The 44 to 46 is not a problem for me. If the 6-7 is true, then it needs to get out and it will hurt them. It did not happen when they were recruiting son but that has been 5-6 years ago.
@PitchingFan posted:Adbono, we normally agree but 46 is not too many. If you can have 40 because most p5 schools have 3-5 Covid grads, you will have 2-3 that are hurt each year that the coach will know can't play spring and 2-3 that are not ready to play as freshmen and 2-3 that didn't continue to get to the level they should or discipline or grades or such. Then you also have 2-3 who read the writing on the wall and quit because they were 3rd or 4th or lower on the depth chart and aren't willing to wait.
I disagree with the statement that a walk-on not being kept is cutting. If you are a walk-on, you are not guaranteed anything. A preferred walk-on is guaranteed to be kept through the fall but that is all. There are very few schools that guarantee a roster spot to anyone not on scholarship in today's world. It may be assumed but you know what happens when you assume. If you go there, recruited or on your own as a walk-on, you know there is a chance you are not on the spring roster. If you don't shame on you.
Yes, we often agree. But in this case the only thing I agree with is that we don’t agree. And here is my reasoning:
Over the course of a 60 ish game D1 season the distribution of playing time looks like this. 12 position players get the meaningful at bats and 10 pitchers share the meaningful innings with 3-4 getting the lion’s share of them. That makes 22 players. Add an extra player at the C, IF, & OF positions and you have your 25 man travel roster. With a 35 man roster you have 10 players to take care of all the things you mentioned that cause attrition. 35 players is more than enough. Anything beyond that is just more guys that get no playing time, minimal reps in practice, no attention from the coaching staff, etc. But they pay that tuition, don’t they!? IMO there is no need to bring in more than 38 in the fall if you intend to give every kid a fair shot. So not only is 46 too many, it’s too many by a count of 6-8 players.
Regarding walk ons… they don’t just appear on a D1 campus of a competitive program. They are recruited and invited. I don’t believe there is any real distinction between a preferred walk on and a walk on. Neither are promised anything and both are likely to be cut. However, almost all of them (foolishly in most cases) passed on scholarship opportunities at other schools. When they are asked to leave a D1 school that is being cut and counts as such in my mind.
Blatant over recruiting is widespread. And IMO a huge part of the recruiting process for players and parents should be identifying the programs (at that player’s level) that don’t over recruit and focusing on them. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to do. The information you need is purposely obscured from public scrutiny. But I am saying that it’s one of the very most important aspects in determining the kind of experience a college player has.
We actually agree on much of it but I put it on the players and families as the majority and the coaches as the minority. The ones who are blatantly lying is one thing but if you do your research, you know those already and stay away from them. Our favorite SEC school growing up had a tradition of over recruiting and cutting kids at the end of fall so we did not even send them an email or anything. Parents should do their research for the kid. Those who say they let their kid drive that recruiting car get what they deserve. That would be like putting a kid in a literal car who had never driven with anyone and put them on the interstate. You can't blame anyone but yourself when you car and your kid get destroyed. It is our duty as a parent to drive the car with the kid getting input and learning. Those who don't get what they deserve.
We, which really means me, did a great amount of research on every team son was interested in. I knew the roster sizes and history of roster, who over recruited and who didn't, players son had to compete for playing time with that were already at school and those who were already committed, coaching tenures, pitching coach philosophy, and records. UT was near the middle until they fired their coach and hired Vitello. Checked a lot of boxes. Only had 1 left handed pitcher who would be on roster when son arrived. Only had 3 total LHP's that had committed who son would have to compete with early on. Pitching coach had proven record of not being a high velo required guy. Had a son, LHP, very similar to mine who pitched in pros.
If son was in recruiting now, UT probably would not be on the list because now we have a bunch of LHP's that son would have to fight against to get playing time. My quote is: How many players wearing the same uniform will you have to beat out to compete against the team wearing the other uniforms?
I reckon for me I also the guys who stayed the course at UT who were redshirted as freshmen and didn't get to play as sophomores but were drafted last year after only one year of full-time play. I realized that you can make 46 work if you are willing to stay the course. The problem in today's world is very few are willing to wait their time in college baseball or play a role. Son could have been starter at almost every mid-major and even lower P5 schools that recruited him but he wanted to play with the best and against the best and that has been the case. He will never start at UT but he has been to the college world series, been SEC regular and tournament champions and has 2 more years he can play. He will leave with his name at the top of at least one record in the record book and may be in top 5 of several after this year. He knows his role and is fine with it. He has been able to experience some incredible things even if he never gets a chance at pro ball.
@PitchingFan, I completely agree with all you say in your last post. However, you and I have more extensive baseball backgrounds than most HSBBW members. You knew how to do your homework and you did it well. That has a lot to do with the kind of experience that your son is enjoying at Tennessee. I did a similar job doing homework for my son and his experience was also tremendous - tho cut short by a back injury. You also can’t discount the fact that Covid related developments have complicated the recruiting process terribly. You and I didn’t have to contend with that.
To answer the original question, my son was just offered by a D1 mid major last Fri. Unfortunately, they don't stack athletic and academic (is this very common?). The amount he will get from either is similar so we chose academic as he has opportunity of getting more in academic money come Feb/Mar. Coach also said that it's possible (although rare) to get athletic money after year 1 and that can stack on top of academic he already has, but the other way is not possible.
I tried to do my research but not sure if I know enough to do a thorough research. They took 10 HS players in 2021, 5 in 2022, and 9 in 2023 (as of today). Coach said they do take in Juco players but don't really play in the transfer portal. Since my son will not be taking athletic scholarship, my understanding is he will not need to sign an NLI, correct? We asked the coach if going with academic scholarship means he is treated as a preferred walk on with no assurance of a roster spot compared to someone going with athletic scholarship. Coach said they still will have an agreement that the school and my son will sign that commits my son to the school and commits a roster spot to my son. Hope this all makes sense. Is there anything I need to be careful of or look out for?
If the money is near the same I would opt for athletic over academic. Coach can say whatever he wants but reality is that kids on athletic money are in a superior position to those that aren’t.
Agreed. Athletic guarantees a roster spot but academic does not guarantee it and I don't really care what you sign. A signed document is only as good as it can be enforced. If you sign that document, it should have a repercussion on it if either side does not follow through or it is just a gentleman's agreement.
@adbono posted:If the money is near the same I would opt for athletic over academic. Coach can say whatever he wants but reality is that kids on athletic money are in a superior position to those that aren’t.
I think that decision depends on how focused they are on baseball. Academic money is almost always a 4 year deal (with some minimum GPA requirements that are not too difficult). The athletic scholarship money - Mid Major - is for one year - and could drop if starting out above the minimum or simply go away altogether. It does make an early release from the team easier, but if the kid is on the bubble to begin with (not saying he is - just if), then a release is simply postponed.
As for the "agreement" that commits the player and the coach - I am waiting to hear from others what that might be because I have absolutely no idea what he could be referring to. Also not quite sure why stacking is not allowed freshman year, but could come into play as you outlined. Would like to hear more specifics and any other examples from others.
Lesson learned for all. How much a team, not a school but a team, has invested in you is how much room you get to fail. That goes for pro teams also. How much they invest in a player determines the room to fail, not succeed.
What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
May be a school thing. Son got both at a P5/D1.
@PitchingFan Your son is a fan favorite, so fun to watch. We are cheering for him to make it to the next level. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen him coming down the 1st base line from the bullpen and interacting with the younger kids.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
My son just signed his NIL to a P5 and will also be getting academic money to stack on top of that. The school he was previously committed to, also a P5, also had him on both athletic and academic. His top school when he was a freshman (private P5) could not stack athletic and academic. So I think it may be a school to school basis on if stacking is allowed.
@Table46 posted:@PitchingFan Your son is a fan favorite, so fun to watch. We are cheering for him to make it to the next level. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen him coming down the 1st base line from the bullpen and interacting with the younger kids.
Fun side story that should make @PitchingFan smile...
Our sons played together for a couple years, though PF and I never really knew each other at the time. Whenever there was a foul ball down the line on our side, Kirby would always run after it using 100% effort, sprinting full-speed to pick it up and back to the dug-out.
Even now, several years later, we still use the verb he invented for us. I told my son just the other day after a fall ball game that I was proud of the way he had "kirby-ed" that foul ball. 
He has done that for years. Started when his middle brother was playing at The Citadel. He was the bat boy. He was determined no one would get a foul ball or passed ball behind home plate. They were playing a P5 one day and he actually slid in and stole a ball right out in front of a well known HC who has raced him to get a ball behind the umpire. The whole place erupted. It is somewhere on YouTube. Don’t remember title of it now.
Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
Re stacking athletic and academic money - As evidenced with how late my son got an offer, he wasn't highly recruited by the big P5 schools. The schools that has shown interest are all D1 mid major, D3 and Juco. Every D1 mid major that has shown interest in him (around 10 schools) all said they do not stack. His teammates that got offered by P5 said all the P5 schools that has shown interest in him stacks. Not sure if the norm is big P5 school can stack and D1 mid major don't stack.
My kids' D1s, and previous D1 that oldest was at stack money. There are NCAA requirements you have to meet. Not sure what they are now, but they were: 3.5GPA or 1270 SAT (equiv ACT). And you need to maintain a 3.0 GPA once enrolled.
@atlnon posted:Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
Re stacking athletic and academic money - As evidenced with how late my son got an offer, he wasn't highly recruited by the big P5 schools. The schools that has shown interest are all D1 mid major, D3 and Juco. Every D1 mid major that has shown interest in him (around 10 schools) all said they do not stack. His teammates that got offered by P5 said all the P5 schools that has shown interest in him stacks. Not sure if the norm is big P5 school can stack and D1 mid major don't stack.
You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
@PitchingFan posted:You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
100% on point.
@PitchingFan posted:You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
Exactly. My kids (D1 baseball and softball) received 50% academic money. I advised them if they don’t receive athletic money chances are they start viewed as a back end of the roster player. They both received 25% athletic.
It worked well for everyone. My kids each had 75% rides. The coaches only gave up 25%. But they had skin (athletic money) in the game. A kid who can stick through college on 25% is a plus for the program. They have more to give to other players.
@atlnon posted:Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
With only 11.7 scholarships no program is actually forced to award any athletic $$ to any of the 27 max players allowed. That's why programs stack athletic with academic. It is also up to the coaches budget. Many programs are not even FULLY funded.
That's why NIL opportunities have become a big consideration in recruiting.
There has been discussion here on several occassions about a program letting players go because the coach needed their athletic $$. So according to what's been posted, even if you have athletic $$, you might not have skin in the game.
There is discussion and hopes that the NCAA will allow more athletic scholarships for baseball and other sports.
Your son has found an opportunity, and his situation is not unique. There are MANY players out there not on athletic scholarship.
JMO
Got to disagree in this instance where the kid is offered athletic but chooses academic. Again no big hassle to cut the 25% athletic kid after one year. If I am coach and have to decide between 25% athletic kid and academic kid - who is a freebie - then I am cutting the 25% kid and hanging on to my freebie. The athletic investment at a mid major has a very short shelf life. No big hassle in cutting him loose.
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:Got to disagree in this instance where the kid is offered athletic but chooses academic. Again no big hassle to cut the 25% athletic kid after one year. If I am coach and have to decide between 25% athletic kid and academic kid - who is a freebie - then I am cutting the 25% kid and hanging on to my freebie. The athletic investment at a mid major has a very short shelf life. No big hassle in cutting him loose.
Chances are if a coach is deciding on his last cut of who to keep and who to let go neither player is in a good place. The player kept is likely at the end of the bench and not getting on the field.
@RJM posted:Chances are if a coach is deciding on his last cut of who to keep and who to let go neither player is in a good place. The player kept is likely at the end of the bench and not getting on the field.
That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
Those that are saying that athletic money matters more are (for the most part) the ones that have gone thru the experience. They have seen in play out firsthand with their own eyes. But what do they know!?
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
If you scroll back a few posts I described a win-win situation. My kids both received academic and athletic money. Combined, college was inexpensive. The coach was invested in them. Their academic portion provided the coach more athletic money to spend elsewhere.
Who gets cut first?
It is the player who doesn't contribute to the team GPA or the team success.
@TPM posted:It's the team GPA because that's a bonus to the HC and possibly the academic advisor.
The next debate would be what’s worse, losing a bonus or a scholarship? For the academic advisor it’s an easy answer. For the coach it depends on the circumstances of the moment.
@RJM posted:The next debate would be what’s worse, losing a bonus or a scholarship? For the academic advisor it’s an easy answer. For the coach it depends on the circumstances of the moment.
Exactly. It’s possible for the decision to be made b/c of team GPA. But all things being equal it’s more likely to be made based on who is on athletic money and who isn’t.
FWIW:
3 kids from my son's club were cut before Thanksgiving. One was a 2022, P5 PWO. Another was mid major PWO. The 3rd was a 2021 mid major who was getting athletic AND academic money. Its a production business and its just that.....business.
@Master P posted:FWIW:
3 kids from my son's club were cut before Thanksgiving. One was a 2022, P5 PWO. Another was mid major PWO. The 3rd was a 2021 mid major who was getting athletic AND academic money. Its a production business and its just that.....business.
It's not uncommon parents and players coming out of high school don't get it. The high school coach is usually a teacher making a few extra thousand coaching. A college coach is paying the mortgage and feeding his family by winning. Otherwise, he gets fired and puts it all at risk.
@RJM posted:It's not uncommon parents and players coming out of high school don't get it. The high school coach is usually a teacher making a few extra thousand coaching. A college coach is paying the mortgage and feeding his family by winning. Otherwise, he gets fired and puts it all at risk.
I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
Definitely not true of D2 coaches. I am currently finishing my Master's Degree and one of my professors for my mental health class is the current coach of a D2 school in my area. Funny thing is he knew of my son and which D1 school he had gone to and I got a great grade in his class! 
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
I agree.
I think what all coaches really want to do is fill in their own line up card for every game and help mentor boys who will become responsible men. They also take pride in mentoring their assistants who go on to be Head Coaches.
Not everyone has the desire to be #1.
JMO
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
Who is looking at these program? Not players who care about winning. Granted some players will use the baseball program to get into the college. Once in caring about playing is a toss up.
@RJM posted:Who is looking at these program? Not players who care about winning. Granted some players will use the baseball program to get into the college. Once in caring about playing is a toss up.
What happened to the kinder/gentler HSBB attitude about helping high school kids looking for a place to play baseball in college? What happened to most the idea that most "decent" players can probably find a place to play college ball albeit not necessarily a perfect match? There are lots of players that care about winning that don't have the skills to ever sniff a D1 lineup - much less the CWS - but will grind it out four years of college baseball, in front of a few family and friends, in hopes of winning each game. I never took this site for a "P5 or die" approach and rather enjoyed to discussions about D3 baseball opportunities.
Can anyone quote the number of high school kids committing to a P5 baseball program yearly? Any one know what percentage P5 commits comprise of all high school kids heading to college to play baseball (as well as hopefully get an education at the same time)? I'll throw out 5%. This site IMO was never how to get your kid signed by a P5 school (usual comment was if you are good enough for P5 - then P5 will find you). This site - again IMO - was about the other 95% (assuming my wild guess 5% is correct).
Well my numbers are little dated (from 2020):
number of HS bb players: 512213
number of college bb players: 61211 12%
number of D1 players: 10756 2%
number of D1P5 players: 2400 .47%
number of MLB players: 1200 .23%
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:What happened to the kinder/gentler HSBB attitude about helping high school kids looking for a place to play baseball in college? What happened to most the idea that most "decent" players can probably find a place to play college ball albeit not necessarily a perfect match? There are lots of players that care about winning that don't have the skills to ever sniff a D1 lineup - much less the CWS - but will grind it out four years of college baseball, in front of a few family and friends, in hopes of winning each game. I never took this site for a "P5 or die" approach and rather enjoyed to discussions about D3 baseball opportunities.
Can anyone quote the number of high school kids committing to a P5 baseball program yearly? Any one know what percentage P5 commits comprise of all high school kids heading to college to play baseball (as well as hopefully get an education at the same time)? I'll throw out 5%. This site IMO was never how to get your kid signed by a P5 school (usual comment was if you are good enough for P5 - then P5 will find you). This site - again IMO - was about the other 95% (assuming my wild guess 5% is correct).
There are many members of HSBBW that have been around a lot longer than I have and maybe some of them will offer their opinions. But here is mine. I believe that you have made assumptions about the history of this site that aren’t accurate. That’s my perception anyway. I believe this site was born out of a need to make good information available to competitive baseball families. It proved to be a very useful tool to many people but was initially geared more towards higher level players - those with upper D1 and draft talent. Over the years, as more people have joined, there has been a big increase in interest in other levels of baseball. And therefore more conversation about those levels. Some people like that and some people don’t.