My Mechanics

Keep working young man. I see a lot of swinging and swaying. Slow yourself down up to your balance point and then find your target as you break your hands. Your stride seems a bit short, but since you are growing you will have to adjust that with your own comfort level. Bending forward is something you will also need to work on. Its so much easier when someone can be present to show you and work with you. Check with your varisty coach and see what he thinks. Good luck and work hard.

You are throwing on flat ground so you're stride isn't going to be very long. One thing I see that could help you're velocity is from the beginning you don't put much energy into it. From the very beginning you need to get moving fast, there should be no hesitating. You don't really get moving until after the balance which is too late.

quote:

Originally posted by Bustamove:
You are throwing on flat ground so you're stride isn't going to be very long. One thing I see that could help you're velocity is from the beginning you don't put much energy into it. From the very beginning you need to get moving fast, there should be no hesitating. You don't really get moving until after the balance which is too late.

Balance is important throughout the delivery which I feel everyone would agree to.

I think everyone else would agree that you would like to gather yourself (achieve a balance point) so that your arm is on time w/ the rest of your body.

I think ideally you would want to achieve a balance point before moving forward. Simply put you do not want to go forward untill your leg gets to its highest point. No one is perfect and some may drift a touch (very slight) however some may not drift at all and achieve good balance at the top.

With that said I was wondering why Bustamove would advise a young man, whom he has never seen pitch, to "get moving fast" when he begins his delivery. "Get moving fast" is very vague. And at no time am I advocating a pause or stop at ANY point in the delivery.

Why do this or advise this when what you do prior to moving forward has no real bearing on the outcome (by this I mean how "fast" or "slow" body movements are prior to balance point). Perhaps the youngman has had problems achieving balance (from start to finish) at many different points of his delivery. We don't know this. I would just be careful throwing out advice w/o seeing a youngman pitch in person. It would be different had it been video of him in a game.

And I have no idea why you would make a comment about his stride length on flat ground vs. downhill. That is another topic.

Coachric,

I thought your advise was consise, general and helpful to young Hoovedawg. Very nice...!!!

quote:

With that said I was wondering why Bustamove would advise a young man, whom he has never seen pitch, to "get moving fast" when he begins his delivery. "Get moving fast" is very vague. And at no time am I advocating a pause or stop at ANY point in the delivery.

I said this because after watching the video the kid was moving way too slow at the start. By moving too slow you will not be able to put much energy into the pitch. Have you ever watched Roy Oswalt pitch? He isn't very big but he makes up for it by moving his body extremely fast which is why he throws hard.

quote:

Why do this or advise this when what you do prior to moving forward has no real bearing on the outcome (by this I mean how "fast" or "slow" body movements are prior to balance point). Perhaps the youngman has had problems achieving balance (from start to finish) at many different points of his delivery. We don't know this. I would just be careful throwing out advice w/o seeing a youngman pitch in person. It would be different had it been video of him in a game.

Well he wanted help didn't he? I watched the video of him and told him some problems that I saw. Do you have a problem with it? It appeared to me that his speed of movement was too slow otherwise he had very solid mechanics.

quote:

And I have no idea why you would make a comment about his stride length on flat ground vs. downhill. That is another topic.

I made this comment because Coachric made a comment that his stride looked short. Well you're stride is going to be short anyway on flatground, so he would have to pitch of a mound for me to see if his stride was long enough.

Bust, are you saying he should move his arm faster to develop arm speed? No info.

Credentials? None.

Hoove, you land completely closed, you do not use your lower body. Get a good instructor to help you with your timing and balance. you have good arm speed, but your mechanics need some help. you have potential. Get some QUALIFIED HELP.

quote:

Bust, are you saying he should move his arm faster to develop arm speed? No info.

Credentials? None.

Are you kidding me? I said move his BODY faster not the arm. Can you READ, you were telling me to watch me comprension what about you? I can tell alot of people on this board are very angry cause a newtimer like me knows much more about pitching mechanics then all the oldtimers, sorry it's a fact.

quote:

Hoove, you land completely closed, you do not use your lower body. Get a good instructor to help you with your timing and balance. you have good arm speed, but your mechanics need some help. you have potential. Get some QUALIFIED HELP.

Yeah that is a good point about landing too closed. You can't get good hip rotation if you land closed. Draw that midline and you're foot should be within 1-2 inches of that line when you land.

Another thing I noticed was that it looks like you kind of lead with you're front shoulder. As the leg is coming down from the balance you need to lead with the hip and get off the back leg quicker.

Where do you teach?

I started doing some private lessons about a couple months ago. I'm not teaching at a big time college or anything, I hope to in the future though high school or college.

For some reason I cannot get the video to come up, so I can't comment on the young man's mechanics.

However, I am concerned about the advice to speed up the body at the start. I do think it is possible to be TOO slow, but also possible to be too fast, and more kids suffer from that than the other.

It's all well and good to have good rhythm and momentum at the start. But the key is to be under control at all times. I don't care how much velocity you can generate, if you are not under control then you ultimately have no idea where the ball is going.

So Bustamove, I would temper your advice by saying that while you might think a somewhat swifter approach to the leg kick is in order for this particular boy, that advice should not be taken so far as to lose body control or balance.

Also, make sure you don't move so quickly into your kick that you start moving forward before your kick reaches its apex. Otherwise your lower body will get out way before your arm, which will cost you both velocity and control, and stress your arm excessively (meaning it will increase your exposure to injuries to the shoulder and elbow). This is also a common problem with kids who have difficulty staying on top of their breaking pitches.

Keep the kick over or very near the rubber, so that your lower body doesn't go forward until your arm is prepared to raise to the "upward L" power position for delivery. By the time your foot hits the ground your arm should be up and ready to fire. If you jump out too soon, your arm may still be low when your foot lands.

Oh my gosh!!!
I might actually agree with something Busta said.( I'm sure I didn't understand something)
In some instructional programs the use of STATIC balance is thought to be somewhat anachronistic and overused.
I attended a pitching seminar where the discusion centered on DYNAMIC balance ie. control of the body as it moves out. This has been echoed in some guru's web sites, supported by video clips of pros.(Rivera, Mussina, Clemens etc.)
Body control is extremly important but in this view Static balance may be a short cut to a dead end.
Let the debate begin.
Rollerman ( I think I'll go take a shower)

Midlo Dad, if you could watch the video you would see he is moving too slow. It literaly takes him 3-4 seconds to get to the balance. That's too long IMO.People worry about balance in the delivery too much. Instead we should be thinking how could we speed it up. I'm not saying to go really really fast where we're falling off the mound but this kid obviously has to work on that if he wants good velocity.

Hoovedawg,
Issues that may effect velocity;
I like your arm action, near as I can tell. (a look from the 2nd base angle would be helpful)
Absolutley agree that your hips need to be opening as you land. Keep the shoulders closed though.
Issues that may effect control;
Swaying as you load your drive foot and landing closed so that your throwing across your body.
Seek out some good coaching and a pitching strength developement program.
Good luck
Rollerman

Hoovedawg,

Rollerman has hit the thoughts pretty well, I think.......though I wouldn't be concerned too much about that front foot.....it seems to be opening as you stride, but the short stride length doesn't give it enough time to open up....if you start opening it too soon, you'll most likely have a negative effect on the sequence of body movements.

I would encourage you to practice throwing hard or pitching with your baseball shoes on, though........throwing on grass or dirt with tennis shoes can cause you to slip and perhaps lead to an injury.

Thanks to all for the advice. The main things I see that most of you all agree on (correct me if I'm wrong) are
-Bend foward
-Don't start moving toward the plate till I reach a balence point
-land more open
-use my lower body more
-Wait a bit later to rotate my shoulders

I was wondering what the general thought on the speed of the beginning of my wind up.

Coachric said "Slow yourself down up to your balance point"
Busta said "One thing I see that could help you're velocity is from the beginning you don't put much energy into it. From the very beginning you need to get moving fast, there should be no hesitating. You don't really get moving until after the balance which is too late."


I have never really gotten too much pitching instruction since i was pretty young (11 or 12). All of the coaches fell I throw much too slow for them to bother with. Each year its the same. They say something like "I want this to be a learning team. Everyone that wants to pitch will get a chance to". And each year they let me 2 or 3 bull pen sessions at the beginning of the season then they seem to forget about me once the games start. Im my 2 years of HS ball I have gotten to pitch a grand total of 1.2 innings (0.00 era 2 k's 2 h 0 bb), and both times were in the last inning of a game we were about to lose by the 10 run rule. But anyway--sorry about sounding like a Sally Sobstory but its very frusterating(sp?)

Thanks again for the advice.

Hoovedawg, if you want to improve you're velocity don't listen to Coachric. Because anytime somebody says slow down till the balance, that is very bad advice. I gurantee if you work on being more explosive you will gain some velocity and that will impress you're high school coach and you might have a chance.

Coachric Midlo and a couple others understand the art of pitching. Their advice is very good.\
CONTROL of the body is key to succesful pitching. The control stride is where the action starts. Hoov you are actually too open with your landing foot. The landing foot should be in a straight line from the instep of your back foot. Use a line to try and close your stride. Stradle the back foot on the line and land with your front foot on or close to the line toe pointing towards the plate. Rotate your hips so your chet is flat towards the plate and bring you throwing arm/shoulder through and bend you waiste as you finsih with your hand passing down past your calf.Your kick leg should rotate through and land squaring you up in a low fielding position. Your head should be focused on the plate throughout the delivery.
There is a lot moe to it than what I have said so you should get a good pitching book and or a great pitching coach with credentials.
Busta you need work son. I suggest you do the same.
Hoov slow it down, get to the set point relax, lift the stride leg to the balance point ,relax and start the stride under control. You should be able to maintain the balance position for a long period of time if you are truely balaced. When you reach the balance point, both hands are together and your lift leg is as high as you lift it the leg starts down and then out towards the plate and your hands break feep your elbows high, Sight elboe pointed at the plate and the trowing arm rotates and the elbow is shoulder high. As you rotate your shoulders to catch up with the hips the arms offset each othere as you drive towards the plate. Glove tucks back towards your chest/armpit and the throwing hand drives forward, release out front and drive the hand down past your calf.

Hoov I forgot to mention that you should throw to a cather. You are caught up in retrieving the ball off the wall.
I looked at the video again and I think what you are lacking is intensity. This is called rushing. Your actions have to be more deliberate. Every pitch is life & death on the mound.

Thanks. I tried to incorporate some of these things into my windup. I bent over, rotated my shoulders a little later and I threw to a catcher. I was able to reach 75 mph--about 4 or 5 mph higher than my previous high. The only thing was that since I was not used to the new things I was not able to repeat them very well, so the results were inconsistant. One pitch would be 68 and over the catchers head and the next was 75 and right where I wanted it. I guess this will get better as I practice it more.

This is a video of me trying it with the new things. The two pitches look very different, because I was not able to have the same mechanics consistantaly. (It is really freakin hot out 108 (temperature, not heat index--I think the heat index was over 110) as the high today, so thats why I'm sweating like a pig. And Im squinting a lot beacuse it was really bright out.)


http://youtube.com/watch?v=pEYdXm_P8ZU

BobbleheadDoll, forgive me I didn't realize how much his balance was effecting his delivery. I think he needs to get on a conditioning program to work on balance with his body and some core strength. I guess I was just so concerned that his first two steps were so slow that I overlooked the balance of his delivery.

Hoovedawg......relax......don't try to learn everything that everyone is writing here.....some of the advice is good and some is not; thus I'm sure it may be a little confusing.

If you aren't getting any live instruction, keep those spikes on, lengthen your stride, and release the ball as far out in front of your nose as you can......other than that, I don't want to confuse you more than you must already be after reading all of these posts!

Keep yourself hydrated, too!

slow down your leg kick, and when you begin to lift you leg point your tow down, i will help with balance

Hoov you have too much head movement. Look at the plate. You look at the plate, then look away while starting your motion.
You are also not finishing your pitch by bending over towards the plate but rather falling off to the glove side. Bend over and let your kick leg come up. Stop trying to recover or standing up so quickly after finishing. Over emphasize each part of the motion, Come set ,pause.balabce point pause Hand break/leg drop,rotate hips,(load up) shoulder and arms rotate and drive to the plate all in slow motion.
Use the towel drill and do it properly. Anything before the balance point is merely setting up your mechanics for the controlled drive to the plate. Slow it down so each step is done properly. Tiger woods dad stated his son was great because he broke down the golf swing into it's relevant pieces and became perfect at each step. Nothing is more true than this in relation to baseball. Each step should be practiced until you do each perfectly and then you put them together into the pitching motion. Then when you do that as well as you can then you work on power. Learn to control the pitching motion. This is how you become consistant.
My son is LHP 6'4 and 175lbs. He has beautiful mechanics and doesn't throw much harder than 63-84mph. He is 20 and plays D1 NCAA in the south. His mechanics have to be watched closely as they break down evey so often. Last week he went in to relieve a 29 yo former minpr league/drafted pitcher and our team was down 5-3 He faced and struck out all 5 batters with only 1 ball called over 1 2/3 innings. Everything was working. His mechanics were flawless. He was throwing as hard as I have ever seen him throw. His offspeeds were unhittable. He had one batter foul a ball off. He was having his A game which only happens rarely. He was in total control of his body.
I use to watch when he would start a game and I could tell within a few batters what kind of a day he was going to have. There were key things that I saw in his mechanics that would give you a clue. The biggest one was not keeping his center of balance at the balance point . You could see at the set he was too upright and when he went to balance poit he would lean back ever so slightly and litterally take his hips out of the equation. He would complain of lower back stiffness. Well thats what happens when you don't rotate your hips properly. It cost me $40.00 to have his sports Chiropracter tell him what I have been telling him for years.
You are very young and it is important to find someone with credentials to show you how to pitch properly.
Take a video of you breaking down each step in slow motion without a ball. Develop some intensity as opposed to non chalant delivery.

Good luck.

quote:

Use the towel drill and do it properly.

IMO the towel drill will not help a pitcher with his mechanics. I would rather have him throw a baseball then a towel.

quote:

Each step should be practiced until you do each perfectly and then you put them together into the pitching motion.

After you do this you need to speed it up because once you're balanced and you learn the delivery you need to work on being explosive to the plate.

quote:

My son is LHP 6'4 and 175lbs. He has beautiful mechanics and doesn't throw much harder than 63-84mph.

Maybe the reason why you're son doesn't throw very hard is because he is too balanced and stays over his back leg too long. Meaning his speed of movement is too slow thus he's not putting enough energy too the plate.

Busta my son gets great coaching. You are so off the mark. Anyone who says he is training pitchers and gives your advice should be locked up for child abuse. It is very clear you know nothing about pitching and are just tossing around tid bits you have picked up. I have friends in the minors who do all the things you say not to. No LT or towel drill. The 1st thing the guys in the minors (pitchers) do in work outs over the winter is pull the towel out and do the drill. You are like that Chris character that used to be on here that tried to reinvent the game with faulty logic.
My son is phisically immature for his age. We purposly took our time with physical development. He just started weight training a little over a year ago and He is carded by several ML teams .His velocity will come. His Chyro says he is in perfect shape and the velo will come as he matures. His Chyro is a former ML coach and was the pitching evaluater for the Texas Rangers, co-author of Nolan Ryan/Tom House books and currently the Chyro for the top 3 NASCAR drivers. I think I will listen to him and the other ML instructors he has had over a wanabe coach.

quote:

quote:
Use the towel drill and do it properly.


IMO the towel drill will not help a pitcher with his mechanics. I would rather have him throw a baseball then a towel.

Bustamove,

Can you explain why you beleive doing the towel drill will not help?

The towel drill (which can also be done with a longer sock, by the way) can be immensely helpful, especially with a young, developing pitcher, but really with anyone.

Many youth pitchers throw with a cutting action, even a slider action. While throwing a cutter intentionally on occasion is not such a bad idea, (a) when it crosses the line into being a slider, that is THE most stressful pitch for the elbow and strictly verboten for younger guys; and (b) you cannot pitch successfully until you have command of your 4-seam fastball to work off of.

The towel drill is important because it assures that the pitcher's arm action on his fastball is towards the plate and not cutting side to side. This improves fastball velocity and command, and reduces arm stress/injury risk.

This is essential for a young pitcher. But just as MLB hitters use tee drills to stay sharp, even a professional pitcher will benefit from making sure he is not developing bad habits in his delivery.

Which is why everyone except Bustamove still uses it.

Midlo,

Ty for the confirmation, all the people my son has worked with have used it. As you said, it helps develop a good path and proper realse for the fastball. It is one of the first things that Rich Gale (former MLB pitcher & piching coach) has any of his students do. It provides a pitcher (especially a young pitcher) with one thing that is critical for them .... immediate feedback!

I was looking for Bustamove to provide a reason for not doing it.

NHFundamentalsDad, People use the towel drill for either allignment or added extension. I don't like the towel drill because the pitcher is thinking about flexion forward. But he misses getting his trunk squared to the plate first. I think people use the towel drill for extension and the only way you can get extension is by lengthening the stride.

NHFundamentalsDad, with the towel drill you release the ball way too far out thinking about this extension thing. The problem with that is pitchers don't release the ball out there, they release it just over there front foot. So IMO you would rather work on you're delevery at game speed to get better.

Strongly disagree. You will find out that the towel will not extend out unless the trunk is squared to the plate at the time you snap it through with hand/fingers follow-through. If the trunk is not square, the towel will twist and fall short of the surface you are shooting for (usually something like the seat of a folding chair). Thus the towel drill can help with someone who is cutting the ball because they are not rotating their trunk towards home at the right moment, or ever.

quote:

NHFundamentalsDad, People use the towel drill for either allignment or added extension. I don't like the towel drill because the pitcher is thinking about flexion forward. But he misses getting his trunk squared to the plate first. I think people use the towel drill for extension and the only way you can get extension is by lengthening the stride.

quote:

NHFundamentalsDad, with the towel drill you release the ball way too far out thinking about this extension thing. The problem with that is pitchers don't release the ball out there, they release it just over there front foot. So IMO you would rather work on you're delevery at game speed to get better.

Bustamove,

Why would a pitcher miss getting his trunk square on this drill ?

Even if you do, the towel will provide feedback that you were not in the proper position. If this is so, its time to go back to other drills to correct that problem.

I have seen this drill used in a one knee position, standing...etc...it can be used in any postion you would throw a ball. It depends on wether the instructor understands what the student is doing wrong. The towel drill can provide a kid with good feedback. It is not the only thing, but it certainly should be tossed away out of hand.

Also it is a drill a kid can do inside on a bad weather day, or for kids in the North in the winter when they can not get access to an indoor facility.

I have a very simple belief in all drills.
They are like tools, used properly they help you accomplish a task. Used incorrectly, they will create even more problems.

I have watched many pitchers simply go throw the ball. If they do not understand what it is they are doing wrong, or an instructor is having a hard time making them understand the issue, drills like the towel drill become critical to helping the player grasp the concept.

I have also seen situations where a kid is overworking one issue. As an example, his release point. Being preoccupied with that, he he rushes to get there, opening up his lead side and now he begins to compound his problems.

NHFundamentalsDad, my view on drills is very different. I don't think they help at all because if it isn't exactly like the pitching delivery it will develop a faulty movement pattern and probably not transfer. The mind gets confused because you are doing different things that are not used in the pitching delivery. Things like the towel drill or the drill where you sit on one knee. Now do you hold onto a baseball like what you do with the towel drill? Do yo throw one you're knees when pitching? Drills in my experience have been very disruptive and have confused pitchers.

Bustamove,

Wow....interesting theory.

Exactly what ages are you working with.

"If it is not exactly like the pitching delivery"

So exactly how do teach the pitching delivery. I have never heard of anyone who can teach it without breaking it down into pieces that can be learned by drill repetition.

So you obviously do not believe in doing anything but having a kid stand on a mound and throw? Then you somehow convey to him all the things he is doing incorectly and how to fix them? How does this student continue to learn when he is not working with you (at home the next day for example)?

quote:

Now do you hold onto a baseball like what you do with the towel drill?

Actually it does not take a great deal of thought...every place we have been uses a towel that has been taped-up on on end into a ball....the other end is free.

You allow the free part to go between the fingers in a 4 seam grip

Well what I do instead of drills, is first I videotape him. Then I show him what I see, then we go out to the mound and work on what he needs to work on at GAME SPEED. So for example say a kid is not leading with the hip. I would then show the kid what it looks like to correctly lead with the hip. Then he would do tons of repetitons till he gets it.

quote:

So exactly how do teach the pitching delivery. I have never heard of anyone who can teach it without breaking it down into pieces that can be learned by drill repetition.

I agree completely. Working everyone at game speed is like trying to teach a child to run be fore he walks. The motion needs to be learned 1 step at a time and I start it from the ground up.

quote:

Do yo throw one you're knees when pitching?

Virtually every team I have seen has this as part of their pregame work.

How do you teach hand break then? Most instructors use the one knee positon to isolate the lower body from the upper in order to teach a proper hand break and the movement to get the arm up into the appropriate position to throw.

What is your experience? The idea that you dont use a one knee drill to teach with because you don't pitch on one knee is quite a stretch.

Your approach will lead to a high amount of inconsistency. How are you going to ingrain the muscle memory required to produce a repetitve pitching motion? Are you requiring your students to come to you every day?

quote:

Well what I do instead of drills, is first I videotape him. Then I show him what I see, then we go out to the mound and work on what he needs to work on at GAME SPEED. So for example say a kid is not leading with the hip. I would then show the kid what it looks like to correctly lead with the hip. Then he would do tons of repetitons till he gets it.

So your lesson times are unlimited ?

You talk like you only work with kids who already have been taught how to pitch.

There is a huge difference between correctly a flaw you see on video and actually teaching the pitching motion.

Example.....your student never reaches balance...how do you show him the balance position at GAME SPEED ?