Marshall mechanics

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yardbird:
wvmtner,

I did not know about the tall ones injury..

I'm surprised most people heard something but they all were saying he blew his shoulder out. Do you keep in touch with Jim at West Coast? Just got off the phone with hime 1/2 hour ago. Kev will be down in Pasaden throwing with them in Jan.

I was upset..pitch/catch

He didn't didn't really chose pitching. He used it as another option. He just wanted to play. I think if one or two different teams would have picked him, he might have got that chance to catch.

About the young one?

Signed at Northridge, thought he would be drafted, Went to JC, switched from SS to Catcher (7.0 60 a little slow)
Some interest in him catching, pitched 5 innings this fall, sparked some interest as a pitcher. we'll see. If not drafted, will go to University of North Dakota next fall. (He wants out of CA)

It's ironic

Honestly, I didn't know there was a controversy over the bottom half (that's where I was talking about not having ammunition for a debate) I just read about his teachings and saw a video of one of his students. The top half is what I really noticed because of the pronation of every pitch.

Kevs injuries are in his right groin that I thought came from overstriding and not pivoting his back foot and leaving it on the rubber too long.

"As you may or may not know Marshall believes you should keep you’re legs forward and drive the way infielders and outfielders throw, a crow step motion?"

I'm not sure what you mean about "keep you're legs forward" but I've always taught all my pitchers to throw in a crow step motion. As a matter of fact, I have them do it from behind the rubber before they start their bullpen.

"I believe his full motion would help the tall one but unfortunately it would also be getting him sent home!"

I'm confused on "full motion"

Even if a pitcher has arm problems, it does not always mean that their mechanics are bad.

"Yes, I’ve heard this theory before and in many cases this can be true.
Which injuries are you speaking of?"

Muscle and Tendon strains . I think that ligament injuries are usually caused by poor mechanics. This is from my observations of pitchers (and myself) over the years. No medical data to back it up, no medical degree either.

You know that pitching puts a tremendous strain on the arm regardless of Traditional/Marshall mechanics.

"Absolutely, Both are ballistic activities. This is why Marshall is not in favor of children under the Biological age of 13 not pitch much in competition because even with his none injurious top half mechanics it perturbs the growth plates in the arm bones just as with the traditional pitching mechanic."

That's why tall one didn't pitch until his Sr. year and young one just pitched this fall.

"just tell him to get his elbow and ball up to driveline height before his glove side foot lands. (This eliminates UCL over stress during initial forward force)"

I stress this point to all pitchers, especially on curveball.

"Get his stride foot to land to the glove arm side of center mass and keep it short to stay taller, this will relieve some of the stress in his hips and help him throw more down hill."

How far left of center line. Is this what's called "flying open" by most pitching coaches?

"He should pronate most of his pitches or all of them and get his elbow up during his ball drive like Lincecum."

Funny you said this. I never could figue out how you pronate on a curveball but noticed that he does it when I watched slow motion video. Maybe that's why not shoulder problems.

"Congenital abnormalities are usually exposed by maximal effort sporting activities, Bo Jackson an extreme but good example of this."

I always thought catching would reveal it before pitching.

"I only look at it as information and then test it."

That's all I do. I should have written my post differently. I don't disagree with Dr. Marshall because of my vast knowledge and research. It's mainly because I have not tried it myself and have not seen any of his students getting signed. I just can't believe that baseball would conspire to keep him out if he was right. I may be wrong.

I am open minded to try anything for myself. I can still throw BP all day (unless it's 100 degrees) I have no arm problems at all. I would be willing to try his methods on myself and form a more educated opinion from there.

“I know that you have a lot more ammunition than I do."

"Again I don’t look at it in this way, this isn’t football why the war terms."

By ammunition I don't mean it aggressively, I simply meant that you have done more research and testing. If you argue a ceartin point, I would probably have no rebuttle for your argument.

If you ever get to West Coast, maybe you can see him throw and see what you think.

It's great to hear from you. Maybe I'll see you sometime?

Whew!! That's the most I've typed since I retired.

wvmtner,

” I'm surprised”

Don’t be I’ve been out of the field loop for 4 years now.

“Do you keep in touch with Jim at West Coast?”

Yes and if you are with them, Kev is in great hands!

“Kev will be down in Pasaden throwing with them in Jan.”

I heard Lenny has moved on, who is Kevin working with?

”Honestly, I didn't know there was a controversy over the bottom half “

Well, lets just say it seems like it’s the last straw with regards to adding in the last component tenet for traditional way believers (which is 99.9999% of all at every level
accept older still playing adults).

“The top half is what I really noticed because of the pronation of every pitch”

Have you witnessed personally yet someone throwing Marshall center mass pitches?

”Kevs injuries are in his right groin that I thought came from over striding and not pivoting his back foot and leaving it on the rubber too long.”

This is the case; with the traditional motion the hips get early powerful rotation and turn
90 to 100 degrees and decelerate leaving the ball arm leg back with all of them to varying degrees, at the same time the glove arm foot plants and is locked in, the leg takes all of these deceleration forces no matter how bent or posted it is and transfers this it right up through their hip (this is where the first stress reaction is in the hip). Then the ball arm leg has to whip up to counterbalance the chest drop from back bend then rotate around the same hip while the foot is still locked in, the rotational forces go up the leg and right into the same hip (this is where the second stress reaction in the hip is now dealing with torque).

Marshall teaches to stay tall all the way through to defensive position, step short and get late rotation that leaves the glove arm leg down and rotating to the front so that you’re hips and feet rotate 180 degrees, It’s the way everybody throws when they are walking, trotting or running through a throw.

”I'm not sure what you mean about "keep you're legs forward" but I've always taught all my pitchers to throw in a crow step motion.”

This is good! Did you ever think of bringing that to the mound? Marshall teaches you to throw from the same posture that you walk or run from, that would be legs driving you forward, I have my more towards traditional (leg lift) pitchers turn their ball arm foot 45% to the plate the way Koufax did that keeps them from “over early rotation” the main cause of centripetal arm vector (traditional).

“I'm confused on "full motion"

Marshall’s full motion is with the bottom half mechanics added in which is, the pitcher does not lift his leg he just steps back or starts back and drives straight forward.

”Muscle and Tendon strains”

Ability to with stand the stress deals with all three. Muscle can be torn by another muscle
Like in hamstring pulls where two opposing muscles fire off at the same time

"I think that ligament injuries are usually caused by poor mechanics."

I’ve come to believe they are all caused by poor mechanics and poor Sport Specific training for strength and have nothing to do with pitch count.

“That's why tall one didn't pitch until his Sr. year and young one just pitched this fall.”

Isn’t it curious that athletes did not have to have pitches in their youth to attain the highest levels of performance as opposed to what we have all been taught?

"How far left of centerline. Is this what's called "flying open" by most pitching coaches?"

There is as many explanation call outs for perceived flying open as in many other old baseball terms like “heavy ball and Dead arm”
The popular reason explaining "flying open" deals with the shoulders but there are many more.

The distance varies with Marshall because of pitch type sides of the pitchers plate.
Basically you want the Glove arm leg to land on the glove arm side of center mass, it can be 3 inches from center with his pronated cutter, slider and curve (torque pitches) to a 12” with his tailing fastball, Sinker and screwball (maxline pitches)

”Funny you said this. I never could figue out how you pronate on a curveball.”

It takes extreme Radial flexion of he wrist, like trying to pitch it over your glove side Ear that can’t happen.


“but noticed that he does it when I watched slow motion video.”

If he is extremely on top of his curve like Berry Zito or Juan Marishal that might be the case but normally you are seeing “involuntary pronation” after violent supination caused from your forearm going as far as it can in supination then snapping back to pronation just after release!

Marshall is attaining forearm pronation during the driveline and during release!

“Maybe that's why not shoulder problems.”

Shoulder problems are all caused by “over early rotation” of you’re driveline that produces a curvilinear driveline the centripetal arm vector and the finish pulling down and across you chest.

”It's mainly because I have not tried it myself“

Testing things thoroughly is the only way to know.

“have not seen any of his students getting signed.”

He works with adult players whom have already severely injured themselves, if he were to work with Genetically superior healthy athletes they would get signed plus he’s training them in the full motion and has had rehabs that perform at a high level but have not been handed the ball!!!

On the other hand I who have been working with these tenets with an acquiescing leg lift of many sorts for some years now have had 7 drafted and one this year is projected in the first 3 rounds, all are expert in the full motion also.

“I just can't believe that baseball would conspire to keep him out if he was right. I may be wrong.”

Oh, I could tell you his history dating back to his playing days that would have you thinking about it.

”I am open minded to try anything for myself. I can still throw BP all day (unless it's 100 degrees) I have no arm problems at all. I would be willing to try his methods on myself and form a more educated opinion from there.”

Well you saw how I pitched to the boys, I still throw 600 to 1200 maximal pitches every day, if I had not started Marshall’s material on myself I would have to use a machine 4 days a week

"If you ever get to West Coast, maybe you can see him throw and see what you think."

That would be great and I owe them a visit, let James know when and I will be there.

“since I retired.”

Retired? That will come in handy when you have to travel to the Dakotas to see the young one play and then there is the tall one to see?

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Shoulder problems are all caused by “over early rotation” of you’re driveline that produces a curvilinear driveline the centripetal arm vector and the finish pulling down and across you chest.

Sorry, but Marshall gets this wrong.

Shoulder problems are generally caused by timing problems whereby the pitching arm is late in getting up, which increases the load on the elbow and shoulder.

Marshall used to get this right, but not any more.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
“I just can't believe that baseball would conspire to keep him out if he was right. I may be wrong.”

Oh, I could tell you his history dating back to his playing days that would have you thinking about it.

Baseball doesn't keep Marshall out for bogus reasons. They keep him out...

1. Because Marshall and his followers are generally gigantic, arrogant, and sometimes unhinged jerks who make snide comments about the stupidity of major league guys on Marshall's web site.

2. Because Marshall gets some things wrong (e.g. by minimizing hip/shoulder separation).

John YaYa,

“Sorry, but Marshall gets this wrong.”

I’ve put it to the test, He is correct! If you “early over rotate or take your elbow past your acromial line (line between your shoulder tips), (scapular load) you will grind the head of your Humerus across the shoulder socket like a Mortar and pestle (posterior Labrum tears) when you loop your ball arm around at initial humeral rotation, this same centripetal forearm flyout causes a (anterior labrum tear) at deceleration because it forces you to direct your ball arm across your chest, this is particularly bad with biologically 19 year olds and below because it severely stresses the growth plate of the upper humerus (commonly called LL shoulder by Orthos).
Your inner shoulder musculature is at a mechanical disadvantage to properly start a maximal contraction. That over stresses the tendons and muscles attached to them and their bone to tendon attachments at the front of the shoulder (the 4 rotator cuff muscles). Injuries associated with the muscles of the outside of the shoulder (Deltoids) are caused by Humeral lag caused from not locking your Humerus in line with your Acromial line (shoulders) at initial forward force.

“Shoulder problems are generally caused by timing problems whereby the pitching arm is late in getting up”

Since timing is involved with every athletic movement this can be said of all mechanics injurious or not. Marshall would agree with you but would not say timing; he expresses the problem as postural, which attaches a mechanical fix.
Late forearm turn over “late getting up” causes forearm bounce later in the articulation that causes UCL degradation.

“Marshall used to get this right, but not any more.”

Marshall has been pretty consistent and clear on this for 15 years that I know of, maybe you can show us where your contrary information comes from?

“Because Marshall and his followers are generally gigantic.”

Marshall is 5’8”, what are you talking about?

“arrogant, and sometimes unhinged jerks”

What does your interperatation of their writing style have to do with the mechanics?

“who make snide comments about the stupidity of major league guys on Marshall's web site.”

What is snide about the truth of what is happening with the recurring injury problems?
Does the truth hurt you so much that you need to throw out the good information?
If he hurt their feelings for perpetuating the problem thru stricked adherence to tradition by non kinesiological experts then maybe he should have used a different term to label them especially the type A personalities, but I could care less about pro’s, they can do anything they want, they are adults. I only care about the physiological information that has always been right on the mark for truth and clarity. By way of actually testing this material!

”Because Marshall gets some things wrong (e.g. by minimizing hip/shoulder separation)”.

He does not get this wrong! He recognizes that traditional pitchers separate their acromial line from their hip line during glove side foot plant and early hip rotation. He also points out that the shoulders of traditional pitchers rotate around to hip line while the ball is still traveling backwards during forearm bounce that means even traditional pitchers even loose this separation after rotation during actual forward force application, they actually force the ball forward while lined up together and if you do not have access to high speed film you will never see this timeline. Marshall full mechanic pitchers actually rotate their hips and shoulders 90 more degrees and while they are forwardly projecting the ball. There is no loss of kinetic linkage with his mechanic just the loss of rotational inefficiency from getting off of center mass by traditional pitchers. All of the core muscles are contracting during Marshalls mechanic just like Javelin throwers. If you were to test these theories you would be able to better discuss it.

If you want to use these mechanics thats fine and dandy. Just dont expect to compete with them. Huge limits on velocity, holding runners, and fielding your position. Full Marshall mechanics are a gimmick.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
I’ve put it to the test, He is correct! If you “early over rotate or take your elbow past your acromial line (line between your shoulder tips), (scapular load) you will grind the head of your Humerus across the shoulder socket like a Mortar and pestle (posterior Labrum tears) when you loop your ball arm around at initial humeral rotation, this same centripetal forearm flyout causes a (anterior labrum tear) at deceleration because it forces you to direct your ball arm across your chest, this is particularly bad with biologically 19 year olds and below because it severely stresses the growth plate of the upper humerus (commonly called LL shoulder by Orthos).
Your inner shoulder musculature is at a mechanical disadvantage to properly start a maximal contraction. That over stresses the tendons and muscles attached to them and their bone to tendon attachments at the front of the shoulder (the 4 rotator cuff muscles). Injuries associated with the muscles of the outside of the shoulder (Deltoids) are caused by Humeral lag caused from not locking your Humerus in line with your Acromial line (shoulders) at initial forward force.

Then why do you see the elbow behind the acromial plane in this photo of Nolan Ryan?



And why do you see the elbow behind the acromial plane in this photo of Greg Maddux?



Obviously, this isn't as bad as Marshall says.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yardbird:
“Because Marshall and his followers are generally gigantic.”

Marshall is 5’8”, what are you talking about?

“arrogant, and sometimes unhinged jerks”

What does your interperatation of their writing style have to do with the mechanics?

I wasn't referring to Marshall's stature.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
What is snide about the truth of what is happening with the recurring injury problems?
Does the truth hurt you so much that you need to throw out the good information?
If he hurt their feelings for perpetuating the problem thru stricked adherence to tradition by non kinesiological experts then maybe he should have used a different term to label them especially the type A personalities, but I could care less about pro’s, they can do anything they want, they are adults. I only care about the physiological information that has always been right on the mark for truth and clarity. By way of actually testing this material!

It's classless to be nice to someone's face and then slam them on his web site. Especially when those people are honestly interested in his ideas.

It's also kind of stupid in terms of advancing his cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
”Because Marshall gets some things wrong (e.g. by minimizing hip/shoulder separation)”.

He does not get this wrong! He recognizes that traditional pitchers separate their acromial line from their hip line during glove side foot plant and early hip rotation.

Yes, and he says that pitchers should NOT do this due to oblique problems.

That's crazy.

Deemax,

We have been over this elsewhere, your hit and run style is way below you!
I believe you are a better teacher than this, I’ve seen it when its proded out of you.

quote:

“If you want to use these mechanics that’s fine and dandy.”

But you will not be given the ball when it’s your turn in regards to the full motion.
But hide the all-important top half mechanic with an acquiescing bottom half leg lift and nobody cares or recognizes the mechanical change.

quote:

“Just dont expect to compete with them.”

Unlike Dr.Marshall whom has the rough task of retraining proptioceptive awareness
(Muscle memory) reversion, I get to work with children and younger teens who aren’t so hard wired as adults and less as the age gets lower the mastery of the mechanics is much quicker and they do get to compete if the head coach is not an X baseball player! And all of them do well even the less gifted with velocity ones! When my clients turn 14 they all have to acquiesce in some manor to pass a HS tryout.

quote:

“Huge limits on velocity”

This remains to be seen; as of yet no full Marshall starting healthy Adult fast twitcher (genetically superior for speed) has been given the ball. I had an 11-year-old biologically advanced maturer throwing full Marshall at 70 MPH with 202 K’s and all 4 youth pitches (2 moving in, 2 moving out). At East Yorba Linda LL.

quote:

“holding runners,”

This is where you will never know unless you try it!
Holding runners on first from the crow step position is far superior and this is a fact!
You are facing your runner turned 90 degrees more to him at the start of pitch delivery
And are in a greater pick off position.
One of my college pitchers whom is an expert Full Marshalls mechanics but has to acquires (leg lift) to get the ball asked his college coach if he could demonstrate the holding on first technique during a fall scrimmage this year and it was complete chaos
For the runners, not only was he quicker at release to the plate the runners were reduced to a 3 step lead, the head coach timed his pitch to the catcher and found it .50 sec .faster.
This was done at SaddlebackCC.

quote:

“fielding your position.”

Ya, know me and your brother went over the drop step fielding position and its field athletic advantages at BF in depth and I know you read every word of it. I challenged you then to time the responses and how to do it to prove or disprove your baseless allegations Since then till now I’ll bet you have not done it, Just like when I challenge you to try just some of Marshall’s top half tenets that again I’ll bet you have not done. Making claims with out physical experience does not help people with truthful information and this hit and run style of writing is way below your experience and possible contributive ability. Or maybe you do it this way to elicit a response to get out the truthful information, in which case I truthfully thank you.

quote:

“ Full Marshall mechanics are a gimmick.”

Give one of them the ball and lets see? You live in an area where one of them is being given the ball by his college coach Maley this spring. He was in the low 80’s coming out of HS with a traditional motion then trained with Marshall for well over a year. If he maintains his speed you might say this is no gimmick then. I can guarantee he will be healthy!! Can you guarantee any traditional mechanic pitcher will be?

Remember you can add Marshall tenets ( most of my teen age pitchers attain 75% of them) and even though the full version will not be given a chance to succeed in our life times fully, the top half mechanics that are being implemented in a lot of places and levels are coming in strong even at the MLB level. The traditional pitching coaches don’t even realize its happening right before their eyes.
If you are not willing to look at these top half mechanics with an open mind then nothing that I can say to you will help you save youth arms!!


John YaYa,

quote:

“Then why do you see the elbow behind the acromial plane in this photo of Nolan Ryan?”

Because Ryan is a traditional mechanic delivery pitcher.
This particular mechanic helped put Mr.Ryan on the disabled list over 60 times in his major league career. He was still throwing 95 MPH when this mechanic helped end his career remember! How many starts do you think he missed during his career?
This particular mechanic ended over 100 MLB pitchers year last year, why do you not post some of their stills?

Mr.Maddux whom is capable and has thrown 94 MPH cruises at 86 to 88 and has several
Of the Marshall tenets, this particular mechanical flaw (scapular loading) is what brings him still to severe inflammation to where he has to take 4 days off to pitch again. I consider inflammation a gateway injury that my Marshall many tenet pitchers never get.

quote:

“Obviously, this isn't as bad as Marshall says.”

Have you ever seen or understand a child’s x-ray of the rapidly growing throwing elbow epicondile you would not make this statement?

Would it have to absolutely destroy everybody’s arm and shoulder to change your observation? Have you read the kinesiological explanation that Marshall gives for free? at his web site about this disadvantageous mechanical movement?
Do you teach active Scapular loading? How far along are you in understanding Marshall’s material, in part or all of it? I’m not sure if you have any experience with it at all physically or mentally?

quote:

“It's classless to be nice to someone's face and then slam them on his web site.”

You might want to take you’re problem up with him? I’ve only seen deserved slams in the past and they are all on record for everybody to see. I’m here only to talk about mechanics and results, not personalities!

quote:

“Especially when those people are honestly interested in his ideas.”

This side show stuff does not affect me,
All pioneers have arrows in their backs. Marshall just turns around with his Winchester.

What does any of that have to do with the mechanics? Get over it?
He dumped a cold bucket of water over my head 12 years ago and it turns out he was right!

quote:

“Yes, and he says that pitchers should NOT do this due to oblique problems.
That's crazy.”

He is keenly aware of full-length contractions, their effect on his mechanic and the traditional mechanic, remember he is a professor and has taught exercise phys. and kinesiology at the university level. He does NOT ask his pitchers to eliminate any full-length contractions. His mechanic actually involves this action all through the driveline unlike the traditional delivery where you end up loosing this separation after you plant you glove side foot and then turn over your arm so that it actually is going backward before it goes forward!

dirt

quote:

We have been over this elsewhere, your hit and run style is way below you!

I have commented at lengths on this subject. Hardly a "hit and run".

quote:

I had an 11-year-old biologically advanced maturer throwing full Marshall at 70 MPH with 202 K’s last year

Im sure East Yorba LL plays a 20 game schedule. If your pupil pitched every single game without anyone else getting an opportunity to pitch this would be possibe....now, with little league pitch count and inning restrictions per week, your story seems less probable.

quote:

One of my college pitchers whom is an expert Full Marshalls mechanics but has to acquires (leg lift) to get the ball asked his college coach if he could demonstrate the holding on first technique during a fall scrimmage this year and it was complete chaos
For the runners,

Dont try to convince me of this. I HAVE SEEN THIS KID THROW. He pitches with traditional mechanics.

quote:

I challenged you then to time the responses and how to do it to prove or disprove your baseless allegations Since then till now I’ll bet you have not done it, Just like when I challenge you to try just some of Marshall’s top half tenets that again I’ll bet you have not done.

Baseless huh? when the ball crosses the plate the pitcher is facing 1b, and his glove is facing 2b.... This position could get a kid hurt real bad. Case Closed.

Mike Marshall knows the positions are aweful as well.....
"When baseball pitchers throw pitches that baseball batters cannot hit from about four feet closer to home plate than 'traditional' baseball pitchers, who worries about fielding?" -Mike Marshall

Nice.

quote:

If he maintains his speed you might say this is no gimmick then. I can guarantee he will be healthy!! Can you guarantee any traditional mechanic pitcher will be?

If traditional pitchers threw as slow as Marshalls, they might not get hurt either.

I hope to see this kid pitch, maybe at Austin. I wont make the drive though unless hes starting. Austin is as close as Incarnate Word gets to me (2 hour drive), and im not making that trip if hes used sparingly out of the pen.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

quote:

“Then why do you see the elbow behind the acromial plane in this photo of Nolan Ryan?”

Because Ryan is a traditional mechanic delivery pitcher.

High speed video shows that the elbows of ALL of Marshall's pitchers (at least the ones who throw "hard") go behind the acromial plane.

This is a bogus claim on Marshall's part, and his own video proves it.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Mr.Maddux whom is capable and has thrown 94 MPH cruises at 86 to 88 and has several Of the Marshall tenets, this particular mechanical flaw (scapular loading) is what brings him still to severe inflammation to where he has to take 4 days off to pitch again. I consider inflammation a gateway injury that my Marshall many tenet pitchers never get.

This is totally unsubstantiated.

Many major league starters could pitch with less rest, and have pitched with less rest, but choose not to.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Have you ever seen or understand a child’s x-ray of the rapidly growing throwing elbow epicondile you would not make this statement?

ALL of Marshall's high-level pitchers do the same thing. It's a natural product of throwing hard.

You could even argue that the way Marshall's guys do it is worse due to their high elbows.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Would it have to absolutely destroy everybody’s arm and shoulder to change your observation? Have you read the kinesiological explanation that Marshall gives for free? at his web site about this disadvantageous mechanical movement?

Yes, and it's at odds with videos of what his guys actually do.

He's selling Unobtainium.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Do you teach active Scapular loading?

No, but I'm not afraid if it happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
How far along are you in understanding Marshall’s material, in part or all of it? I’m not sure if you have any experience with it at all physically or mentally?

I have watched all of his high speed footage and read all of his stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
He is keenly aware of full-length contractions, their effect on his mechanic and the traditional mechanic, remember he is a professor and has taught exercise phys. and kinesiology at the university level. He does NOT ask his pitchers to eliminate any full-length contractions. His mechanic actually involves this action all through the driveline unlike the traditional delivery where you end up loosing this separation after you plant you glove side foot and then turn over your arm so that it actually is going backward before it goes forward!

By rotating the hips with the shoulders, as he advises, you're taking the biggest and most important muscles in the body out of the throw.

The result is that Marshall's guys are arm throwers (with velocity problems as a result).

*Deemax,

quote:

“I have commented at lengths on this subject. Hardly a "hit and run".”

I called you out on this before and you immediately answered some kids batting question
with great detail with more than one sentence and helped him unlike all the other posters were doing, it was a great read and you nailed it with great lengthy and important information but then you always go back to “one liners” just to stir the pot. I’ve seen more emoticons out of you than words. You’re better than that! I’ve seen it

quote:

“Baseless huh? when the ball crosses the plate the pitcher is facing 1b, and his glove is facing 2b.... This position could get a kid hurt real bad. Case Closed.”

Case reopened! The drop step position is the best possible position to be in with both your feet on the ground ready to sprint to bunts and protect your face from line drives.
If you had done your homework you would not make false statements about what Marshall teaches but I am getting used to it. I’m still leaving some room that you are doing it on propose and very a very clever man. I refuse to believe you do not understand what training video is used for?

For the record, Marshall teaches you to force couple your glove against the ball through your shoulders that leaves your glove between your cheek and shoulder and your
Ball arm out in front of your ball arm hip in the classic athletic “drop step position” feet, hips, shoulders and arms rotated 180 degrees.

I teach 175%

quote:

“If traditional pitchers threw as slow as Marshall’s, they might not get hurt either.”

Again making false statements with out physically knowing will always leave you with
the ability to remain the same and perpetuate the problem but then you may not care about youth arm health enough to go out of your way?

quote:

”I hope to see this kid pitch, maybe at Austin.”

Hope you do but I seriously doubt it!

quote:

“I wont make the drive though unless hes starting.”

You may only get to read about it then and you wont have any negative ammo to throw at everybody that has any merit. This does give you a good out.

quote:

“Dont try to convince me of this. I HAVE SEEN THIS KID THROW. He pitches with traditional mechanics.”

Who is trying to convince you of anything? What I say here goes on record unless the whole thread is deleted which is usually the case everywhere when discussing Marshall and I’ve been told it has already happened here to. I have no reason to tell tall tales and I doubt very much if you have seen any of my pitchers let alone recognizing Marshall top half mechanics with out the bottom half one with it, but I hope I’m wrong!


John YaYa,

quote:

“High speed video shows that the elbows of ALL of Marshall's pitchers (at least the ones who throw "hard") go behind the armorial plane.”

So you do believe they can throw hard? Which is it?
How would you possibly know? If you’re inexperienced with it physically your statements carry no validity. You are making the same training video mistake here!
Are you saying Marshall was OK with this flaw that he calls out as incorrect?

There is no acromial plane! Marshall’s term is Acromial line. If you were talking planes, it would be the “Coronal plane.” or “frontal”opposite the “Sagittal plane.”

quote:

”This is a bogus claim on Marshall's part, and his own video proves it.”

They do a lot better than you are portraying in these training videos and they also do not over rotate their hips!
Do you understand what the use of training video is for and why it is posted?

quote:

“This is totally unsubstantiated.”

I have personally witnessed it many times! If you don’t believe me ask Deemax his father scouted Maddux physically, He knows, he was probably there? Maddux was capable of high velocity.

quote:

”Many major league starters could pitch with less rest, and have pitched with less rest, but choose not to.”

4-6 days is the way it has collectively come down to because traditionally oriented pitchers can not withstand the injurious stress.

quote:

”You could even argue that the way Marshall's guys do it is worse due to their high elbows.”

Marshall praised Tim Lincecum for this very mechanic that you seem to perceive as worse?

quote:

“Yes, and it's at odds with videos of what his guys actually do.”

Are you parroting Marshall, these are training videos!! This is why he takes them!

quote:

“He's selling Unobtainium.”

The last time I heard this, it was uttered by Chris O’Leary, please don’t tell me you are O’Leary! If you are, you’re repeating yourself!?

quote:

“No, but I'm not afraid if it happens.”

Marshall wants the humerus to, after it arrive to driveline height (temple high)
Lock in straight with your acromial line (shoulder tips) with the inner elbow rising at initial forward force application. This action is what protects you shoulder in the beginning of your forward force.

quote:

“I have watched all of his high speed footage and read all of his stuff.”

Have you noticed a huge difference in the way the pitchers perform mechanics along the training timeline with the use of this training footage and has changed from year to year from entry traditional footage to progressional footage and yes you have picked out the flaws that they all have in some form, you should see what I go through with all the different entry ages and motor skill adaptability proficiency levels.

Have you tried any of it physically?

quote:

“By rotating the hips with the shoulders, as he advises, you're taking the biggest and most important muscles in the body out of the throw.”

This would be true if that is what he taught! He knows his motion lays out in a kinetic time line with no nexus lost as in the traditional motion. He is well aware that the hips go first and so on and so on.
All parts of the body are used from the toes to the fingers in order.

quote:

”The result is that Marshall's guys are arm throwers (with velocity problems as a result).”

Marshall guys do not come to a stop then throw which makes them full body throwers
Just like outfielders and deep infielders actually using that forward body motion.

As a result they attain powerful “pronation snap” that produces the strongest throw you can attain, just like javelin throwers (Lincecum is close! 40% Marshall tenets)). I have a senior this year who was raised with Marshall top half tenets and also full version for training topping out at 94 and in the past I have had over ten kids in the low 9’s but then you might not know this happens if you have not tested it yet or just blindly take someone else’s word who also has no physical experience with it.

Did you all catch the MLB channel last week with Bob Costas interviewing Yogi Berra and Don Larsen about his perfecto in the 56 World Series, they also showed the Kinescoped converted to video entire game. To my surprise! There was Larson pitching using a full crow step aggressive pitching motion (no leg lift) with an abnormally high traditional arm vectored top half. Larson states in the interview that he had made the change 5 games before the World Series against Boston because he was tired of his bad control; he discovered that he had greater accuracy and maintained his good fastball by just crow stepping. Yogi said he was then sneaky fast, What is nice to hear is back then Larson asked his pitching coach Jim Turner if he could bring it to the game and Turner replied “I don’t care what you do as long as your getting outs” So it took him 5 games to learn this new mechanic before he perfected it against Brooklyn in the World Series. Hmmm?

quote:

I’ve seen more emoticons out of you than words. You’re better than that!

quote:

The drop step position is the best possible position to be in with both your feet on the ground ready to sprint to bunts and protect your face from line drives.

NO. Your wrong. Marshall also knows this based on his own words.

quote:

Hope you do but I seriously doubt it!

Ahh, is the Marshall excuse machine already getting rollin'? The season hasnt started yet, give the kid a chance. If he is in the starting rotation, I will go see him, if not I wont.

quote:

You may only get to read about it then and you wont have any negative ammo to throw at everybody that has any merit. This does give you a good out.

Are you going to get in your car, drive to Bakersfield and back, to see a kid that you dont know throw, and that might not pitch? Its not reasonable.

Last weekend I saw a pitcher deflect, with his glove, a 103 mph batted ball (Stalker II) smashed at his face. A Marshall type pitcher would have ended up in the emergency room.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

Marshall praised Tim Lincecum for this very mechanic that you seem to perceive as worse?


Are you parroting Marshall, these are training videos!! This is why he takes them!



Have you noticed a huge difference in the way the pitchers perform mechanics along the training timeline with the use of this training footage and has changed from year to year from entry traditional footage to progressional footage and yes you have picked out the flaws that they all have in some form, you should see what I go through with all the different entry ages and motor skill adaptability proficiency levels.

Have you tried any of it physically?

This would be true if that is what he taught! He knows his motion lays out in a kinetic time line with no nexus lost as in the traditional motion. He is well aware that the hips go first and so on and so on.
All parts of the body are used from the toes to the fingers in order.

Marshall guys do not come to a stop then throw which makes them full body throwers
Just like outfielders and deep infielders actually using that forward body motion.

As a result they attain powerful “pronation snap” that produces the strongest throw you can attain, just like javelin throwers (Lincecum is close! 40% Marshall tenets)). I have a senior this year who was raised with Marshall top half tenets and also full version for training topping out at 94 and in the past I have had over ten kids in the low 9’s but then you might not know this happens if you have not tested it yet or just blindly take someone else’s word who also has no physical experience with it.

Did you all catch the MLB channel last week with Bob Costas interviewing Yogi Berra and Don Larsen about his perfecto in the 56 World Series, they also showed the Kinescoped converted to video entire game. To my surprise! There was Larson pitching using a full crow step aggressive pitching motion (no leg lift) with an abnormally high traditional arm vectored top half. Larson states in the interview that he had made the change 5 games before the World Series against Boston because he was tired of his bad control; he discovered that he had greater accuracy and maintained his good fastball by just crow stepping. Yogi said he was then sneaky fast, What is nice to hear is back then Larson asked his pitching coach Jim Turner if he could bring it to the game and Turner replied “I don’t care what you do as long as your getting outs” So it took him 5 games to learn this new mechanic before he perfected it against Brooklyn in the World Series. Hmmm?

When you can't win with the facts, baffle us with bull****. Whew, I'm glad the swear filter works.

Lincecum is furthest from Marshall of any pitcher. He is a traditional pitcher with amplified mechanics. You are just like Kharma. Does Marshall or Kharma give lessons on how to post this stuff on message boards? Because you guys all sound the same.

quote:

Originally posted by MTS:
Lincecum is furthest from Marshall of any pitcher. He is a traditional pitcher with amplified mechanics. You are just like Kharma. Does Marshall or Kharma give lessons on how to post this stuff on message boards? Because you guys all sound the same.

Lincecum is the posterchild for hip/shoulder separation, something Marshall doesn't believe in.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
You may only get to read about it then and you wont have any negative ammo to throw at everybody that has any merit. This does give you a good out.

So does never showing any proof or names of kids that you have worked with and just giving anecdotal evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
I had an 11-year-old biologically advanced maturer throwing full Marshall at 70 MPH with 202 K’s last year with all 4 youth pitches (2 moving in, 2 moving out). At East Yorba Linda LL.

With the average little league season being around 20 games, and kids having to take 3 days off if they throw more than 61 pitches, this is very hard to believe.

If the kid threw a number of 18 K, 54 pitch perfect games, this might be possible. But it is probably safe to assume that even if he struck out every kid, he might mix in 7 or 8 balls during the game that would get that pitch count over 61.

Like I said, hard to believe.

Yardbird,

Can you post a clip of this young pitcher you're talking about? I'd like to see what he looks like.

quote:

Originally posted by FlippJ:
Can you post a clip of this young pitcher you're talking about? I'd like to see what he looks like.

I'd love to see this too.

The one full Marshall kid I've seen looks ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_fX9x38B58&feature=related

Deemax,

quote:

dirt-“Hope you do but I seriously doubt it!” Dee-“Ahh, is the Marshall excuse machine already getting rollin'?”

What is that, a talking point? You make an excuse then call it a Marshall excuse when Marshall does not post here nor make excuses, **** I wish I new how those emoticons worked?

quote:

“The season hasnt started yet, give the kid a chance. If he is in the starting rotation, I will go see him, if not I wont.”

I hear ya; at least you’ll do that!

quote:

“Are you going to get in your car, drive to Bakersfield and back”

I doubt it but maybe? If it was to help convince me to change just a few things to wipe out youth arm injuries I would say yes definitely, lets go even if he is middle relief.
Heck, I might even fly out all the way to Florida for that!
I’ll bet you can e-mail coach Maley and he would tell you exactly when Mike F. was going to pitch but that probably would not matter because all of coach Maleys pitchers are taught by him who is a Marshall practitioner and they all probably have Marshall tenets built in to their deliveries to some degree, all of them. If you go? Would you please interview coach Maley personally and see what he thinks, I’m sure he would give you the time and you can report back to us if you don’t mind? I wish I could be there to do the same.
I wish I could go see Sam pitch full Marshall at his university, I wonder what his fastball at 80 Traditional with no College interest has turned into now after full Marshall change over.

quote:

“to see a kid that you dont know throw”

You’re the one who said he would like to see just one, then I gave you the opportunity.

quote:

“and that might not pitch? Its not reasonable.”

You seemed more interested a while back? Did you ever find out what Mike F’s velocity was when he was traditional?

MTS,

quote:

“A Marshall type pitcher would have ended up in the emergency room.”

And how many traditional pitchers have ended up there to date?
Speculation with out testing leaves statements like this in the guessing realm.
Every pitcher goes to a different place with his glove just watch them all, there are few who do it correct or close to correct.

A Marshall trained pitcher is taught to powerfully supinate his glove by pulling back his
Glove arm along with his shoulders (force couple) to a position where the glove ends up right next to your cheek where you triceps (the fastest muscle in the arm) can contract to reposition the glove against line drives instantly, much better than traditional pitchers who’s gloves are usually trying to counter balance ball arm forearm flyout by rushing away from the body and head centrifuging.

quote:

“When you can't win”

This is not a competition, is this how you drive?

quote:

“with the facts”

I was talking mechanics and results, what facts are you speaking of?

quote:

“baffle us with bull****.”

You need not be baffled, this is easy to understand to a point then you must actually put some of the information to the physical test to really get it
This is what got me in to this in the first place, My BS detector went off and I tried this Marshall stuff and low and behold he was telling the truth, go figure?

quote:

“Whew, I'm glad the swear filter works.”

Please do not swear or go personal because that is where the moderators feel they can just summarily delete a whole thread (even the good information) and I was hoping to make this a mechanical thread where kids who wish to throw injury free could find some information!

quote:

“Lincecum is furthest from Marshall of any pitcher.”

Absolutely not, he gets closer than all other traditional deliveries with his arm vector and that is what we were talking about not what you brought in, he also powerfully pronates his tailing to the ball arm side fastball.

quote:

“ You are just like Kharma.”

Where can I read some of this Kharma individual, he sounds interesting?
Is he the one that lit you up? Is this how you get all Marshall related material banned on message boards? Did he talk about mechanics or did you guys talk about each other?

quote:

“Does Marshall or Kharma give lessons on how to post this stuff on message boards?”

No!! but to listen to your responses with the word “us” leaves me to believe you have a group dedicated to disinformation about all aspects of these mechanical discussions?
I would like to see this thread talk about helpful mechanics not your personal fight with
past ghostwriters!!

quote:

“Because you guys all sound the same.”

Were they just talking mechanics also?

John YaYa,

quote:

“Lincecum is the posterchild for hip/shoulder separation, something Marshall doesn't believe in.”

How can he not believe in it, he uses it and talks about it in his kinetically linked motion.
Traditional pitchers whom at the timeline you posted with the low information still has
the shoulder driving towards alignment with the hips with the ball and ball arm moving backwards all during this separation to alighnment timeline. When the ball actually starts moving forward the shoulders and hips are in the same position as Marshall’s position
Except Marshalls pitchers drive the ball all the way through rotation actually maintaining their Kinexus (kinetic linkage*.Marshall goes over in detail how energy transfers from joint to joint. When you get a chance to go over high speed video (at least 240 fr.sec.) you will be able to see what I am discribing

quote:

“I'd love to see this too.”

And would you understand it or be able to produce it?

quote:

”The one full Marshall kid I've seen looks ridiculous.”

Nice choice of words! Esthetics aside this kid whom has many things correct in the theoretical full model still has many aspects to work on as do all with lesser tenets. I will try to get some video of live action so you then can see what these mechanics can produce against batters. I think an attitude of cherring this kid on may serve him better

Beemax,

Since Deemax will not chime in on Maddux’s maximum velocity maybe you can?
Have you ever witnessed him above 90? I have seen him throw 94 in person but then again that was with a gun and it might have been 92 or 96.

quote:

“So does never showing any proof or names of kids that you have worked with and just giving anecdotal evidence.”

I gave enough information when I stated the place where they pitched if anybody was that interested to dig it out. I’m not in the habit of giving out armature’s names because I have not been given their blessing and might lead to getting my arce kicked.

quote:

“With the average little league season being around 20 games, and kids having to take 3 days off if they throw more than 61 pitches, this is very hard to believe.”

Only if your game totals are correct and your year? Two years ago I believe they had a 24
Game schedule then a single elim.league tournament then local play offs then All-stars.
I’m not sure how far they went in any of the post season.

.I will ask his dad to upload to U-tube some of his game video if you need more proof!

quote:

”Like I said, hard to believe.”

Why would I lie to you about this? I’m going on record by saying it here for all to see.
Everything I say here is to get baseball savvy people to play around with this stuff and
younger ball players to actually dive in.
You don’t even have to go all tenets (bottom half) to get the injurious aspects out of a traditional mechanic.

FlippJ,

I’ll give it a try? Over at u-tube! Not sure if my pentium II can upload over there?

YAYA those videos are scary. You should warn us before telling us to look at them.

BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

"those videos are scary"

Whats scarry is these kids learn 6 pitches and can perform them with any bottom half configuration, they just get more action the closer they get to all tenets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eplyih8Ltmg

Yardbird that was meant to impress ???
How old are they 10 ? He doesn't meet any of my tenets.

Yardbird, pitchers have been pronating before Marshall was a twinkle in his mom's eye. So the tenets you attribute to Marshall are not his. I know you know who Kharma is. I didn't know about Marshall's garbage and had developed my own son's mechanics before Marshall's site was up and Kharma tried to give Marshall credit for my son's mechanics. What a crock. When a pitcher does something of note you Marshall guys all try to give Marshall credit. I'm not going to debate with your vapor, because that is all you guys have to offer...vapor. I was not going to comment on the Marshall kid pitcher on the YouTube link Ya Ya posted. But here it is: That is so ugly and virtually illegal. You guys should be embarrassed to have the Marshall label on that.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Whats scarry is these kids learn 6 pitches and can perform them with any bottom half configuration, they just get more action the closer they get to all tenets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eplyih8Ltmg

Not bad, but nothing to write home about either. Was that a 56' or 58' foot mound (if you could call it a mound; no disrespect to the kid). My kid has 8 pitches: 4 seam FB, 2 seam FB, 4 seam change, 2 seam change, curveball, knuckle curve, slider, cutter. He drops to a low 3/4 slot on his 2 seam and change ups so one can say he has 10 pitches. He'll only use 2 or three in a game depending who his catcher is.

Who's Kharma? Here is a post you made at another site :

quote:

Yardbird PRO Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Jan 18, 2008, 6:26 am Post subject: Re: LOL------------------------------

Kharma your sleepin,

I hope you guys don’t mind this one and yes it’s a fact!
Dr.Marshall back when he was touting pronation, worked with Brian Sipe and other quarterbacks of that era on football throwing pain and the proper way to throw a football.
Whats ironical about that is Football has a bunch of educated people running it and took it to hart, baseball had a bunch uneducated people who through it in the trash.

It appears to me that you share all of the Marshall followers' traits tenets including the inability to tell the truth.

Followers of Mike Marshall caught in the act"

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

quote:

“Lincecum is the posterchild for hip/shoulder separation, something Marshall doesn't believe in.”

How can he not believe in it, he uses it and talks about it in his kinetically linked motion.

Marshall has changed his tune.

Marshall wants the hips and shoulders to rotate together so as to reduce the strain on the obliques.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

quote:

”The one full Marshall kid I've seen looks ridiculous.”

Nice choice of words! Esthetics aside this kid whom has many things correct in the theoretical full model still has many aspects to work on as do all with lesser tenets. I will try to get some video of live action so you then can see what these mechanics can produce against batters. I think an attitude of cherring this kid on may serve him better

He has the trademark gigantic Marshall head jerk.

I'm sorry, but this kid is being led down the wrong path.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

"those videos are scary"

Whats scarry is these kids learn 6 pitches and can perform them with any bottom half configuration, they just get more action the closer they get to all tenets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eplyih8Ltmg

This kid's throwing some nice pitches.

However, he's throwing them using more conventional mechanics.

BOF
Ya but look what was in the water!


BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

“Yardbird that was meant to impress ???”

Would you admit it if it did?

quote:

How old are they 10 ?

The pitcher Drew is 12 YO and I suspect he is about one year biologically accelerated.
He is playing on a 13 YO club team in SoCal in this clip last year.

quote:

“He doesn't meet any of my tenets.”

This is not a BobbleheadDoll tenet thread.
Is this how you explain your tenets, could you elaborate.

MTS,

quote:

“ So the tenets you attribute to Marshall are not his.”

That’s like saying he claims a kinesiological movement out as his invention that completely distorts what is meant by a tenet in his pedagogy. He was the first one to look at the motion of forearm pronation as the safe way to throw a bal opposed to the way all traditional coaches teach with out knowing supination as seen with the curve, cutter, Slider and some fastballs. Marshall wants you to actively and voluntarily pronate
Not involuntarily like traditionally trained athletes.

quote:

“I know you know who Kharma is. I didn't know about Marshall's garbage and had developed my own son's mechanics before Marshall's site was up and Kharma tried to give Marshall credit for my son's mechanics.”

If he did not know the training history of your child then it was a crock

quote:

“. When a pitcher does something of note you Marshall guys all try to give Marshall credit.”

I do not do this but when a traditional pitcher has called out Marshall tenets like
Voluntary pronation he could be said to have one of Marshalls tenets and as in the clip
this child as I have called out has the Marshall Tenet Sum rating of 850.

quote:

“I'm not going to debate with your vapor,”

Yet, here you are debating? This is good even with your attitude.

quote:

“virtually illegal.”

You mean the way the traditional mechanic is virtually illegal with the ball arm leg
way off the rubber at release! I agree and am glad you started to talk mechanics unlike all the high falutin guru’s whom run like the dickens at the site of anything Marshall.

quote:

“Not bad, but nothing to write home about either.”

You can’t make a compliment with out turning it into a disparagement?

quote:

‘Was that a 56' or 58' foot mound (if you could call it a mound; no disrespect to the kid).

Take your foul comments about the field up with the Huntington Beach recreational. Department please!

quote:

“My kid has 8 pitches: 4 seam FB, 2 seam FB, 4 seam change, 2 seam change, curveball, knuckle curve, slider, cutter. He drops to a low 3/4 slot on his 2 seam and change ups so one can say he has 10 pitches. He'll only use 2 or three in a game depending who his catcher is.”

I believe you and great for your kid, I hope he has learned to pronate them all but that arm slot will not allow for this, unfortunately you will have to post a video to be believed around here!

quote:

“Who is Kharma”

Well then who is he now that you think I have this inability? Is he a concerned father?
A coach? A doctor? A rebelrouser? A sports writer?Wheres he from? Can we read the information he posted here or did you get him removed by making the same disparaging comments to me here to where it snowballed into something you were not originally talking about? I noticed your group is starting to come out know and speak although they may not add anything utilitary.

John YaYa,

You will not understand what I have told you about this until you see some high speed video of traditional pitchers, their hips and shoulders are in the same place as Marshalls
when actively moving the ball in forward force and you have Marshalls explanation out of context again. He does say force is generated from joint to joint. In fact Marshalls motion is infinately connected in a contiuing Kinetic linkage unlike the traditional motion where many discontinuities happen along it’s timeline.

quote:

“He has the trademark gigantic Marshall head jerk.”

As do most traditional pitchers and its not as bad as you describe which is also
Something to work on. I will take it up with him! Thanx.

quote:

”I'm sorry, but this kid is being led down the wrong path.”

He is the top pitcher in his region and will never injure himself, I would say it’s
A yellow brick road leading him to the Emerald city.

quote:

“This kid's throwing some nice pitches.”

You are only seeing 2 of them here, maybe I should post some more footage?
These pitches alone with out much of the rest of the mechanics are far superior
To what is being taught (traditional) everywhere and easier to command!

quote:

”However, he's throwing them using more conventional mechanics.”

His MTS is 850 here, right now we are emphasizing some leg lift so he is at a
750 rating now because everybody thinks like you so he won’t be given the ball
and get cut with almost full Marshall 1000 rating.

I also agree with the head jerk and he is out of position when he finishes. His stride varies from pitch to pitch.
My son uses 3 pitches typically in a game. He doesn't do a lot of things that many believe he should. He is now 22 and never been injured. As I have said many times he was even over used during his years as a pitcher only. The earliest I have is video at 16. The batter is a college player who holds the historical highest BA and HRs at a D2 in VA. He also played for the Quebec Capitals in the Independent league. Pitched 2 innings and struck out 5. All were ex pros or current and ex college players . He struck out one guy with 3 pitches and that guy is currently with the Angels after playing for Gulf Coast and graduating from Coastal Carolina 2 years ago. He was topping out at 8
16 yo

BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

“I also agree with the head jerk”

His head actually flows out of the way to get that high of a humeral vector.
I noticed your son attains a high arm vector; this is one of Marshalls tenets

quote:

“and he is out of position when he finishes.”

This would only be true if you knew where we wanted him to finish!
Ultimately we want him to finish in a drop step position with his glove tucked between his cheek and armpit.

quote:

“His stride varies from pitch to pitch.”

His stride is designed to finish more open with the maxline pitches (tailing to ball arm side fastball, screwball and Sinker) and finish more towards center with the torque pitches (tailing to the glove arm side fastball, Slider and Curve). We will work on getting even more of a difference in both.

quote:

“He doesn't do a lot of things that many believe he should.”

If these traditional pitching coaches actually knew what they were talking about they would have left him alone.

quote:

“He is now 22 and never been injured.”

The high arm vector has helped him avoid problems, this is good.

quote:

“As I have said many times he was even over used during his years as a pitcher only.”

If he does not injure himself how could you know how many innings were enough?
With a completely non-injurious motion you can pitch day after day all day as long as you have substrate storage left and are not suffering from diminished capacity.
When did you notice a change in his performance during a lengthy game?
Did he ever get the gateway injury of inflammation?

quote:

“The earliest I have is video at 16.”

I loved the video but it was unnecessary because I already believed you.

quote:

“He was topping out at 8”

You have committed a Typo, if he was in the high 8’s, he was really bringing it and probably had a lot of pro interest. What a kid! Very impressive!

Yes a typo. 83 was his velo at 16. At 22 he is still only at 85-86 even though he has really gotten stronger. Added 25lbs of muscle.
I disagree with the comment on his hear moving out of the way. It shouldn't pull off that much and his stride should be more consistent. The remark about out of position is about fielding balls up the middle.
In my son's case you will notice he gets out over his landing foot thigh as he cranks down on the ball and releases out front
If there was a change in performance it usually occurred in the 5th but he often got stronger as the game went on.
The high elbow was one of the main things stressed with him. No one messed with his mechanics until late in his soph year at college. In an effort to get more velocity the coach made some devastating adjustments which were not good for him. I changed him back after his JR year once I saw what he was doing. He had his elbow below the shoulder and was experiencing a pinch feeling in his shoulder for the 1st time. Once he changed back he felt better and was getting late movement on his pitches plus got his velo back up to were it was. He had lost 2-3 mph. The change had also affected his pick off move.
Did you look at the other 2 videos ? The one shows him so you can see the ball movement.

BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

“Yes a typo. 83 was his velo at 16. At 22 he is still only at 85-86 even though he has really gotten stronger.”

Strength is good it bullet proofs you especially if it is proprioceptively attained.
Marshall maintains speed derives from a longer start to a longer finish more towards the
A Linear driveline.

quote:

“I disagree with the comment on his hear moving out of the way. It shouldn't pull off that much and his stride should be more consistent.”

With the traditional mechanic (magic 90) arm vector your head will stay on a more upright position, the higher your arm vector the more head avoidance is necessary.
None of my clients suffer any control problems if that is what you are thinking.

quote:

“The remark about out of position is about fielding balls up the middle.”

Well, this is a subject that me and Beemax hashed out in a long and drawn out
excellent discussion about what position each mechanic produces in both, good and bad form, I contend that the classic drop step position at 175 degrees of rotation with both feet on the ground was the way to go, not squared up only rotated 90 degrees.

quote:

“In my son's case you will notice he gets out over his landing foot thigh as he cranks down on the ball and releases out front”

His release if you were to have high-speed film would show it where all pitchers release from in an upright position

quote:

“The high elbow was one of the main things stressed with him.”

You did well here; this is what I was talking about with Lincecum.
It lessens his elbow hyper extension bone crash and shoulder mortar and pestle grind plus gives him more of a chance to use his pronators on the ball.

quote:

“No one messed with his mechanics until late in his soph year at college.”

You should see what I go through!! They see my guys and instantly try to make wholesale changes in something they do not understand yet. They always try to take pitches away from them because it’s not part of their 2 to 3 pitch combo. Very frustrating.

quote:

” He had his elbow below the shoulder and was experiencing a pinch feeling in his shoulder for the 1st time.”

Exactly right! And inner shoulder problems are the hardest ones to get over psychologically and proprioceptively after rehab. Marshall asks many of his Labrum torn
Pitchers that he gets to forgo surgery and start his mechanic where the Labrum does not get perturbed.

quote:

"Once he changed back he felt better and was getting late movement on his pitches plus got his velo back up to were it was."

Great fix!

quote:

"Did you look at the other 2 videos ? The one shows him so you can see the ball movement."

I did not but now that you have mentioned it I am going to, so you click on the ones to the right, ahh yes, nice. I see he rotates 170 on 8 pitches and rotates 90 on 3. When he rotates 170 degree his feet are in a drop step position but are right next to each other, this is caused by the traditional stride length and back bend and back side leg high lift to a leg looping land. If you noticed the ground ball that is pertinent to us here your 30 frames a second video tells us very little because of the timeline you get 2 pitching finish fuzzy small shots, shows that at some time just after contact your sons back side leg is up in the air where with Marshall later fuller rotation at finish puts both their feet on the ground with a wider drop step. This is where I contend why any crow-step delivery will put you in a better drop step position just like Mr. Golden glove Jim Kaat. Your son made a very athletic recovery from his traditional finish with one leg off the ground and still back, to get that ball, nice. If he would have missed it I think the second baseman would have taken it.

We had this discussion on Max training. You guys do not use 170 degrees of rotation. Please post a slowed down GIF showing beginning to end. You'll see that what you describe is not happening. You release the ball up high, so you fight gravity on the way up. You release with no shoulder-hip separation and your drive-lines are nowhere near advertised. Rather than coming back with an argument that would just start a circle going nowhere, please post a clip of that supposed rotation and drive-line. The clip of your own pitcher shows his shoulder is no more forwardly rotated at release than a traditional pitcher. I estimate 95 to 110 degrees of rotation. Not 170.

You need to take him to tournaments where they have real mounds.

Speaking of mounds, I'd pick up a wrist weight for what was in the water.

MTS,

quote:

”We had this discussion on Max training.”

I went there to get Sport Specific training advice from training experts and found none.
Their training regimen emphasis trains all around fitness that specific performance training applies differently. I’m sure the time spent there by me and them with that brief Marshall experience benefited both of us.
I challenged the moderator after he went and visited Marshall to comment in depth about all the sport specific drills that they performed and their application and I got one-liners about how dog patch Marshall’s place looked. This is when I exited and my participation in mechanical discussions never arose. I do not believe anybody who participated in discussions there had any physical involvement with the actual mechanics and this is where most mechanical discussions turn into rooting sessions!

quote:

“You guys do not use 170 degrees of rotation.”

I believe we were talking about finishing position for the sake of that argument.
You have confused Driveline rotation time line with after release to contact to defensive ball arrival timeline in that discussion.

quote:

“Please post a slowed down GIF showing beginning to end”

You want me to reduce the quality of very low frame rate fuzzy camcorder video to prove mechanical points to you about an individually performed mechanic, which everybody does differently?
Why don’t you go to “amazing”’s fathers video for your self and compare, it is High speed film on U-tube and report back to us and you will see he releases the ball way farther forward as Marshall predicted that children would be able to attain and he was right? none of my clients who perform close to full Marshall are at 1000 with the Tenet sum rating ? Most are at the 900 range when they are 6 to 10 using full crow step mechanics and learning the 4 basic pitches, the 10 to 14 group now has learned some kick timing and are reduced rated at 800 to 500, when they enter HS their crow hop has acquiescingly disappeared but they are still experts in all the tenets and retain 50 % of them and rated at 300 to 500 and I have found that attaining just the 3 main tenets is enough to eliminate UCL ligament degeneration and stress, all the shoulder injuries and then the elimination of all elbow injuries then have to explain the history and training timelines and accomplishment and a hundred other things.
I’m here to explain the mechanics as asked for by Marshall including his early work when he had the unnecessary leg lift component. I still have many clients who fall under a 300 rating and the all suffer from inflammation soreness, UCL pain (inner elbow) and all the other associated injurious effect, the list is long.

quote:

“You'll see that what you describe is not happening.”

I actually see something different in all of them but they are improved immensely even if we do not go all the way to full late rotation like”amazing”, Marshalls own personally trained previous traditional pitchers don’t get where this kid is now getting and his mechanics have changed since those training videos were taken. If you are that interested you can subscribe to amazing’s fathers videos.

quote:

“You release the ball up high, so you fight gravity on the way up.”

One of Marshall’s tenets is on the way up to driveline height (top of head arm lengthened thumb up) using a supinating pendulum swing the ball arrives before any forward force application so gravity has already mostly been taken care of. The release that you see is a not much better foreword but better with previously traditionally trained throwers. This aspect if performed with full Marshall mechanics the way only children can learn best gets a lot better foreword release, just go look at “amazing’s” ten frames before release? I’ll bet it’s better than anybody on earth.
The goal is to drive the ball to release inside of vertical with some bend in your elbow (straighter) all the way through using muscle to drive it not loading up the bones connective tissue (ligament). The fact that most only attain vertical fore arm does not detract from what is asked for. They still get elbow hinge correctly with some bend in their elbows.

quote:

“You release with no shoulder-hip separation”

Neither do traditionally oriented pitchers! Early rotators (traditional), mid-rotators and Late rotators (Marshall) get the same contraction lengths across their core while the ball is actually driving forwardly, Marshall hip-shoulder separating starts right at forward force all the way through the driveline and to release attaining total kinetic linkage with the hip always leading the shoulders slightly actually the same as traditional pitchers during forward force. Traditional pitchers who get their rotation and separation early then loose it when the shoulders catch back up with the hips, during all this activity the ball is actually moving backwards. There are many breaks in the kinetic linkage driveline of traditional pitchers none in crow-step or Marshall leg lifted.

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“and your drive-lines are nowhere near advertised.”

I have put out no advertisements or claims of rotational or directional achievement and mechanical perfection with my clients, more has Marshall, I think he and I understand what we are seeing in own training videos! As this evolves his pedagogy with adults and my pedagogy with Youth throwers will continue to improve, I’m all right with that!!

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“Rather than coming back with an argument that would just start a circle going nowhere”

Going nowhere with you is not my concern; I actually think I am getting some where with you whether or not you have some personal grudge? my concern is the arms of throwers whom might try some of these tenets. I’ll agree discussing it with some, means nothing to them but then the information does get out even if I have to dance.

quote:

“The clip of your own pitcher shows his shoulder is no more forwardly rotated at release than a traditional pitcher. I estimate 95 to 110 degrees of rotation. Not 170.”

You are saying from fuzzy 60 frm.sec. frontal footage you can calculate drive rotations
and that your guess is 95 to 110 degrees of rotation to release? I would say that is a lot better than traditionals 90 degree’s. I would only trust overhead clips to evaluate shoulder drive rotation if that is what I was talking about? Notice his defensive finish is always 170 to 190 degrees not the perfect 175 that I actually call for in my pitchers and this is what I was talking about.

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”You need to take him to tournaments where they have real mounds.”

Do you think this is the only park he plays in? Do you think this particular game was played on the best field at this park? I actually think this field was a softball field? Club ball has to take what they get here in SoCal. He pitched of the CSFullerton mound a couple of months ago but I did not get that footage, Sorry!!

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”Speaking of mounds, I'd pick up a wrist weight for what was in the water.”

Watch it here!! You’re going to get this thread in trouble and then they will summarily delete all the information just to get rid of some questionable quote by some body!
I’ve seen this happen dozens of times and do not want to see it here!! Get rid of the first part of your quote and then I will edit my answer here. The second part was quite comical and appreciated. Sorry if my picture of Christy Brinkley wet offended anybody!

I wish moderators everywhere would use a line item VETO to get rid of questionable content instead of the old heave ho to all of the good stuff. It would show where people get in trouble with their comments if they would just bullet veto

If you think my last remark risqué, you need to visit the "Ladies Only" Section.

Even the "Amazing" clip does not show the rotation you claim at release. He also lacks power because his foot is off the ground. At this point the throw is all arm, compromising velocity and accuracy. The kid's hand actually passes his own fastball. His defensive position is beyond horrible and he is susceptible to a line drive off of the back of the head.

MTS,

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“If you think my last remark risqué, you need to visit the "Ladies Only" Section.”

I’m stayen outa there, I woud’nt want to get any ideas.

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“Even the "Amazing" clip does not show the rotation you claim at release.”

I would say it’s more than Marshall’s guys are attaining and Marshall’s guys are attaining more than traditional.

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“He also lacks power because his foot is off the ground.”

Great point, Marshall teaches glove foot driving the ground at drive finish.

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“At this point the throw is all arm”

This is what happens when you expend all your energy forwardly progressing mass.
The last part of the kinetic chain is the fingers, this happens with traditional time line also
But I would not say because of the traditional motion ended with the fingers that they did not use the rest of their body.

quote:

“compromising velocity and accuracy.’

I’m not getting these velocity and accuracy results you speak of!!
My youngest clients 7 to 10 all throw full Marshall to learn how properly Crow-step.
Their velocity stays at the same level and the accuracy has been stop on.
With amazing we will only know when he competes whether his mechanics work to an advantage against batters.

quote:

“The kid's hand actually passes his own fastball.”

You are seeing many pitches here, the Screwball and Curve (-20 pitches) have the hand pass in front of release, this is good, The (Maxline) fastball that tails to the ball arm side of home plate is projected with both fingers together directly behind the ball with slight ulnar wrist flexion so that the leading circle of friction (ball axis) is slightly up and forward at release. The (Torque) fastball that tails to the glove arm side of home plate is projected with both fingers together directly behind the ball with slight Radial wrist flexion so that the leading circle of friction is slightly up and forward at release from the opposite end of the ball. I teach my kids to straighten out their wrist and throw horizontal axis when throwing for a gun crazed scout because straighter fastballs attain more velocity. What is nice about this pitch release system is these athletes learn how to manipulate the axis all the way forward to Sinker and Slider positions and the lesser axised pitches which then gives them two more pitches the "Maxker" and the "Torqueder"
That gives them 4 to one side and 4 to the other side with just slight manipulations in axis delineation now add in the straight Fastball, very easy to learn. Marshall only wants 19 YO biologically aged pitchers and below to learn The 4 basic pitches but all my clients automatically fall into pitch boredom and are aware of the forwardly axised pitches So when they start HS and play with the Sinker and Slider there is no going back because of the results.

The largest impediment to development happens here, when my clients tell their HS coaches they have 4 pitches they only will use 2 or 3 of them, imagine if they told them they had 6? When they enter College they then have some 2-seam variations that gives them 2 more and even at the College level the coaches are only capable of using 2 to 4 of them. Imagine if they told them they had 8 or more? Very frustrating!

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“His defensive position is beyond horrible and he is susceptible to a line drive”

You are stop on! This is not what is taught! Most times when throwing to a net maximally players tend to not be defensive and Marshall teaches to train maximally and since there is no injury they can!
I wonder what he looks like now and I wonder what he will look like in a game?
I would say amazing is full Marshall over cooked a little and I can’t wait to see how his father who is building this kids mechanics evolves them. Maybe over doing it a little will manifest itself the way over emphasizing other mechanics to get a desirable outcome has prevailed in the past?

quote:

I had an 11-year-old biologically advanced maturer throwing full Marshall at 70 MPH with 202 K’s and all 4 youth pitches (2 moving in, 2 moving out). At East Yorba Linda LL.

Why would anyone consider anything accomplished in LL to be relevant to the future? My son threw mid 60's even though he was 5 feet tall. He didn't have over 200 K's since he didn't pitch a lot of innings.

However, if I let my son pitch six innings a week through the playoffs he could have pitched eleven games. That would be sixty-six innings. Times three outs would be 198 K's if he whiffed everyone. 202 K's huh?

I thought part of Marshall's mantra was preteens shouldn't be pitching. He called me a child abuser for letting my son pitch when he was a preteener.

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“A Marshall type pitcher would have ended up in the emergency room.”


And how many traditional pitchers have ended up there to date?

Better question: How many Marshall pitchers have ended up in MLB after thirty, forty years of research?