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RJM posted:

Italy is a tough comparison. It’s one of the countries with a larger percentage of older, more vulnerable people. Stats can be misused. Maybe one in a thousand high school players in Mike Trout’s graduating class had a shot at pro ball. But Mike Tout’s odds weren’t 1/1000.

Stealing this from someone who posted in another thread.

Italy has roughly 60 million people total. Their largest age bracket is 45 to 55. They may have an older average age, due more to low birth rates than a huge number of older citizens, they have roughly 13 million people over 65. The US has roughly 49 million people over 65.  We have 70 plus million baby boomers, that is more people 55 and older in the US than the entire population of Italy. It could be that our death rate ends up higher both by number and percentages than Italy based on the number of Americans in this vulnerable age bracket if we don't do a much better job of slowing infection rates.

As for Italy's healthcare, they rank 3rd in the world in number of critical care beds per capita behind only Germany and the US. To assume our superior healthcare capacity is enough to treat 4 times the vulnerbale population is a stretch.

 

Not to mention our world leading rate of comorbidites such as diabetes and heart disease that impact the death rate from Covid-19 dramatically.

 

RJM posted:
roothog66 posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, staying in place could only prolong how long we have to deal with the virus and spawn a rehash at a later date as not enough people will have been infested to build immunity.   Italy may ultimately come out of this better off than many of the rest of the nations.

Prolonging "how long we have to deal with it" is actually the goal. By spreading it out over a longer period of time, you have about the same number of eventual infections, but the goal is to ensure that at any time, the number of currently infected people is kept below the capacity of our medical system. So, Italy, which was overrun and above peak capacity, will probably deal with it for a shorter period of time, but, because peak numbers exceeded capacity, the death rate there will be much higher than here. 

Italy is a tough comparison. It’s one of the countries with a larger percentage of older, more vulnerable people. Stats can be misused. Maybe one in a thousand high school players in Mike Trout’s graduating class had a shot at pro ball. But Mike Tout’s odds weren’t 1/1000.

Are you saying that flattening the curve is not the best policy?  Are there any experts saying that?

Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, staying in place could only prolong how long we have to deal with the virus and spawn a rehash at a later date as not enough people will have been infested to build immunity.   Italy may ultimately come out of this better off than many of the rest of the nations.

I was actually thinking about this this morning.  Which countries will come out of this in a better place?  Would it be the country that treats it like a normal flu, let their hospital get overwhelmed, and accept the higher death toll but gets out of the crisis faster or the countries that flattens the curve, prolonging the crisis and economic toll, but lower death rate?

I guess there is a 3rd option.  Countries like Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea who tested aggressively from the beginning and clamped down hard for a few weeks.  It looks like they are slowly coming out of the crisis now.

It's an interesting thought experiment and we may be answer this question 1 year from now.  As for me, I want to live in a culture that puts a higher value on life even if it puts us behind after the crisis is over.

RJM posted:
roothog66 posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, staying in place could only prolong how long we have to deal with the virus and spawn a rehash at a later date as not enough people will have been infested to build immunity.   Italy may ultimately come out of this better off than many of the rest of the nations.

Prolonging "how long we have to deal with it" is actually the goal. By spreading it out over a longer period of time, you have about the same number of eventual infections, but the goal is to ensure that at any time, the number of currently infected people is kept below the capacity of our medical system. So, Italy, which was overrun and above peak capacity, will probably deal with it for a shorter period of time, but, because peak numbers exceeded capacity, the death rate there will be much higher than here. 

Italy is a tough comparison. It’s one of the countries with a larger percentage of older, more vulnerable people. Stats can be misused. Maybe one in a thousand high school players in Mike Trout’s graduating class had a shot at pro ball. But Mike Tout’s odds weren’t 1/1000.

Italy is sort of a worst case scenario (given their poor demographics) of what 10 days in our future looks like, if we do what they did. For right now that looks like a running 10 day projection, though it looks like we might actually be "catching up" on that rate, which is bad.

South Korea's something like the best case scenario of what a day in the future looks like. Though we're so far behind that curve it's not that instructive for the US at this stage.

Problem is, we're not doing anything like what SK was doing, and we're not really doing as much as Italy was at the same point in time, at least not universally. And, in spite of the worse demographics in some respects in Italy, we've got our own issues with lack of general health in more vulnerable portions of the population and demographics with the level of travel that we had going on within the US during the period in question.

Infection rate in the US (to the extent we can actually measure it given lack of testing) is running ahead of where Italy was at the same point in the process now, FWIW.  Italy's rate of growth in infections has begun to slow, but doesn't yet appear to have hit an inflection point.

I'd be astounded if there aren't at least 6 figures of infections in Italy before this is done, and the US will very likely follow at least that far.

Realistically, given what we know about mortality and doubling rates already, it's nearly a certainty that there are already at least a half million infected in Italy, the vast majority of which have gone undetected.

FWIW, you can know if the measures that are being taken are working when the rate of increase in cases from day-to-day starts really decreasing.

If you're picking a thing to be concerned about in the future at this stage, you should probably be more concerned about what school's going to look like in the fall than at any point in the remainder of this school year. And cross your fingers and hope this thing turns out to be really seasonally affected.

 

Also, just fwiw, SK's entire infected population at this point is traceable back to one person that they didn't manage to lock down near the beginning.  Italy's at least partly sure that they know the initial vector for their outbreak. I haven't seen much at all about sourcing infections in the US, which suggests that there are very likely mulitple sources running around that we're unaware of to kick off more clusters going forward.

I don't want to get too political but I think it is a worrying development that some people think that some scientific topics are a political opinion.

Yeah we have freedom of speech and you have the right to believe the earth is flat but you don't have the right to mandate being taken seriously if you state such a thing.

Some things are simply not best decided by opinion or majority decision but by experts and 99% of all medical experts are agreeing what to do here. It is ok to disagree with experts but then don't expect to be taken serious.

This is no attack on people on this forum, most here do know the right thing to do in this situation but more people in general. And even in general most people act sensibly but there are like 10% idiots who are endangering the "good" 90% with their stubbornness.

 

JCG posted:
RJM posted:
roothog66 posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, staying in place could only prolong how long we have to deal with the virus and spawn a rehash at a later date as not enough people will have been infested to build immunity.   Italy may ultimately come out of this better off than many of the rest of the nations.

Prolonging "how long we have to deal with it" is actually the goal. By spreading it out over a longer period of time, you have about the same number of eventual infections, but the goal is to ensure that at any time, the number of currently infected people is kept below the capacity of our medical system. So, Italy, which was overrun and above peak capacity, will probably deal with it for a shorter period of time, but, because peak numbers exceeded capacity, the death rate there will be much higher than here. 

Italy is a tough comparison. It’s one of the countries with a larger percentage of older, more vulnerable people. Stats can be misused. Maybe one in a thousand high school players in Mike Trout’s graduating class had a shot at pro ball. But Mike Tout’s odds weren’t 1/1000.

Are you saying that flattening the curve is not the best policy?  Are there any experts saying that?

Wow! Some people just look for a fight anywhere they believe they can create it. Are you that bored? Go fight with your wife. I’m not interested. Flattening the curve wasn’t even in my discussion. I only posted you have to be careful with statistics. They can be misleading.

Last edited by RJM

I don't want to get too political but I think it is a worrying development that some people think that some scientific topics are a political opinion.

Tell the Democrats who are trying to hang this around Trump’s neck and the Republicans trying to absolve Trump of blame.

Trust me. These people care more about their side winning a lot more than how many people die and how many people go bankrupt. It’s not about the people. It’s about the power and control.

The government is supposed to be FOR the people. The problem is it’s OWNED by special interest groups. You can find out who the biggest fovernment stockholders are at opensecrets.org

Last edited by RJM
RJM posted:

I don't want to get too political but I think it is a worrying development that some people think that some scientific topics are a political opinion.

Tell the Democrats who are trying to hang this around Trump’s neck and the Republicans trying to absolve Trump of blame.

Trust me. These people care more about their side winning a lot more than how many people die and how many people go bankrupt. It’s not about the people. It’s about the power and control.

The government is supposed to be FOR the people. The problem is it’s OWNED by special interest groups. You can find out who the biggest fovernment stockholders are at opensecrets.org

 Openthebooks.com shows all the government waste.  It will make your head explode.  

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I'm not in a lockdown, I am going out but I also don't do dumbshit stuff.

People should not panic and a month ago your position was the position of reason but now situation has changed and it is not anymore.

As for the consequences they are not just endangering themselves but they are also vectors for the virus and they are not held accountable  for that.I mean you wouldn't call a drunk driver juat enjoying his life, wouldn't you?

I'm certainly not panicking at all but i believe in the position of science and now every expert agrees on what to do. A month ago my position would have been unreasonable but now it is the reasonable position and you can't call people who follow the rules of the experts paranoid although many unfortunately are paranoid now.

Dominik85 posted:

I'm not in a lockdown, I am going out but I also don't do dumbshit stuff.

People should not panic and a month ago your position was the position of reason but now situation has changed and it is not anymore.

As for the consequences they are not just endangering themselves but they are also vectors for the virus and they are not held accountable  for that.I mean you wouldn't call a drunk driver juat enjoying his life, wouldn't you?

I'm certainly not panicking at all but i believe in the position of science and now every expert agrees on what to do. A month ago my position would have been unreasonable but now it is the reasonable position and you can't call people who follow the rules of the experts paranoid although many unfortunately are paranoid now.

Given that we're more or less following the Italian path, we probably should have been on a complete lockdown a month ago. Your position would have seemed like a gross overreaction then, but it was probably what should have been done.  That's the nature of pandemics.

If you can believe the Chinese numbers, that's basically what they did.  Martial lawed 10s of millions of people in place and started testing everyone. SK appears to have achieved basically the same effect with large numbers of tests and tracking/followup and a more voluntary version of quarantining everyone exposed.

Meanwhile, we've got a Georgia state senator who knew he was showing symptoms and went to work anyway, or  Wisconsin senator Ron Johnson saying it's NBD, only 1-3% of people are going to die and we can't stop everything for just that.

I get that math is hard, but 10s of millions of people catch the flu every year. 10s of millions of people catching this means several hundred thousand to a couple million dead, and it will happen fast enough to overwhelm healthcare systems everywhere and lead to tangential additional deaths from that.

Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

The dictator, err governor of Maine shut down the state after 42 positive tests and one hospitalization. Only essential services are open. I can go out biking. I can’t stop anywhere but a grocery store or pharmacy. 

I figure I’m safer in Maine than Massachusetts. Massachusetts is a major outbreak state due to an international conference three weeks ago. But now there’s no place to go.

I dodged a bullet walking through Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall when the conference was going on across the street at the Marriott conference center at Union Wharf. There were likely conference people in my midst.

Last edited by RJM
RJM posted:

I saw an article on nature.com (Nature Magazine) had the Chinese been honest and up front about what was going on from the beginning the outbreak would have likely been about 10% of what it became.

Nature.com has a reputation of being unbiased and scientifically accurate.

That the Chinese being more upfront about it would have made a difference in its initial transmission outside of China wouldn't surprise me at all.

Thing is, the world should basically already know that would be true about a pandemic starting in China (see SARS and MERS before), and should probably be assuming anything coming out of China in this regard is much worse, potentially, than what they're claiming initially.

Which means that the US and Europe should have been far more aggressive in dealing with the spread as soon as the first cases popped up. SK appears to have cracked down almost immediately on containment, and one patient getting outside of that initial containment effort is what got them as deep as they are.

Never mind the various supply chain issues with masks and ventilators and similar resources in the US, which we should probably be addressing for the future now, not getting much more aggressive about epidemiological control in the early days is going to end up being the key detail when this eventually all gets analyzed in hindsight. It's probably going to end up having been an order of magnitude or two level difference (that is, the difference between a few hundred or thousand deaths in the US and tens or hundreds of thousands).

TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Which US governor(s) was/were  prepared?

TerribleBPthrower posted:
TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Which US governor(s) was/were  prepared?

Governor of Ohio seems to have done the best

TerribleBPthrower posted:
TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Which US governor(s) was/were  prepared?

I'm not sure you could say any were really prepared, and I don't know that they should really be expected to be as prepared as necessary in the absence of more of a federal push in the beginning.  Some have clearly done more than others. OH was getting out in front of things awfully early.  MI and NY too, though Cuomo's folksiness would drive me crazy.  GA hasn't been bad, though the leadership on getting schools closed was kind of spotty in the beginning (that's where I am).  SC and TX both seem to have been really lax in shutting things down, SC, in particular, was one of the last ones to close schools. Not sure how much FL could have down, but the interviews from the beaches were particularly egregious.  You'd think closing those would be straightforward enough in a state that has hurricane prep built-in.

PitchingFan posted:

Or go out to eat and tip a few waiters and waitresses crazy tips.  Or go buy something you don't need at a local small business and give it to someone who does need it.

Or do a thousand dollar panic run on the grocery store. I just walked to the grocery store for exercise. Everything I wanted is available including stuff I thought I would have to return at 6am before the hoarders. Either people are running out of money to spend, are afraid to spend more than necessary or America is running out of kitchen shelf space. 

American scenarios I have in mind based on what I’ve seen in stores ...

Next year at the dinner table, “Eat up! We have 56 boxes of pasta to go.

OR

Eat your canned beans! Otherwise we will never go through 200 rolls of toilet paper.

A thousand squares of toilet paper on the wall, a thousand squares on a roll. You take one down, pass it around, 999 squares of toilet paper on the wall.

😁

RJM posted:
PitchingFan posted:

Or go out to eat and tip a few waiters and waitresses crazy tips.  Or go buy something you don't need at a local small business and give it to someone who does need it.

Or do a thousand dollar panic run on the grocery store. I just walked to the grocery store for exercise. Everything I wanted is available including stuff I thought I would have to return at 6am before the hoarders. Either people are running out of money to spend, are afraid to spend more than necessary or America is running out of kitchen shelf space. 

American scenarios I have in mind based on what I’ve seen in stores ...

Next year at the dinner table, “Eat up! We have 56 boxes of pasta to go.

OR

Eat your canned beans! Otherwise we will never go through 200 rolls of toilet paper.

A thousand squares of toilet paper on the wall, a thousand squares on a roll. You take one down, pass it around, 999 squares of toilet paper on the wall.

😁

Passing the squares around is a really bad idea.  :-)

Dominik85 posted:

I don't want to get too political but I think it is a worrying development that some people think that some scientific topics are a political opinion.

Yeah we have freedom of speech and you have the right to believe the earth is flat but you don't have the right to mandate being taken seriously if you state such a thing.

Some things are simply not best decided by opinion or majority decision but by experts and 99% of all medical experts are agreeing what to do here. It is ok to disagree with experts but then don't expect to be taken serious.

This is no attack on people on this forum, most here do know the right thing to do in this situation but more people in general. And even in general most people act sensibly but there are like 10% idiots who are endangering the "good" 90% with their stubbornness.

 

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own set of facts.” ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

CollegebaseballInsights posted:
Dominik85 posted:

I don't want to get too political but I think it is a worrying development that some people think that some scientific topics are a political opinion.

Yeah we have freedom of speech and you have the right to believe the earth is flat but you don't have the right to mandate being taken seriously if you state such a thing.

Some things are simply not best decided by opinion or majority decision but by experts and 99% of all medical experts are agreeing what to do here. It is ok to disagree with experts but then don't expect to be taken serious.

This is no attack on people on this forum, most here do know the right thing to do in this situation but more people in general. And even in general most people act sensibly but there are like 10% idiots who are endangering the "good" 90% with their stubbornness.

 

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own set of facts.” ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams

TerribleBPthrower posted:
TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Which US governor(s) was/were  prepared?

It’s probably more, “Which ones got lucky?” I live in ME and MA.

ME has had few positive tests and one hospitalization. It’s not a state with many international businesses and international research facilities.

Boston MA hosted the annual international Biogen conference. There has been a massive breakout per capita. More than 80% of the positive tests in MA connect back to the Biogen convention. It was held at the Marriott Union Wharf across the street from one of America’s biggest tourist attractions (Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall). Probably every person at the conference crossed the street several times. Boston is a very international city. 

TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

It's all about the $$'s.

57special posted:
TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

It's all about the $$'s.

True. Spring break is mucho bucos. Once Disney closed they should have shut down all beaches, bars, etc. DeSantis had the power to do it.

But to the point about no one was prepared, exactly, no one was prepared.

adbono posted:
TerribleBPthrower posted:
TPM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

It seems some are still doing spring break. Here are some especially bright ones interviewed

https://twitter.com/marclamont...412987191631875?s=09

Can't believe goverment isn't preventing that. I think people should be allowed to go out and for example go for a jog but be reasonable and not excessive. We don't need to lock down people in their house but if that continues they might.

This minority of people who now screems freedom and are unwilling to give away a bit of their freedom could be responsible for the majority losing way more of their freedom.

 

I live just west of FT Lauderdale and about an hour south from the beaches of Miami Dade County. Beaches in Palm Beach County are all a short drive from where I live.

I just CAN NOT believe that they just started closing down beaches, bars, restaurants.  They even remained open since our governor, who was totally unprepared for this, declared a state of emergency. 

 

 

Which US governor(s) was/were  prepared?

Governor of Ohio seems to have done the best

He has done a lot. It remains to be seen whether what we have done in Ohio makes a clear difference. 

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