@adbono posted:It’s a competitive thing. Not a regional thing. The more competitive the program the more this goes on. There are more competitive programs in Texas and in the south than in the Midwest or the Northeast. So if it’s more prevalent here that’s the reason.
So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
@baseballmom01 posted:You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
baseballmom01,
I agree, it definetly is a regional thing.
@baseballmom01 posted:So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
@adbono posted:I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
@baseballmom01 posted:No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
No arguing on my end. Just trying to provide the most accurate information to any parents coming here for help.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
@baseballhs posted:It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
True. It’s the majority of the top 100 D1 programs.
@TPM posted:Can we find out who is in the majority of those top 100 D1 programs?
I am just curious as to who and where.
You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
@adbono posted:You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
Not sure the last time you looked but most P5 programs have not listed their 2023 rosters but that does not mean they haven't already set their 35 man roster (or up to 40 due to covid seniors).
I want to know, as I am sure others do, who brings in 50 in the fall.
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
Um....Arkansas?
How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
@PitchingFan posted:How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
@Master P posted:Um....Arkansas?
Yes, maybe the worst offender. Also Texas Tech, TCU, Oklahoma State, Houston, Wichita State, Grand Canyon…. just to name a few off the top of my head. Just look at the size of the typical recruiting class. Add JuCo transfers and portal transfers. If that number is more than 15 they are over recruiting. Do the math. Amazing to me the people that are affiliated with schools that aren’t bringing in big numbers in the fall don’t believe that it’s going on anywhere. It’s hard to prove b/c the worst offenders don’t publish a fall roster for this very reason. They don’t want the public to know how many they bring in every fall. But if you know you know. To me, finding schools that don’t over recruit should be one of the top priorities during the recruiting process.
Arkansas is the poster child for over recruiting in college baseball. And they have been for many years. They bring in close to 50 every fall. The walk ons at Arkansas are recruited players. Some are HS players and some are JuCo. They may not be on scholarship but they were recruited. When they spend a fall semester at Arkansas and then are asked to leave that is being cut.
@baseballhs posted:Well, you used to know, to some extent. All you had to look at was how many were in your recruiting class. Now, do you need to know how many were in the recruiting class, and guess how many transfers are coming over.
Last year our school had a recruiting class of 14. Five are left. Our school has taken lots of transfers.
I think it depends on the programs philosophy. There are programs that recruit on a 3 year cycle because of the draft. There are many, IMO, who aren't good at roster management. I think it's special skill not just reserved for P5 coaches.
The majority of the top programs do not want players staying forever so recruiting is a large part of the craziness.
So if a player looks like they may not get drafted in 3 years as previously thought, they may part ways or the player leaves thinking the grass is greener and that's ok.
A program will never have all of their committs graduate. But a good program will know how to bring their committs along fairly and slowly. Of course the more talented the prospect the less time that he will sit on the bench. It's not all about, IMO, bringing in more because you only need half. It's about bringing in the RIGHT guys for your program. You don't have to be a top P5 HC to achieve that goal.
It's also about the committs making the right choices as well.
JMO
Adbono
1992 SRJC finished #3 in the State of California Three players went to U Oklahoma, one player to Texas, one player Hawaii ( #7 ) ranked in America. They played every game the 1st year and 2nd year.
The entry to College of successful JC players has not lessen. This should be a major factor in a young player decision. Study, ask questions and in the Summer play against 20 year old players. Learn the real game!
“competition is a teaching and learning opportunity “
Bob
@nycdad posted:Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
If a program brings in a young stud recruit, developing them should be about giving them opportunities to learn, not redshirting on the bench.
Bringing in a lot of future studs to sit it out is like hoarding, you don't want your biggest rival to have them.
@TPM posted:If a program brings in a young stud recruit, developing them should be about giving them opportunities to learn, not redshirting on the bench.
Bringing in a lot of future studs to sit it out is like hoarding, you don't want your biggest rival to have them.
And this is happening too. I think you base a lot of things on your son and where he is or the programs he was involved in. First, I don't think most of these coaches see themselves as bad guys and maybe they aren't, but some ARE snakes, and not a few. Yes, hard choices, but there are ways to do things that give guys a shot to move on. We cut a junior 2 weeks ago. Had they cut him over the summer, he would have been able to enter the portal and move on, instead, he can only go to a D2 now if he wants to play in the spring....he is stuck in a lease, etc. (By the way this is a kid who pitched in the Cape last summer, was a major contributor to the team that went to the championship, and D1 baseball did a write up on him). We also cut a sophomore 2 weeks ago, now he can't play in the spring unless its a JUCO. Coaches have choices, great, give kids options too. It's not isolated. We were very involved in the showcase circuit and know a ton of top 100 ranked 2019, 2020, 2021s. My information is current and although it may not be everywhere it IS widespread. Even mid majors that get been top 25 have done similar things. I have a million antidotal stories...people can take them with a grain of salt or maybe be cautious. I don't understand why any of us would lie about this, so acting like we are misinformed just doesn't make sense. if you are part of a program that doesn't operate this way, you are blessed and I would say that is an opportunity you should take.
@adbono posted:You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
I would love to know which teams you are referring to in the top half of the Big 10! Side note...they have all posted their 2023 rosters as well.
@baseballmom01 posted:I would love to know which teams you are referring to in the top half of the Big 10! Side note...they have all posted their 2023 rosters as well.
The very first team I pulled up was Nebraska. Don’t know much about that program, but they do have the roster listed. And there’s 46 on it that’s 11 that need to be cut, red shirted or be COVID grad students.
@baseballhs posted:The very first team I pulled up was Nebraska. Don’t know much about that program, but they do have the roster listed. And there’s 46 on it that”s 11 that need to be cut, red shirted or be COVID grad students.
One school..not Michigan, Rutgers, Maryland who are all in the top half of the Big 10. How many of them are Covid Seniors which allows a higher roster limit? Still not massive over recruiting.
Again, not saying it is not happening at other schools, but can't say I agree with some of the "blanket statements" that have been made.
@baseballhs posted:And this is happening too. I think you base a lot of things on your son and where he is or the programs he was involved in. First, I don't think most of these coaches see themselves as bad guys and maybe they aren't, but some ARE snakes, and not a few. Yes, hard choices, but there are ways to do things that give guys a shot to move on. We cut a junior 2 weeks ago. Had they cut him over the summer, he would have been able to enter the portal and move on, instead, he can only go to a D2 now if he wants to play in the spring....he is stuck in a lease, etc. (By the way this is a kid who pitched in the Cape last summer, was a major contributor to the team that went to the championship, and D1 baseball did a write up on him). We also cut a sophomore 2 weeks ago, now he can't play in the spring unless its a JUCO. Coaches have choices, great, give kids options too. It's not isolated. We were very involved in the showcase circuit and know a ton of top 100 ranked 2019, 2020, 2021s. My information is current and although it may not be everywhere it IS widespread. Even mid majors that get been top 25 have done similar things. I have a million antidotal stories...people can take them with a grain of salt or maybe be cautious. I don't understand why any of us would lie about this, so acting like we are misinformed just doesn't make sense. if you are part of a program that doesn't operate this way, you are blessed and I would say that is an opportunity you should take.
So you think because this happens at your son's program, that it happens everywhere? Maybe very much where you are. It's a shame.
I stand by what I posted, some guys aren't very good at roster management.
I think I am familiar with enough current and former players to know what goes on at many programs. I have many friends whose sons played, are now coaches themselves or employed with ML teams. These guys come from all different types of successful programs. The ones that did it the right way and still do. That's why their former guys are successful.
Excellent example by @baseballhs. I’m sure there are other Big10 schools that fit the same mold.
@TPM posted:Not all.
All the ones in the top half last year have. Maryland, Rutgers, Iowa, Michigan..
@baseballmom01 posted:All the ones in the top half last year have. Maryland, Rutgers, Iowa, Michigan..
Ohio State has a 2022 2023 roster, that's not an official spring roster. Nebraska does not have their spring roster up 40 is the max.
Can't go by what's posted now, despite what is mentioned here.
@baseballmom01 posted:One school..not Michigan, Rutgers, Maryland who are all in the top half of the Big 10. How many of them are Covid Seniors which allows a higher roster limit? Still not massive over recruiting.
Again, not saying it is not happening at other schools, but can't say I agree with some of the "blanket statements" that have been made.
If they want to play any games against other schools in the fall, they have to cut down before doing so. Many schools made cuts weeks ago so they could play a game against another school. I don't really know any schools that post their rosters before cuts are made.
Pre-Covid, Michigan and Maryland had 13-14 in every recruiting class not counting transfers.
@langra posted:If they want to play any games against other schools in the fall, they have to cut down before doing so. Many schools made cuts weeks ago so they could play a game against another school. I don't really know any schools that post their rosters before cuts are made.
Pre-Covid, Michigan and Maryland had 13-14 in every recruiting class not counting transfers.
But not 50 which was mentioned here.
Final rosters come right before season starts.
Maryland roster shows 40 players including 13 freshmen. 35 is max for spring meaning at least 5 will be cut or redshirted. Probably all freshmen. That’s the situation now. As mentioned in a post above there were likely earlier cuts. Even if there were not earlier cuts, 5 cut out of 13 incoming freshmen is just under 40%. If only 60% of a recruiting class is still on the roster after one semester I call that over recruiting.
Maryland has 2 5th year seniors. They only have to cut 3.
@TPM posted:But not 50 which was mentioned here.
Final rosters come right before season starts.
If you sign 13-14 plus transfers every year, you are probably around 45+ to start each fall. It isn't as bad as Texas Tech signing 20/year but it's still over-recruiting.
Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
Right now, looking at rosters to figure out recruiting tactics is sort of futile--covid seniors, transfers, not knowing when cuts are made etc.
@langra posted:Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
That isn't something new. That was sons offer years ago. That was what I was referring to as the 3 year cycle. Recruiting is a skill, not every HC and their RC is good at it. Now throw in the covid guys and it gets messy. The problem isn't the roster limits its the 11.7 and lack of funding.
I am still waiting on who brings in 50 in the fall, its obvious there are programs that over recruit, its not a new concept.
If you can't mention who they are, than why are you mentioning it?
Found a Texas program close to 50 that is not a P5.
@langra posted:Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
They can’t do that. Starting in 2017 or 2018, all P5 scholarships are required to be 4 years if you get money as a freshman. They can ask you to leave (and if you want to play, you almost have to) but they cannot take your scholarship or only offer you 3 years.
Basic question here - when looking at PG recruiting board, I always wondered how 20 kids posted commitments to a single school when the math never worked on every one of them having received a 25% offer - and further assumed that some of them did actually have offers of 50%+ (not to mention all the great players already on scholarship). Is it safe to assume that some of the kids are recruited walk-ons and do not have scholarship offers when they post commitments? Do the schools offer more scholarships than are available and whittle it down during the NLI process? Are any kids told they might get scholarship dollars if enough of the remaining kids get drafted or fall away for other reasons? IS it a combination of the above?
It is a combination of all the above.
Adbono, we normally agree but 46 is not too many. If you can have 40 because most p5 schools have 3-5 Covid grads, you will have 2-3 that are hurt each year that the coach will know can't play spring and 2-3 that are not ready to play as freshmen and 2-3 that didn't continue to get to the level they should or discipline or grades or such. Then you also have 2-3 who read the writing on the wall and quit because they were 3rd or 4th or lower on the depth chart and aren't willing to wait.
I disagree with the statement that a walk-on not being kept is cutting. If you are a walk-on, you are not guaranteed anything. A preferred walk-on is guaranteed to be kept through the fall but that is all. There are very few schools that guarantee a roster spot to anyone not on scholarship in today's world. It may be assumed but you know what happens when you assume. If you go there, recruited or on your own as a walk-on, you know there is a chance you are not on the spring roster. If you don't shame on you.
@TPM posted:Ohio State has a 2022 2023 roster, that's not an official spring roster. Nebraska does not have their spring roster up 40 is the max.
Can't go by what's posted now, despite what is mentioned here.
Nebraska currently has 46 kids on their 22-23 roster. Ohio State has totally changed their recruiting philosophy with their new coaching staff. Look for them to start using the same SEC/Big12 model.
@TPM posted:I am still waiting on who brings in 50 in the fall, its obvious there are programs that over recruit, its not a new concept.
Arkansas started the fall with 44 kids. This doesn't count the 6-7 signees that they called in the summer and said, "Sorry, don't come. We don't have a spot for you, good luck."
