
OK, now back to mechanics!!
Oh, Jeez, venting always leads to miss communications!!
quote:“---No, Yardbird, his velocity doesn't look extraordinary at all and it doesn't look like low 70's, it looks like low to mid-50's to me. In any case, if you wish to believe that your "85% Amazin' 12 yo"
I wonder if the rest of the readers made the same mistakes as you keep making!? I don’t think so! I did not post the “amazing” 12 Yo’s video his dad does and in High frame rate for all of us to study, a big thank you is all he deserves.
I asked you to look at my 12 year old Drew who is not the “named amazing” even though he has fast twitch velocity. The actual “Amazing” you have apparently missed represented does throw 55 as his father honestly reported, the reason he is amazing is because he is the first one to actually perform Dr.Marshalls theoretical call out “Full late rotation” that even my pitcher does not attain hence his 850 rating nor does any of Marshall’s traditional rebuilds, Amazing can be considered a 925 because he has some mechanical flaws still but is the best in the world for full Marshall mechanics. I think he proves what Marshall has been theorizing now for quite a while, Quite impressive if you ask me!
quote:"85% Amazin' 12 yo" would rival the top 4-5 pitchers in last year's LL World Series if you are telling the truth. That would surely make him a candidate for the single most dominant 12 yo pitcher in your entire state? “
If you are talking about my pitcher you are correct Sir, when he was 11 he struck out 200 Batters in his LL spring season, the next year we decided it would be a better course if he did not play his 12 YO LL year because he gained another 7 MPH and would have K’d everybody so he was moved up to 13 YO club ball where he still dominated,
You need to go back and read slowly this whole thread if you want to keep up because these explanations of non mechanics cause to mush band width use and personal animosity apparently?
Here is the link I was talking about that you missed, lets take a fools pole (because guessing at video velocity is that game) and see what everybody else thinks about his velocity, I know what it is and it’s a lot higher now that was a year and a 1/2 ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE0xaaItzl0
Imagine if he was throwing his fastball straight!!
quote:”The movement on the boy's pitches was fine, but nothing "special" or "extraordinary", in my opinion”
What is greatest about Marshall’s material is it allows non-genetically gifted (for pitch speed) athletes to compete with the genetically gifted; I have film of these kids also.
You should see the LL ers flailing away at screwball, pronated curves, Sinkers, cutters and fastballs. They have a great experience and a lot of fun.
quote:“I would definitely not trust your opinion about it”
Your paranoia is in the realm of cultists that you accused me of, I understand, maybe in time you will come to trust me, I have the same effect on dogs until they get to know me,
So why all the Wolf tickets?
Pastime
Trnmnts,
quote:“I naturally have thrown in a high 3/4 arm slot for most of my life”
I pitched and threw from all vectors but was at ¾ most of the time and threw my curve from straight over the top and never hurt my arm but did have inflammation after every long game. I started coaching HS ball out of College and continued to throw every day since along with doing private lessons where I would give live BP after the batters motor skill drills I still felt fine. When I turned 43 YO I started getting very bad pains in the elbow and ended up with a bursa tear (the Bursa is a sack around the elbow that contains fluid) where my elbow ballooned up twice its size. I did not go to the Dr. for a couple of days because there was no pain, the fluid leak turned septic and I ended up in the hospital. The Dr. there told me one more day and you could have died, I thaught, you got to be kidding me, a pitching injury that can kill you. He said yes and just like any operation, it can actually kill you, he said hip replacement operations have killed people many times. I conversed with Marshall because at that time he was the only one who claimed he knew what my problems stemmed from and all other pitching injuries. So I changed a few things, which was hard at first, but within a month all my pain went away and I started to pitch every day instead of every 4. At 55 now I throw every day between 600 and 1200 pitches with about 1/3 at maximal effort.
quote:“Everyone tried to get me to change when I was younger”
Without knowing why exactly they were telling you the right thing!!!!!
quote:“Almost all the way up til high school.”
Generally speaking most of us pitching coaches through time came to believe that the ¾
Arm vector always lead to high side arm vector, which leads to more severe pain and injury. It has always been a battle to keep the Elbow upwards.
quote:“I always threw harder from the 3/4 as opposed to over the top”
We never had guns available back then and never knew how fast we were throwing
quote:“ How do you handle this and what results have you gotten from switching people up top?”
Every mechanical change takes a long time to make the physiological adjustment especially with the traditionally trained pitchers like me and the older you are the more proprioceptivly (muscle memory) ingrained you are, this is why children perform Full Marshall much better than a traditional pitcher trying to make the change. If you are making only the top half change it takes less time but it is much harder to eliminate the "early over rotation" that is a gateway to arm and shoulder injuries!
I have found that at first there is a period of awkwardness that goes away once you get the rhythm correct, at this point the velocities remain about the same but now the rigorous specific training that you can perform that you cannot perform with traditional mechanics allows you to gain more velocity and potentially even higher velocity.
The problem with center mass drivelines using Marshall’s pitches is all perception because the movement increases with the fast balls (middle finger off to one side or the other slightly) and velocity under these circumstances will decrease. Because recruiters and scouts are all hung up on velocity I teach my 17 and ups to throw straighter (middle finger straight up, don’t go there Deemax) when throwing for the gun and go back to movement when throwing to get batters out that they can do at any time.
So far the results have been fantastic since before when I was traditional I would never let youth pitchers throw Cutters or sliders because of the injurious affects. I would never throw them either but now I can to my College Batters, what a difference!!
This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Yardbird, Kharma, Marshall, Fastball what ever your name is today, your mechnics don't work. The mechanics you are trying to force us to accept are not natural and are not intuitive. You actually have to learn to throw that way. And you guys still can't throw after the 720 724 day program. Today I taught a kid how to throw accurately and with pop. He went from shotputting to throwing in 5 minutes.
MTS,
You are confusing 3 right coasters for 1 left coaster here.
You are repeating yourself, now I have to darn it, Lets agree that you do not believe these mechanics work?
I’m only asking that you look in to it for the kids!!
You can lead a man to the Kool-aid but you can’t make him drink it.
Then why do outfielders and left side infielders throw this way and children under 4, it sounds intuitive to me.
You have to learn how to throw by anyway as proved by you’re instructions with that track athlete.
Atta boy MTS, did you teach him to take the shot put out of his glove down then back with his thumb down or up?
How in the heck did his catch partner deal with catching the Shot put before you got to the 5 min mark?
quote:“Yardbird, Kharma, Marshall, Fastball what ever your name is today”
You are confusing 3 right coasters for 1 left coaster here.
quote:“your mechnics don't work.”
You are repeating yourself, now I have to darn it, Lets agree that you do not believe these mechanics work?
quote:“The mechanics you are trying to force us to accept”
I’m only asking that you look in to it for the kids!!
You can lead a man to the Kool-aid but you can’t make him drink it.
quote:“are not natural and are not intuitive.”
Then why do outfielders and left side infielders throw this way and children under 4, it sounds intuitive to me.
quote:“You actually have to learn to throw that way.”
You have to learn how to throw by anyway as proved by you’re instructions with that track athlete.
quote:“Today I taught a kid how to throw accurately and with pop.”
Atta boy MTS, did you teach him to take the shot put out of his glove down then back with his thumb down or up?
quote:“He went from shotputting to throwing in 5 minutes.”
How in the heck did his catch partner deal with catching the Shot put before you got to the 5 min mark?
That is incorrect. You guys don't throw like outfielders. You guys can barely throw 180 feet. You should check out the Jaeger guys, they throw upwards of 300 feet.
I walked forward a few steps, bent my knees, then reached down and picked the ball up off the ground. His shot-put throws were barely going 10 feet. Shortly after showing him how to throw the way normal people throw he was throwing 60-80 feet. I had him do small, medium, and large arm circles to warm him up before throwing.
quote:quote:
“He went from shotputting to throwing in 5 minutes.”
How in the heck did his catch partner deal with catching the Shot put before you got to the 5 min mark?
I walked forward a few steps, bent my knees, then reached down and picked the ball up off the ground. His shot-put throws were barely going 10 feet. Shortly after showing him how to throw the way normal people throw he was throwing 60-80 feet. I had him do small, medium, and large arm circles to warm him up before throwing.
http://www.youtube.com/user/fastbal95
Video for your viewing pleasure, courtesy of fastbal95 (aka: Joe Williams).
Yardbird, as I said before, Joe williams appears to spend his time posting video of Marshall pitchers and then ranting and raving at the people who make nasty comments about them. Reading through the verbal abuse that he deals out is amusing, but it is no substitute for dealing out good pitches from a mound....he appears to be all talk and no performance, a definite trademark of Marshall's students and coaches. Too bad about those dummies that run the Bridgeport BlueFish--you'd think they would have the sense to put their stand-out ace onto the regular season roster, wouldn't you. Gosh, there must be a baseball conspiracy against Mike Marshall!
The "85% Amazin' 12 yo" was indeed a reference to your 12 yo--the boy whose video clip shows one AB, ending on a strikeout. As said, average-looking velocity for a 12 yo (i.e., not low 70's as you claim, but rather looks to be in mid-50's) and nice movement on some of the pitches--but nothing out of the ordinary for a 12 yo who throws breaking pitches. I've seen better and worse--he looks real average in that department, too. At least he's not obviously shackled by these mechanics, yet, as Jeff Sparks, Joe "fastbal95" Williams, and Mike Farrenkopf appear to be. Topping out at mid 70's, as those guys did when pitching from a mound at ASMI, well, that's just not too hot...
On the basis of Glenn Fleisig's ASMI careful study of Marshall mechanics, I am concerned that your kid, and all other Marshall pitchers, may eventually suffer stress-related injuries to the elbow and/or shoulder. Just because Mike Marshall says his pitchers can never be injured doesn't make it true...most of them don't show enough control, even at their low velocity, to pitch competitively. Under those circumstances it may take some time for Marshall-related arm/shouder injuries to manifest. You should be concerned about this, Yardbird, after all, Dr. Fleisig is a highly respected biomechanist with outstanding research credentials--he is not a pompous flake on a mission to prove that he is the only person on Earth who knows anything about baseball pitching (i.e., like Marshall...get it?).
Video for your viewing pleasure, courtesy of fastbal95 (aka: Joe Williams).
Yardbird, as I said before, Joe williams appears to spend his time posting video of Marshall pitchers and then ranting and raving at the people who make nasty comments about them. Reading through the verbal abuse that he deals out is amusing, but it is no substitute for dealing out good pitches from a mound....he appears to be all talk and no performance, a definite trademark of Marshall's students and coaches. Too bad about those dummies that run the Bridgeport BlueFish--you'd think they would have the sense to put their stand-out ace onto the regular season roster, wouldn't you. Gosh, there must be a baseball conspiracy against Mike Marshall!
The "85% Amazin' 12 yo" was indeed a reference to your 12 yo--the boy whose video clip shows one AB, ending on a strikeout. As said, average-looking velocity for a 12 yo (i.e., not low 70's as you claim, but rather looks to be in mid-50's) and nice movement on some of the pitches--but nothing out of the ordinary for a 12 yo who throws breaking pitches. I've seen better and worse--he looks real average in that department, too. At least he's not obviously shackled by these mechanics, yet, as Jeff Sparks, Joe "fastbal95" Williams, and Mike Farrenkopf appear to be. Topping out at mid 70's, as those guys did when pitching from a mound at ASMI, well, that's just not too hot...
On the basis of Glenn Fleisig's ASMI careful study of Marshall mechanics, I am concerned that your kid, and all other Marshall pitchers, may eventually suffer stress-related injuries to the elbow and/or shoulder. Just because Mike Marshall says his pitchers can never be injured doesn't make it true...most of them don't show enough control, even at their low velocity, to pitch competitively. Under those circumstances it may take some time for Marshall-related arm/shouder injuries to manifest. You should be concerned about this, Yardbird, after all, Dr. Fleisig is a highly respected biomechanist with outstanding research credentials--he is not a pompous flake on a mission to prove that he is the only person on Earth who knows anything about baseball pitching (i.e., like Marshall...get it?).
The all important transition
The inside game of over center projection in Javelin, Cricket, badminton, Tennis, Quarterbacking, Baseball field throwing and pitching has evolved towards throwing off of the center of body rotation with your center of mass being projected centered in linear direction. This means at initial forward force the arms, glove and ball must have arrived into linear centering by getting their pendulum swing centered also. The only way directional centering at drive from initial drive to end drive can be achieved is by the ball arrival and proper humeral upper rotation with shoulder alignment then locking at the start of initial forward force. This is the critical mechanic that differentiates the Marshall driveline and field throwing from traditional pitching drivelines; this critical difference is worth up to 300 points when calculating the MTS. From this start the all-important transition can occur.
The main difference in the Marshall top-half mechanic and the traditional one is in the
transition at the back where with the traditional motion the pitcher brings his hand up with his elbow above the hand with the hand on top of the ball, this action leads to the transitional turnover being late, loopy, centripetal and all the rotational energy is wasted into a bad loading position on bone to bone connective tissue UCL instead of muscle to tendon to bone to joint forward to the next muscle and so on Kinetically linked. This incorrect force application leads to then wasted early energy transfer when the elbow comes around then forward as the ball is actually going backwards from “forearm bounce” causing UCL degradation and a shorter drive force and rotational deceleration at ball forward drive. Unfortunately traditional pitching philosophy dictates that the “pie throwing” position is not the way to bring it back and up so this all-important transition cannot be attained.
When the hand is brought up with the thumb up or underneath it gives you a chance to
To fully supinate as far back as you can reach so that you can transition into pronation at initial drive from this farthest back initial force position thru to the finish. From this starting position comes all of the other beneficial linear drive possibilities (velocity and deception) and reductions with injurious drive mechanics and finish mechanics.
This transition is best and most sinuously produced with the Marshall pitch a cutter called the Torque fastball where the hand is driven in the most powerful pronated position creating powerful safe pronation snap from a radial flexed wrist and pronated forearm extension. You should see my High schoolers (16 thru 19 biologically aged) throw the 6 lb ladies shot put with maximal effort with this particular pitch, now that is getting strong specifically.
The inside game of over center projection in Javelin, Cricket, badminton, Tennis, Quarterbacking, Baseball field throwing and pitching has evolved towards throwing off of the center of body rotation with your center of mass being projected centered in linear direction. This means at initial forward force the arms, glove and ball must have arrived into linear centering by getting their pendulum swing centered also. The only way directional centering at drive from initial drive to end drive can be achieved is by the ball arrival and proper humeral upper rotation with shoulder alignment then locking at the start of initial forward force. This is the critical mechanic that differentiates the Marshall driveline and field throwing from traditional pitching drivelines; this critical difference is worth up to 300 points when calculating the MTS. From this start the all-important transition can occur.
The main difference in the Marshall top-half mechanic and the traditional one is in the
transition at the back where with the traditional motion the pitcher brings his hand up with his elbow above the hand with the hand on top of the ball, this action leads to the transitional turnover being late, loopy, centripetal and all the rotational energy is wasted into a bad loading position on bone to bone connective tissue UCL instead of muscle to tendon to bone to joint forward to the next muscle and so on Kinetically linked. This incorrect force application leads to then wasted early energy transfer when the elbow comes around then forward as the ball is actually going backwards from “forearm bounce” causing UCL degradation and a shorter drive force and rotational deceleration at ball forward drive. Unfortunately traditional pitching philosophy dictates that the “pie throwing” position is not the way to bring it back and up so this all-important transition cannot be attained.
When the hand is brought up with the thumb up or underneath it gives you a chance to
To fully supinate as far back as you can reach so that you can transition into pronation at initial drive from this farthest back initial force position thru to the finish. From this starting position comes all of the other beneficial linear drive possibilities (velocity and deception) and reductions with injurious drive mechanics and finish mechanics.
This transition is best and most sinuously produced with the Marshall pitch a cutter called the Torque fastball where the hand is driven in the most powerful pronated position creating powerful safe pronation snap from a radial flexed wrist and pronated forearm extension. You should see my High schoolers (16 thru 19 biologically aged) throw the 6 lb ladies shot put with maximal effort with this particular pitch, now that is getting strong specifically.
We saw a guy throwing like this yesterday. I almost thought he was a Marshall pitcher with mixed mechanics, but realized he was just a pitcher with poor mechanics (same difference). He had no velocity. We scored 9 runs off of him.
quote:You should see my High schoolers (16 thru 19 biologically aged) throw the 6 lb ladies shot put with maximal effort
----------Why? Do your guys often beat the ladies in this competition?
Your last post was, I must say, a very valiant effort to compose an impressive sounding rationale for Marshall Mechanics out of phony techno-speak.
Unfortunately, none of it means anything. If your High Schoolers could pitch effectively with Marshall Mechanics, some of them would enjoy enough pitching success to be noticed. (By someone other than you.)
A considerable part of the news media feeds and thrives off of the bizarre and controversial. If there was even a shred of evidence that Marshall's crack-pot mechanics were anywhere near as effective as traditional mechanics for baseball pitching, that story could not possibly be suppressed. That story would sell and that story would get plenty of exposure.
However, the Marshall Mechanics story has no "legs" because it is a pipe-dream. Neither Joe Williams or Jeff Sparks, both touted by Mike Marshall as pretty near able to walk on water, were able to earn roster spots on an obscure indie team, the Bridgeport BlueFish. This, despite the fact that Marshall's (former) friend managed the team and gave them a chance to prove themselves.
There is no evidence that using Marshall Mechanics is an effective way to pitch, so exposure (for example, the Fleisig study at ASMI) just leads to more cycles of embarrassment, spin control, and more foolish assertions.
Does anybody know any Marshall pitchers in Phoenix, AZ? I would love to watch one.
Yardbird. This is where you lose all credibility. Implying that the traditional arm path is so ineffective has been proven for 100 years to be categorically false. I can believe you/Marshall about the safety aspects but when you start on the ineffectiveness because of your theoretical ideals not being met, you lose it badly. 100 mph isn't easy but it's been achieved many times with this oh so ineffective motion. How many Marshall pitchers have reached that level?quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
This incorrect force application leads to then wasted early energy transfer when the elbow comes around then forward as the ball is actually going backwards from “forearm bounce” causing ... a shorter drive force and rotational deceleration at ball forward drive.
You'd be better off sticking with the safety talk and the alleged positives of the straighter driveline (drive "plane"?) and refrain from the statements of how the traditional arm path is so ineffective. Injurious, yes, but ineffective, not on your life.
Hey Yardbird, the kid you were gushing over was throwing from 54 feet.
MTS .... Wasn't there a Marshall protege at Arizona? I just looked at the roster and believe he's gone. I can't remember his specific name but would recognize it if seeing it.quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Does anybody know any Marshall pitchers in Phoenix, AZ? I would love to watch one.
He's still there; just not getting any love.
Will I find him if I look at the bottom of the ERA stats?
No. He has fewest innings.
Waph2uoS,
Because he speaks and has a Doctorate in the subject for that he talks, this is easy to understand, do you understand now?
Sure he did!!! You do not recognize the top half mechanics like most because it is so fast with the available technology that you get, understanding ballistic mechanics is only as good as your diagnostic equipment.
This is completely understandable and you are correct with the limitations you have displayed
How would you know that? You do not understand them also do you think MLB pitchers share information about what they do to get guys out, don’t bet on it. Who would benefit monetarily most by reading Marshall’s web site? Do you think they are Internet challenged? They have taken huge leaps forwards towards Marshall tenets in the last 5 years with many.
I believe the one that invented this process still hold many relief records after 40 years and one of his protégés when given the chance struck out 600 batters in the MiLB and with his cup a coffee struck out 41 in 30 innings in the MLB that’s 1.4 k's out of every inning, I wonder what the strike out ratio record is in the MLB? You need to have facts before you spread bad information, can you name the other MLB and MiLB pitchers he trained?
MTS,
What is a Marshall “type” pitcher? I have explained to you what the meaning of MTS is; yet you still do not understand! ? What gives? Maybe your long standing hatred of a man you don’t even know because he told you the truth is getting the best of you. Just consider it.
Understand forearm drive orientation, humeral early transition and many more then you will have a better chance of diagnosing pitching and throwing.
I should be even with out your negative imagination!, his correct theories have ruined the pitching end of my business!!!! I’ll leave the hate to you and yours.
Knowing what I know now it would be unethical to go back to traditional and knowing most think like you and only recognize the bottom half because it is so slow and obvious. I now receive many of the youth disabled list in our area and out of it because I return them with healthy force application and the coaches are starting to send them to me knowing I am “that Marshall guy”, now if only the mothers would tale over the sports training I would then again get them before they are taught how to degrade themselves.
quote:“I don't understand why people listen to him”
Because he speaks and has a Doctorate in the subject for that he talks, this is easy to understand, do you understand now?
quote:“he never practiced what he preached”
Sure he did!!! You do not recognize the top half mechanics like most because it is so fast with the available technology that you get, understanding ballistic mechanics is only as good as your diagnostic equipment.
quote:“ I can count on one hand the amount of pitchers there have been in the MLB that even resembled his teachings”
This is completely understandable and you are correct with the limitations you have displayed
quote:“let alone anyone who was actually successful in the big leagues”
How would you know that? You do not understand them also do you think MLB pitchers share information about what they do to get guys out, don’t bet on it. Who would benefit monetarily most by reading Marshall’s web site? Do you think they are Internet challenged? They have taken huge leaps forwards towards Marshall tenets in the last 5 years with many.
I believe the one that invented this process still hold many relief records after 40 years and one of his protégés when given the chance struck out 600 batters in the MiLB and with his cup a coffee struck out 41 in 30 innings in the MLB that’s 1.4 k's out of every inning, I wonder what the strike out ratio record is in the MLB? You need to have facts before you spread bad information, can you name the other MLB and MiLB pitchers he trained?
MTS,
quote:“Your pitcher is not a Marshall type pitcher”
What is a Marshall “type” pitcher? I have explained to you what the meaning of MTS is; yet you still do not understand! ? What gives? Maybe your long standing hatred of a man you don’t even know because he told you the truth is getting the best of you. Just consider it.
quote:“You "Taught him this" and yet you spout Marshall mechanics”
Understand forearm drive orientation, humeral early transition and many more then you will have a better chance of diagnosing pitching and throwing.
quote:“Seems you may be the Marshall hater”
I should be even with out your negative imagination!, his correct theories have ruined the pitching end of my business!!!! I’ll leave the hate to you and yours.
Knowing what I know now it would be unethical to go back to traditional and knowing most think like you and only recognize the bottom half because it is so slow and obvious. I now receive many of the youth disabled list in our area and out of it because I return them with healthy force application and the coaches are starting to send them to me knowing I am “that Marshall guy”, now if only the mothers would tale over the sports training I would then again get them before they are taught how to degrade themselves.
41 K's in 30 innings is nowhere near 3/4, its more towards 1/3. This is not difficult math. I'm dropping arguing this because its a moot point. You clearly are set in your ways and I see no reason why people should turn to Marshall's mechanics, so arguing this is pointless.
waph2uoS,
I was somewhat set in my ways for 25 years of teaching the traditional mechanics
I agree here, you see no reason.
Yes, but pointing out the traditional flaws will help some young coach or player if we discuss these issues.
MTS,
Valiant try! Glad to see you are still in the game but you have gotten these physiological tenets wrong again.
I pretty much know what they mean! You are the one using the yard term “stretch” not me! Then not putting together the timeline in which they are used.
Yes, this is how the often-manifested injury at the obliques is attained, and then the separation you see is lost later long before the ball is actually going forwards.
So do all professors in Kinesiology! They use the term contraction from full length and the word stretch has no meaning here. Only laymen who pretend to know how physiology works by making ignorant comments about it and then repeated by all get this wrong. Muscle cells do not stretch, they are finite length material and if stretched after attaining full length will rupture.
The confusion comes from the “theory” of “stretch shortening cycle” that has a completely different meaning than the poor choice of words used to describe this theoretical phenomenon neural auto firing at bounce after full length has been achieved.
Yes, contract from full length
Who said the triceps is acting alone? Lincecum actually uses his triceps unlike traditional pitchers with their late humeral transition. When traditional pitchers should be using their Triceps they are actually firing off the antagonist muscle the Brachialis that is always miss-diagnosed as bicep tendonitis and their Pechtoralis as the primary mover where Tim and Tyler are using their Latissimus dorsi instead of the Peck’s as their primary mover.
It does not “help” initiate it! It initiates it and at frame 88 not 130.
At 130 the ball actually starts heading towards home plate, notice the hips have already been spent and the torso has caught back up with the hips loosing all the previous length that puts this part of the actual drive mechanism exactly the same as Marshall’s but at a later timeline.
This separation is actually used up in turning over his humerus (humeral/forearm transition) outwardly then when the shoulders catch back up with the hips the ball then starts homewards bound by then inwardly rotating the humerus, this action is where Marshall wants to see it and Tim and Tyler both produce it although not as far back as he wants but better than traditional pitchers.
The only reason Tim and Tyler have superior velocity is they poses a higher percentage of fast twitch type II A and B muscles fibers. I wish you would believe me but it really does not matter! You have been told this many times but do not seem to understand this simple physiological tenet.
Marshall is not the cause of their superior genetics and nobody has said he was.
By getting this confused with calling out kinesiological aspects of the baseball pitching motion in any form shows you just keep getting things more and more confused.
quote:“You clearly are set in your ways”
I was somewhat set in my ways for 25 years of teaching the traditional mechanics
quote:“I see no reason why people should turn to Marshall's mechanics”
I agree here, you see no reason.
quote:“so arguing this is pointless”
Yes, but pointing out the traditional flaws will help some young coach or player if we discuss these issues.
MTS,
Valiant try! Glad to see you are still in the game but you have gotten these physiological tenets wrong again.
quote:“Yardbird you throw a bunch of words together with out even knowing what they mean”
I pretty much know what they mean! You are the one using the yard term “stretch” not me! Then not putting together the timeline in which they are used.
quote:“Pitchers like Lincecum pre-stretch the muscles of the core (Frame 88)”
Yes, this is how the often-manifested injury at the obliques is attained, and then the separation you see is lost later long before the ball is actually going forwards.
quote:“Marshall thinks muscles do not stretch”
So do all professors in Kinesiology! They use the term contraction from full length and the word stretch has no meaning here. Only laymen who pretend to know how physiology works by making ignorant comments about it and then repeated by all get this wrong. Muscle cells do not stretch, they are finite length material and if stretched after attaining full length will rupture.
The confusion comes from the “theory” of “stretch shortening cycle” that has a completely different meaning than the poor choice of words used to describe this theoretical phenomenon neural auto firing at bounce after full length has been achieved.
quote:“then powerfully contract”
Yes, contract from full length
quote:“more powerfully than the triceps muscles can on its own”
Who said the triceps is acting alone? Lincecum actually uses his triceps unlike traditional pitchers with their late humeral transition. When traditional pitchers should be using their Triceps they are actually firing off the antagonist muscle the Brachialis that is always miss-diagnosed as bicep tendonitis and their Pechtoralis as the primary mover where Tim and Tyler are using their Latissimus dorsi instead of the Peck’s as their primary mover.
quote:“ The leg plant helps initiate the turn of the powerful hips”
It does not “help” initiate it! It initiates it and at frame 88 not 130.
At 130 the ball actually starts heading towards home plate, notice the hips have already been spent and the torso has caught back up with the hips loosing all the previous length that puts this part of the actual drive mechanism exactly the same as Marshall’s but at a later timeline.
This separation is actually used up in turning over his humerus (humeral/forearm transition) outwardly then when the shoulders catch back up with the hips the ball then starts homewards bound by then inwardly rotating the humerus, this action is where Marshall wants to see it and Tim and Tyler both produce it although not as far back as he wants but better than traditional pitchers.
quote:“THIS is why Lincecum and Tyler can throw hard”
The only reason Tim and Tyler have superior velocity is they poses a higher percentage of fast twitch type II A and B muscles fibers. I wish you would believe me but it really does not matter! You have been told this many times but do not seem to understand this simple physiological tenet.
quote:“not because of Marshall”
Marshall is not the cause of their superior genetics and nobody has said he was.
By getting this confused with calling out kinesiological aspects of the baseball pitching motion in any form shows you just keep getting things more and more confused.
The biggest thing with Lincecum's velocity is how his lower half propels his upper half. He is a freak of nature. How he can powerfully open his hips and still have his upper half and chest closed to the point that it is facing down the left center field line is ridiculous. Some guys just have that incredible flexibility between upper half and lower half (Tiger Woods in golf for example)
I try to look at everything with an open mind. I coach pitchers at the college level and am always looking for ways to get more out of guys while keeping safety on top of the list. We have developed a throwing program with alot of different ideas and viewpoints. Our pitchers were all healthy. I think pitching a baseball is a violent act and because it is a bit unnatural we are going to have injuries but I think we can do alot of preventative things to help avoid them.
Back to Marshall. I do think he gets a bad rap because he is trying like all of us to help guys. Again, I don't agree with his philosophy in total but I took alot from the pronation techniques he teaches. I think the traditional pitcher can learn alot from that. take Lincecum for instance. the way he pronates in that slow motion video is eye opening.
I think to try to go back and forth on selling the Marshall style is not going to be a productive discussion. While I do think it is a safer method, I don't think it will ever produce a consistent enough amount of people to reach the big league level if any ( I know all about Sparks and he was a bit of a hybrid, not complete Marshall while he was in the big leagues).
I do think that we can take alot from a pretty smart guy in Mike Marshall. Like I said I don't think his theories in whole will work but we can take alot of positives he has taught us including pronation. Again, he may be eccentric but he is out there trying to help young kids get better and though you don't have to agree with him, you have to respect and applaud his efforts.
I try to look at everything with an open mind. I coach pitchers at the college level and am always looking for ways to get more out of guys while keeping safety on top of the list. We have developed a throwing program with alot of different ideas and viewpoints. Our pitchers were all healthy. I think pitching a baseball is a violent act and because it is a bit unnatural we are going to have injuries but I think we can do alot of preventative things to help avoid them.
Back to Marshall. I do think he gets a bad rap because he is trying like all of us to help guys. Again, I don't agree with his philosophy in total but I took alot from the pronation techniques he teaches. I think the traditional pitcher can learn alot from that. take Lincecum for instance. the way he pronates in that slow motion video is eye opening.
I think to try to go back and forth on selling the Marshall style is not going to be a productive discussion. While I do think it is a safer method, I don't think it will ever produce a consistent enough amount of people to reach the big league level if any ( I know all about Sparks and he was a bit of a hybrid, not complete Marshall while he was in the big leagues).
I do think that we can take alot from a pretty smart guy in Mike Marshall. Like I said I don't think his theories in whole will work but we can take alot of positives he has taught us including pronation. Again, he may be eccentric but he is out there trying to help young kids get better and though you don't have to agree with him, you have to respect and applaud his efforts.
Correction in my previous post. I meant left field line when talking about Lincecum's chest. The point is it is still incredibly closed off.
quote:Originally posted by Field of Dreams:
Correction in my previous post. I meant left field line when talking about Lincecum's chest. The point is it is still incredibly closed off.
Lincecum is in the pre-stretch of the core muscles which allows him to more effectively contract his muscles and generate velocity. Good power hitters use this to a lessor degree.
If you go back in history, the harder throwing pitchers, as they do now, were already pronating.
Yardbird you have no credibility when the pitcher you tout as an example of Marshall's mechanics, is completely a traditional pitcher. He even has a flaw...pulling his arm up by the elbow ala Prior. Sure he pronates his fastball...but so do most hard throwing pitchers that would say "Marshall who?"
field of dreams,
This was just part of the argument whether this early drive timeline added any velocity or not.
Obviously in the high speed video it shows his actual and initial forwards ball contraction point at 130, this propulsion as angulated lower back and arm motion with most rotations and forwards mass having already been stopped before the ball starts its forwards acceleration graph. Do you see this? The lower half propeling the upper half transition give you no forwardss force yet!
The man could apply at “Circ du solei”, no doubt he is the best pitcher athlete out there.
We believe a fast twitcher like him who has a very high MTS (Marshall tenet sum) could attain well over 100 mph if he used the Crowstep motion from the mound and trained “sport specifically”.
This separation then contraction is then used to turn over his humerus and forearm before any forwards force is used and has no accelerative contraction at this timeline. Do you see this at 88 to 129? Notice during this timeline there is no forwards movement of the legs, its gone!
This is rare unless you are a singular thinker, most are just running with the pack.
Then becoming thoroughly informed by the leading Kinesiologist for the overhead throwing mechanics on Earth who has already changed the way a major sport is mechanically performed (NFL passing mechanics) would be a prudent choice?
I would love to hear them all, they aren’t a secret are they? If you knew a mechanical performance enhansment that produced safely performed mechanics would you keep it from your competitors?
If you are teaching your pitchers to pronate preferably all or a majority of their pitches I can believe this. Just this one tenet is so important. The rest are incredible also!
I’ve heard this many times in the past and do not believe in this ill conceived traditional principle. There is nothing unnatural about the ability for the human body to articulate to the fullest length even as radically up and over as far as Marshall (inside of vertical) teaches and lincecum attains.
I would even say we have evolved to throw objects overhead for millions of years making it quit natural and when Grog chucked the spear with his atlatle it was not performed with forearm flyout and supination.
They can all be avoided through proper mechanics and training.
Wow!!!? Do you prefer Dos Equis (XX) ?
He is the only one that has actually done it; his mechanical force application is bullet proof, proving that the term “only so many bullets in the arm” as uninformed and pitch counts (for adults) unnesesary.
This means you have not tested it in total and have only brought the pronative aspects of a few pitches to your program like many at all levels in the last few years? I would suggest that you have only ensconced yourself in very little of it and need to delve even deeper and maybe absorb all of it through physical means then adjust your thinking.
In order to get it all, out of this aspect other tenets start to come into play.
Do your pitchers throw supinated Cutters, Sliders and Curves?
Do you use High-speed videoon shirtless pitchers to analyze what you think your seeing or getting?
Lincecum powerfully inwardly rotates his humerus with his Latissimus Dorsi the way Marshall teaches it unlike all traditional pitchers whom are pulling their arms through with their peck’s at this same timeline.
He has since learned 2 more pronated pitches and tweaked his curve more towards pronation; it’s a thing of beauty. Now if he can learn to transition further back by changing how he arrives his pendulum swing he would be able to actually pronate his earlier drive and eliminate more forearm bounce and centripetal (forearm flyout) action
This would make his pronation voluntary at the start of his ball drive.
It never has been because people will not discuss actual mechanics so they bring in all kinds of personal emotional baggage to deal with.
You sound like someone who is curious but this last comment puts you a few steps back from there. What’s holding you back? Although you should be afraid! If you physically try all the tenets you will find out they work even better than I can explain, then what will you do? Now you are in an ethical fix with your self and everybody that has anything to do your advancement does something different and now you know this keeps children from ruining their arms.
All, in your position in the past have quit the discussion or have tried to have the discussion removed. Will you answer the questions I have given you?
I discuss it so that at least the youth pitchers and concerned parents can get the information and if just one tries it and applies it, there is production.
It only takes a lot! Would you hand the ball to a full Marshall Crowstepper with 6 pitches that you did not have to call? This usually stops right at High school tryouts!
Have you even tested his pick off positions especially the 1/2 reverse at second and the righty hold for runners at first, they are incredible and puts the runners lead off back towards the bag more?
Were you aware of him having to change his mechanics by the good professional level pitching coaches or hit the road? Remember he was a forced hybrid.
How come you are so reasonable? This thing is growing legs and I hope that HSBW is part of that evolvement, after all it is run by a woman and Marshall says it is going to be the mothers who are going to bring this in because the men are incapable of doing it as of now! Lets hope there are more curious baseball established men get involved.
Many others and me have proven that they work physically by performance and training testing, no theory necessary anymore, this is not the problem! I produced 2 first rounders last year by adhering to them at different degrees in the last decade.
The full Crow hop method makes it so easy to pitch for kids, I’ll bet adults do even better.
Pronation is only a tenth of the score with the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum).
What he calls his checkpoints that include training.
I’ve met the professor and spent some time with him and his lovely wife, he is as down to earth as a person can get, he drives around a beat up (not his wife’s car though) old mini pick up truck to tinker around town in. He will never big league you and you can communicate with him personally. He’s the kind of guy pitching coaches at all levels should be flocking to for a big huge gulp of Kool-aid.
This will be his legacy; his motto and mission statement has always been “do no harm”.
This is not what people do; you are truly abnormal in this regard! Guys like you are the ones that will eventually change history.
MTS,
There is no velocity being generated at this timeline!!!, only when the shoulders catch back up does efficient additive (very short now in degrees compared to Crowstep) rotation and arm position start any forwards contractive movements. To little to late, Tim could add 5 MPH if he had a lesser disconnection at forearm turn over and lengthened his ball driveline.
Good power hitters perform this same kinetic link up when the barrel mass actually starts forwards by having the shoulders and hips more inline the way Marshall describes it in both (traditional v Batting) the only difference is with his pitching motion the legs actually attaing forwards mass movement add where batters do not.
They pronated their Sinkers, screwballs and some (tailing to the ball arm side of home plate) fastballs, we want it all! Every pitch. The straight and cut fastballs have always been taught with supinated action. Only now are pitching coaches asking their pitchers to voluntarily and maximally pronate through the ball driveline throw some pitches but suffer lesser performance with the mechanic because of their forearm flyout. When they discover the voluntary pronated Slider and Cutter watch out, you won’t be seeing any more 41 HR’s on a Sunday.
MTS you have no credibility lying about one of my pitchers and me touting him, you have demonstrated you do not recognize any more tenets than pronation like many.
If you understood humeral/forearm transition it would help you get over your vendetta.
This is the part that you keep parroting and I keep telling you the tenets that he possesses you do not recognize but Marshall did. I will not give up on you though! I believe one day you will understand how the transition works that hangs up most who do not understand this timeline that allows TM to be able to voluntarily pronate all his pitches.
The difference is Prior did not do this!!! His humerus stayed low then looped out and did not attain its last 90 degrees of outwards rotation until it went out not up also bouncing his forearm incorrectly unlike Tim and Tyler who have some but not as bad a bounce.
If T&T brought their ball back then up with their hand underneath they would start their transition even earlier for the better.
Are you still on this useless information talking point?
quote:“The biggest thing with Lincecum's velocity is how his lower half propels his upper half”
This was just part of the argument whether this early drive timeline added any velocity or not.
Obviously in the high speed video it shows his actual and initial forwards ball contraction point at 130, this propulsion as angulated lower back and arm motion with most rotations and forwards mass having already been stopped before the ball starts its forwards acceleration graph. Do you see this? The lower half propeling the upper half transition give you no forwardss force yet!
quote:“He is a freak of nature”
The man could apply at “Circ du solei”, no doubt he is the best pitcher athlete out there.
We believe a fast twitcher like him who has a very high MTS (Marshall tenet sum) could attain well over 100 mph if he used the Crowstep motion from the mound and trained “sport specifically”.
quote:“he can powerfully open his hips and still have his upper half and chest closed to the point that it is facing down the left field line is ridiculous”
This separation then contraction is then used to turn over his humerus and forearm before any forwards force is used and has no accelerative contraction at this timeline. Do you see this at 88 to 129? Notice during this timeline there is no forwards movement of the legs, its gone!
quote:“I try to look at everything with an open mind”
This is rare unless you are a singular thinker, most are just running with the pack.
quote:“ I coach pitchers at the college level and am always looking for ways to get more out of guys while keeping safety on top of the list”
Then becoming thoroughly informed by the leading Kinesiologist for the overhead throwing mechanics on Earth who has already changed the way a major sport is mechanically performed (NFL passing mechanics) would be a prudent choice?
quote:“We have developed a throwing program with alot of different ideas and viewpoints”
I would love to hear them all, they aren’t a secret are they? If you knew a mechanical performance enhansment that produced safely performed mechanics would you keep it from your competitors?
quote:“Our pitchers were all healthy”
If you are teaching your pitchers to pronate preferably all or a majority of their pitches I can believe this. Just this one tenet is so important. The rest are incredible also!
quote:“I think pitching a baseball is a violent act and because it is a bit unnatural “
I’ve heard this many times in the past and do not believe in this ill conceived traditional principle. There is nothing unnatural about the ability for the human body to articulate to the fullest length even as radically up and over as far as Marshall (inside of vertical) teaches and lincecum attains.
I would even say we have evolved to throw objects overhead for millions of years making it quit natural and when Grog chucked the spear with his atlatle it was not performed with forearm flyout and supination.
quote:“we are going to have injuries but I think we can do alot of preventative things to help avoid them”
They can all be avoided through proper mechanics and training.
quote:”Back to Marshall”
Wow!!!? Do you prefer Dos Equis (XX) ?
quote:“I do think he gets a bad rap because he is trying like all of us to help guys”
He is the only one that has actually done it; his mechanical force application is bullet proof, proving that the term “only so many bullets in the arm” as uninformed and pitch counts (for adults) unnesesary.
quote:“Again, I don't agree with his philosophy in total”
This means you have not tested it in total and have only brought the pronative aspects of a few pitches to your program like many at all levels in the last few years? I would suggest that you have only ensconced yourself in very little of it and need to delve even deeper and maybe absorb all of it through physical means then adjust your thinking.
quote:“I took alot from the pronation techniques he teaches”
In order to get it all, out of this aspect other tenets start to come into play.
Do your pitchers throw supinated Cutters, Sliders and Curves?
Do you use High-speed videoon shirtless pitchers to analyze what you think your seeing or getting?
quote:“I think the traditional pitcher can learn alot from that. take Lincecum forinstance”
Lincecum powerfully inwardly rotates his humerus with his Latissimus Dorsi the way Marshall teaches it unlike all traditional pitchers whom are pulling their arms through with their peck’s at this same timeline.
quote:“the way he pronates in that slow motion video is eye opening”
He has since learned 2 more pronated pitches and tweaked his curve more towards pronation; it’s a thing of beauty. Now if he can learn to transition further back by changing how he arrives his pendulum swing he would be able to actually pronate his earlier drive and eliminate more forearm bounce and centripetal (forearm flyout) action
This would make his pronation voluntary at the start of his ball drive.
quote:”I think to try to go back and forth on selling the Marshall style is not going to be a productive discussion”
It never has been because people will not discuss actual mechanics so they bring in all kinds of personal emotional baggage to deal with.
You sound like someone who is curious but this last comment puts you a few steps back from there. What’s holding you back? Although you should be afraid! If you physically try all the tenets you will find out they work even better than I can explain, then what will you do? Now you are in an ethical fix with your self and everybody that has anything to do your advancement does something different and now you know this keeps children from ruining their arms.
All, in your position in the past have quit the discussion or have tried to have the discussion removed. Will you answer the questions I have given you?
I discuss it so that at least the youth pitchers and concerned parents can get the information and if just one tries it and applies it, there is production.
quote:“While I do think it is a safer method, I don't think it will ever produce a consistent enough amount of people to reach the big league level”
It only takes a lot! Would you hand the ball to a full Marshall Crowstepper with 6 pitches that you did not have to call? This usually stops right at High school tryouts!
Have you even tested his pick off positions especially the 1/2 reverse at second and the righty hold for runners at first, they are incredible and puts the runners lead off back towards the bag more?
quote:“if any ( I know all about Sparks and he was a bit of a hybrid, not complete Marshall while he was in the big leagues)”
Were you aware of him having to change his mechanics by the good professional level pitching coaches or hit the road? Remember he was a forced hybrid.
quote:“I do think that we can take alot from a pretty smart guy in Mike Marshall”
How come you are so reasonable? This thing is growing legs and I hope that HSBW is part of that evolvement, after all it is run by a woman and Marshall says it is going to be the mothers who are going to bring this in because the men are incapable of doing it as of now! Lets hope there are more curious baseball established men get involved.
quote:“Like I said I don't think his theories in whole will work”
Many others and me have proven that they work physically by performance and training testing, no theory necessary anymore, this is not the problem! I produced 2 first rounders last year by adhering to them at different degrees in the last decade.
The full Crow hop method makes it so easy to pitch for kids, I’ll bet adults do even better.
quote:“but we can take alot of positives he has taught us including pronation”
Pronation is only a tenth of the score with the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum).
What he calls his checkpoints that include training.
quote:“Again, he may be eccentric”
I’ve met the professor and spent some time with him and his lovely wife, he is as down to earth as a person can get, he drives around a beat up (not his wife’s car though) old mini pick up truck to tinker around town in. He will never big league you and you can communicate with him personally. He’s the kind of guy pitching coaches at all levels should be flocking to for a big huge gulp of Kool-aid.
quote:“he is out there trying to help young kids get better”
This will be his legacy; his motto and mission statement has always been “do no harm”.
quote:“you have to respect and applaud his efforts”
This is not what people do; you are truly abnormal in this regard! Guys like you are the ones that will eventually change history.
MTS,
quote:“Lincecum is in the pre-stretch of the core muscles which allows him to more effectively contract and generate velocity”
There is no velocity being generated at this timeline!!!, only when the shoulders catch back up does efficient additive (very short now in degrees compared to Crowstep) rotation and arm position start any forwards contractive movements. To little to late, Tim could add 5 MPH if he had a lesser disconnection at forearm turn over and lengthened his ball driveline.
quote:“Good power hitters use this to a lessor degree”
Good power hitters perform this same kinetic link up when the barrel mass actually starts forwards by having the shoulders and hips more inline the way Marshall describes it in both (traditional v Batting) the only difference is with his pitching motion the legs actually attaing forwards mass movement add where batters do not.
quote:”If you go back in history, the harder throwing pitchers, as they do now, were already pronating”
They pronated their Sinkers, screwballs and some (tailing to the ball arm side of home plate) fastballs, we want it all! Every pitch. The straight and cut fastballs have always been taught with supinated action. Only now are pitching coaches asking their pitchers to voluntarily and maximally pronate through the ball driveline throw some pitches but suffer lesser performance with the mechanic because of their forearm flyout. When they discover the voluntary pronated Slider and Cutter watch out, you won’t be seeing any more 41 HR’s on a Sunday.
quote:“Yardbird you have no credibility when the pitcher you tout as an example of Marshall's mechanics”
MTS you have no credibility lying about one of my pitchers and me touting him, you have demonstrated you do not recognize any more tenets than pronation like many.
If you understood humeral/forearm transition it would help you get over your vendetta.
quote:“is completely a traditional pitcher”
This is the part that you keep parroting and I keep telling you the tenets that he possesses you do not recognize but Marshall did. I will not give up on you though! I believe one day you will understand how the transition works that hangs up most who do not understand this timeline that allows TM to be able to voluntarily pronate all his pitches.
quote:“He even has a flaw...pulling his arm up by the elbow ala Prior”
The difference is Prior did not do this!!! His humerus stayed low then looped out and did not attain its last 90 degrees of outwards rotation until it went out not up also bouncing his forearm incorrectly unlike Tim and Tyler who have some but not as bad a bounce.
If T&T brought their ball back then up with their hand underneath they would start their transition even earlier for the better.
quote:“Sure he pronates his fastball...but so do most hard throwing pitchers that would say "Marshall who?"
Are you still on this useless information talking point?
My Goodness !!!1!
When my fastball became two feet short (90's),
my new release point revealed at least twelve inches in front of the rubber, then ol' #1 was a foot short (at about 86-88 mph).
my new release point revealed at least twelve inches in front of the rubber, then ol' #1 was a foot short (at about 86-88 mph).
Yardbird...I don't waste my time reading your regurgitated posts. Please post a CURRENT clip of Tyler Matzek and explain where he is Marshall excluding an explanation on the part we already agree on...Pronation.
6 years ago and several times since I've told your friends that Marshall's Mechanics need the kick and stride of a regular pitcher to have any chance for it to work...And here you hold up as a Marshall pitcher, a pitcher that has a kick and stride and does another Marshall no-no, he rotates back beyond the acromial line using the very group of muscles that Marshall says do not stretch, but I say contribute to velocity. Dr. Finch PhD in Bio-mechanics, University of Indiana validates my statements. He uses high speed cameras and computers to help him analyze movement and performance. This info was also discarded by your friends.
Your friends were the first to throw hateful words with words like child abuse and worse...How many 12 and under are you coaching? From what I have heard, more than a few...I smell a lot of hypocrisy.
6 years ago and several times since I've told your friends that Marshall's Mechanics need the kick and stride of a regular pitcher to have any chance for it to work...And here you hold up as a Marshall pitcher, a pitcher that has a kick and stride and does another Marshall no-no, he rotates back beyond the acromial line using the very group of muscles that Marshall says do not stretch, but I say contribute to velocity. Dr. Finch PhD in Bio-mechanics, University of Indiana validates my statements. He uses high speed cameras and computers to help him analyze movement and performance. This info was also discarded by your friends.
Your friends were the first to throw hateful words with words like child abuse and worse...How many 12 and under are you coaching? From what I have heard, more than a few...I smell a lot of hypocrisy.
MTS
Yet, here you are licking it up, this post sounds like more hate mail.
This hypocrisy has quite a pungent odor in itself, lets see if I can clean this up a bit.
It amazes me how often you make accusations about someone else then immediately do the exact same thing you’re complaining about.
Let me get this straight you want me to discuss this with you just after you write “I don't waste my time reading your regurgitated posts” OK, I’m game, I’ve had worse said and responded not in kind before, why not you
I don’t have any of the latest like his first pro win last month or his latest (6 inning no-no) but if I get some I will show it to you and we will see where he is at now. I wish the coaches in that organization and others possessed the ability to video and diagnose like state of the art pitching facilities but they do not develop athlete pitchers very well yet and all pro’s are basically on their own in this regard.
He is of no concern to me anymore anyway, his mechanics will change more and more towards traditional anyways when he changed his training regimen; he is a graduate and knows the information! He can do what ever he wants, it’s his choice.
Does “My Two Sons” have the information? Or is it withheld?
Then you must be talking about his earlier mid-Humeral/ forearm transition that protects his UCL better but not all the way? I’ve already explained this to you but you do not respond to questions or discuss what I have told you with further discussion about the subject. You always have to come back with your snotty negative psychological driven agenda.
Where? Let me see? Produce these conversations (they happened here did they not?) or quit the repeated lying about them taking place!
You are as wrong then if it is true as you are now!! It is totally unnecessary; we have already proven that, first with kinesiological theory then physical application. What part of this have you missed? You are saying here that a crowhop leg drive will not work at the same time try to implicate the more important top half tenets as the same? What a false notion, it already has, no wonder you can’t fathom this. River? Egypt?
We have proven it works! The chance to perform is the sticking point.
Would you hand a Full Marshall pitcher the ball? I doubt it!
Even Full crow step performers do Marshall no-no’s, in fact all of them.
You are the only one holding up here! Get it right please. It is a no-no when dealing with bottom half and lowerback injuries.
We have already critiqued him on this long ago, where have you been?
Fortunately with his early Humeral/forearm transition he gets his thumb up supinated in time straightened out before his acceleration phase kicks in, he stays tall and rotates with less back bend so his finish is rotationally quicker and used during ball drive longer. This is where you lack the knowledge and understanding of the difference in both mechanical transitions like most, even seasoned professionals who make the mistake of having no education in the field of athletic performance.
Muscles do not stretch; they are finite length materials that when stretched after attaining full length from concentric contraction (flexing) of their antagonist muscles tear fail.
Marshall would never use a descriptive word that does not fit the kinesiological action
I have shown you repeatedly that during the pendulum then Humeral/Forearm transition phases that the acceleration phase has not begum yet. You have been shown with HS video and explained how the kinetic chain progresses from joint to joint and muscle to muscle. Maybe you will never want to understand this simple information because of your history with it; you need to let the hate subside before you can have a civil conversation about important and useful information with out whining..
I believe you need to quit trusting people who are trying to prove the traditional pitching motion has acceleration during the first two phases when it has been disproved time and time again. I would also suggest you think for yourself instead of following failed past theory by others.
He validates nothing if he gets it wrong! I’ll bet he thinks the ball is moving forwards during this non-accelerative phase of the motion like all the rest, still wrong!
While Dr.Sid probably did say something, we have no way of validating what was said to see if you got what he was saying right? Why don’t you send his full abstract to Dr.Marshall for his opinion on it or show these statements here so we can understand what was said instead of believing you when you have so much of this material twisted around and flat out misunderstood? All traditional pitching analysers have gotten this information wrong in the past why would you think one more has gotten it right?
ASMI and the NPA do the same thing along with many others and all are studying the traditional pitching mechanics as if all of a sudden they are going to become non-injurious after 20 years of research, its all pretty much laughable at this point by just their records of performance let alone listen to them butcher Kinesiological and exercise science principles.
Smart boys, who are these friends you speak of? I have seen none of them here?
Maybe you saw them (like the last time you made this claim) and just thaught they were Marshall practitioners.
You keep bringing up things that I have nothing to do with, what gives?
You can cry on my shoulder if you want but it looks a little submissive.
Is your continence coming out here? Confession can sometimes help!
Put up or shut up! I don’t believe you! Show me where they were first in the thread itself?
Give me the URL so I can go there? If you cant quit lying about it.
Who is the first to do this? And now with me? More of that smelly stuff here.
If the way you speak to me is the way you spoke to them then someone has given you a pass here and should look into your behavior.
This should not have been done even if it fits I agree and ignorant mechanical child abusers do not know that they do not know!!
If a parent is ignorant about the information for what they are asking their children to perform, they are innocent of this charge! Ignorance is bliss but if they know the information and ignore it, what would this then be called? A neglector?
I seem to remember talking about this many times in the resent past and it is now becoming redundant and makes me believe this is one of your hate cards you pull out every 10th post, give it a break, this banter is non productive, sophomoric and has nothing to do with me
Normally about 30 depending on the time of year.
Yes, their parents receive all the Marshall biological timeline, training, motor skill acquisition and mechanics information and are asked to replicate the findings and take over the program.
Most parents who have no baseball background follow the recommendations and thrive.
The ones that have some baseball background or a lot always violate the recommendations and their children suffer from the unforeseen bone deformation we discuss.
I don’t understand how you can complain to me about mythical characters who used hateful words that you and the Marshall haters club use to try and sabotage threads everywhere that I was not part of, then as soon as you can! Use hateful words at me because of my all-powerful mechanical association with the better mechanic.
At least you are consistently relentless in your quest! I suspect you are still licking the verbal wounds you brought on to yourself from those exchanges? I guess you think you can get back at them by attacking me, how strange indeed.
quote:“Yardbird...I don't waste my time reading your regurgitated posts”
Yet, here you are licking it up, this post sounds like more hate mail.
This hypocrisy has quite a pungent odor in itself, lets see if I can clean this up a bit.
It amazes me how often you make accusations about someone else then immediately do the exact same thing you’re complaining about.
quote:“Please post a CURRENT clip of Tyler Matzek and explain where he is Marshall”
Let me get this straight you want me to discuss this with you just after you write “I don't waste my time reading your regurgitated posts” OK, I’m game, I’ve had worse said and responded not in kind before, why not you
I don’t have any of the latest like his first pro win last month or his latest (6 inning no-no) but if I get some I will show it to you and we will see where he is at now. I wish the coaches in that organization and others possessed the ability to video and diagnose like state of the art pitching facilities but they do not develop athlete pitchers very well yet and all pro’s are basically on their own in this regard.
He is of no concern to me anymore anyway, his mechanics will change more and more towards traditional anyways when he changed his training regimen; he is a graduate and knows the information! He can do what ever he wants, it’s his choice.
Does “My Two Sons” have the information? Or is it withheld?
quote:“excluding an explanation on the part we already agree on...Pronation”
Then you must be talking about his earlier mid-Humeral/ forearm transition that protects his UCL better but not all the way? I’ve already explained this to you but you do not respond to questions or discuss what I have told you with further discussion about the subject. You always have to come back with your snotty negative psychological driven agenda.
quote:”6 years ago and several times since I've told your friends that Marshall's Mechanics need the kick and stride”
Where? Let me see? Produce these conversations (they happened here did they not?) or quit the repeated lying about them taking place!
You are as wrong then if it is true as you are now!! It is totally unnecessary; we have already proven that, first with kinesiological theory then physical application. What part of this have you missed? You are saying here that a crowhop leg drive will not work at the same time try to implicate the more important top half tenets as the same? What a false notion, it already has, no wonder you can’t fathom this. River? Egypt?
quote:“to have any chance for it to work”
We have proven it works! The chance to perform is the sticking point.
Would you hand a Full Marshall pitcher the ball? I doubt it!
quote:“And here you hold up as a Marshall pitcher, a pitcher that has a kick and stride and does another Marshall no-no”
Even Full crow step performers do Marshall no-no’s, in fact all of them.
You are the only one holding up here! Get it right please. It is a no-no when dealing with bottom half and lowerback injuries.
quote:“he rotates back beyond the acromial line”
We have already critiqued him on this long ago, where have you been?
Fortunately with his early Humeral/forearm transition he gets his thumb up supinated in time straightened out before his acceleration phase kicks in, he stays tall and rotates with less back bend so his finish is rotationally quicker and used during ball drive longer. This is where you lack the knowledge and understanding of the difference in both mechanical transitions like most, even seasoned professionals who make the mistake of having no education in the field of athletic performance.
quote:“using the very group of muscles that Marshall says do not stretch”
Muscles do not stretch; they are finite length materials that when stretched after attaining full length from concentric contraction (flexing) of their antagonist muscles tear fail.
Marshall would never use a descriptive word that does not fit the kinesiological action
quote:“I say contribute to velocity”
I have shown you repeatedly that during the pendulum then Humeral/Forearm transition phases that the acceleration phase has not begum yet. You have been shown with HS video and explained how the kinetic chain progresses from joint to joint and muscle to muscle. Maybe you will never want to understand this simple information because of your history with it; you need to let the hate subside before you can have a civil conversation about important and useful information with out whining..
I believe you need to quit trusting people who are trying to prove the traditional pitching motion has acceleration during the first two phases when it has been disproved time and time again. I would also suggest you think for yourself instead of following failed past theory by others.
quote:“Dr. Finch PhD in Bio-mechanics, University of Indiana validates my statements”
He validates nothing if he gets it wrong! I’ll bet he thinks the ball is moving forwards during this non-accelerative phase of the motion like all the rest, still wrong!
While Dr.Sid probably did say something, we have no way of validating what was said to see if you got what he was saying right? Why don’t you send his full abstract to Dr.Marshall for his opinion on it or show these statements here so we can understand what was said instead of believing you when you have so much of this material twisted around and flat out misunderstood? All traditional pitching analysers have gotten this information wrong in the past why would you think one more has gotten it right?
quote:“He uses high speed cameras and computers to help him analyze movement and performance”
ASMI and the NPA do the same thing along with many others and all are studying the traditional pitching mechanics as if all of a sudden they are going to become non-injurious after 20 years of research, its all pretty much laughable at this point by just their records of performance let alone listen to them butcher Kinesiological and exercise science principles.
quote:“This info was also discarded by your friends”
Smart boys, who are these friends you speak of? I have seen none of them here?
Maybe you saw them (like the last time you made this claim) and just thaught they were Marshall practitioners.
quote:”Your friends were the first to throw hateful words”
You keep bringing up things that I have nothing to do with, what gives?
You can cry on my shoulder if you want but it looks a little submissive.
Is your continence coming out here? Confession can sometimes help!
Put up or shut up! I don’t believe you! Show me where they were first in the thread itself?
Give me the URL so I can go there? If you cant quit lying about it.
Who is the first to do this? And now with me? More of that smelly stuff here.
If the way you speak to me is the way you spoke to them then someone has given you a pass here and should look into your behavior.
quote:“with words like child abuse and worse”
This should not have been done even if it fits I agree and ignorant mechanical child abusers do not know that they do not know!!
If a parent is ignorant about the information for what they are asking their children to perform, they are innocent of this charge! Ignorance is bliss but if they know the information and ignore it, what would this then be called? A neglector?
I seem to remember talking about this many times in the resent past and it is now becoming redundant and makes me believe this is one of your hate cards you pull out every 10th post, give it a break, this banter is non productive, sophomoric and has nothing to do with me
quote:“How many 12 and under are you coaching?
Normally about 30 depending on the time of year.
quote:“From what I have heard, more than a few”
Yes, their parents receive all the Marshall biological timeline, training, motor skill acquisition and mechanics information and are asked to replicate the findings and take over the program.
Most parents who have no baseball background follow the recommendations and thrive.
The ones that have some baseball background or a lot always violate the recommendations and their children suffer from the unforeseen bone deformation we discuss.
quote:“I smell a lot of hypocrisy”
I don’t understand how you can complain to me about mythical characters who used hateful words that you and the Marshall haters club use to try and sabotage threads everywhere that I was not part of, then as soon as you can! Use hateful words at me because of my all-powerful mechanical association with the better mechanic.
At least you are consistently relentless in your quest! I suspect you are still licking the verbal wounds you brought on to yourself from those exchanges? I guess you think you can get back at them by attacking me, how strange indeed.
TPM,
Because you have turned the Strasburg thread into a Marshall thread I bumped it over here to the Marshall thread so to not get people riled up by having to read anything Marshall or lengthy.
This is highly dubious! Have you seen high-speed video from the direct frontal angle closed in on the head, shoulder and arm drive of all his pitches shirtless? I doubt it!
I have heard this before and it always turns out differently than one would think!
I’ve personally queried the Cardinal system to see if they produce game or training video of the players in their org or without for mechanical analysis the way it should be done. Because I was digging for game and training video of Joe Williams thinking it was a perfect chance for them to document what was happening for future use of which none exists or any cohesive mechanical approach and I was told this is not a part of their process? Maybe you have proper private video but I doubt it? And this is the only way you will know for sure! Now what? Is he supinating 25%, 50% or 75% of his pitches?
The percentage of voluntary pronated pitches compared to centrifugally forced supinated pitches is critical for elbow health!! It also allows for and earlier possible humeral transition, lessoning UCL stress.
You like many here and everywhere who really do not mitigate this information in depth but have some good idea? Seem to make the mistake of calling out that you have witnessed pronation when you have actually witnessed poor minimal (30 fps or fuzzy gifs) time frame video that tells you nothing in this regards to this very important mechanic and what most see as pronatiuon is actually “outside of vertical “voluntary supination to full length then involuntary pronation snap back after release and after full range has been reached!!!! This is still supination and is the cause of most elbow (mashed cartilage that turns into bone spurs and chips later, bone smash enlargement of then loss of extension and flexion range of motion) irritations, inflammations, bursa sack tears and more.
I suspect while your son may pronate one of his fastballs even voluntarily because of the 2 and 4 seam traditional grip system that is taught, the percentage of supinated pitches is still to high even if it is only 25% of them, you prove me wrong? Show me frontal footage of his mechanic? I know what, use some of that high speed video the Cardinals always give their developing pitchers to diagnose them selves once a month?
I believe this is why he has discomfort in his elbow without even have seen him and can call out his mechanic by his ailment.
Take it or leave it but get off the bandwidth mantras, you are one of the most prolific writers here and use 100 times the bandwidth I do and nobody else is prodded to donate not even you. If you do not want me to talk quit talking to me, if not talk on and quit getting all riled up, I’m not the enemy, these are only mechanics and none of them can kill you, well not yet that traditional finish has sure has those boys heads exposed to long.
Yes but I will not, what for? For whom? What could you possibly gain by knowing this information; you would just find some reason to complain anyways?
You would not do anything with the information that would help your family!
I have been sitting on this bucket for 35 years now and seeking or promoting high profile players is about 18 years back and I have no need to go there, Your continued (over and over and over) abative questions are designed to detract from the information and not gain from it apparently, these questions should produce a positive light but it seems everywhere you go people start a fight, like the information is some kind of assault on them personally. These questions and their answers will only be able to answered for you by emulation not ridicule.
If you choose to not relay this information to your son I have no problem with that but feel like I would be not doing my duty if I had not at least given you a chance of at least hearing it then doing what you want with it, please continue and enjoy unabated with the high risk/reward approach.
I do have traditional pitchers that supinate ½ of their pitches even though I push them towards the correct mechanic! These boys still suffer from all the traditional problems!
None of my Marshall top half kids suffer from any injurious affects other than unforeseen bone growth deformation in the undeveloped open growth plater youth, the 16 byo’s and up train 30 times the sport specific resistance maximally and ballistically (pitch a ball) daily.
OK, I’ll give you just one where a real risk/reward is off the charts (accept his arm and shoulder from non collision throwing) and because I don’t want to put the Marshall stigma on the baseball kids that many people would use to denigrate them as I seen, heard and read everywhere I will use the sport who took to the information and can’t affect.
Mark Sanchez, QB New York Jets, trained as a pitcher with using Marshall tenets from the time he was 9 cyo until he was 14 cyo, He only threw the pronated torque fastball because his dad said little Mark was going to be the USC QB one day and I don’t want none of those off speed pronated spinners you teach, When he entered HS at SMCHS as a 15 cyo he was pitching 92 MPH with Dr.Marshall’s top half force application and that one pitch, the pronated cutter that is usually supinated in traditional pitchers. Mark chose to quit baseball as a freshman. Watch Mr. Sanchez perform these similar mechanics on Sundays as does many of the modern QB’s like Payton Manning who was taught by dear old dad who was taught personally by Dr.Marshall how to perform The readers here will remember Paytons blistering downward pronated torque passes where he would raise up on his left ankle joint, get high and throw down hill at the receivers knees where it is impossible to defend. Is he good enough?
Marshall’s small group of practitioners produced a first round baseball players last year and have one near the top coming up now, that makes 3 in 2 years, I had one of them but knowing who they are does not matter. They need to be left alone We want them to climb un-impeded unlike what they would receive if blabbing their names on the Internet leaving their advancement in the hands of people who have the same attitudes you see here and elsewhere. Now if we are getting them into the top rounds what about all the rounds below that?
I’m hoping I will live long enough to see many more of them advance and establish themselves then one at a time break into their full Marshall crowstep mechanic, LOL.
Just like Don Larson did and he was not even been worked on in an off-season but only weeks before the World Series.
The donation suggestion is a good one for all but your reasons are bogus as they have been in the past oaoao’rs!
And every time you say something like this I have to repeat oaoao that I’m not here to prove anything to you or anybody else, I’m not selling anything! My attempt at making un-equivocal statements about mechanics is to avoid emotional baggage for the original seeking poster, not the detractors or the perplexed.
I have proved these tenets to myself and hundreds of families and only way you can prove out something is hands on, not lip service by touting.
Which of the 22 current College pitchers whom have Marshall training and mechanics
Do you want me to associate with Marshall? Get real; you want me to name a kid who is trying to advance in a subjectively picked system to someone who talks like a Marshall hater, right?
I’m only here for the ones that will give it a go in all or any part or pass on their thoughts, I’m just giving the information on what I have experienced and me trying to help your son with the truth through you should not elicit this unpleasant response out of you. Maybe you do not even discuss mechanics with him, who knows?
Are you talking to your self here? I do not believe once you have read something that you can then blank the memory of the event out, it is somewhat like listening?
Remember I am the only poster whom has to put out a disclaimer before some of my posts so that the reclusive old schoolers are forewarned not to read further for they might later want to hurt (risk/reward reading) themselves, this is OK with me having to jump thru a few hoops like you guys and apparently gals put out (I look at hoops as paths) to get to parents that care the most and take advantage of the information. I’m hoping for the new poster that comes on that has not been given the chance to hear it so he at least has a chance to make his own decision although fettered some by autodetractors.
Why did you say argue? I’m just giving my opinion OK!! I have seen no other mechanical explanations other than mine here or at the other sites whichever ones your talking about? You may want to go with my disclaimers in the future if you can’t read something presented as being helpful and take it as you did. Especially if you are a willing high risk/rewarder mechanical theorist.
Will you please hold your breath until I decide if it is worth it, 1 second, and 2 seconds there breath, I have decided! You have not earned it.
Gee, thanks in advance for something your not privileged to see?
You show me yours first and then I will show you mine.
Because you have turned the Strasburg thread into a Marshall thread I bumped it over here to the Marshall thread so to not get people riled up by having to read anything Marshall or lengthy.
quote:Son pronates his pitches, now what?
This is highly dubious! Have you seen high-speed video from the direct frontal angle closed in on the head, shoulder and arm drive of all his pitches shirtless? I doubt it!
I have heard this before and it always turns out differently than one would think!
I’ve personally queried the Cardinal system to see if they produce game or training video of the players in their org or without for mechanical analysis the way it should be done. Because I was digging for game and training video of Joe Williams thinking it was a perfect chance for them to document what was happening for future use of which none exists or any cohesive mechanical approach and I was told this is not a part of their process? Maybe you have proper private video but I doubt it? And this is the only way you will know for sure! Now what? Is he supinating 25%, 50% or 75% of his pitches?
The percentage of voluntary pronated pitches compared to centrifugally forced supinated pitches is critical for elbow health!! It also allows for and earlier possible humeral transition, lessoning UCL stress.
You like many here and everywhere who really do not mitigate this information in depth but have some good idea? Seem to make the mistake of calling out that you have witnessed pronation when you have actually witnessed poor minimal (30 fps or fuzzy gifs) time frame video that tells you nothing in this regards to this very important mechanic and what most see as pronatiuon is actually “outside of vertical “voluntary supination to full length then involuntary pronation snap back after release and after full range has been reached!!!! This is still supination and is the cause of most elbow (mashed cartilage that turns into bone spurs and chips later, bone smash enlargement of then loss of extension and flexion range of motion) irritations, inflammations, bursa sack tears and more.
I suspect while your son may pronate one of his fastballs even voluntarily because of the 2 and 4 seam traditional grip system that is taught, the percentage of supinated pitches is still to high even if it is only 25% of them, you prove me wrong? Show me frontal footage of his mechanic? I know what, use some of that high speed video the Cardinals always give their developing pitchers to diagnose them selves once a month?
I believe this is why he has discomfort in his elbow without even have seen him and can call out his mechanic by his ailment.
Take it or leave it but get off the bandwidth mantras, you are one of the most prolific writers here and use 100 times the bandwidth I do and nobody else is prodded to donate not even you. If you do not want me to talk quit talking to me, if not talk on and quit getting all riled up, I’m not the enemy, these are only mechanics and none of them can kill you, well not yet that traditional finish has sure has those boys heads exposed to long.
quote:“10 years, can you provide a list of successful college or pro players that have worked under you? “
Yes but I will not, what for? For whom? What could you possibly gain by knowing this information; you would just find some reason to complain anyways?
You would not do anything with the information that would help your family!
I have been sitting on this bucket for 35 years now and seeking or promoting high profile players is about 18 years back and I have no need to go there, Your continued (over and over and over) abative questions are designed to detract from the information and not gain from it apparently, these questions should produce a positive light but it seems everywhere you go people start a fight, like the information is some kind of assault on them personally. These questions and their answers will only be able to answered for you by emulation not ridicule.
If you choose to not relay this information to your son I have no problem with that but feel like I would be not doing my duty if I had not at least given you a chance of at least hearing it then doing what you want with it, please continue and enjoy unabated with the high risk/reward approach.
quote:“Not about the ones that have not been hurt”
I do have traditional pitchers that supinate ½ of their pitches even though I push them towards the correct mechanic! These boys still suffer from all the traditional problems!
None of my Marshall top half kids suffer from any injurious affects other than unforeseen bone growth deformation in the undeveloped open growth plater youth, the 16 byo’s and up train 30 times the sport specific resistance maximally and ballistically (pitch a ball) daily.
quote:“the ones that have moved forward, that's where risk/reward comes in”
OK, I’ll give you just one where a real risk/reward is off the charts (accept his arm and shoulder from non collision throwing) and because I don’t want to put the Marshall stigma on the baseball kids that many people would use to denigrate them as I seen, heard and read everywhere I will use the sport who took to the information and can’t affect.
Mark Sanchez, QB New York Jets, trained as a pitcher with using Marshall tenets from the time he was 9 cyo until he was 14 cyo, He only threw the pronated torque fastball because his dad said little Mark was going to be the USC QB one day and I don’t want none of those off speed pronated spinners you teach, When he entered HS at SMCHS as a 15 cyo he was pitching 92 MPH with Dr.Marshall’s top half force application and that one pitch, the pronated cutter that is usually supinated in traditional pitchers. Mark chose to quit baseball as a freshman. Watch Mr. Sanchez perform these similar mechanics on Sundays as does many of the modern QB’s like Payton Manning who was taught by dear old dad who was taught personally by Dr.Marshall how to perform The readers here will remember Paytons blistering downward pronated torque passes where he would raise up on his left ankle joint, get high and throw down hill at the receivers knees where it is impossible to defend. Is he good enough?
Marshall’s small group of practitioners produced a first round baseball players last year and have one near the top coming up now, that makes 3 in 2 years, I had one of them but knowing who they are does not matter. They need to be left alone We want them to climb un-impeded unlike what they would receive if blabbing their names on the Internet leaving their advancement in the hands of people who have the same attitudes you see here and elsewhere. Now if we are getting them into the top rounds what about all the rounds below that?
I’m hoping I will live long enough to see many more of them advance and establish themselves then one at a time break into their full Marshall crowstep mechanic, LOL.
Just like Don Larson did and he was not even been worked on in an off-season but only weeks before the World Series.
quote:”If not, please send the hsbbweb a nice donation for all of the bandwidth you have used.”
The donation suggestion is a good one for all but your reasons are bogus as they have been in the past oaoao’rs!
quote:“trying to prove your point over and over and over”
And every time you say something like this I have to repeat oaoao that I’m not here to prove anything to you or anybody else, I’m not selling anything! My attempt at making un-equivocal statements about mechanics is to avoid emotional baggage for the original seeking poster, not the detractors or the perplexed.
I have proved these tenets to myself and hundreds of families and only way you can prove out something is hands on, not lip service by touting.
Which of the 22 current College pitchers whom have Marshall training and mechanics
Do you want me to associate with Marshall? Get real; you want me to name a kid who is trying to advance in a subjectively picked system to someone who talks like a Marshall hater, right?
I’m only here for the ones that will give it a go in all or any part or pass on their thoughts, I’m just giving the information on what I have experienced and me trying to help your son with the truth through you should not elicit this unpleasant response out of you. Maybe you do not even discuss mechanics with him, who knows?
quote:“(is anyone really listening)”
Are you talking to your self here? I do not believe once you have read something that you can then blank the memory of the event out, it is somewhat like listening?
Remember I am the only poster whom has to put out a disclaimer before some of my posts so that the reclusive old schoolers are forewarned not to read further for they might later want to hurt (risk/reward reading) themselves, this is OK with me having to jump thru a few hoops like you guys and apparently gals put out (I look at hoops as paths) to get to parents that care the most and take advantage of the information. I’m hoping for the new poster that comes on that has not been given the chance to hear it so he at least has a chance to make his own decision although fettered some by autodetractors.
quote:“go back and argue over at the other sites you frequent”
Why did you say argue? I’m just giving my opinion OK!! I have seen no other mechanical explanations other than mine here or at the other sites whichever ones your talking about? You may want to go with my disclaimers in the future if you can’t read something presented as being helpful and take it as you did. Especially if you are a willing high risk/rewarder mechanical theorist.
quote:“Waiting for the list”
Will you please hold your breath until I decide if it is worth it, 1 second, and 2 seconds there breath, I have decided! You have not earned it.
quote:Thanks.
Gee, thanks in advance for something your not privileged to see?
You show me yours first and then I will show you mine.
I sent you a message in your other name on another site.
You want to share a glass of koolaid here or there?
You all are just aggravated at the Cardinals because they let Williams go so quickly. I heard he was not too bad but he needed too mcuh work with little time to do it. Why didn't you all make sure he was game ready when you offered him out for FA? In other words why put out an example if not ready and tested properly?
Wouldn't it be obvious if you guys produced a first rounder, wouldn't people be saying, look he's different? The players picked it up right away with Williams and no one thought less of him because of it. Perhaps it is you all that place stigma upon your products ands afraid to identify (if so true) because then if they got hurt, all that hard work and convincing for nothing?
You want to share a glass of koolaid here or there?
You all are just aggravated at the Cardinals because they let Williams go so quickly. I heard he was not too bad but he needed too mcuh work with little time to do it. Why didn't you all make sure he was game ready when you offered him out for FA? In other words why put out an example if not ready and tested properly?
Wouldn't it be obvious if you guys produced a first rounder, wouldn't people be saying, look he's different? The players picked it up right away with Williams and no one thought less of him because of it. Perhaps it is you all that place stigma upon your products ands afraid to identify (if so true) because then if they got hurt, all that hard work and convincing for nothing?
Baseballpapa,
What were you searching for risk assessment?
Any successful practitioner who uses some or all of them and even users of the tenets that have never heard of Marshall! I believe someone like you should go directly to the most successful practitioner of these mechanics in part, Dr.Marshall himself. You should have seen Juan Marichal pitch with many of his tenets, especially that screwball and arm vector. I can go on and on.
I take it this ain’t your first Rodeo?
OK, this means what exactly? Give me an example? I’ve always thaught he was the epitome of transparency with nothing hidden especially the way he covers subjects in detail and for free. It sounds like your bucket is rattlin here?
Why would your brother be interested in telling his patients about Dr.Marshall’s terminology? I always thaught bone was in the middle of your arm and Dr.Marshall uses elbow in many sentences?
I’ll bet he says,”mam yer boy has a busted the medial epicondile in his elbow and the 4 pieces have to be screwed back together”
This means when I give him his release to start pitching again he can return to the same mechanic that put him on the ORT in the first place because over-use and pitch counts are what caused this catastrophic injury not the mechanic because I was told this by ASMI.
quote:“I went back to the threads and went to the Marshall website”
What were you searching for risk assessment?
quote:“Please just tell me who is successful with his mechanics.”
Any successful practitioner who uses some or all of them and even users of the tenets that have never heard of Marshall! I believe someone like you should go directly to the most successful practitioner of these mechanics in part, Dr.Marshall himself. You should have seen Juan Marichal pitch with many of his tenets, especially that screwball and arm vector. I can go on and on.
quote:“I can be convinced, but I have more hours of college than Marshall”
I take it this ain’t your first Rodeo?
quote:“and have never been quite trusting of someone who hides behind what sounds like research and education (his terminology).”
OK, this means what exactly? Give me an example? I’ve always thaught he was the epitome of transparency with nothing hidden especially the way he covers subjects in detail and for free. It sounds like your bucket is rattlin here?
quote:My brother is a surgeon but he tells his patient the thing in the middle of their arm is an "elbow." Marshall hides behind terminology
Why would your brother be interested in telling his patients about Dr.Marshall’s terminology? I always thaught bone was in the middle of your arm and Dr.Marshall uses elbow in many sentences?
I’ll bet he says,”mam yer boy has a busted the medial epicondile in his elbow and the 4 pieces have to be screwed back together”
This means when I give him his release to start pitching again he can return to the same mechanic that put him on the ORT in the first place because over-use and pitch counts are what caused this catastrophic injury not the mechanic because I was told this by ASMI.
TPM,
Which one? I do not want to miss it, is it positive in nature?
I’m pourin out the whole pitcher if I can, pardon the pun.
Why not, he was not even given a start or a chance to get acclimated.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure because striking out AA batters does not mean much to some?
What a joke!!!! Who could possibly work with him? he knows more about pitching mechanics and sport specific training than anybody in the organization, remember the development crew in extended invited him to demonstrate his mechanics and knowledge. The AA brain trust had no clue as to what he was doing, remember the group he was working with in spring who wanted him to move up were all gone when he arrived in Springfield, he was thrust upon them and was a complete surprise. They did not want him the first time they laid eyes on him pitching, guaranteed.
He was perfectly ready and trained more highly than any pitcher in the world at this time.
He did not have the luxury of throwing to catchers and batters for 6 weeks like all the rest in spring training. He spent 1 week pitching live scrimmages every day of the week in extended and had no clue they liked what they saw and would be asked to hit AA running after not have pitched competitively for 4 years. Given all these obstacles he did pretty good and should have been allowed to continue. I wish David would have had the chance to meet him and pick his brain!
He was not offered out, he was invited with no expectations of ever seeing an inning even in extended spring, he was just there to demonstrate.
All this and more was done remember he was with the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing mechanics and training and that he worked on every say for 2.5 straight years any pro especially one living in Florida would be a fool not paying Dr.Marshall a visit in the off season
You need to speak in individual cases because everybody performs different percentages of the tenets and conversely performance. I ask my clients to forgo the bottom half tenets so to mask the top half tenets because of the ballistic nature of the top half pitching coaches do not recognize the tenets.
Joe was a full Marshall practitioner rated in the 900’s with the MTS, his bottom half mechanics made this automatic for them to recognize the difference and his boys will always have his back not the upper management.
I tried to no avail to have the bottom half accepted within the SoCal baseball establishment and they would not hand them the ball so we had to take a different tact.
Joe was performing with an already torn Labrum because the Crowstep inside of vertical mechanic does not perturb it further, is this the injury you speak of? It was acquired when he performed the traditional pitching motion for the Mets farm system.
Lets hope he earns that trident pin he is training for now?
quote:“I sent you a message in your other name on another site.”
Which one? I do not want to miss it, is it positive in nature?
quote:”You want to share a glass of Kool-Aid here or there?”
I’m pourin out the whole pitcher if I can, pardon the pun.
quote:”You all are just aggravated at the Cardinals because they let Williams go so quickly”
Why not, he was not even given a start or a chance to get acclimated.
quote:“I heard he was not too bad”
Unfortunately we will never know for sure because striking out AA batters does not mean much to some?
quote:“but he needed too mcuh work with little time to do it”
What a joke!!!! Who could possibly work with him? he knows more about pitching mechanics and sport specific training than anybody in the organization, remember the development crew in extended invited him to demonstrate his mechanics and knowledge. The AA brain trust had no clue as to what he was doing, remember the group he was working with in spring who wanted him to move up were all gone when he arrived in Springfield, he was thrust upon them and was a complete surprise. They did not want him the first time they laid eyes on him pitching, guaranteed.
quote:“Why didn't you all make sure he was game ready when you offered him out.
He was perfectly ready and trained more highly than any pitcher in the world at this time.
He did not have the luxury of throwing to catchers and batters for 6 weeks like all the rest in spring training. He spent 1 week pitching live scrimmages every day of the week in extended and had no clue they liked what they saw and would be asked to hit AA running after not have pitched competitively for 4 years. Given all these obstacles he did pretty good and should have been allowed to continue. I wish David would have had the chance to meet him and pick his brain!
He was not offered out, he was invited with no expectations of ever seeing an inning even in extended spring, he was just there to demonstrate.
quote:“In other words why put out an example if not ready and tested properly?”
All this and more was done remember he was with the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing mechanics and training and that he worked on every say for 2.5 straight years any pro especially one living in Florida would be a fool not paying Dr.Marshall a visit in the off season
quote:”Wouldn't it be obvious if you guys produced a first rounder, wouldn't people be saying” look he's different?
You need to speak in individual cases because everybody performs different percentages of the tenets and conversely performance. I ask my clients to forgo the bottom half tenets so to mask the top half tenets because of the ballistic nature of the top half pitching coaches do not recognize the tenets.
quote:“The players picked it up right away with Williams and no one thought less of him”
Joe was a full Marshall practitioner rated in the 900’s with the MTS, his bottom half mechanics made this automatic for them to recognize the difference and his boys will always have his back not the upper management.
quote:“Perhaps it is you all that place stigma upon your products”
I tried to no avail to have the bottom half accepted within the SoCal baseball establishment and they would not hand them the ball so we had to take a different tact.
quote:“ands afraid to identify (if so true) because then if they got hurt, all that hard work and convincing for nothing?”
Joe was performing with an already torn Labrum because the Crowstep inside of vertical mechanic does not perturb it further, is this the injury you speak of? It was acquired when he performed the traditional pitching motion for the Mets farm system.
Lets hope he earns that trident pin he is training for now?
Here's an article with an interview with Williams while with the Cardinals for those interested.
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/865706.html
I am not going to say anything negative towards him, I give him lots of credit for trying to get back in the game.
It's unfortunate that instead of being a bit thankful for the opportunity (which he was) you guys turned the whole thing around. Perhaps that's why you all have to hide behind whoever you say is one of your pupils, no one wants to deal with the negative stuff afterwards. He was 28 years old, where did you think he would be assigned? And for how long? Why don't you prepare your guys to work with catchers so when the opportunity arises they are ready?
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/865706.html
I am not going to say anything negative towards him, I give him lots of credit for trying to get back in the game.
It's unfortunate that instead of being a bit thankful for the opportunity (which he was) you guys turned the whole thing around. Perhaps that's why you all have to hide behind whoever you say is one of your pupils, no one wants to deal with the negative stuff afterwards. He was 28 years old, where did you think he would be assigned? And for how long? Why don't you prepare your guys to work with catchers so when the opportunity arises they are ready?
How hard did he throw?
It is pretty amazing how we can look at the same clip and see completely different things.
FOD,
If you look closely enough (it helps to have the entire clip) Lincecum really hasn't started opening his hips at all as of frame 88. His stride leg has opened up but not his hips. Most people can't do that and they start opening up earlier as a result. Then his hips, and his torso/shoulders open up very quickly and pretty much together although the hips probably lead a bit. Given that Lincecum counter rotates he may actually begin the shoulders rotating about the spine prior to the final hip rotation. The hips and torso rotate both due to muscle action and due to momentum transfer from the plant leg slowing the forward momentum. His shoulder externally rotates in response to the hip and torso/shoulders turning. It reaches full external rotation and as he squares up the shoulder rotation about the spine virtually stops allowing a combination of the "stretch" in his arm and the momentum transfer from his body to the shoulder catapult the ball forward through internal rotation of the shoulder and to a lesser degree extension of the elbow. There's a bit of forward motion of the shoulders/torso that contributes a small amount at this point. He gets fully extended at release without pronating at that point. As the ball is released and the load from the ball goes away the forearm pronates to keep from further loading the elbow. The damage to the UCL tends to happen during acceleration prior to release and the damage to the bony structure tends to happen just after release if there isn't pronation just after release although the bones have begun to offload the UCL at near full extension prior to release. After release the shoulders rotate to relieve the load on the shoulder during the follow through. Even though the elbow is extending like crazy prior to release it doesn't hyperextend until the ball is released abruptly relieving the load of the ball acting against extension so pronation immediately after release before the elbow can fully hyperextend is vital. From looking at that clip it is possible that Lincecum is getting fully hyperextended and that the post release pronation is minimizing the effects by not allowing the elbow to remain hyperextended through the entire follow through. Hard to tell.
Any pronation prior to release will tend to have a significant negative effect on velocity due to lack of extension and not having the fingers directly behind the ball. If one is willing to give up that velocity then it should be a bit safer and possibly result in more movement and less ability to locate. Screwballs can be very effective changeups and a lot of pitchers pronate a bit early on their changeups to get more movement and to take off a bit more velocity.
I can see where the Marshall technique could result in max velocities almost up to what a typical cutter would result in and if a pitcher could repeat their motion consistently enough then they might be able to be fairly effective and a bit safer with the motion. It doesn't allow for the same max velocity from a given pitcher as conventional mechanics though.
FOD,
If you look closely enough (it helps to have the entire clip) Lincecum really hasn't started opening his hips at all as of frame 88. His stride leg has opened up but not his hips. Most people can't do that and they start opening up earlier as a result. Then his hips, and his torso/shoulders open up very quickly and pretty much together although the hips probably lead a bit. Given that Lincecum counter rotates he may actually begin the shoulders rotating about the spine prior to the final hip rotation. The hips and torso rotate both due to muscle action and due to momentum transfer from the plant leg slowing the forward momentum. His shoulder externally rotates in response to the hip and torso/shoulders turning. It reaches full external rotation and as he squares up the shoulder rotation about the spine virtually stops allowing a combination of the "stretch" in his arm and the momentum transfer from his body to the shoulder catapult the ball forward through internal rotation of the shoulder and to a lesser degree extension of the elbow. There's a bit of forward motion of the shoulders/torso that contributes a small amount at this point. He gets fully extended at release without pronating at that point. As the ball is released and the load from the ball goes away the forearm pronates to keep from further loading the elbow. The damage to the UCL tends to happen during acceleration prior to release and the damage to the bony structure tends to happen just after release if there isn't pronation just after release although the bones have begun to offload the UCL at near full extension prior to release. After release the shoulders rotate to relieve the load on the shoulder during the follow through. Even though the elbow is extending like crazy prior to release it doesn't hyperextend until the ball is released abruptly relieving the load of the ball acting against extension so pronation immediately after release before the elbow can fully hyperextend is vital. From looking at that clip it is possible that Lincecum is getting fully hyperextended and that the post release pronation is minimizing the effects by not allowing the elbow to remain hyperextended through the entire follow through. Hard to tell.
Any pronation prior to release will tend to have a significant negative effect on velocity due to lack of extension and not having the fingers directly behind the ball. If one is willing to give up that velocity then it should be a bit safer and possibly result in more movement and less ability to locate. Screwballs can be very effective changeups and a lot of pitchers pronate a bit early on their changeups to get more movement and to take off a bit more velocity.
I can see where the Marshall technique could result in max velocities almost up to what a typical cutter would result in and if a pitcher could repeat their motion consistently enough then they might be able to be fairly effective and a bit safer with the motion. It doesn't allow for the same max velocity from a given pitcher as conventional mechanics though.
TPM,
Nobody cares TPM accept you! You are the one posting questions and making comments on this subject, I have answered all your question with my opinion and always will, I wish you would do the same.
Yet, the reason for your questions and original thoughts are un-known?
What he went through to get back was grueling, long and what nobody on earth has game through to get ready correctly for competition and he succeeded but that’s not nothing compared to what he is going through right now getting ready for elite military competition. Good thing he went through Dr.Marshalls program and was taught what it takes to get ready.
What does his humble reaction have to do with others thoughts on the subject?
You have a problem lumping peoples thoughts together that is quit unsettling.
Is this what your after? A recognition by me (to you us) that I have a different opinion than his?
You live in this perhaps, maybe, coulda, world that is probably going to turn into shoulda.
I have not said who is one of my pupils ever! Sanches is it and again because you asked not because I originally give this information, They have all been dug out by concerned posters like you.
What do you consider this line of statements you are bringing here are?
You trying to start a negative snotty argument because this is how you get people riled up and make negative posting rhetoric increases, that get them removed as you did it in the past, will not work with me, please clean up your drive.
When an adult athlete has trained correctly “sport specifically” for 720 days straight he can then start his maintenance program that includes the decreasing of weight and reps of hid overload training and increase his ballistic training daily, this is where Joe was in his training, just starting to throw to catchers. At this point he should have thrown to catchers for 2 weeks then live batting practice batters for two weeks then scrimmage live competition for two weeks then game competition. Joe skipped 2 phases and was asked to throw competition in extended spring, he did so well for that week that they asked him to sign and go right to AA. This is OK if the pitching coaches and managers know what they are doing, good luck with that. Joe needed 6 weeks of ballistic competition to be ready, this should have been given him by the upper management but they are unaware of training timelines with each individual, let alone Joe and his regimen.
With Marshalls Crowstep mechanic Joe produced a completely non-injurious force application (I’ll bet the brain trust did not understand this also) and would have been able to pitch competitively into his mid fifties, this would have given him a 25 year career?
He was in the process of shutting it all down late in the spring because nobody wanted to hand him the ball, a this point I believe he had already joined the Navy. He was just demonstrating what the possibilities were and are by completing his training and finishing experimentations with and for Marshall so they could record the results of the full training program plus the recoil program. The Cardinal lower development people wanted to take a look so they invited Marshall and Joe to come on over for a while.
Now, I don’t know about them or you but if it were me I would have had every inning and angle high speed video’d of Joe for my programs (this should be done with all) evolvement, maybe they don’t have a year round intense program and pros can just do it the way it has always been done by just showing up for spring training?
Baseballpapa,
He threw with maximal effort every time on every pitch, I believe his fastballs if you meant how much velocity he had at that time had a pretty good tail on it to both sides was 86 to 90 and when he would have attained full ballistic shape after 6 weeks of competition he would have been 88 to 92 and possibly even higher months later. Joe was a lefty.
quote:“Here's an article with an interview with Williams while with the Cardinals for those interested”.
Nobody cares TPM accept you! You are the one posting questions and making comments on this subject, I have answered all your question with my opinion and always will, I wish you would do the same.
quote:”I am not going to say anything negative towards him”
Yet, the reason for your questions and original thoughts are un-known?
quote:“I give him lots of credit for trying to get back in the game”
What he went through to get back was grueling, long and what nobody on earth has game through to get ready correctly for competition and he succeeded but that’s not nothing compared to what he is going through right now getting ready for elite military competition. Good thing he went through Dr.Marshalls program and was taught what it takes to get ready.
quote:It's unfortunate that instead of being a bit thankful for the opportunity(which he was).
What does his humble reaction have to do with others thoughts on the subject?
You have a problem lumping peoples thoughts together that is quit unsettling.
quote:“you guys turned the whole thing around”
Is this what your after? A recognition by me (to you us) that I have a different opinion than his?
quote:Perhaps that's why you all have to hide behind whoever you say is one of your pupils.
You live in this perhaps, maybe, coulda, world that is probably going to turn into shoulda.
I have not said who is one of my pupils ever! Sanches is it and again because you asked not because I originally give this information, They have all been dug out by concerned posters like you.
quote:“no one wants to deal with the negative stuff afterwards”
What do you consider this line of statements you are bringing here are?
You trying to start a negative snotty argument because this is how you get people riled up and make negative posting rhetoric increases, that get them removed as you did it in the past, will not work with me, please clean up your drive.
quote:He was 28 years old, where did you think he would be assigned?
When an adult athlete has trained correctly “sport specifically” for 720 days straight he can then start his maintenance program that includes the decreasing of weight and reps of hid overload training and increase his ballistic training daily, this is where Joe was in his training, just starting to throw to catchers. At this point he should have thrown to catchers for 2 weeks then live batting practice batters for two weeks then scrimmage live competition for two weeks then game competition. Joe skipped 2 phases and was asked to throw competition in extended spring, he did so well for that week that they asked him to sign and go right to AA. This is OK if the pitching coaches and managers know what they are doing, good luck with that. Joe needed 6 weeks of ballistic competition to be ready, this should have been given him by the upper management but they are unaware of training timelines with each individual, let alone Joe and his regimen.
With Marshalls Crowstep mechanic Joe produced a completely non-injurious force application (I’ll bet the brain trust did not understand this also) and would have been able to pitch competitively into his mid fifties, this would have given him a 25 year career?
quote:Why don't you prepare your guys to work with catchers so when the opportunity arises they are ready?
He was in the process of shutting it all down late in the spring because nobody wanted to hand him the ball, a this point I believe he had already joined the Navy. He was just demonstrating what the possibilities were and are by completing his training and finishing experimentations with and for Marshall so they could record the results of the full training program plus the recoil program. The Cardinal lower development people wanted to take a look so they invited Marshall and Joe to come on over for a while.
Now, I don’t know about them or you but if it were me I would have had every inning and angle high speed video’d of Joe for my programs (this should be done with all) evolvement, maybe they don’t have a year round intense program and pros can just do it the way it has always been done by just showing up for spring training?
Baseballpapa,
quote:“How hard did he throw?”
He threw with maximal effort every time on every pitch, I believe his fastballs if you meant how much velocity he had at that time had a pretty good tail on it to both sides was 86 to 90 and when he would have attained full ballistic shape after 6 weeks of competition he would have been 88 to 92 and possibly even higher months later. Joe was a lefty.
YB,
XOXOXO
XOXOXO
