Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise 
).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
Hey thanks, I post that site periodically. Its a good resource.
However, my premise is that pitchers get hurt, even in ideal situations, but there are different times when getting hurt can hurt and when it wont as much.
Once your son leaves your home you have no control over his destiny. I know that you all know that his workload will increase significantly when he goes to college or turns pro. So control what you can, when you can, even if that means that he may not be playing as much as the kid next door, not attending as many showcases, sufficient off season rest, but at least when something does happen you don't have to think about what did you do wrong.
JMO
Originally Posted by chefmike7777:
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise ).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
DK did not pitch the summer after freshman year because of the amount of innings he put in (highest amount for a freshman). That was a decision recommended by pcoach.
IMO the only time a pitcher should pitch summer league is if he needs the work or his draft year.
You are correct after a full summer most of the pitchers take time off fall. The good part of DK not pitching that first summer is that he got to work on improvements on pitches that sophomore fall. Most of the top programs work this philosophy, but IMO every program should do the same.
Most frosh starters on staff begin as relievers, its their way of breaking into the game and build up their innings.
Enjoy!!!
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
That's interesting. I put all the information in an Excel spreadsheet on my "wall" and added sorting.
The highest Pitch Count per Inning (I added this column) was 28.8. over 4.2 innings pitched. I think this pitcher should have been pulled after 2 innings.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by Marklaker:
Unfortunately, high stress innings don’t receive nearly the same scrutiny as overall pitch counts. Likewise, I believe cold weather and early season pitch totals should also be closely monitored.
But why would a young pitcher be in that position to begin with, if he cant get threw an inning with the appropriate amount of acceptable pitches he should not be in it to begin with.
Aside from the fact not every high school pitcher has the luxury of a stellar or in some cases sound defense, even the best have innings where they struggle with their command. In combination, it can take a heavy toll.
TPM, yeah that is what is coming down to supposedly, innings. He is slated at moment as 3rd starter.Tthey said he if he threw how they thought he could, he wouldn't be going to summer team but wanted him to have a slot in case he was moved to closer or other reliever position.
He is going to be in your neck of the woods in last weekend of February. his team is playing at UM
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by chefmike7777:
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise ).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
DK did not pitch the summer after freshman year because of the amount of innings he put in (highest amount for a freshman). That was a decision recommended by pcoach.
IMO the only time a pitcher should pitch summer league is if he needs the work or his draft year.
You are correct after a full summer most of the pitchers take time off fall. The good part of DK not pitching that first summer is that he got to work on improvements on pitches that sophomore fall. Most of the top programs work this philosophy, but IMO every program should do the same.
Most frosh starters on staff begin as relievers, its their way of breaking into the game and build up their innings.
Enjoy!!!
Problem is that the recruiting climate has changed. It's the rare pitcher that can expect to be recruited from only playing in the spring. Which (and not that I'm agreeing with it) might be ab argument for getting rid of high school ball and moving it all to clubs and then trying to limit the season to May - October.
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
Wow, some red flags for Texas Pan-Am and Northern Illinois. Sam Street of Texas PA shows up first and again the next week. He had 15 starts and 11 CG's, most with high counts. And he had a fairly high K count so it's not like he is a control or deception guy.
Anything over 120 shows up on an exception list for D1 college pitchers. What does that tell you about 130 for a freshman in HS?
Originally Posted by JohnF:
My personal favorite is when coaches switch pitcher and catcher 
(OK being really sarcastic here - just for levity)....
People who are anti pitch count invariably bring up baseball history, but conveniently leave out that the game and hitters have changed a lot since then. Were Spahn, Sain, Marichal, Ruth, Young, Mathewson, etc. all pitching since they were 8-9 years old? Were they playing and pitching year round? Were they going into a travel league circuit to pitch games in front of college scouts who had their sundials to get their velo? Or did perhaps they actually grow into their bodies before seriously taking up pitching? (I'm too young to know - hahaha).
I get the whole pitch count argument and believe in it in general. It's a hard subject though because it is different based on development of a child as a pitcher. These are conversations you have to have regularly with your child. Before HS I think it's certainly the parents obligation to talk to whatever coach you have and determine their knowledge and acceptance of pitch counts. Also whether the coach has a love affair with the curve - yes a different rabbit hole we could jump into. Then make decisions whether you want to pay and play for that team. At HS - trust that your child will have taken all the conversations you've had and that he'll talk with the coach. If not, then there are ways to casually talk with the coach about his "pitching or pitcher" theories. Although I suspect most HS coaches come with a bit of history so you should know your answer beforehand. There are parents who decide not to have their child pitch for a specific HS and only go the showcase/travel ball option with a coach they do trust.
In the long run pitching isn't an inherently normal action for your shoulder as I think *any* parent has been told when they invariably take their child in for some sort of injury. Which all too often happens regardless of how you've protected your young pitchers with pitch counts, don't throw curves, eat your veggies, don't swim in the summer before the "big game", etc.
Those old-timers probably did start pitching young and may have pitched MORE than today's youth. However, I would caution against anyone using that to make the argument that the higher pitch counts actually BUILT durability (although I think there is a decent subargument or two that may have merit). I have a theory (and that's all it is since it wouldn't even be possible to find the data I would need to prove it). I think there are those who are genetically able to sustain heavy loads pitching-wise. They aren't as susceptible to arm injuries. In the past, before pitch counts were considered, I think those that were so genetically gifted, survived the gauntlet of youth ball and many got to the majors while many other pitchers "blew out their arms" and were left behind. Today, we pay a lot more attention to a pitchers workload and we baby (and I don't necessarily use the term in a bad way) young arms. So, a lot of hard throwers today make it as far as the pros before they start seeing problems. In the past, these same pitchers might have been done somewhere in their high school years and we'd never hear of them. I think we are seeing the first generation of pitchers who have been under pitch counts since they started. I think a modern focus on pitch counts has led to a lot of guys going farther in their careers.The result is a much deeper pool of hard-throwers.
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Actually, Root, he did express that he was OK with it, at least to some degree, in explaining it away as a very big game, providing some background and expressing some pride in the accomplishment. He was "caught up in the moment". That is understandable and I think we've all been there.
My perception is that Lion has a very talented young player and he is about to get pulled in a million different directions over the next few years. I believe that Lion is a very knowledgeable guy with best interests at heart for his kid and is rightfully proud and excited about his son's skills and accomplishments. I totally agree with you that it can be a struggle to make the decision to question the coach. We see it often here that the excitement and visions of grandeur can somewhat cloud the path of decisions that even the most level-headed parents face regarding talented athlete sons and daughters. When they are at a particularly high point, a gentle nudge or suggestion will rarely have an impact on their thought process. Sometimes, a jolt is the only thing that will do so.
Subsequent posts from Lion support that he has the right mindset regarding arm care and protection but I don't think the observations and comments from others were without merit and hope that he sees the helpful intent behind them from all three parties, myself included.
The other point Coach brought up was to question advising son to lie to or deceive the HC. He finished by emphasizing setting the right example to your child. I certainly support that position as well.
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Actually, Root, he did express that he was OK with it, at least to some degree, in explaining it away as a very big game, providing some background and expressing some pride in the accomplishment. He was "caught up in the moment". That is understandable and I think we've all been there.
My perception is that Lion has a very talented young player and he is about to get pulled in a million different directions over the next few years. I believe that Lion is a very knowledgeable guy with best interests at heart for his kid and is rightfully proud and excited about his son's skills and accomplishments. I totally agree with you that it can be a struggle to make the decision to question the coach. We see it often here that the excitement and visions of grandeur can somewhat cloud the path of decisions that even the most level-headed parents face regarding talented athlete sons and daughters. When they are at a particularly high point, a gentle nudge or suggestion will rarely have an impact on their thought process. Sometimes, a jolt is the only thing that will do so.
Subsequent posts from Lion support that he has the right mindset regarding arm care and protection but I don't think the observations and comments from others were without merit and hope that he sees the helpful intent behind them from all three parties, myself included.
The other point Coach brought up was to question advising son to lie to or deceive the HC. He finished by emphasizing setting the right example to your child. I certainly support that position as well.
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. The first expressed concern that his kid's coach was ignorant concerning pitch counts. The second mentioned that the first time was a big game, but that when he did it a second time it was a sign to him there was a problem. I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
Additionally, I was a little disappointed. I've read literally hundreds of posts from Coach and this is the first time I found a post of his a problem.
I would guess Lion is not the only poster with this problem. There are plenty of parents that come here to share their experiences. Lion,for example knows there's a problem. But it's easy to tell a parent he needs to take up the issue (or have his kid do so) than it is to actually do so. What Lion needed was to be able to rely on the experiences of posters here in finding the solution - not a rebuke.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by JohnF:
<...snip...>
People who are anti pitch count invariably bring up baseball history, but conveniently leave out that the game and hitters have changed a lot since then. Were Spahn, Sain, Marichal, Ruth, Young, Mathewson, etc. all pitching since they were 8-9 years old? Were they playing and pitching year round? Were they going into a travel league circuit to pitch games in front of college scouts who had their sundials to get their velo? Or did perhaps they actually grow into their bodies before seriously taking up pitching? (I'm too young to know - hahaha).
<...snip...>Those old-timers probably did start pitching young and may have pitched MORE than today's youth. However, I would caution against anyone using that to make the argument that the higher pitch counts actually BUILT durability (although I think there is a decent subargument or two that may have merit). I have a theory (and that's all it is since it wouldn't even be possible to find the data I would need to prove it). I think there are those who are genetically able to sustain heavy loads pitching-wise. They aren't as susceptible to arm injuries. In the past, before pitch counts were considered, I think those that were so genetically gifted, survived the gauntlet of youth ball and many got to the majors while many other pitchers "blew out their arms" and were left behind. Today, we pay a lot more attention to a pitchers workload and we baby (and I don't necessarily use the term in a bad way) young arms. So, a lot of hard throwers today make it as far as the pros before they start seeing problems. In the past, these same pitchers might have been done somewhere in their high school years and we'd never hear of them. I think we are seeing the first generation of pitchers who have been under pitch counts since they started. I think a modern focus on pitch counts has led to a lot of guys going farther in their careers.The result is a much deeper pool of hard-throwers.
I'll give you the genetics argument - I think there's merit to that... but...
I have a hard time picturing the old-timer parents jumping into the family SUV to drive somewhere to play in some tournament miles from home... I think we're also talking about the time of trains/buses and not planes... My mental picture is more playing pickup baseball locally in between working odd jobs, hanging out with friends, going to school, playing hookey, fishin', etc. I have a recollection of reading a book about an "old time" pitcher and his workout routine involving baling hay...
The point isn't whether they threw more or less it was how they did it and what else they did... They may have thrown more, but it's all in the effort required and the environment. Growing up they also didn't have to face anyone coming up with today's metal bat technology or today's hitters who spend countless hours in a batting cage with some iron mike tossing them BP.
I'd rather "baby" my child so that he can play catch with his baby some day just like I got the chance to do with my 3 babies. My youngest baby didn't start throwing harder until he started working out with a program designed to help pitchers get bigger, faster, stronger. That's something that pitchers of yesteryear didn't have.
I'm glad JP doesn't pitch.
Root, to back up Cabbage a little here, lion did make several comments that led me to believe he was OK with the pitch counts. It has happened 3 times from what I can tell from his posts:
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
Our high school coach had my son throw 125 pitches and 140 pitches in two separate games.
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
My son was a freshman on Varsity last year. The first game my son pitched a complete game that gave the other team their first regular season loss in 2 years. So pitching 130 pitches was easy to forget.
It was after these comments, with some minimizing about it, that coach responded with a fairly straight forward message. The issue should have been addressed and stopped after the first outing. If it happened again, more stringent measures should have been taken. To have it happen a 3rd time is almost unexcusable as a HS freshman. This situation is asking for trouble. 125, 130 and 140 pitch games as a freshman in HS is not good.
To your point that subsequent comments have been made by lion to show that he is knowledgeable about this issue, you are correct. However, knowing it and doing something about it are two different things. Speak to the coach. Let him know your concerns. If he doesn't like it, it may be time to pull your kid from the team. No matter how talented he is, he will never make it to college if his arm is blown out.
I remember in HS, my son pitched against a kid that threw 140 pitches in 8 innings against my son. There was a pro scout there to see him as well. We all thought that was CRAZY - and he was a senior. Kid didn't go pro, went to a mid-low level D1 and has done OK, but has had some arm problems.
Don't just know about the problem, take action.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Problem is that the recruiting climate has changed. It's the rare pitcher that can expect to be recruited from only playing in the spring. Which (and not that I'm agreeing with it) might be ab argument for getting rid of high school ball and moving it all to clubs and then trying to limit the season to May - October.
Root,
We all come from different climates, I would expect anyone reading would take that into consideration. Where I am from bb is played all year long, always was and will always be. There is a lot to consider if your son is a young pitcher (mine began at 8).
By the way, this is not the first time I have gotten up on my soapbox. I have been here for a very long time and have seen many many post regarding injuries, in fact they made a forum for it.
The pitchers having TJS are from my sons era in proball (2007 until now). They also threw pretty hard, and some have had shoulder issues as well. Conditioning has gotten better and ASMI has helped with better guidelines, but injuries still occur.
Maybe you havent read or understood what I have said. I keep stating keep things to a minimum for YOUTH pitchers because as they get older so will the pitch counts.
I also took Lions post the same as others did. I especially didn't understand why he would have his son give signs to him when he wants out when all he has to do is tell the coach he is done.
Regardless, he is asking a lot of good questions and hope that he is learning from this topic.
That's what we are here for.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
...
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. ...I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
...
Root, I totally get your point. And I did go back and re-re-read. He did lead off with the concerns as you state.
I shouldn't speak for Coach but I suspect he is seeing some of what I am with Lion's posts... around some great info and questions are some comments that perhaps suggest he could still benefit from that jolt to his thought process...
Here is another example (one of his posts)...
"Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health. It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus. 
If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! "
Now, one of the things that grabbed my attention with this - he talks about going to the AD regarding the problem, which is great. But he puts more emphasis on the AD also being the football coach and how he needs to address the problem if he wants his star qb back. Well, thought #1 should be that the AD will address the issue because it is the responsible thing for him to do in the position of AD. (I didn't comment on this initially because I didn't want to "pile on"). I'm pretty sure that one didn't sit well with Coach who is an AD and is/was also a football coach. And I don't even know what to make of the "raping girls on campus" analogy (yes, I get the reference). I know this is, perhaps, reading too much into things and again, there is the emoticon. But when looked at cumulatively, I do see concerns. Now, he could be totally yanking chain and I'm way off base but...
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
...
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. ...I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
...
Root, I totally get your point. And I did go back and re-re-read. He did lead off with the concerns as you state.
I shouldn't speak for Coach but I suspect he is seeing some of what I am with Lion's posts... around some great info and questions are some comments that perhaps suggest he could benefit from that jolt to his thought process...
Here is another example (one of his posts)...
"Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health. It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus.
If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! "
Now, one of the things that grabbed my attention with this - he talks about going to the AD regarding the problem, which is great. But he puts more emphasis on the AD also being the football coach and how he needs to address the problem if he wants his star qb back. Well, thought #1 should be that the AD will address the issue because it is the responsible thing for him to do in the position of AD. (I didn't comment on this initially because I didn't want to "pile on"). I'm pretty sure that one didn't sit well with Coach who is an AD and is/was also a football coach. And I don't even know what to make of the "raping girls on campus" analogy (yes, I get the reference). I know this is, perhaps, reading too much into things and again, there is the emoticon. But when looked at cumulatively, I do see concerns. Now, he could be totally yanking chain and I'm way off base but...
I missed that comment about the "crab legs, and raping girls" and this style seems kind of familiar, not just to me, I'll bet.
Whether you want to think of baseball as a "May to September" sport or not... it's started. Today was officially the first day of practice around here... Our baseball teams practiced (in shifts) for about 5 hours today on the field..