Not only does it look rediculous, the kid isn't pitching from the rubber.quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by FlippJ:
Can you post a clip of this young pitcher you're talking about? I'd like to see what he looks like.
I'd love to see this too.
The one full Marshall kid I've seen looks ridiculous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_fX9x38B58&feature=related
RJM,
History!! Erik Chavez hit over 25 bombs when he was twelve , I can go on and on
and so can many others here.
I was not aware other regions played less or more games myself?
An all or nothing statement does not convey what he actually states.
I have no parental control when it comes to the fathers but if the mother is involved
and reads Marshall’s material then most of the time competitive innings recommendations are followed.
He was concerned about your son! He is an expert in these matters!
I believe someone else called you this and was explaining it to Marshall.
Are your feelings still hurt? I’m sure glad this thread always turns into a bunch of personal baggage. Not!
I asked him for advice over a decade ago about all this injury proliferation and he said I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, I got over it when I found out he was telling me the truth.
This does not seem like a better question?
An appropriate question is how many instructors are applying Marshall tenets in any degree from the initial Provenance timeline to present. I only know of a one to have had the chance to produce an MLB player Marshall himself and I think he has produced 2 MLB players with his tenets to some degree and helped many more directly and indirectly. As of this time I only know of me and a couple more that have put Marshall’s theories to the full test with training and game results and it’s all working the way he said it would!
Watch this year as in all the previous 5 years and you will notice more and more MLB pitchers start to add tenets, I have noticed it but then you will have to play with it to understand it to recognize it.
What makes you think traditional pitchers do anything different?
quote:“Why would anyone consider anything accomplished in LL to be relevant to the future?
History!! Erik Chavez hit over 25 bombs when he was twelve , I can go on and on
and so can many others here.
quote:“However, if I let my son pitch six innings a week through the playoffs he could have pitched eleven games. That would be sixty-six innings.”
I was not aware other regions played less or more games myself?
quote:“I thought part of Marshall's mantra was preteens shouldn't be pitching.”
An all or nothing statement does not convey what he actually states.
I have no parental control when it comes to the fathers but if the mother is involved
and reads Marshall’s material then most of the time competitive innings recommendations are followed.
quote:“He called me a child abuser for letting my son pitch when he was a preteener.”
He was concerned about your son! He is an expert in these matters!
I believe someone else called you this and was explaining it to Marshall.
Are your feelings still hurt? I’m sure glad this thread always turns into a bunch of personal baggage. Not!
I asked him for advice over a decade ago about all this injury proliferation and he said I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, I got over it when I found out he was telling me the truth.
quote:“Better question: How many Marshall pitchers have ended up in MLB after thirty, forty years of research?”
This does not seem like a better question?
An appropriate question is how many instructors are applying Marshall tenets in any degree from the initial Provenance timeline to present. I only know of a one to have had the chance to produce an MLB player Marshall himself and I think he has produced 2 MLB players with his tenets to some degree and helped many more directly and indirectly. As of this time I only know of me and a couple more that have put Marshall’s theories to the full test with training and game results and it’s all working the way he said it would!
Watch this year as in all the previous 5 years and you will notice more and more MLB pitchers start to add tenets, I have noticed it but then you will have to play with it to understand it to recognize it.
quote:“the kid isn't pitching from the rubber.”
What makes you think traditional pitchers do anything different?
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
RJM,quote:“Why would anyone consider anything accomplished in LL to be relevant to the future?
History!! Erik Chavez hit over 25 bombs when he was twelve , I can go on and on
and so can many others here.quote:“However, if I let my son pitch six innings a week through the playoffs he could have pitched eleven games. That would be sixty-six innings.”
I was not aware other regions played less or more games myself?quote:“I thought part of Marshall's mantra was preteens shouldn't be pitching.”
An all or nothing statement does not convey what he actually states.
I have no parental control when it comes to the fathers but if the mother is involved
and reads Marshall’s material then most of the time competitive innings recommendations are followed.quote:“He called me a child abuser for letting my son pitch when he was a preteener.”
He was concerned about your son! He is an expert in these matters!
I believe someone else called you this and was explaining it to Marshall.
Are your feelings still hurt? I’m sure glad this thread always turns into a bunch of personal baggage. Not!
I asked him for advice over a decade ago about all this injury proliferation and he said I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, I got over it when I found out he was telling me the truth.
quote:“Better question: How many Marshall pitchers have ended up in MLB after thirty, forty years of research?”
This does not seem like a better question?
An appropriate question is how many instructors are applying Marshall tenets in any degree from the initial Provenance timeline to present. I only know of a one to have had the chance to produce an MLB player Marshall himself and I think he has produced 2 MLB players with his tenets to some degree and helped many more directly and indirectly. As of this time I only know of me and a couple more that have put Marshall’s theories to the full test with training and game results and it’s all working the way he said it would!
Watch this year as in all the previous 5 years and you will notice more and more MLB pitchers start to add tenets, I have noticed it but then you will have to play with it to understand it to recognize it.quote:“the kid isn't pitching from the rubber.”
What makes you think traditional pitchers do anything different?
1) There are plenty of LL studs who weren't good by high school. I don't know any sane people who say accomplishments on the small fields is an indicator of future success.
2) Net: Like the other poster, I don't believe the 202 K's
3) Marshall has made it clear preteens should not be pitching competitively.
4) Marshall doesn't know a thing about my son. He made the statement after asking if my son pitched in LL. My son is now a high school soph who has never had as much as a day with a sore arm.
5) You dodged the question. The question is how many Marshall proteges are pitching in major league baseball? I know the answer. It's why you dodged the question.
6) A normal pitcher's foot releases from the rubber before release of the ball. The kid in the video is jumping away from the rubber. By the way, he's in deep doo if a rocket comes back at him.
There's no need to converse further. You regurgitated the exact mantra as all the other Marshallites. I've heard it all before. I was hoping there was one person in the cult who could think for themselves.
RJM
Who cares, this is not what we were discussing. It goes both ways
Who cares, this is not what we were discussing.
He has maximum guidelines to follow at each Biological age level to safely procede. You and I may think they are too stringent but remember he is the expert here, not us. If a child is chronologically 12 and is biologically 13 or 14 then he is OK with them pitching during the spring at low innings.
I tell my clients to go by Marshall’s recommendations but have no real control of how much the parents let them perform. I am adamant about competitive pitching other than spring for biologically 16 and below when all the growth plates in the elbows have solidified. We all have this new phenomenon and all it’s false hype to deal with called club ball that has produced 7 times as many arm injuries that were produced before it’s inception. I do not recommend club ball for any of my clients (pitchers) and we still make HS teams and compete well.
Neither do I but I care.
If you are that concerned about it then post all the e-mails that are associated so that you can prove your point for the people whom care. I do not; I’m here to explain mechanics and results.
I answered your actual question with in the body of my answer, perhaps you missed it.
Well that is a lot different than “have”. I will do my best to answer your new question.
Currently the group he has been working on has come in with various entry speeds, mechanics and injuries. I know of 2 kid’s who came in traditional non injured who both play in College now. Both these kids came to him in the high 70’s to low 80’s and I have no clue where they are now changed over to Full Marshall. Deemax said he was going to go see one of them, maybe? Currently there are no MLB players using all of Marshall’s tenets but there are some using more than others with the MTS scale.
The closest any MLB player ever used is 65% of his tenets.
Only the pitchers that use over 80% of the tenets (bottom half late full rotation) are not handed the BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So how could one ever make it to the show, besides Marshall does not get Fresh Fast twitchers like I do. I can imagine what would happen if he were given one of our ultra
Fast pitchers to work with and I know these mechanics are the only chance to see mid hundred velocities with out injury!
What is the purpose of your question if you already new the answer and how would you know who Marshall works with to have an answer that is truthful?
I do not know what you mean by normal? If you mean traditional or conventional you are exactly right and every kinescope, Film and video ever taken proves it, when traditional pitchers release the ball their ball arm leg has already left the rubber illegally.
You are opening up a can of worms here if you pursue rules tightness on this subject.
Traditional pitchers if asked to have their foot in contact with the rubber when they
Actually release would totally destroy their timing. Some are inches away and up to 18
Inches away, Marshall’s kid is 3 feet away but still posted through at the Glove side leg.
It is much farther off the rubber than traditional pitchers for sure but is actually performing the same with more late rotation.
The jumping part is being corrected along with many other aspects, let’s not think a 12 year old who has just started throwing in this manor has it right yet.
It seems there was no need to converse from the start, you just needed to vent.
By this comment you have exposed your ventfulness to the max.
The difference here is you actually have somebody who has performed, taught and competed with these mechanics and wants to share the results in a positive manor but has to deal with individuals bent on changing the thread into some kind of personal vendetta that has nothing to do with ME.
I am this one person and your personal jab at me is par for the course for some here and everywhere. I guess I must be guilty of mechanical association or something.
I sure hope you wish to converse further because I can’t get anybody who is actually
a pitching coach to join in and discus the positive aspects of this.
quote:“There are plenty of LL studs who weren't good by high school. I don't know any sane people who say accomplishments on the small fields is an indicator of future success.”
Who cares, this is not what we were discussing. It goes both ways
quote:” Net: Like the other poster, I don't believe the 202 K's”
Who cares, this is not what we were discussing.
quote:” Marshall has made it clear preteens should not be pitching competitively.”
He has maximum guidelines to follow at each Biological age level to safely procede. You and I may think they are too stringent but remember he is the expert here, not us. If a child is chronologically 12 and is biologically 13 or 14 then he is OK with them pitching during the spring at low innings.
I tell my clients to go by Marshall’s recommendations but have no real control of how much the parents let them perform. I am adamant about competitive pitching other than spring for biologically 16 and below when all the growth plates in the elbows have solidified. We all have this new phenomenon and all it’s false hype to deal with called club ball that has produced 7 times as many arm injuries that were produced before it’s inception. I do not recommend club ball for any of my clients (pitchers) and we still make HS teams and compete well.
quote:“Marshall doesn't know a thing about my son.”
Neither do I but I care.
quote:“He made the statement after asking if my son pitched in LL.”
If you are that concerned about it then post all the e-mails that are associated so that you can prove your point for the people whom care. I do not; I’m here to explain mechanics and results.
quote:”You dodged the question.”
I answered your actual question with in the body of my answer, perhaps you missed it.
quote:“The question is how many Marshall proteges are pitching in major league baseball?”
Well that is a lot different than “have”. I will do my best to answer your new question.
Currently the group he has been working on has come in with various entry speeds, mechanics and injuries. I know of 2 kid’s who came in traditional non injured who both play in College now. Both these kids came to him in the high 70’s to low 80’s and I have no clue where they are now changed over to Full Marshall. Deemax said he was going to go see one of them, maybe? Currently there are no MLB players using all of Marshall’s tenets but there are some using more than others with the MTS scale.
The closest any MLB player ever used is 65% of his tenets.
Only the pitchers that use over 80% of the tenets (bottom half late full rotation) are not handed the BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So how could one ever make it to the show, besides Marshall does not get Fresh Fast twitchers like I do. I can imagine what would happen if he were given one of our ultra
Fast pitchers to work with and I know these mechanics are the only chance to see mid hundred velocities with out injury!
quote:“ I know the answer. It's why you dodged the question.”
What is the purpose of your question if you already new the answer and how would you know who Marshall works with to have an answer that is truthful?
quote:”A normal pitcher's foot releases from the rubber before release of the ball.”
I do not know what you mean by normal? If you mean traditional or conventional you are exactly right and every kinescope, Film and video ever taken proves it, when traditional pitchers release the ball their ball arm leg has already left the rubber illegally.
You are opening up a can of worms here if you pursue rules tightness on this subject.
Traditional pitchers if asked to have their foot in contact with the rubber when they
Actually release would totally destroy their timing. Some are inches away and up to 18
Inches away, Marshall’s kid is 3 feet away but still posted through at the Glove side leg.
quote:“The kid in the video is jumping away from the rubber.”
It is much farther off the rubber than traditional pitchers for sure but is actually performing the same with more late rotation.
The jumping part is being corrected along with many other aspects, let’s not think a 12 year old who has just started throwing in this manor has it right yet.
quote:“There's no need to converse further.”
It seems there was no need to converse from the start, you just needed to vent.
quote:“You regurgitated the exact mantra as all the other Marshallites. I've heard it all before. I was hoping there was one person in the cult who could think for themselves.”
By this comment you have exposed your ventfulness to the max.
The difference here is you actually have somebody who has performed, taught and competed with these mechanics and wants to share the results in a positive manor but has to deal with individuals bent on changing the thread into some kind of personal vendetta that has nothing to do with ME.
I am this one person and your personal jab at me is par for the course for some here and everywhere. I guess I must be guilty of mechanical association or something.
I sure hope you wish to converse further because I can’t get anybody who is actually
a pitching coach to join in and discus the positive aspects of this.
Another spring training starts in 3 days, and still no Marshall disciples in MLB.
Another NCAA D1 season starts in 9 days, and still no Marshall disciples playing D1 ball.
Each spring that passes with no proof of the benefits of his theories puts yet another nail in Marshall's coffin.
Another NCAA D1 season starts in 9 days, and still no Marshall disciples playing D1 ball.
Each spring that passes with no proof of the benefits of his theories puts yet another nail in Marshall's coffin.
The should do the television show Who wants to be an MLB pitcher? (Or whatever it was called) that House did only let marshall do it. See what results he gets.
MTH,
So, you would be the one who is going to hand one of them ( Full 100% late rotational cro-step mechanic) the ball?
Marshall has two x-pros who are ready but are not being given the ball.
He has many ready and playing in lower division College teams who were not even considered before they showed up at his door out of HS.
He does not train young pitchers with fast-twitch superiority like me, he works on previously injured pitchers who are ready to move on and compete.
I currently have 6 Div.1 players pitching, 3 in the pac.10, many in lower division College and several in JC down here where the JC’s all play with div1 talent, My current group of HS seniors are doing very well here. One is rated at the top levels in this years draft!! Unfortunatly we must hide ( with an acquiesing leg lift) what we want to actually do to get higher level acceptance. This senario still leaves us with the all important top half mechanics that gives us at least 60 to 70% of the tenets and a healthy future.
One of my JC Marshall kids set the school record for Strike outs in a season and a single game and had back to back 19 and 15 K games at Orange Coast College.
He broke the record that was held since 1953. He was drafted 3 times. You should have seen his pronated curve and screwball. Throwing in the low 9’s did not hurt either.
We have had many awards in the past including all-CIF 1st and 2nd team, All league HS pitchers. One of our first Marshall trained pitchers pitched in this years AFLAC game at Dodger stadium. How are you expected to know all of this? and how many coaches are actually teaching these mechanics to have your statements achieve any merit? things take time.
His theories are spot on correct!! We use a cats paw for the Coffin problem!
As you can see there has been great progress even though we are swimming up streem
trying to get out the truthful information against what is falsely said everywhere.
quote:“Another spring training starts in 3 days, and still no Marshall disciples in MLB.”
So, you would be the one who is going to hand one of them ( Full 100% late rotational cro-step mechanic) the ball?
Marshall has two x-pros who are ready but are not being given the ball.
He has many ready and playing in lower division College teams who were not even considered before they showed up at his door out of HS.
He does not train young pitchers with fast-twitch superiority like me, he works on previously injured pitchers who are ready to move on and compete.
quote:”Another NCAA D1 season starts in 9 days, and still no Marshall disciples playing D1 ball.”
I currently have 6 Div.1 players pitching, 3 in the pac.10, many in lower division College and several in JC down here where the JC’s all play with div1 talent, My current group of HS seniors are doing very well here. One is rated at the top levels in this years draft!! Unfortunatly we must hide ( with an acquiesing leg lift) what we want to actually do to get higher level acceptance. This senario still leaves us with the all important top half mechanics that gives us at least 60 to 70% of the tenets and a healthy future.
quote:”Each spring that passes with no proof of the benefits”
One of my JC Marshall kids set the school record for Strike outs in a season and a single game and had back to back 19 and 15 K games at Orange Coast College.
He broke the record that was held since 1953. He was drafted 3 times. You should have seen his pronated curve and screwball. Throwing in the low 9’s did not hurt either.
We have had many awards in the past including all-CIF 1st and 2nd team, All league HS pitchers. One of our first Marshall trained pitchers pitched in this years AFLAC game at Dodger stadium. How are you expected to know all of this? and how many coaches are actually teaching these mechanics to have your statements achieve any merit? things take time.
quote:“his theories puts yet another nail in Marshall's coffin.”
His theories are spot on correct!! We use a cats paw for the Coffin problem!
As you can see there has been great progress even though we are swimming up streem
trying to get out the truthful information against what is falsely said everywhere.
Yardbird---
You talk in riddles just like a "cult" leader>
You talk in riddles just like a "cult" leader>
BobbleheadDoll,
You would have to had known that Dr.Marshall was a head coach at three Colleges before he started offering his information to the public and that he has apologized for not pushing this information before then.
That covers the College side. Since he does not work with youth, guys like me are going to have to do that.
1- Dr.Marshall himself is number one; he used 50 % of his new upper half mechanics on himself and held half of the records that he still holds using these injury proof mechanics.
He was the first closer to win a Cy Young award and finished in the top 5 in voting 5 different years. Oh I know what your going to say it was not the full version, well it still counts as a radical change in delivery that proved to bullet proof him.
2-James Jeffrey Sparks after striking out 600 in three years a in the MiLB when brought to the MLB as the celebrated beginning of the season closer for Tampa bay and struck out 41 batters in 25 innings still maintaining his incredible K ratio, I’m not sure but I think he holds the strike out k ratio per game in all of the MLB. Sparks used 60% of the Marshall tenets on purpose as to pass by his unawares-pro coaches.
He has worked with many MLB pitchers also; one came in throwing 90 and after a month with Marshall came out throwing 102. Rudy Sainez
Roger Clemens made three major changes in his delivery after he left Boston to clean up
his injurious delivery after working with a Marshall trained instructor. Can you name the tenet changes? Ya think he’s good enough?
There are more, I’ll let you dig them out if you can, I’m here to talk mechanics not these meaningless side issues.
The same thing they are still doing! Blowing up their arms.
Can you imagine if pitchers were seldom injured or not at all? Kerry Lightenberg, Darren Dreifort and a 1000 other guys would still be pitching and there would be no room to move up for the slightly less fastball gifted like today.
Maybe this is a good reason to keep the traditional motion so that more pitchers get a shot? SLOL
Coach2709,
Proved!
You’re handle makes it look like you are a coach? Do you know all the Marshall tenets or
just some of them or none? I would suggest you take a look!
Trhit,
What does your ability to comprehend reading material have to do with mechanics?
Then what is it? I have been called a Cultist and the Cult leader now. I hope you don’t accuse me of spiking the Kool Aid like Jones did.
Please explain this riddle so that I can better explain it to you?
quote:“Yaedbird if they are lies name some of the Marshall guys who have played MLB and college ball.”
You would have to had known that Dr.Marshall was a head coach at three Colleges before he started offering his information to the public and that he has apologized for not pushing this information before then.
That covers the College side. Since he does not work with youth, guys like me are going to have to do that.
1- Dr.Marshall himself is number one; he used 50 % of his new upper half mechanics on himself and held half of the records that he still holds using these injury proof mechanics.
He was the first closer to win a Cy Young award and finished in the top 5 in voting 5 different years. Oh I know what your going to say it was not the full version, well it still counts as a radical change in delivery that proved to bullet proof him.
2-James Jeffrey Sparks after striking out 600 in three years a in the MiLB when brought to the MLB as the celebrated beginning of the season closer for Tampa bay and struck out 41 batters in 25 innings still maintaining his incredible K ratio, I’m not sure but I think he holds the strike out k ratio per game in all of the MLB. Sparks used 60% of the Marshall tenets on purpose as to pass by his unawares-pro coaches.
He has worked with many MLB pitchers also; one came in throwing 90 and after a month with Marshall came out throwing 102. Rudy Sainez
Roger Clemens made three major changes in his delivery after he left Boston to clean up
his injurious delivery after working with a Marshall trained instructor. Can you name the tenet changes? Ya think he’s good enough?
There are more, I’ll let you dig them out if you can, I’m here to talk mechanics not these meaningless side issues.
quote:”What did people ever do before Dr Marshall?”
The same thing they are still doing! Blowing up their arms.
Can you imagine if pitchers were seldom injured or not at all? Kerry Lightenberg, Darren Dreifort and a 1000 other guys would still be pitching and there would be no room to move up for the slightly less fastball gifted like today.
Maybe this is a good reason to keep the traditional motion so that more pitchers get a shot? SLOL
Coach2709,
quote:“then prove it”
Proved!
You’re handle makes it look like you are a coach? Do you know all the Marshall tenets or
just some of them or none? I would suggest you take a look!
Trhit,
quote:“You talk in riddles just like a "cult" leader>”
What does your ability to comprehend reading material have to do with mechanics?
Then what is it? I have been called a Cultist and the Cult leader now. I hope you don’t accuse me of spiking the Kool Aid like Jones did.
Please explain this riddle so that I can better explain it to you?
Wow taking credit for Clemens ? That is a joke.
You are starting to become even less credible.
You are starting to become even less credible.
BobbleheadDoll,
Just allowing him to continue, healthier.
The only joke being played here are your posts that have no value to youth pitchers.
I hope this changes?
This would only be true if you had given me some credit all ready!
I can see that new information is hard for you to take and you are only here to disrupt.
I’ll show you one of the tenets that Clemens changed and that is unbelievable to most traditional coaches who believe it is not possible.
Watch how Clemens drives and releases the ball during the delivery of his Cutter and Slider? Pronated, He was taught this elbow saving mechanic and is caught on High-speed video. This is not how traditional pitchers like Clemens were taught how to throw Sliders and cutters! They are taught to supinate that slams the elbow together in a ballistic manor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evitsfnNgR0
quote:“Wow taking credit for Clemens ?”
Just allowing him to continue, healthier.
quote:“That is a joke.”
The only joke being played here are your posts that have no value to youth pitchers.
I hope this changes?
quote:“You are starting to become even less credible.”
This would only be true if you had given me some credit all ready!
I can see that new information is hard for you to take and you are only here to disrupt.
I’ll show you one of the tenets that Clemens changed and that is unbelievable to most traditional coaches who believe it is not possible.
Watch how Clemens drives and releases the ball during the delivery of his Cutter and Slider? Pronated, He was taught this elbow saving mechanic and is caught on High-speed video. This is not how traditional pitchers like Clemens were taught how to throw Sliders and cutters! They are taught to supinate that slams the elbow together in a ballistic manor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evitsfnNgR0
There's a simple reason why Sparks was not highly regarded.
MLB: 30 walks in 30 innings
MiLB: 328 walks in 493 innings
I believe he as waived by Tampa immediately after coming in with runners on and walking the park.
Sparks and Seanez were pro pitchers before encountering Marshall. They implemented some of his technique, not his prescribed pitching style. I believe the arbitrary number stated for Sparks is 60%.
MLB: 30 walks in 30 innings
MiLB: 328 walks in 493 innings
I believe he as waived by Tampa immediately after coming in with runners on and walking the park.
Sparks and Seanez were pro pitchers before encountering Marshall. They implemented some of his technique, not his prescribed pitching style. I believe the arbitrary number stated for Sparks is 60%.
Marshall did not invent pronation. My 15 yr old son throws a pronated slider just like Clemmons shows in his video. He never even heard of Marshall.
I tried to cut and paste this from baseball-reference.com but it came out a jumbled mess so I'm going to put the relative numbers.
Here is the website for a direct link to the numbers http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sparkje01.shtml
Jeff Sparks stats
Years in the major leagues - 2 (1999 - 2000)
Wins - 0
Loss - 1
Games - 23
Started - 0
Saves - 1
IP - 30.3
Hits - 19
Runs - 14
Earned - 14
HR - 3
BB - 30
SO - 41
HBP - 3
Wild P - 4
ERA - 4.15
Not exactly numbers I would want to base mycult revolutionary technique on.
So once again - who are the successful guys who buy into Marshall's garbage?
Here is the website for a direct link to the numbers http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sparkje01.shtml
Jeff Sparks stats
Years in the major leagues - 2 (1999 - 2000)
Wins - 0
Loss - 1
Games - 23
Started - 0
Saves - 1
IP - 30.3
Hits - 19
Runs - 14
Earned - 14
HR - 3
BB - 30
SO - 41
HBP - 3
Wild P - 4
ERA - 4.15
Not exactly numbers I would want to base my
So once again - who are the successful guys who buy into Marshall's garbage?
Marshall promotes Sparks as his poster boy. He states a MLB conspiracy against his pitching philosophies prevented Sparks from staying in the majors. For a good laugh look Sparks Indy League stats after being released from the Rays. I believe he finally gave up when a Can-Am League team cut him in spring training.quote:So once again - who are the successful guys who buy into Marshall's garbage?
Sparks did eventually figure out how to be a successful fireman. He joined the fire department.
quote:He states a MLB conspiracy against his pitching philosophies prevented Sparks from staying in the majors.
You know this is what cracks me up.
Owners want money for their teams.
Coaches want players who can win.
So these two are going to conspire against "the greatest revolution in pitching mechanics the world has ever seen" and lose MILLIONS of dollars and lose tons of games just because they don't like Marshall? Yeah that makes sense.
It's real easy to get 30 owners who will stab each other in the back in a heartbeat to make an extra buck to all agree on the same thing. Then you have to involve the 100's of coaches to ensure the conspiracy.
When you google Mike Marshall this is the first video to pop up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjl3vJeFt0c
I would hate to think that this is the best evidence for my position. The worst part is the kid in this video will never have a chance in baseball because someone in his life drank the kool aid. That is the sad part of this whole thing.
I taped the AFLAC game. No Marshall type pitchers threw in that game for the West or the East Squad. No mixed mechanics, no energetic pronators, period.
RJM,
Yes, non-understanding and acceptance of the philosophies that he was trying to bring to the field! If he would have been left alone (mechanically) and been able to call the pitches he wanted to he would have thrived.
I’ve seen footage of some of the calls during this period and I have seen what goes on with regard to my Marshall pitchers. Marshall’s game involves hard movement to both sides that makes it very hard to call; I have seen Umpires do a great job and atrocious jobs involving trying to get into position to make a correct call. Marshall’s pitchers are taught to throw down the middle and have it break to the black.
This style game produces high strike out performance with a higher chance of getting a called ball. This style Sinking game also produces swinging taps where the infield should always be playing at double play depth. We don’t seem to be having any problems with accuracy ourselves.
Are you by saying this now denying that Sparks made it to the MLB, I think I am owed an apology here? Remember you posed the false allegation.
Wow! Immediately waived! Sounds like smart buisness management to me? Not.
They could have taken a different course with a positive outcome I believe.
Why did’nt they call Marshall and ask him about some suggestions, remember they had just found out that Marshall worked with him and they had to know Marshall is one of the top kinesiologists that has ever lived, who dropped the ball here?
Exactly right, both were rated a 100 on the MTS scale this means they were susceptible to continuing UCL stress and the rest of the traditionally associated injuries. With Saenez Marshall worked on getting his driveline straighter, his ball to arrive at the correct timeline at initial drive (protects the UCL) and some training techniques, I would have rated him at that time as a 300 but he has lost some of his taught mechanics and do not know how he trains.
Yes at this period (end of the 90’s) while Sparks could attain an 800 MTS rating he had to pitch with fewer tenets to acquiesce to the Devil Ray coaches. This is why I rated him at a 600 (60% Marshall tenets), he might have been a little less because he did not throw all the pitches. His low rating then still allowed him to pitch totally healthy. This kid came to Marshall with two previous UCL tears but since Marshall’s top half mechanics protects the UCL with ¼ the stress so he could then pitch.
Only for the Full Version, he knows Sparks while being close is rated even with the full mechanic at around a 850 and has some late rotational theory issues related to have been already propioceptivly engrained with the traditional driveline. I don’t think Sparks or any previously traditionally trained pitcher can attain Full Marshall even with Dr.Marshall’s extraordinary motor skill pedagogy but they get close enough.
I have tried with x-pro players who have hung it up due to severe injuries and they can only attain a 50% turnaround but can now throw pain free in their adult leagues.
No!!! He just knows everybody reacts the same like you! Aren’t you doing the same thing and still not be part of an organized conspiracy? I’m just now getting used to look of my full version pitchers. Even my more towards traditional pitchers are only held back by its aesthetics and acceptability.
I would say just making it to the MLB and striking out 41 in 26 innings is pretty successful. I wonder what some of the names are of the players he mowed down in the MiLB.
Beside I could care less about the MiLB or the MLB, I want all of my clients to attain a Masters degree.
I have more respect for him as a Fireman actually! I suspect you do to but it does not sound like it!
Can we now talk about mechanics or is this stuff to much for you to understand, which is OK, I can go slower if you want? You guys never want to talk mechanics and I don’t see any pitching coaches with any NADS willing to enter.
Bballman,
And he has not claimed this! Why would you state this?
He states this mechanic as one of his tenets at Drive and release.
Is this one of your tenets also?
He was the first Kinesiologist to call it out as the way to go.
He brought it to the NFL and they accepted it.
So, you’re telling me you have access to High-speed film or video of your child?
This is the only way you could possibly know this.
Post this video and let us all see it, I posted mine!
I hope he is doing what you say but I doubt it, you are probably missed diagnosing Pronation as involuntary snap back pronation from a hard supinated finish.
If your son is actually supinating his Slider he will lessen his elbow range of motion
In both directions flexion and extension.
Coach2709,
Hay, they’re the ones that said nobody ever played in the MLB that used Marshall mechanics, I still do not understand how they can make this call with out understanding the mechanics, they prove this every time you speak.
I noticed none of them posted Marshall’s MLB stats! and how did you do those lines across Cult?
Hmmm, garbage! That sounds adult? Snotty ness will not get you what you ask for
neither will false curiosity.
What cracks me up is how you can’t figure this out!
No, owners want to not give out money for their teams and never have.
Not at the cost of their traditions, this is proven out in every mechanical change from
High jumping to kicking a football!
These two hardly talk to each other, I guess you think there is Some GM or pitching coaches studying these mechanics and its information, I think not? This will only come in individually by players them selves as evidenced in the past 5 years.
You are correct here; do you see any other mechanical paths that eliminate injuries?
Do you teach centripetal mechanics (traditional) or center mass (Marshall).
Last year the owners paid out over $500,000,000.00 for no service.
Do you like him? I don’t seem to get any of my questions answered here, yet I answer all of your questions!
You’re the one calling out conspiracy.
This is good; you are interested in this garbage!
When I Google pitching injuries I get 267,000 hits?
Read back, this kid is just starting and I believe 11 YO, he has a long way to go!
Did you check out my 12 YO?
The worst part of this thing is you are proving my point about coaches like you who will subvert his efforts and not hand him the ball. The sad part is this statement can be weighed against every thing you have posted.
When life hands Koolness- drink Kool Aid
MTS,
Keep studying Marshall’s tenets and it will come to you and it might rub of on your kids.
Can you name the first three tenets that eliminate major injuries or is the only thing you can do is sell wolf tickets.
This kid floats between a 300 and a 400 rating just enough to protect his elbow and shoulder. This fall he made some more pitch improvements that I hope will be brought to the field? He now has all 6, we will see. When a kid is in the mid 9’s, foolish coaches usually take away all development with pitch proficiency in competition by using their old school thinking and take away pitches. Hopefully he will be calling his own games?
quote:“There's a simple reason why Sparks was not highly regarded.”
Yes, non-understanding and acceptance of the philosophies that he was trying to bring to the field! If he would have been left alone (mechanically) and been able to call the pitches he wanted to he would have thrived.
quote:”MLB: 30 walks in 30 innings, MiLB: 328 walks in 493 innings.”
I’ve seen footage of some of the calls during this period and I have seen what goes on with regard to my Marshall pitchers. Marshall’s game involves hard movement to both sides that makes it very hard to call; I have seen Umpires do a great job and atrocious jobs involving trying to get into position to make a correct call. Marshall’s pitchers are taught to throw down the middle and have it break to the black.
This style game produces high strike out performance with a higher chance of getting a called ball. This style Sinking game also produces swinging taps where the infield should always be playing at double play depth. We don’t seem to be having any problems with accuracy ourselves.
Are you by saying this now denying that Sparks made it to the MLB, I think I am owed an apology here? Remember you posed the false allegation.
quote:”I believe he as waived by Tampa immediately after coming in with runners on and walking the park.”
Wow! Immediately waived! Sounds like smart buisness management to me? Not.
They could have taken a different course with a positive outcome I believe.
Why did’nt they call Marshall and ask him about some suggestions, remember they had just found out that Marshall worked with him and they had to know Marshall is one of the top kinesiologists that has ever lived, who dropped the ball here?
quote:”Sparks and Seanez were pro pitchers before encountering Marshall. They implemented some of his technique, not his prescribed pitching style.”
Exactly right, both were rated a 100 on the MTS scale this means they were susceptible to continuing UCL stress and the rest of the traditionally associated injuries. With Saenez Marshall worked on getting his driveline straighter, his ball to arrive at the correct timeline at initial drive (protects the UCL) and some training techniques, I would have rated him at that time as a 300 but he has lost some of his taught mechanics and do not know how he trains.
quote:“I believe the arbitrary number stated for Sparks is 60%.”
Yes at this period (end of the 90’s) while Sparks could attain an 800 MTS rating he had to pitch with fewer tenets to acquiesce to the Devil Ray coaches. This is why I rated him at a 600 (60% Marshall tenets), he might have been a little less because he did not throw all the pitches. His low rating then still allowed him to pitch totally healthy. This kid came to Marshall with two previous UCL tears but since Marshall’s top half mechanics protects the UCL with ¼ the stress so he could then pitch.
quote:”Marshall promotes Sparks as his poster boy.”
Only for the Full Version, he knows Sparks while being close is rated even with the full mechanic at around a 850 and has some late rotational theory issues related to have been already propioceptivly engrained with the traditional driveline. I don’t think Sparks or any previously traditionally trained pitcher can attain Full Marshall even with Dr.Marshall’s extraordinary motor skill pedagogy but they get close enough.
I have tried with x-pro players who have hung it up due to severe injuries and they can only attain a 50% turnaround but can now throw pain free in their adult leagues.
quote:“He states a MLB conspiracy against his pitching philosophies prevented Sparks from staying in the majors.”
No!!! He just knows everybody reacts the same like you! Aren’t you doing the same thing and still not be part of an organized conspiracy? I’m just now getting used to look of my full version pitchers. Even my more towards traditional pitchers are only held back by its aesthetics and acceptability.
quote:“Sparks did eventually figure out how to be a successful fireman. He joined the fire department.”
I would say just making it to the MLB and striking out 41 in 26 innings is pretty successful. I wonder what some of the names are of the players he mowed down in the MiLB.
Beside I could care less about the MiLB or the MLB, I want all of my clients to attain a Masters degree.
I have more respect for him as a Fireman actually! I suspect you do to but it does not sound like it!
Can we now talk about mechanics or is this stuff to much for you to understand, which is OK, I can go slower if you want? You guys never want to talk mechanics and I don’t see any pitching coaches with any NADS willing to enter.
Bballman,
quote:“Marshall did not invent pronation.”
And he has not claimed this! Why would you state this?
He states this mechanic as one of his tenets at Drive and release.
Is this one of your tenets also?
He was the first Kinesiologist to call it out as the way to go.
He brought it to the NFL and they accepted it.
quote:“My 15 yr old son throws a pronated slider just like Clemmons shows in his video. He never even heard of Marshall.”
So, you’re telling me you have access to High-speed film or video of your child?
This is the only way you could possibly know this.
Post this video and let us all see it, I posted mine!
I hope he is doing what you say but I doubt it, you are probably missed diagnosing Pronation as involuntary snap back pronation from a hard supinated finish.
If your son is actually supinating his Slider he will lessen his elbow range of motion
In both directions flexion and extension.
Coach2709,
quote:“Not exactly numbers I would want to base my cult revolutionary technique on.”
Hay, they’re the ones that said nobody ever played in the MLB that used Marshall mechanics, I still do not understand how they can make this call with out understanding the mechanics, they prove this every time you speak.
I noticed none of them posted Marshall’s MLB stats! and how did you do those lines across Cult?
quote:“So once again - who are the successful guys who buy into Marshall's garbage?”
Hmmm, garbage! That sounds adult? Snotty ness will not get you what you ask for
neither will false curiosity.
quote:“You know this is what cracks me up.”
What cracks me up is how you can’t figure this out!
quote:”Owners want money for their teams.”
No, owners want to not give out money for their teams and never have.
quote:“Coaches want players who can win.”
Not at the cost of their traditions, this is proven out in every mechanical change from
High jumping to kicking a football!
quote:”So these two are going to conspire”
These two hardly talk to each other, I guess you think there is Some GM or pitching coaches studying these mechanics and its information, I think not? This will only come in individually by players them selves as evidenced in the past 5 years.
quote:"the greatest revolution in pitching mechanics the world has ever seen"
You are correct here; do you see any other mechanical paths that eliminate injuries?
Do you teach centripetal mechanics (traditional) or center mass (Marshall).
quote:“lose MILLIONS of dollars.”
Last year the owners paid out over $500,000,000.00 for no service.
quote:“just because they don't like Marshall?”
Do you like him? I don’t seem to get any of my questions answered here, yet I answer all of your questions!
quote:”It's real easy to get 30 owners who will stab each other in the back in a heartbeat to make an extra buck to all agree on the same thing. Then you have to involve the 100's of coaches to ensure the conspiracy.”
You’re the one calling out conspiracy.
quote:”When you google Mike Marshall”
This is good; you are interested in this garbage!
When I Google pitching injuries I get 267,000 hits?
quote:“I would hate to think that this is the best evidence for my position.”
Read back, this kid is just starting and I believe 11 YO, he has a long way to go!
Did you check out my 12 YO?
quote:The worst part is the kid in this video will never have a chance in baseball because someone in his life drank the kool aid. That is the sad part of this whole thing.
The worst part of this thing is you are proving my point about coaches like you who will subvert his efforts and not hand him the ball. The sad part is this statement can be weighed against every thing you have posted.
When life hands Koolness- drink Kool Aid
MTS,
quote:“I taped the AFLAC game. No Marshall type pitchers threw in that game for the West or the East Squad. No mixed mechanics, no energetic pronators, period.”
Keep studying Marshall’s tenets and it will come to you and it might rub of on your kids.
Can you name the first three tenets that eliminate major injuries or is the only thing you can do is sell wolf tickets.
This kid floats between a 300 and a 400 rating just enough to protect his elbow and shoulder. This fall he made some more pitch improvements that I hope will be brought to the field? He now has all 6, we will see. When a kid is in the mid 9’s, foolish coaches usually take away all development with pitch proficiency in competition by using their old school thinking and take away pitches. Hopefully he will be calling his own games?
I don't find much need in discussing irrelevant pitching technique that could hinder my son's opportunity to pitch in college. As for the condescension, stick it somewhere.quote:Can we now talk about mechanics or is this stuff to much for you to understand, which is OK, I can go slower if you want?
Yardbird, your reponse to my post that there were no pitchers using Marshall's tenets in the AFLAC game was a horrible soft shoe dance. I watched those pitchers in Super HD 1080i signal (TV is 1080P with 120 mz refresh rate) and they all were very traditional pitchers that threw fastball, change up, sliders and curveballs. Again there was no exagerated pronation by any pitcher in HD.
RJM
So, taking players who have no place to play that seek more baseball field time and want to pursue a college education while still playing some baseball by working their tails off training to get better to do so is not a worthy pursuit?
I personally would encourage all youth players to continue training and playing if that is their desire in any form especially with the company of Marshall personally.
I all ready confest to that, that would be Kool Aid (water) into Champagne (wine). Remember?
And how would you name yourself when you look back at this comment?
2 years to do it right, Marshall knows that he is not needed for his pedagogy to be repeated by others! He actually wants and has had the fathers control and administer the training and performance scheduling and believes the Mothers would do a better job! Most of these kids end up with Marshall I believe to actually learn how to be Kinesiologists. Most of them are involved with some kind of medical or exercise science involvement in Colleges and what could be better than this arrangement. He charges 10 bucs a day, certainly that’s a lot less than most instructors and you get the top throwing expert on the planet. You make it sound like he’s inwardly rotating their humeri to the backside while simultaneously twisting his forearm in pronation to get them to come.
This means he may be Biologically 14 years old. This is great news! He will grow for a longer period of time. Get him x-rayed at his 16 th birthday, if they are not closed get them again at his 17th birthday if they are still not closed he is at that point one year behind, this is good unless your in a big hurry to see him stop growing?
That’s great , I’m pulling for him!
Bone deformation does not manifest itself in pain (sore arm) unless a crack appears in the plate. I never hurt myself either or got too sore until 40 and had pitched every day of my life Since College but my x-ray shows my right humerus (ball side) as ¾ of an inch shorter that the left (glove side). This subliminal damage while not debilitating is deformant and is why Marshall does not want even his non-injurious mechanic performed with biologically aged 12 and under. I say what’s a LL to do? Let all of them pitch and deform together at a lesser even rate? That’s OK with me just not with Marshall, whoopee.
This is good, lesser innings until he solidifies is the way to go.
More training and fewer games the better, proper training requires exercise protocols not used by today’s baseball establishments. These kids are playing in games to please every body and their different events. When an adult pitching athlete is finally in peak shape he should then play in games all year and maintain.With a non-injurious motion this can be done! High school pitching athletes should be in regression from hard training in the fall and winter and not be able to perform in games. This is the one thing I fight every year when all the unnecessary showcases, camps and HS winter league games start up.
Hay, it takes one to read one!
What’s that got to do with mechanics??????????????????????????????????????
Then why are you here, you seem to want to start some blood letting all the time; I don’t get it, would it be to have this thread removed?
Man, I can’t even imagine what was said to you in the past!
Can I apologize for them and me if you were offended in any way?
Now now I don’t think this kind of language needs to be read by our young viewers!
This is where we need the Moderators “line item veto” to clean up bad behavior and not destroy the good information!!!!!! I didn’t break down when you insulted me in harsher terms, I expect you to do the same from softer ones.
MTS
Yep, that would be him, you just got the traditional part wrong.
Again, your long-range views and low frame rates and possible knowledge of what constitutes Marshall’s first three tenets limits your recognition. Are you guys ever going to answer any of my questions? I’m going quid pro quo on you guys, now what did the rancher say?
quote:“I've only found Marshall pitchers (full buy in) at some average or below average D2 and D3 programs. I discovered some of his students weren't very good high school pitchers.”
So, taking players who have no place to play that seek more baseball field time and want to pursue a college education while still playing some baseball by working their tails off training to get better to do so is not a worthy pursuit?
I personally would encourage all youth players to continue training and playing if that is their desire in any form especially with the company of Marshall personally.
quote:”They must think Marshall can turn water into wine.”
I all ready confest to that, that would be Kool Aid (water) into Champagne (wine). Remember?
quote:“Marshall's a thief”
And how would you name yourself when you look back at this comment?
quote:“for taking their money and their time (more than a year).”
2 years to do it right, Marshall knows that he is not needed for his pedagogy to be repeated by others! He actually wants and has had the fathers control and administer the training and performance scheduling and believes the Mothers would do a better job! Most of these kids end up with Marshall I believe to actually learn how to be Kinesiologists. Most of them are involved with some kind of medical or exercise science involvement in Colleges and what could be better than this arrangement. He charges 10 bucs a day, certainly that’s a lot less than most instructors and you get the top throwing expert on the planet. You make it sound like he’s inwardly rotating their humeri to the backside while simultaneously twisting his forearm in pronation to get them to come.
quote:“His growth plates are still open as a 6'1", fifteen year old soph.”
This means he may be Biologically 14 years old. This is great news! He will grow for a longer period of time. Get him x-rayed at his 16 th birthday, if they are not closed get them again at his 17th birthday if they are still not closed he is at that point one year behind, this is good unless your in a big hurry to see him stop growing?
quote:“He's never had a sore arm.”
That’s great , I’m pulling for him!
Bone deformation does not manifest itself in pain (sore arm) unless a crack appears in the plate. I never hurt myself either or got too sore until 40 and had pitched every day of my life Since College but my x-ray shows my right humerus (ball side) as ¾ of an inch shorter that the left (glove side). This subliminal damage while not debilitating is deformant and is why Marshall does not want even his non-injurious mechanic performed with biologically aged 12 and under. I say what’s a LL to do? Let all of them pitch and deform together at a lesser even rate? That’s OK with me just not with Marshall, whoopee.
quote:“He's been used in relief the past three years due to his above average velocity and ability to throw strikes after a short warmup. He pitched about 50-60 innings in each of the past three years.”
This is good, lesser innings until he solidifies is the way to go.
More training and fewer games the better, proper training requires exercise protocols not used by today’s baseball establishments. These kids are playing in games to please every body and their different events. When an adult pitching athlete is finally in peak shape he should then play in games all year and maintain.With a non-injurious motion this can be done! High school pitching athletes should be in regression from hard training in the fall and winter and not be able to perform in games. This is the one thing I fight every year when all the unnecessary showcases, camps and HS winter league games start up.
quote:"is a kook."
Hay, it takes one to read one!
What’s that got to do with mechanics??????????????????????????????????????
quote:“I don't find much need in discussing irrelevant pitching technique that could hinder my son's opportunity to pitch in college.”
Then why are you here, you seem to want to start some blood letting all the time; I don’t get it, would it be to have this thread removed?
Man, I can’t even imagine what was said to you in the past!
Can I apologize for them and me if you were offended in any way?
quote:“As for the condescension, stick it somewhere.”
Now now I don’t think this kind of language needs to be read by our young viewers!
This is where we need the Moderators “line item veto” to clean up bad behavior and not destroy the good information!!!!!! I didn’t break down when you insulted me in harsher terms, I expect you to do the same from softer ones.
MTS
quote:“they all were very traditional pitchers that threw fastball, change up, sliders and curveballs.
Yep, that would be him, you just got the traditional part wrong.
quote:“Again there was no exagerated pronation by any pitcher in HD.”
Again, your long-range views and low frame rates and possible knowledge of what constitutes Marshall’s first three tenets limits your recognition. Are you guys ever going to answer any of my questions? I’m going quid pro quo on you guys, now what did the rancher say?
I believe wasting two years of a life in training just to play lower level college ball with no future past that is a waste of time. The kids should just go to college, move on with their life and find an adult league to play baseball for fun.quote:So, taking players who have no place to play that seek more baseball field time and want to pursue a college education while still playing some baseball by working their tails off training to get better to do so is not a worthy pursuit?
Do Marshallites think they've cormered the market on sensibility? You're not telling me anything I didn't know before encountering the cult. My kids have x-rays done as part of their annual and sometimes semi-annual sports medicine specialist checkup due to their heavy participation in organized sports since they were little.quote:This means he may be Biologically 14 years old. This is great news! He will grow for a longer period of time. Get him x-rayed at his 16 th birthday, if they are not closed get them again at his 17th birthday if they are still not closed he is at that point one year behind, this is good unless your in a big hurry to see him stop growing?
Who cares! I never hurt my arm when it mattered (LL through college). I tore my rotor at 40 while proving I could still throw hard from the outfield with players in their 20's. That was the end of playing. It was time to start coaching anyway.quote:I never hurt myself either or got too sore until 40 ...
Yardbird I will agree that no one will hurt their arm throwing like that kid in the video. My youngest daughter throws like that and she has never had a sore arm.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Yardbird I will agree that no one will hurt their arm throwing like that kid in the video. My youngest daughter throws like that and she has never had a sore arm.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Yardbird I will agree that no one will hurt their arm throwing like that kid in the video. My youngest daughter throws like that and she has never had a sore arm.
The frame rates are better than 30 frames per second my friend. The curveballs and sliders were not pronated. They were bringing their arm across the chest when they threw their curveballs and sliders. Why don't you show a clip of "your pitcher" in the AFLAC game? If we were playing poker I'd have your money because you'd have to show your cards. You want me to show my cards? Watch a MLB game.
My only question is you say all these guys were operating at 60% or just enough to stay healthy. So you say this is your goal, so why not just accpet the 60% and stop trying to teach them the other 40% (this is the 40% that probably looks "funny") Then maybe you get some of your guys in the bigs. They have great success who knows maybe you change their thought process and can implement the other 40%.
Also, you talk about all of the "traditional pitchers" that are injured. Have you done extensive research on the ones that were not injured? Why are those pitchers all exceptions? It just seems like if you look all "traditional pitchers" (MLB, MILB, College) you would find more guys that were never hurt versus ones that were hurt. I have not done the research, but I am also not trying to change the thought process of over a million people. It can not be all luck can it?
Also, you talk about all of the "traditional pitchers" that are injured. Have you done extensive research on the ones that were not injured? Why are those pitchers all exceptions? It just seems like if you look all "traditional pitchers" (MLB, MILB, College) you would find more guys that were never hurt versus ones that were hurt. I have not done the research, but I am also not trying to change the thought process of over a million people. It can not be all luck can it?
RJM,
Nothing limits them from attending higher level Colleges accept ability.
This is the exact same scenario that playing college freshman and many sophomores find them selves in accept they are loosing two years of eligibility sitting on the bench.
Marshall’s kids can still attend College while training. It does not matter any way
Marshall is not accepting any more private clients but it was worthwhile seeing how it should be done with traditional changeovers.
This is what they are doing just like everybody else, taking one more shot at getting in the over hyped pros that 99.999% of them will never attain.
No, answering your questions when you do not answer mine is a great way for youth players, fathers and coaches who want to learn this, more of an opportunity.
It’s just scientific information, this information as in all new information through out history must be ridiculed I guess for a while before people will forgive them for ruining the old way it was done. Changing mechanics in other sports has its history of intransigent disbelief but soon grows into an unstoppable force by way of its efficacy.
I’ll bet you have not missed one Sunday of Marshall personal e-mails at his web site. You seem to enjoy encountering it weekly, welcome to the cult. This is where the obedience training comes in just after recruitment, please do not believe you are immune to your involvement because our mind control is top notch, Your volunteer work will not proceed until you have passed the creating powerful emotional experiences workshop that starts after the mind control 101 and 2 class which you are now attending here. The supreme leader will anoint you with a participation certificate at your in a final ceremony following the sacred ritual dance during intermission at the masquerade ball.
This is great, you are doing it correct.
Again, I know you don’t care! You are only here to disrupt, I got that.
I care! and when answering your inexperienced comments about Marshall’s
Research, I am not actually talking to you because I know you will never answer
any of my questions. My audience is not the discombobulater’s, they are just a tool.
Everyone prefers to win. Do you have what it takes to do what is right?
BobbleheadDoll,
And how would you know that? You have proven through your disrespectful posts that you have learned nothing going over to Marshall’s site.
Lets see a video; I don’t believe you on this? Two can play at this non sense.
Marshall says when young children (2 year olds) throw with out being taught they throw naturally with a high arm vector because they have a large head to body relationship size difference that makes it imperative to keep your center of mass centered and they rotate to throw with their elbows up which is correct and then we take them from there and change their mechanics to a dangerous Valgas torque position (UCL overstress) at initial and middle force application other wise known as the “magic 90”meaning the humerus is at 90 degrees from the rib cage and the fore arm is up at 90 degrees from the upper arm. This ¾ position arm vector is the result of an injurious gateway start over early rotation with all body parts.
MTS,
Did you go back over it and realized what I told you was true that your angles and tightness wont allow you to diagnose this
What were those tenets? You got one right.
This is why he gets a bad score here, good call! I’ll bet he gets a better score than the other guys there because he does train and pitch bully’s with his elbow and palm up at deceleration, trying to stick it in his back pocket but like all previously traditionally trained 10 year olds getting rid of neural signals is very difficult.
Why don’t you? Quid pro quo, I’m one up!
We will see how good you are at plucking out the tenets.
Or? Why don’t you just go with your gut and dis-believe.
Look Maverick, I’ve already laid down and I’m holding pretty good!
When I look in your glasses I see your holding A’s and 8’s.
I would never ask you to show me your cards but yes the proliferation of higher level pitchers including the MLB learning the Sinking game and guys starting to straighten up, arrive in time and throw towards the inside center mass of your body rotation and finally learn the total pronated drive and release game is where my Tarot cards are telling me to go.
Pastime
Trnments,
Yes, It is a product of how far they want to go.
I actually have pitchers whom want to throw closer to traditionally and do but they are all aware of the risks and where they are, they do suffer from these associated injuries then apply a little more towards Marshall’s tenets and things calm down, they actually know where to take it in this regard. I have clients with ratings running all the way to an 8 at different ages and time spent. Our training regimen requires that the pitcher warm up doing a walk through Crow step on the mound with each pitch regardless of proficiency, with this I let them feel their own leg timing but try to keep the distances right for a late rotational finish. I have accepted it and am a total acquiescer when it comes to the father’s fear of mechanical repugnance. I have had many kids try out for HS that were very proficient with the full mechanic and wanted to keep it because it made them compete but are now playing other sports because these coaches when confronted with this dilema balked and did not hold live scrimmages like the good coaches do and they were gone. All of my clients now whether they have a bad or good rating are pretty expert at the full motion but develop their own style just like with traditional deliveries.
You have a keen sense! This is happening.
Yes, Marshall pitchers can actually pitch every day maximally although Marshall has a two-day between games scenario for adult pro players with a vigorous training schedule in between. Can you imagine an always healthy 3 man rotation only being allowed to pitch 3 time around the lineup then relief. Traditional pitchers whom even if they are throwing injury free are nicking away at several incorrect mechanical week points evidenced by the gateway injury inflammation.
I look at any pitcher and assign an MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum) rating to them,
Their Biological age makes the rating more sensitive for youth.
Level has no correlation in the rating.
There are many more that have been injured and multiple times than have not.
You should here the stories I hear every year for the last 30 years and witnessed when I was playing. Any body that in any way diminishes it is doing a dis service. We have witnessed whole starting staffs disappear many times at all levels.
Well, genetics and mechanical circumstances I believe dictate the outcomes.
If we were to pick just one and go over his history and actually get the entire discovery about his medical dealings in a career you might be able to talk about it. Good luck with that! Do you know how secretive arm and shoulder problems are in this game!! The worst being High school, like I said there are not many who get away from this.
Here is where major injuries rule the day, high-level pitchers who are high fast twitch
Percentage arms produce in respect to velocity the same increase in micro breakdown
all the way to failure.
It is daunting I wish Marshall posted here, I’m sure I miss-quote him sometimes and interject my own experience with this stuff and that’s probably not fair.
Setting the record straight for what it is can only be done if you have actually gave it a go and then produced results positive or negative, so far the only negative is the traditional dance I have to play.
Time will heal all arms.
quote:“I believe wasting two years of a life in training just to play lower level college ball with no future past that is a waste of time.”
Nothing limits them from attending higher level Colleges accept ability.
This is the exact same scenario that playing college freshman and many sophomores find them selves in accept they are loosing two years of eligibility sitting on the bench.
Marshall’s kids can still attend College while training. It does not matter any way
Marshall is not accepting any more private clients but it was worthwhile seeing how it should be done with traditional changeovers.
quote:‘The kids should just go to college, move on with their life and find an adult league to play baseball for fun.’
This is what they are doing just like everybody else, taking one more shot at getting in the over hyped pros that 99.999% of them will never attain.
quote:“Do Marshallites think they've cormered the market on sensibility?”
No, answering your questions when you do not answer mine is a great way for youth players, fathers and coaches who want to learn this, more of an opportunity.
It’s just scientific information, this information as in all new information through out history must be ridiculed I guess for a while before people will forgive them for ruining the old way it was done. Changing mechanics in other sports has its history of intransigent disbelief but soon grows into an unstoppable force by way of its efficacy.
quote:“You're not telling me anything I didn't know before encountering the cult.”
I’ll bet you have not missed one Sunday of Marshall personal e-mails at his web site. You seem to enjoy encountering it weekly, welcome to the cult. This is where the obedience training comes in just after recruitment, please do not believe you are immune to your involvement because our mind control is top notch, Your volunteer work will not proceed until you have passed the creating powerful emotional experiences workshop that starts after the mind control 101 and 2 class which you are now attending here. The supreme leader will anoint you with a participation certificate at your in a final ceremony following the sacred ritual dance during intermission at the masquerade ball.
quote:“My kids have x-rays done as part of their annual and sometimes semi-annual sports medicine specialist checkup due to their heavy participation in organized sports since they were little.”
This is great, you are doing it correct.
quote:“Who cares! I never hurt my arm when it mattered (LL through college).”
Again, I know you don’t care! You are only here to disrupt, I got that.
I care! and when answering your inexperienced comments about Marshall’s
Research, I am not actually talking to you because I know you will never answer
any of my questions. My audience is not the discombobulater’s, they are just a tool.
Everyone prefers to win. Do you have what it takes to do what is right?
BobbleheadDoll,
quote:“Yardbird I will agree that no one will hurt their arm throwing like that kid in the video.”
And how would you know that? You have proven through your disrespectful posts that you have learned nothing going over to Marshall’s site.
quote:“My youngest daughter throws like that and she has never had a sore arm.”
Lets see a video; I don’t believe you on this? Two can play at this non sense.
Marshall says when young children (2 year olds) throw with out being taught they throw naturally with a high arm vector because they have a large head to body relationship size difference that makes it imperative to keep your center of mass centered and they rotate to throw with their elbows up which is correct and then we take them from there and change their mechanics to a dangerous Valgas torque position (UCL overstress) at initial and middle force application other wise known as the “magic 90”meaning the humerus is at 90 degrees from the rib cage and the fore arm is up at 90 degrees from the upper arm. This ¾ position arm vector is the result of an injurious gateway start over early rotation with all body parts.
MTS,
quote:“The frame rates are better than 30 frames per second my friend.”
Did you go back over it and realized what I told you was true that your angles and tightness wont allow you to diagnose this
quote:“The curveballs and sliders were not pronated.”
What were those tenets? You got one right.
quote:“They were bringing their arm across the chest when they threw their curveballs and sliders.”
This is why he gets a bad score here, good call! I’ll bet he gets a better score than the other guys there because he does train and pitch bully’s with his elbow and palm up at deceleration, trying to stick it in his back pocket but like all previously traditionally trained 10 year olds getting rid of neural signals is very difficult.
quote:“Why don't you show a clip of "your pitcher" in the AFLAC game?”
Why don’t you? Quid pro quo, I’m one up!
We will see how good you are at plucking out the tenets.
Or? Why don’t you just go with your gut and dis-believe.
quote:“ If we were playing poker I'd have your money because you'd have to show your cards.”
Look Maverick, I’ve already laid down and I’m holding pretty good!
When I look in your glasses I see your holding A’s and 8’s.
quote:“You want me to show my cards? Watch a MLB game.”
I would never ask you to show me your cards but yes the proliferation of higher level pitchers including the MLB learning the Sinking game and guys starting to straighten up, arrive in time and throw towards the inside center mass of your body rotation and finally learn the total pronated drive and release game is where my Tarot cards are telling me to go.
Pastime
Trnments,
quote:“My only question is you say all these guys were operating at 60% or just enough to stay healthy.”
Yes, It is a product of how far they want to go.
quote:“So you say this is your goal, so why not just accpet the 60% and stop trying to teach them the other 40%”
I actually have pitchers whom want to throw closer to traditionally and do but they are all aware of the risks and where they are, they do suffer from these associated injuries then apply a little more towards Marshall’s tenets and things calm down, they actually know where to take it in this regard. I have clients with ratings running all the way to an 8 at different ages and time spent. Our training regimen requires that the pitcher warm up doing a walk through Crow step on the mound with each pitch regardless of proficiency, with this I let them feel their own leg timing but try to keep the distances right for a late rotational finish. I have accepted it and am a total acquiescer when it comes to the father’s fear of mechanical repugnance. I have had many kids try out for HS that were very proficient with the full mechanic and wanted to keep it because it made them compete but are now playing other sports because these coaches when confronted with this dilema balked and did not hold live scrimmages like the good coaches do and they were gone. All of my clients now whether they have a bad or good rating are pretty expert at the full motion but develop their own style just like with traditional deliveries.
quote:“(this is the 40% that probably looks "funny") Then maybe you get some of your guys in the bigs. They have great success who knows maybe you change their thought process and can implement the other 40%.”
You have a keen sense! This is happening.
quote:”Also, you talk about all of the "traditional pitchers" that are injured.”
Yes, Marshall pitchers can actually pitch every day maximally although Marshall has a two-day between games scenario for adult pro players with a vigorous training schedule in between. Can you imagine an always healthy 3 man rotation only being allowed to pitch 3 time around the lineup then relief. Traditional pitchers whom even if they are throwing injury free are nicking away at several incorrect mechanical week points evidenced by the gateway injury inflammation.
quote:“Have you done extensive research on the ones that were not injured?”
I look at any pitcher and assign an MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum) rating to them,
Their Biological age makes the rating more sensitive for youth.
Level has no correlation in the rating.
There are many more that have been injured and multiple times than have not.
You should here the stories I hear every year for the last 30 years and witnessed when I was playing. Any body that in any way diminishes it is doing a dis service. We have witnessed whole starting staffs disappear many times at all levels.
quote:“Why are those pitchers all exceptions?”
Well, genetics and mechanical circumstances I believe dictate the outcomes.
If we were to pick just one and go over his history and actually get the entire discovery about his medical dealings in a career you might be able to talk about it. Good luck with that! Do you know how secretive arm and shoulder problems are in this game!! The worst being High school, like I said there are not many who get away from this.
quote:“It just seems like if you look all "traditional pitchers" (MLB, MILB, College) you would find more guys that were never hurt versus ones that were hurt.”
Here is where major injuries rule the day, high-level pitchers who are high fast twitch
Percentage arms produce in respect to velocity the same increase in micro breakdown
all the way to failure.
quote:“I have not done the research, but I am also not trying to change the thought process of over a million people.”
It is daunting I wish Marshall posted here, I’m sure I miss-quote him sometimes and interject my own experience with this stuff and that’s probably not fair.
Setting the record straight for what it is can only be done if you have actually gave it a go and then produced results positive or negative, so far the only negative is the traditional dance I have to play.
quote:“It can not be all luck can it?”
Time will heal all arms.
Seems to me that this running debate, both here, and spilling over into other innocent Pitching threads is similar to another Holy War. We have entrenched & fervent believers on all sides, fighting over the same piece of land, known to many around the World as "The Bump".
Is in not possible for us to agree to disagree on The Way, and to instead turn our focus to a shared, higher ideal ... our common love of Baseball?
May peace, prosperity, arm health, and low ERA's be with you all. Not a sermon, just a thought.
southpaw_dad,
I think this is an excellent thread, simply because it tends to keep the for/against arguments confined here in this thread. In the past, the arguments have derailed many otherwise valuable threads. It still happens, but much less now.
I'm sure that you have read this advice before here and in other forums, but if you find this thread tiresome, just don't open it. That's the way I treat some of the discussions in the hitting forum.
I think this is an excellent thread, simply because it tends to keep the for/against arguments confined here in this thread. In the past, the arguments have derailed many otherwise valuable threads. It still happens, but much less now.
I'm sure that you have read this advice before here and in other forums, but if you find this thread tiresome, just don't open it. That's the way I treat some of the discussions in the hitting forum.
In fact Yardbird started and invited all anti Marshall posters (99.99% of population)to his thread to avoid cluttering other threads. Very commendable as long as he doesn't push his views in other threads. I do try to not comment but it is like flashing a red cape in front of a bull.
This is quite much akin to trying to recruit members to your cult and the recruiting is being done by already brainwashed aficionados--great fun to read but still quite innane
Yardbird,
You mentioned that a pitcher who has trained in the Marshall system at some point during his development pitched in the AFLAC game. Apparently he grades out at 300-400 on the MTS.
It would be great if you would name the pitcher, and list out the aspects of his mechanics which are in accordance with Marshall tenets, and those which are not. I can see no reason not to identify the pitcher; he certainly is a public figure in the world of baseball, he is in the top dozen or so pitchers of his age, and many people have seen him, and comment on him. There can't be the slightest question of his skill or success to date.
It would be useful to me personally. I have only moderate knowledge of pitching mechanics, and I am not willing to try to learn what Marshall means by terms like "driveline" and "total kinetic linkage" or "kinetic time line" and "nexus".
I'm not willing to put that effort in for two reasons.
So I want to take the easy way. Please show me some of the Marshall tenets, using a high quality, successful pitcher. Perhaps I'll even be able to see the pitcher live at some point.
Of course, there is the likelihood that when you describe the pitcher as using motion A, somebody else will see motion B. That kind of disagreement happens frequently over in the hitting forum. I think that comes about because we can see body positions, but we can only guess at the muscular effort expended in reaching those positions, and because of the limitations of typical video. But so what? At present, this thread has videos of young kids whose mechanics are so unusual that nobody wants to analyze their mechanics.
You mentioned that a pitcher who has trained in the Marshall system at some point during his development pitched in the AFLAC game. Apparently he grades out at 300-400 on the MTS.
It would be great if you would name the pitcher, and list out the aspects of his mechanics which are in accordance with Marshall tenets, and those which are not. I can see no reason not to identify the pitcher; he certainly is a public figure in the world of baseball, he is in the top dozen or so pitchers of his age, and many people have seen him, and comment on him. There can't be the slightest question of his skill or success to date.
It would be useful to me personally. I have only moderate knowledge of pitching mechanics, and I am not willing to try to learn what Marshall means by terms like "driveline" and "total kinetic linkage" or "kinetic time line" and "nexus".
I'm not willing to put that effort in for two reasons.
- The overwhelming majority of baseball people reject Marshall, so the odds of him being right aren't very high.
- I know very little about kinesiology, and so it isn't easy for me to evaluate Marshall's ideas. However, he has also written about the trajectories of baseballs, which I do understand well. There is a defined lexicon available from physics and aerodynamics, but Marshall makes up new terms, redefines (or misunderstands) existing terms, and then strings all this together into a seemingly wrong explanation. Or perhaps I misunderstand him, because his nomenclature is non-standard. In any case, in order to read and try to understand his thoughts on pitching mechanics, I would need to invest perhaps a hundred hours. What if those thoughts are of the same quality as his writings on trajectories?
So I want to take the easy way. Please show me some of the Marshall tenets, using a high quality, successful pitcher. Perhaps I'll even be able to see the pitcher live at some point.
Of course, there is the likelihood that when you describe the pitcher as using motion A, somebody else will see motion B. That kind of disagreement happens frequently over in the hitting forum. I think that comes about because we can see body positions, but we can only guess at the muscular effort expended in reaching those positions, and because of the limitations of typical video. But so what? At present, this thread has videos of young kids whose mechanics are so unusual that nobody wants to analyze their mechanics.
Yardbird,
First I agree with 3 fingered. I do not understand the terms well enough to fully grasp what is going on it text. So, I will continue to ask you questions to figure out if I want to put in a signifacant amount of time to do research. (I believe research can be spun anyway to make anyone believe what you are saying)
Questions 1:
How do your guys look when they play catch?
Question 2:
According to most everything I have read, Marshall prevents injuries by replacing the arm swing motion and the way the hips open correct? I am aware there is way more but to keep it short)
Question 3:
So if I throw everyday just playing a max effort catch traditionally will I be injured?
Question 4:
If I would not be injured or shows signs of being injured. Then what is the variable that causes me to be injured on the mound?
Question 5:
Softball pitchers and Marshall have any correlation?
I throw BP at max effort towards the end of the year for about a week straight. I am in full traditional wind up and off the mound. I am a lefty. We see a lot of lefties in sectionals. So it helps for them to face me. The only injury or pain I feel is a blood blister on my finger. Now, I have had shoulder surgrey. I however, injured it playing basketball. This caused the dislocation. I threw through the pain and ended up doing much more to it. (Doctors say I over compinsated and injured myself more severly) Now for my question. I trained extremly hard and worked out a lot. To build up strength in my shoulder. I have nver had any elbow pain. Since my surgrey never any shoulder pain. In college I was a reliever. I made 37 appearances in 56 games. Never threw more than an inning. Never any pain. Now I do not workout. I am about 15 lbs overweight and can regularly throw 115 pitches with nothing more than a blood blister. Is this because of the extensive rehab?
Is there a correlation with amount of workout time and lack of injury? ( in Marshall theory)
If you gave me the workout routine you did with your students and I did nothing more than that. (nothing mechanical) would that prevent them from injury? Has there been research done on this???
Lastly, I have to disagree with what was said about a two year old. I have a two year old. i just got done playing catch with him. please asuume I do not teach my two year old how to play catch yet. He does spins and all sorts of fun stuff while throwing. He usually ends up with his face planted in the ground. He throws with his fingers in the side of the ball and comes straight at me.
My last point/question: Not every kid is taught or changed. More than you will ever realize just go on playing baseball and do not change anything from the time they are two. So why do they not continue to throw with Marshall tendancies?
First I agree with 3 fingered. I do not understand the terms well enough to fully grasp what is going on it text. So, I will continue to ask you questions to figure out if I want to put in a signifacant amount of time to do research. (I believe research can be spun anyway to make anyone believe what you are saying)
Questions 1:
How do your guys look when they play catch?
Question 2:
According to most everything I have read, Marshall prevents injuries by replacing the arm swing motion and the way the hips open correct? I am aware there is way more but to keep it short)
Question 3:
So if I throw everyday just playing a max effort catch traditionally will I be injured?
Question 4:
If I would not be injured or shows signs of being injured. Then what is the variable that causes me to be injured on the mound?
Question 5:
Softball pitchers and Marshall have any correlation?
I throw BP at max effort towards the end of the year for about a week straight. I am in full traditional wind up and off the mound. I am a lefty. We see a lot of lefties in sectionals. So it helps for them to face me. The only injury or pain I feel is a blood blister on my finger. Now, I have had shoulder surgrey. I however, injured it playing basketball. This caused the dislocation. I threw through the pain and ended up doing much more to it. (Doctors say I over compinsated and injured myself more severly) Now for my question. I trained extremly hard and worked out a lot. To build up strength in my shoulder. I have nver had any elbow pain. Since my surgrey never any shoulder pain. In college I was a reliever. I made 37 appearances in 56 games. Never threw more than an inning. Never any pain. Now I do not workout. I am about 15 lbs overweight and can regularly throw 115 pitches with nothing more than a blood blister. Is this because of the extensive rehab?
Is there a correlation with amount of workout time and lack of injury? ( in Marshall theory)
If you gave me the workout routine you did with your students and I did nothing more than that. (nothing mechanical) would that prevent them from injury? Has there been research done on this???
Lastly, I have to disagree with what was said about a two year old. I have a two year old. i just got done playing catch with him. please asuume I do not teach my two year old how to play catch yet. He does spins and all sorts of fun stuff while throwing. He usually ends up with his face planted in the ground. He throws with his fingers in the side of the ball and comes straight at me.
My last point/question: Not every kid is taught or changed. More than you will ever realize just go on playing baseball and do not change anything from the time they are two. So why do they not continue to throw with Marshall tendancies?
Three fingered and I are on the same page. We just want to compare. i wantt o compare what you say is Marshall and what I say is traditional? What makes sense. If you d not want to post on here you can pm me or email me.
After reading your garbage I went on the site for the first time in a year for entertainment value. After five minutes I decided I didn't need to read cr@P.quote:I’ll bet you have not missed one Sunday of Marshall personal e-mails at his web site.
"Again, I know you don’t care!"
You took this completely out of context, in which Marshall's KoolAid drinkers excel. Here's the entire statement: "Who cares about a non pro's adult arm in their 40's."
"Everyone prefers to win. Do you have what it takes to do what is right?"
I did. My son does. The Marshall way is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. I'm amazed how after forty years of failed research the KoolAid drinkers can be so condescending, arrogant and wrong and believe they are so right.
How many successful Marshall proteges are pitching in pro ball and high level college ball after forty years of failed research? Answer: Zero. Marshall is forty years of failed research.
There's a new interest in baseball in tribal Africa. Mike Marshall took a trip to indoctrinate all the pitchers new to baseball.
Marshall: I have found the way!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: All those Hall of Famers and All-Star pitchers throw incorrectly!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: You must train for 280 days!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: You must learn the maxline fastball!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
After walking away with the tribal leader, Marshall commented the tribe really seemed to be into his talk on pitching.
The tribal leader commented: "I'm not sure. Look out! You're about to step in some humma dumma."
Marshall: I have found the way!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: All those Hall of Famers and All-Star pitchers throw incorrectly!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: You must train for 280 days!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
Marshall: You must learn the maxline fastball!
Tribe: Humma dumma, humma dumma
After walking away with the tribal leader, Marshall commented the tribe really seemed to be into his talk on pitching.
The tribal leader commented: "I'm not sure. Look out! You're about to step in some humma dumma."
Okay....................is everyone tired of this useless banter?
This sounds like someone else I know....suck you in by telling you how much you don't know....then rub your nose in it for a while....still never showing you much of anything. It's as if people are afraid they're missing some dark secret to pitching eternity. You may want to check out the cricket bowlers ....'cept they get to run-and-throw 100mph.
Does this look familiar?
This sounds like someone else I know....suck you in by telling you how much you don't know....then rub your nose in it for a while....still never showing you much of anything. It's as if people are afraid they're missing some dark secret to pitching eternity. You may want to check out the cricket bowlers ....'cept they get to run-and-throw 100mph.
Does this look familiar?
southpaw_dad,
This is what is being tried here, I guess I’m failing miserably and can’t figure out quite how to deal with this form of thread sabotage. Any suggestions? I actually taught and still do teach traditional mechanics to the ones that want it. I’m here only to set the record straight for what Marshall mechanics actually are and produce. Some wish to tear down, use dis-information and comment with negative personal attacks at every Marshall thread because they have personally e-mailed Marshall with their sophomoric style thoughts and he has returned not in kind but with scientifically pernicious information which is then turned into revenge thread sabotage feedback by trying to vex the information giver into making the same mistake verbally. The problem with this is the moderators always delete the whole thread instead of the offending detractor or said statement. This has happened at every web site discussing these issues.
I totally agree with you and look forward to your curiosity and mature responses!
3fingeredglove,
This is where the “line item veto” would work well to keep the personal and childish behavior at bay.
I would gladly do this but there is too much history here that keeps this from happening,
I posted the my 12 year clients video only after asking permission from his parents.
When this HS senior bellies up to the table with the team that drafts him we do not want any preconceived notions entering into the negotiations as you see here with many. After he Inks? I will ask them again and see if it is OK, but if he goes with his intended College, I believe armatures are off limits unless they themselves seek this attention.
This can be done without names or any one indevidual.
You must know the history to understand, just look at how many actual pitching coaches have joined the discussion let alone some of the other great posters here? Have you noticed only the detractors until you arrived? The anti-Marshall guys as described by them selves do not want this information disseminated and will and also have caused trouble before when I’ve named kids and been stung before so I’m not going down that road again.
Yes, but he is trying to improve his position not subtract from it. I have many personal friends I grew up with who are pro scouts and to a man they say you better keep this under wraps for now.
Marshall says all the time that fathers only need to learn what is to be done, they actually learn this stuff faster than the traditionally engrained high level coaches because of pre existing beliefs that they can not or will not get over or agree with even if it is shown right in front of them. Count me in here also!
This will be your own personal decision but even just running into these words has peaked your curiosity and I’ll bet if I asked you to tell me what you think these mean you would probably get it right. I just look things up when I do not fully understand.
The term “driveline” is the line between home plate and second base running straight through the middle of the pitchers plate. He uses this term a lot because many of his tenets are to align the body parts like the shoulders, hips and elbow at pendulum swing with this line.
The term “Kinetic linkage” is a classic Kinesiological term meaning power runs from joint to joint one after the other or even “force doubled” where two joints go together after the preceding joint and then to the next joint. I will try to explain in detail for now on what each means, hopefully not vexing anybody in doing so.
The overwhelming majority of baseball involved higher-level coaches have no scientific back ground what so ever because of the way the system works. This is changing more and more and College educated people with scientific back grounds are getting jobs with positions of power but it will take a long time before this change will have any legs.
This is exactly what happens with all new scientific endeavor, first scorn, ridicule and dis-belief then acceptance and use. I can name you a thousand like scenarios, one since everybody here likes to use religious references would be when Galileo told the church that the world was round and that we were not at the center of the universe, well we know what happened there, Pope Urban the 7 th had him put away. In the sports world all coaches believed that the scissors kick was the way to High jump until Dick Fosbury showed them a better way. I don’t know how old you are but this was a huge controversy then and nobody would even talk to him until he won gold, the difference was his sport did not rely on opinion for advancement it was premier stats.
Marshall being the one of the leading experts in the field of Kinesiology has coined many new terms but they are not that hard to understand when he also gives a complete explanation so that fathers who know nothing about baseball can build his sons mechanics at a comfortable pace. This has and is being done. I have 12 year olds that know a lot about the physiological and movement sciences pretty well. Many read his site plus my non-stop blathering.
Although his information does contain large volume, the main tenets that will protect pitchers from the major injuries are very easy to understand and perform with even the youngest.
I totally agree with you, his full version is aesthetically repugnant, the same problem Fosbury had. Now the scissors kick is repugnant. I have to admit I do find myself seeing real bad over rotated pitching mechanics as repugnant now.
“Pastime Trnments,”
Injuries to the elbow and shoulder are caused by centrifuging you arm (forearm flyout) that is caused by being late with you ball arrival at initial foreword force application and “early over rotation” taking the ball from hand break around your hip out of alignment and has little to do with the hips unless you turn them to far around in you leg lift by taking your knee back towards second base.
If you take your humerus, elbow and forearm beyond straightness back you will then have to counter it with forearm flyout during your drive that will injure your elbowor shoulder even if it is not debilitating at that time. Playing maximal catch walking foreword has less of a chance of making the critical mechanical error.
The leg lift is the culprit if you do not control your early rotation with it; it allows you to be out of alignment and late with the balls arrival at driveline height. Why do outfielders not catch a fly ball where they need to throw maximally with their most velocity by standing with a leg lift and catch the ball sideways?
Yes, softball pitchers throw center mass from down below that allows them to throw every inning of every game because they do not injure them selves. If Marshall’s mechanics catch on there would be no reason for inning limitation for HS pitchers other than giving someone else a shot at it or tournament successive games.
Medical Dr’s are Kinesiologically under educated or none at all, they prove this every day. By separating your throwing shoulder you really loosened up the ligaments surrounding your shoulder capsule, this injury (the reason I do not recommend football to pitchers) is usually a career ender for pitchers depending on how long you went with your humeral head dislodged from it’s Fossa.
Muscle mass is a prescription for lessening injury outcomes and you were lucky to come back from separation, usually psychological impediments are harder to overcome with shoulder injuries. Prehabilitation is exactly what Marshall has been doing for 40 years
I’m glad to see it’s catching on finally.
You know these are not Marshall’s theories, these are exercise physiological, Motor skill acquisition and Kinesiological tenets that all advanced students in these fields learn, some of them have forgotten or missed these classes that tell you exactly the way it is done best for athletes, you better believe the track and field coaches know this stuff?
Yes, we train for mass with wrist weights ( 5 lb’s youth and up to 30 lb’s adult) and heavy balls (2 lbs youth, 6 lb teens and up to 15 lb’s adult) and use baseballs for underload fast twitch recruitment for speed. Many people think that long toss builds strength but exercise physiologist know you can not build muscle mass with a 5.5 oz. object but you can stimulate Type II muscle fiber.
If you did the work out with out the mechanics (not talking bottom half here) you would catastrophically injure yourself during training. If you did the work out with the mechanics you would not injure yourself and went back to traditional mechanics to pitch you would perform closer to Crow-step mechanics then you were before but would be suseptable to centrifuging and injury.
Marshall trains pitchers the way he was taught to put together a specific interval-training program at one of the leading physical education departments in the world, Michigan State University where many of the exercise physiology tenets took form. He also taught there as a Kinesiology professor. All of his interval training techniques have been proven out as exercise physiological tenets like “sport specific ness” His training regimen is very vigorous and has motor skill drills added in. “Specificity of Training” the only training that helps baseball pitchers garner proper neural recruitment (Bio electrical switching) timing is overloading the pitching muscles in exactly the same movements that they use to throw baseballs. Unfortunately traditional angles will not allow you to do this.
It’s a general concept that has no mechanical call out only in that they must keep their center of gravity centered or they will end up on the ground because of their head size and it looks like they throw like a girl when they throw to keep their balance.
What happens is with X baseball playing fathers is they have them drop down their
elbows to the magic 90 positions and that is where the neural signals are built and usually stay. Non past playing fathers normally leave them alone until somebody else gets to them usually around 7 years old and then their head size is more normal in relationship to their bodies so they then can go down with the elbow more with out falling down.
Naturally we have the capacity to throw from a hyper under the bottom (sub-marine,) all the way back up to hyper over the top [Marshall) and every vector in between. This being so gives a child plenty of opportunity to drop down and feel all these force positions. Think about how many times you skipped a stone on water when you were a kid plus all the other throwing activities leads to a dropped elbow regular throw.
Cap_n,
Marshall’s delivery is close to this accept cricket bowlers are not allowed to bend their ball arm. Running up gives them little, maybe 2 more miles an hr? Watch how when their glove arm leg hits the ground and they start to actually drive the ball foreword their body momentum has almost stopped just like baseball throwers. Cricket balls weigh exactly like baseballs around 5.7 oz. There have been many cricketeers whom have thrown over a hundy and this is why we believe velocities basically remain the same between Marshall’s and traditional, I have witnessed it, we also believe the potential is higher velocity because we can train with 10 times as much resistive stress for a lot longer because no harm is being done plus get a straighter drive line. Newton likes the last one.
quote:” Is in not possible for us to agree to disagree on The Way, and to instead turn our focus to a shared, higher ideal ... our common love of Baseball?””
This is what is being tried here, I guess I’m failing miserably and can’t figure out quite how to deal with this form of thread sabotage. Any suggestions? I actually taught and still do teach traditional mechanics to the ones that want it. I’m here only to set the record straight for what Marshall mechanics actually are and produce. Some wish to tear down, use dis-information and comment with negative personal attacks at every Marshall thread because they have personally e-mailed Marshall with their sophomoric style thoughts and he has returned not in kind but with scientifically pernicious information which is then turned into revenge thread sabotage feedback by trying to vex the information giver into making the same mistake verbally. The problem with this is the moderators always delete the whole thread instead of the offending detractor or said statement. This has happened at every web site discussing these issues.
I totally agree with you and look forward to your curiosity and mature responses!
3fingeredglove,
quote:“I think this is an excellent thread, simply because it tends to keep the for/against arguments confined here in this thread. In the past, the arguments have derailed many otherwise valuable threads. It still happens, but much less now.”
This is where the “line item veto” would work well to keep the personal and childish behavior at bay.
quote:“It would be great if you would name the pitcher”
I would gladly do this but there is too much history here that keeps this from happening,
I posted the my 12 year clients video only after asking permission from his parents.
When this HS senior bellies up to the table with the team that drafts him we do not want any preconceived notions entering into the negotiations as you see here with many. After he Inks? I will ask them again and see if it is OK, but if he goes with his intended College, I believe armatures are off limits unless they themselves seek this attention.
quote:“and list out the aspects of his mechanics which are in accordance with Marshall tenets”
This can be done without names or any one indevidual.
quote:“I can see no reason not to identify the pitcher”
You must know the history to understand, just look at how many actual pitching coaches have joined the discussion let alone some of the other great posters here? Have you noticed only the detractors until you arrived? The anti-Marshall guys as described by them selves do not want this information disseminated and will and also have caused trouble before when I’ve named kids and been stung before so I’m not going down that road again.
quote:“he certainly is a public figure in the world of baseball he is in the top dozen or so pitchers of his age, and many people have seen him, and comment on him. There can't be the slightest question of his skill or success to date.”
Yes, but he is trying to improve his position not subtract from it. I have many personal friends I grew up with who are pro scouts and to a man they say you better keep this under wraps for now.
quote:”It would be useful to me personally. I have only moderate knowledge of pitching mechanics”
Marshall says all the time that fathers only need to learn what is to be done, they actually learn this stuff faster than the traditionally engrained high level coaches because of pre existing beliefs that they can not or will not get over or agree with even if it is shown right in front of them. Count me in here also!
.quote:“and I am not willing to try to learn what Marshall means by terms like "driveline" and "total kinetic linkage" or "kinetic time line" and "nexus" “
This will be your own personal decision but even just running into these words has peaked your curiosity and I’ll bet if I asked you to tell me what you think these mean you would probably get it right. I just look things up when I do not fully understand.
The term “driveline” is the line between home plate and second base running straight through the middle of the pitchers plate. He uses this term a lot because many of his tenets are to align the body parts like the shoulders, hips and elbow at pendulum swing with this line.
The term “Kinetic linkage” is a classic Kinesiological term meaning power runs from joint to joint one after the other or even “force doubled” where two joints go together after the preceding joint and then to the next joint. I will try to explain in detail for now on what each means, hopefully not vexing anybody in doing so.
quote:“The overwhelming majority of baseball people reject Marshall, so the odds of him being right aren't very high.”
The overwhelming majority of baseball involved higher-level coaches have no scientific back ground what so ever because of the way the system works. This is changing more and more and College educated people with scientific back grounds are getting jobs with positions of power but it will take a long time before this change will have any legs.
This is exactly what happens with all new scientific endeavor, first scorn, ridicule and dis-belief then acceptance and use. I can name you a thousand like scenarios, one since everybody here likes to use religious references would be when Galileo told the church that the world was round and that we were not at the center of the universe, well we know what happened there, Pope Urban the 7 th had him put away. In the sports world all coaches believed that the scissors kick was the way to High jump until Dick Fosbury showed them a better way. I don’t know how old you are but this was a huge controversy then and nobody would even talk to him until he won gold, the difference was his sport did not rely on opinion for advancement it was premier stats.
quote:“There is a defined lexicon available from physics and aerodynamics, but Marshall makes up new terms.”
Marshall being the one of the leading experts in the field of Kinesiology has coined many new terms but they are not that hard to understand when he also gives a complete explanation so that fathers who know nothing about baseball can build his sons mechanics at a comfortable pace. This has and is being done. I have 12 year olds that know a lot about the physiological and movement sciences pretty well. Many read his site plus my non-stop blathering.
His nomenclature is scientific that will only be continually miss-understood by the intellect seeking lazy. When I say, “arm vector,” I am describing what actually happens rather than say “arm slot” that is not what is happening. Any effort at all produces meanings that make perfect sense. He uses the term “glove side” arm, leg, hip, ear, etc. and “ball side” foot, shoulder, elbow etc. to describe action so that it means the same to both rightists and lefties.quote:“his nomenclature is non-standard.”
quote:“In any case, in order to read and try to understand his thoughts on pitching mechanics, I would need to invest perhaps a hundred hours.”
Although his information does contain large volume, the main tenets that will protect pitchers from the major injuries are very easy to understand and perform with even the youngest.
Not sure what you mean here? His trajectories will always be towards the catcher’s glove. If you mean he has explained this more tough to understand than the rest then, It is an evolving explanation, he does listen to his readers and when he has miss stated or contradicted himself or has to give a more accustomed explanation does and always changes his mistake and thanks the reader and asks that others do the same.quote:“What if those thoughts are of the same quality as his writings on trajectories?”
When looking at training film of a youth pitcher where you are seeing only one date of the progression will tell you little. There are 3 sets of video timeline about 8 months apart, the last video’ taped in January shows a dramatic change in these mechanics to the better. Has any of these would be analyzers taken this into consideration and do they understand what they are seeing when a tenet is close.quote:“this thread has videos of young kids whose mechanics are so unusual that nobody wants to analyze their mechanics.”
I totally agree with you, his full version is aesthetically repugnant, the same problem Fosbury had. Now the scissors kick is repugnant. I have to admit I do find myself seeing real bad over rotated pitching mechanics as repugnant now.
“Pastime Trnments,”
Marshall’s tenets are built of off the way a 3rd baseman’s or outfielders throws when they trot Crow-step with a karaoke ball side leg to the front. Marshall is actually trying to bring these throws on to the mound. They stay taller, rotate faster, longer and get the same arm vector that is humerus up during drive and forearm inside of vertical (Humerus up fore arm bent to the head side), this is why Marshall is alright with long toss with out high parabolic arc because it allows the thrower to get his ball up to driveline height (top of head high) before his glove side foot touches down that happens when all players play catch. The one thing that leads to the gateway problem of “over early rotation” is the useless leg lift that takes you to far beyond exactly straight towards home plate with your feet, hips, shoulders and arms.quote:”Questions 1:
How do your guys look when they play catch?”
quote:“Question 2:
According to most everything I have read, Marshall prevents injuries by replacing the arm swing motion and the way the hips open correct?”
Injuries to the elbow and shoulder are caused by centrifuging you arm (forearm flyout) that is caused by being late with you ball arrival at initial foreword force application and “early over rotation” taking the ball from hand break around your hip out of alignment and has little to do with the hips unless you turn them to far around in you leg lift by taking your knee back towards second base.
quote:“Question 3:
”So if I throw everyday just playing a max effort catch traditionally will I be injured?”
If you take your humerus, elbow and forearm beyond straightness back you will then have to counter it with forearm flyout during your drive that will injure your elbowor shoulder even if it is not debilitating at that time. Playing maximal catch walking foreword has less of a chance of making the critical mechanical error.
quote:Question 4:
”If I would not be injured or shows signs of being injured. Then what is the variable that causes me to be injured on the mound?”
The leg lift is the culprit if you do not control your early rotation with it; it allows you to be out of alignment and late with the balls arrival at driveline height. Why do outfielders not catch a fly ball where they need to throw maximally with their most velocity by standing with a leg lift and catch the ball sideways?
quote:Question 5:
Softball pitchers and Marshall have any correlation?
Yes, softball pitchers throw center mass from down below that allows them to throw every inning of every game because they do not injure them selves. If Marshall’s mechanics catch on there would be no reason for inning limitation for HS pitchers other than giving someone else a shot at it or tournament successive games.
quote:“This caused the dislocation. I threw through the pain and ended up doing much more to it. (Doctors say I over compinsated and injured myself more severly) “
Medical Dr’s are Kinesiologically under educated or none at all, they prove this every day. By separating your throwing shoulder you really loosened up the ligaments surrounding your shoulder capsule, this injury (the reason I do not recommend football to pitchers) is usually a career ender for pitchers depending on how long you went with your humeral head dislodged from it’s Fossa.
quote:“Is this because of the extensive rehab?”
Muscle mass is a prescription for lessening injury outcomes and you were lucky to come back from separation, usually psychological impediments are harder to overcome with shoulder injuries. Prehabilitation is exactly what Marshall has been doing for 40 years
I’m glad to see it’s catching on finally.
quote:”Is there a correlation with amount of workout time and lack of injury? ( in Marshall theory)”
You know these are not Marshall’s theories, these are exercise physiological, Motor skill acquisition and Kinesiological tenets that all advanced students in these fields learn, some of them have forgotten or missed these classes that tell you exactly the way it is done best for athletes, you better believe the track and field coaches know this stuff?
Yes, we train for mass with wrist weights ( 5 lb’s youth and up to 30 lb’s adult) and heavy balls (2 lbs youth, 6 lb teens and up to 15 lb’s adult) and use baseballs for underload fast twitch recruitment for speed. Many people think that long toss builds strength but exercise physiologist know you can not build muscle mass with a 5.5 oz. object but you can stimulate Type II muscle fiber.
quote:”If you gave me the workout routine you did with your students and I did nothing more than that. (nothing mechanical) would that prevent them from injury? Has there been research done on this???
If you did the work out with out the mechanics (not talking bottom half here) you would catastrophically injure yourself during training. If you did the work out with the mechanics you would not injure yourself and went back to traditional mechanics to pitch you would perform closer to Crow-step mechanics then you were before but would be suseptable to centrifuging and injury.
Marshall trains pitchers the way he was taught to put together a specific interval-training program at one of the leading physical education departments in the world, Michigan State University where many of the exercise physiology tenets took form. He also taught there as a Kinesiology professor. All of his interval training techniques have been proven out as exercise physiological tenets like “sport specific ness” His training regimen is very vigorous and has motor skill drills added in. “Specificity of Training” the only training that helps baseball pitchers garner proper neural recruitment (Bio electrical switching) timing is overloading the pitching muscles in exactly the same movements that they use to throw baseballs. Unfortunately traditional angles will not allow you to do this.
quote:”Lastly, I have to disagree with what was said about a two year old.”
It’s a general concept that has no mechanical call out only in that they must keep their center of gravity centered or they will end up on the ground because of their head size and it looks like they throw like a girl when they throw to keep their balance.
quote:“Not every kid is taught or changed. More than you will ever realize just go on playing baseball and do not change anything from the time they are two. So why do they not continue to throw with Marshall tendancies?”
What happens is with X baseball playing fathers is they have them drop down their
elbows to the magic 90 positions and that is where the neural signals are built and usually stay. Non past playing fathers normally leave them alone until somebody else gets to them usually around 7 years old and then their head size is more normal in relationship to their bodies so they then can go down with the elbow more with out falling down.
Naturally we have the capacity to throw from a hyper under the bottom (sub-marine,) all the way back up to hyper over the top [Marshall) and every vector in between. This being so gives a child plenty of opportunity to drop down and feel all these force positions. Think about how many times you skipped a stone on water when you were a kid plus all the other throwing activities leads to a dropped elbow regular throw.
Cap_n,
quote:“cept they get to run-and-throw 100mph.”
Marshall’s delivery is close to this accept cricket bowlers are not allowed to bend their ball arm. Running up gives them little, maybe 2 more miles an hr? Watch how when their glove arm leg hits the ground and they start to actually drive the ball foreword their body momentum has almost stopped just like baseball throwers. Cricket balls weigh exactly like baseballs around 5.7 oz. There have been many cricketeers whom have thrown over a hundy and this is why we believe velocities basically remain the same between Marshall’s and traditional, I have witnessed it, we also believe the potential is higher velocity because we can train with 10 times as much resistive stress for a lot longer because no harm is being done plus get a straighter drive line. Newton likes the last one.
Paranoiaquote:The anti-Marshall guys as described by them selves do not want this information disseminated
"The overwhelming majority of baseball involved higher-level coaches have no scientific back ground what so ever because of the way the system works."
They don't see results.
"I totally agree with you, his full version is aesthetically repugnant, the same problem Fosbury had. Now the scissors kick is repugnant."
Marshallites continue to hang on one of the few examples of unorthodoxy that prevailed. It didn't take the Fosbury Flop forty years to catch on. Why? He demonstrated success.
"Yes, softball pitchers throw center mass from down below that allows them to throw every inning of every game because they do not injure them selves."
Not true. They injure other parts of their body (knees, hips) from pitching too much.
Marshall may understand all the science. He may have perfected a way for pitchers to minimize injury. The problem is the techinique has not proved to be effective from a baseball success standpoint at the high end of the game. Therefore it's useless science.
