Playing Assignments - Changing Position

As a freshman you don't know where you're kids future is in baseball. I would let it play out. I know one guy who went to a JC as a catcher and is now a AA pitcher.

quote:

for the teams sake

Yep,..thats the priority, now.

quote:

I want him to catch.

Yep, I can understand that you probably do, BUT again, unless you are the coach, in my opinion, son needs to go where the team needs him most.

My son was a catcher also, all the way up til' highschool.
( I too wanted him to be a catcher. I thought he was pretty darn tootin' good, had potential, and not to mention the gear we had invested in cost us an arm and a leg!-ha! )

HS coaches made him a SS his freshman year.
That's the way the cookie crumbled.
It took some time, but I soon realized that I had ALOT to learn.
First point being, I needed to stand back and let the coach,..... coach.

To this day, I STILL think he'd make a great catcher, ...although the college recruiters think otherwise and are looking at him as a MI.
Shows how much I know.

No complaints. No regrets. Wouldn't change it for the world.
Sometimes ya just gotta get some milk to go with those crumbs, sit back, and let the games roll.

It's about the team and the needs of the team, now.

Ya might be pleasantly suprised how things work out!
The very best to your son,...your family, and his team!

...and welcome to the HSBBW!!

How does the player feel about it?

That is what counts, not what the parents want

quote:

Originally posted by 4290:
I want him to catch. What do I do...should I just let go? I spent I lot of time and money developing as a catcher....

Sorry, it's not about what YOU want anymore.

The time and money you put in should have been because you enjoyed doing so. From this point forward, it's about the team. No coach cares about how much you spent and I say that because it is the honest truth.

Why would you be so unhappy, pitchers get more attention, better opportunities. Not all players can be pitchers, but all pitchers can be players. Think about that one!
Let go.

Just be careful, he should do one of the other, JMO.



JMO.

I would let it go. If your son's team is anything like the one my son was on last year, your son will end up catching on days he's not pitching. Even if you son does not catch much on the high school team, there is still the summer team.

On the HS team the player plays where the coach needs him. If that isn't the best fit for his abilities then he will eventually need to do other things during summer ball, etc.

The one thing I'd caution parents about is if your son is being made into a 1st baseman. There are always exceptions, but that tends to be a dead end for right handers unless they are big, slow running, power hitters, with relatively weak arms.

Still nothing you can do about it in HS but if your son is stuck at 1st and doesn't fit the profile then you need to make sure he plays other positions in summer ball and at showcases and camps.

I can't help but reply CADAD. My kid is going to play first this year for the first time ever as a senior in H.S. even though he has a scholarship to college to play center and pitch. He is going to do it with good humor even though he knows he is by far the best fielder at any position on the team,really fast, not 6 feet and has a ridiculously strong arm. I believe the coach thinks he is still a relatively slow 7th grader and no one ever changes after the 7th grade, or he is just dissing him again in any way he can. It's a really bizarre situation but it's going to be a really funny year, can't wait for it to start.
In general I would say you are right about 1st base, lefty's get the nod, or big dudes, and if you are neither the coach is doing you no favor. If my kid did not already have a scholly, I probably would not be so good tempered, nor would my kid.

smalltown,
Your son's HS coach may have put him at first for a reason. What is the matter with first base anyway? Actually the best place for a pitcher is at first base. I am assuming he gets to hit? He's a signed senior, maybe teh coach is helping others get noticed (hey just sticking up for the HS coach who might be helping in recruiting).

Perfect examples of why playing outside of hS is so important.

At this time of year before season, I don't think much is etched in stone, coaches have to figure out where players work best, that happens on the college level as well.

smalltown, my 2008 son is sort of in the same position as your son this year. Last year as a Junior he made All-Area as our starting 3B. He signed his NLI last December to be a P & 3B. This year the head coach has him playing 1B. He's one of the 2 tallest kids on the team and is a righty. Does he care? Heck no. He is a ball hog and loves to play where the action is, plus, he's doing it for the team cause quite honestly that's where they need him.

Awesome, the dude is not alone in this. Had he not signed though I know he would have preferred a position that he might play at the next level. As it is it's just more variety. He would help the team more elswehere no doubt, they have a 6-5 slow guy who will play the outfield this year

I will vote with the "let it go" crowd. Here is my anecdote. Through LL my son was the big, slightly chunky guy that could hit the ball a long ways. He was reasonably fast for a big guy, but first base was his spot through eighth grade and he usually migrated to the middle of the order (4-5-6). He then turned out to be 5'11'' and 170 lbs as he matured. He could still hit the ball out there but he developed into a fast runner. In other words, he turned out to look like an outfielder (he wasn't really the middle infielder type defensively, which his size would also be OK for). He played Senior Legion as a 15-year old and that coach used him at 2B and the outfield. He still played a lot of first. In his sophomore year, he went to a neighboring town to play on a team for summer ball (Senior Little League). My son had no prior baggage with this coach about where he should play. The coach had plenty of first basemen. This coach batted him lead-off and made him the starting CF. The coach also let him pitch complete games (and he did well) as well as close several games (which went well, too). This opened lots of possibilites. Son still played 1B alot in HS ball last year, but played primarily OF in Legion. He still pitches some. He is expected to play OF in college and has a scholarship for that purpose. So, it worked out well in our case to just let the coaches figure it out according to team needs. My son enjoyed the variety and has played everywhere in the last four years except SS (I think he played an inning there, too).

My opinion on this one has to do with the level of player we are talking about. If moderately good putting him at a position needed by the coach for team sake is not a tremendous sacrifice. But if a player comes up as a catcher or a pitcher and is A1 level the coach would not get my support on that one.

By the time your player reaches hs as a A1 level player he should have skills that pretty much will help the team in the position he is A1 at. Changing a player to offset a coach's lack of desire to do some real teaching of a moderately good player and bring him up a level where he can help the team just gives the coach to be lazy and a reason to ruin your son.

This is a tough decision especially if the hs situation has no affiliation with the summer baseball programs. The reason I say that is because most hs bb coaches will be aware of your son coming up from the Senior LL ranks if he has an established reputation.

I would not cede to this one automatically without having a conversation with your son about his feelings about it. This coach could be planting seeds of discontent that could go directly to how your son feels about bb in the future.

But most of all do what's best for your son.

LL - That is a good point. My son's situation was a little different in that his trained position likely was a dead end for him in college. So, what the coaches were seeing for him was a better fit for him long term. I have talked to his HS head coach (I am an assistant) to let him know that we won't be insulted if there is someone else that can play first (his position last year). This will allow my son to play OF where he likely will be spending more innings in the future. I don't know if the original poster's son is going through a situation where the coaches are seeing something better for the player or if it is just a team-needs-him thing. I guess I have seen both happen.

A player plays where the coach feels he helps the team most, not where the dad wants him to play. Any position on the field is a priviledge to play, especially as a freshman. The positions on the field are better than the positions on the bench or JV or freshman team.

quote:

most hs bb coaches will be aware of your son coming up from the Senior LL ranks if he has an established reputation.

I would not cede to this one automatically without having a conversation with your son about his feelings about it. This coach could be planting seeds of discontent that could go directly to how your son feels about bb in the future.

LLorton - are you serious with these two statements?

First about the reputation one. No real coach of any level could care about the reputation of a kid coming up. I am going to put these kids in positions that I think will help them AND help the team.

Two stories real quickly - 1) I had a kid tell me he was going to play shortstop at the University of Kentucky and spent a lot of money training for that. He was nowhere near good enough and I told him that. I said he would be a secondbaseman or outfielder in college. Based on what the team needed he did play some shortstop and did fine but the majority of his playing time came at 2B and OF. Amazingly he got cut by UK and went to a JUCO and they played him at 2B and OF.

I knew what the kid's reputation was about being and wanting to be a shortstop. I didn't care. I judged his talent and what the team needed. I felt I put him in a position to succeed personally and help the team.

2) I had a kid who came up as a 2B and could flat out fly with pretty good glove. I moved him in his freshman year to the OF to turn him loose to catch balls. I got a nice anonymous letter stating how I was completely wrong and stupid for moving him there. I would be losing out on what would be one of my greatest infielders to ever come through my program.

He is now in college as an outfielder on scholarship and he didn't stand a snowballs chance in a microwave beating out the kid who did play 2B.

Most coaches would do these things - not all but most.

As for the planting a seed of discontent are you saying this coach might be wanting your son to quit playing baseball? I highly doubt this either. That is silly.

Look it doesn't matter what level it is - Little League, Babe Ruth, Travel Ball, Select Ball, High School, College, Minor League or Major League - go to the position that helps the team. The team is what's important. If you want to try and go to the next level at another position then work on it on your own time and go to showcases and camps to show the skills.

The more positions you can play the more valuable you become.

Since he moved from SS/P in youth/travel due to growth-related overuse injuries (throwing too much, not weightlifting) 2B has become quite comfortable at, well, 2B.

I had a bad day yesterday and did something I almost never do, and for which having a bad day is no excuse. I griped at our coach for charging 2B with an error for a line drive that he jumped up for and it deflected off his glove.

Coach told me quite directly that he expected 2B to get those. 2B agreed that he should have had it.

Then Coach informed me that he was moving 2B to SS. That's where the team needs him.

Boy, don't I feel like an idiot. From now on, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

coach2709 with all due respect to your freedom to do as you see fit with your team, it is apparent you either misunderstood my post or simply took offense that I would have the audacity to question wisdom of taking an 7-7 level catcher, or 7-7 level pitcher for their age group, and turn them into INFer.

My background is not important but let me say that more young ball players are ruined by coaching egoes then any other reason for kids not making it in this game.

I have watched many kids where parents have spent boocoo dollars having their son's evaluated and trained by pro coaches who played the position they coach doing private tutoring to help young ball players with their mechanics and skills, only to have some feather-burned wonder in a hs take the kid and try to undo all the work that kid has being doing with professionals.

This is the fly in the ointment sort-a-speak for hs coaches and believe me I have seeing this chip on the shoulder impact many players, and attested to here in post from parents who scratch their heads wondering why they went through all the trouble and spent all that money for use with a travel ball club service, or hired a professional to work with their kid only to have a hs school coach squash he kids and parents dreams for their son to play at the next level.

But if you think taking a kid who can throw strikes at mid to high 80's mph with a great curve ball that gets batters out and has been pitching or catching since they were 8 y/o is better for your team at 2B, don't let me stop you...
JMO

LL,
Are you saying that the dad has a right to be upset that his son is going to be used as a pitcher and not catcher after spending so much $$ for him to be a catcher?

If that is true I know a lot of position players who were converted to pitchers and did much better as pitchers than at their positions. The one thing I have always understood throughout the journey, if a team needs pitching and you can help teh team, you are a pitcher.

But that makes sense right. Doesn't make sense to move a pitcher to the OF or 2B, I am not sure where you got that one from.

I am wondering how many players who want to go play the college game realize that good pitchers are recruited first and get more scholarship dollars over any other position?

quote:

Boy, don't I feel like an idiot. From now on, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Bonus points for understanding this. Some don't .

LL,

If I have a kid who is a tremendous catcher - your 7-7 catcher - he will probably be the best athlete on my team. I could probably put him at any position and there is a good chance he will be very successful at any position I put him at.

Now let's say on my team I got another catcher who is pretty good and could play small college ball but probably never steps foot on the field if I keep the 7-7 catcher behind the plate. Now the backup catcher isn't as athletic and I really can't move him but I have a huge hole at 3B.

Wouldn't it make sense for the team to move the 7-7 catcher to third and play the pretty good backup catcher? Doesn't that give the team the best chance of succeeding?

Or would you rather I focus on the 7-7 catcher and help him out while not only does the backup catcher takes a severe hit at his chance at playing small college baseball but the team probably will lose several games because I don't have the best possible players on the field.

Which is more fair for ALL players on the team? If I have to worry about making one kid happy by playing him at "his" position when he can help the team out then I am going to make the move.

I have just as much responsibility to the 9th grade kid who probably won't step foot on the field that season to make the team successful for him just like I have the responsibility to help the 7-7 catcher become successful in the team setting.

If that means I have an ego then I have an ego and I don't apologize for it.

Just because a parent pays boocoo dollars for instruction mean they are getting better instruction than the high school coach who works with the kid for free. Just because you pay a lot of money mean it's the best.

TPM a father has the right to be angry or question it with his son...but, may not have any say about any decisions of a coach. Depends on the type of style and methods that a coach uses. At the hs level you can find a father as an assistant where as in college that would be rare as we know.

I offer the Pro Scout Rating System which defines the level criteria of what pro scouts look for in a ball player. Using the proper formula each of these ratings can be normalized for each age grouping what should be expected for lower and upper performance categories.

First day of practice this handout is given to all ball players and their parents. Why? So everyone knows the system that they are being graded against. Would you do any different if you were running a school? Everyone knows what an A is as well as an F.

A coach is a teacher and an instructor. The approach of truncating the knowledge, experience and familiarity of a players comfort with a particular position without first assessing how that player measures out against the required norms for the age group in the upper categories is not in keeping with getting the most out of your players, and not considering how it might effect him psychologically could get you the complete opposite of what a coach may be trying to accomplish.

Quite frankly, in all my years playing and coaching with baseball teams not once did I see the pro rating gradient used to assess the potential of a ballplayer at the hs level. It was usually by the seat-of-the-pants, and we all know how that smells.

There are reasons some coaches are successful and why so many are unsuccessful, and it usually gets down to their ability to assess and train talent.
JMO

quote:

A coach is a teacher and an instructor. The approach of truncating the knowledge, experience and familiarity of a players comfort with a particular position without first assessing how that player measures out against the required norms for the age group in the upper categories is not in keeping with getting the most out of your players, and not considering how it might effect him psychologically could get you the complete opposite of what a coach may be trying to accomplish.

Quite frankly, in all my years playing and coaching with baseball teams not once did I see the pro rating gradient used to assess the potential of a ballplayer at the hs level. It was usually by the seat-of-the-pants, and we all know how that smells.

If a player is affected negatively psychologically by being moved to another position then we are PROBABLY looking at either a selfish player who doesn't care about the team OR a very weak minded player who will usually choke in big game situations. And both of these are usually created by the parents.

I don't use the pro scout rating system because I am not comparing my players to the entire nation to find my best 1B. I am going to look amongst my 30 or so players to find my best 1B.

Coach2709 let it be far from me to to tell you what you might do. However I would set up an A Team/B Team battery component for the team as starters, first-out-of-the-bullpen relievers or set-up, closer and mop up,etc.

Your second less athletic, 7-7 would not be a 7-7 with me because of his lack of foot speed...and therefore would be counseled by me how he would be my late inning catcher and comein with the relievers and would be my bullpen captain. But then I would take the time to teach him how to properly zero in my pitchers in the bullpen so my pitchers coming out to the mound would be in the properly synch'ed-up.

I would assess the next best bat probably best hand-eye coordination skills with great reaction in short spurt moives as a 3B. Would work him specifically with 3B - 1B drills.
JMO

LL,

What????? Do you actually coach any kind of team?

Have you coached high school ball in a small rural area where your choices are limited?

Have you coached high school ball where no matter what your try with a kid doesn't honestly make them any better?

High school baseball is a little more different than select, travel or any of these other "all star" baseball teams. I don't just get to pick and choose from studs and it's like this at the vast majority of high schools.

I can work my rear end off to put the 9 best players out there but there will be some years I might just have a hole.

Coach2709 you're right coach I don't know your circumstances and it is not my place to question your methods or your experiences.

I voice my opinions as anyone one else here but respect is required to offer reasoned debate.

I wish you the best this season and hope your team does very well.

Goodluck

4290

i would never tell a coach where to play my son. that said i would step in if he wanted him to pitch AND catch. think of his arm.

LL
unless your team is full of seniors why would you use an mlb grading system? maybe you ment something similar? or adapt it somehow to a hs soph?

I think that to use any sort of grading system when putting together a HS team is ludicrous---I agree with coach in that he is looking for the best 9 start and next best group to fill out the roster.

For the parents ---wait until your son gets to the college level---he may be a SS in HS on his team but me may play 2nd in college or if he has exceptional speed he may be moved to CF if they have another good SS

Even on our travel team we move players to other positions---we like our outfielders if at all possible to get time at all three OF positions because it not only helps our team but will help them at the next a level---an OF who can play all three positions at the college level is a major plus.


One last thing--keep in mind many kids who are excellent athletes/baseball players at the HS level are actually playing out of position with regard to their best personal position --they are playing where it helps the team the most

Example one. At my son's future HS they have a very, and I mean very talented freshman that is starting varsity. He was told to work on second base going into the season. One week in, the third baseman got injured and is out for the year and he was switched to that position. One week before the season started on Wed the starting SS came down with mono and is out for 2-3 weeks.
He is now the starting SS for now and will go to third when the starter gets back.

Always remember to take all of your skills with you when you walk on to the field.

You never know.

20dad, TRhit, Doughnutman

If you're satisfied with the outcomes of your seasons based upon the goals you set for your selves no one will fault you for your position.

It just is my opinion that setting proper goals should be part of the hs baseball experience and that means it is time to recognize as a coach that you are dealing ith players, many of whom have been working their hearts out to stay on a path that will lead them to reaching the next level.

To ignore that the baseline for proper goal setting is the numbers that get a player to the qualities and skills amd thus the qualifications to be looked at and considered a standpout prospect seems to me to miss the whole purpose of the exercise.

From hs on most players are thinking about the possibility of playing in the Minors or at least making it to the JUCO level. But to keep the information from them of what the pro scouts are looking for in a ball player to my way of thinking is like telling a kid he is working in hs to graduate from college and then not giving the benefit of what he needs to achieve the goal based upon the established minimums.

As for players being taken from their natural positions and used in a position that a coach thinks is better for his team...makes me think that he has no respect for any of the other coaches that worked with the player, nor all the work that went into that player and doesn't know how to leverage that player or the skills he brings to the game.
JMO

There is a recent article in Baseball America of a player who was recruited as a shortstop but never saw the field as a shortstop when he got to college:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/college/season-preview/2008/265642.html

LL


First of all I am more concerned with my players getting into college---if a pro situation happens so be it and God bless the boy

By the way a kid who is being looked at by the pros doesn't need me to tell him what he needs to do talent wise---God has given him that talent

Just pass the line up card out to the parents and let them decide where their kids are going to play. If you have five ss just rotate them. We all know that as a freshman its very important that the kid play where the parent feels he should play. We do not want to do anything that is going to hinder the players development in the parents eyes. What is best for the team must take a back seat to what the parent feels is best for their child. When are you people going to learn?

When these 7-7 players or A1 players reach college you can make sure that you get this in writing as well from his college coach. If they will not agree to it then do not sign with this school. Keep searching until you find one that will agree to your terms for your child. Let me know when you find this program.

TRhit

Every coach has his own methods...some would do more then others with the same player and that's what makes some programs more attractive to a player then ones that are not in very high demand.
JMO

HS coaching and HS programs. They get way too much credit for developing players that have alot of success in the game. And they get way too much credit for not developing players that do not have the internal drive and work ethic to excell at the game.

HS baseball is 4/12. That leaves 8 months of the year that the player can be working on becoming the best he can be outside of the HS season. If your banking on that 3 months to make or break you , you are totally out of touch with reality.

When a player comes into a hs program and he is an outstanding SS thats great. But what if your JR SS is an all state stud that the freshman can not beat out? Do you leave him on the JV so he can play SS even though he could be your starting CF on the varsity? NO! You play him where he will help your team win. He has 8 other months in the year he can continue to play and work at the SS posistion.

Your a baseball player first. You play where you give your team the best chance to win. If you are more concerned with where you play than how you can help your team win that tells me all I need to know. And if the parent feels this way that tells me all I need to know about them as well. Be a baseball player. The rest will take care of itself if you are.

Honestly I find it amazing what some people actually believe. Some of the posts on this site are simply amazing to me. I will not go off to the hs season for a few months and back to reality. This place has become fantasy world. Talk to you guys in a few months.

Give me the kid who says "It matters not where I play in the field, coach. Just tell me where I hit in the lineup".

The sooner the Parent figure's out, They have no control. Period.
The better for the player.

As a parent, you guide, motivate, inspire. ECT.
You do not dictate.
The player must learn to play thru the adversity.
Work harder then the next player.
Make it impossible for the coach to take you out of the game.

Righty's and Lefty's are totally different.
Lefty's have 3 position's they can play? LHP,1st,OF. Thats it.
Learn to play them all.

Righty's should learn to play all position's when growing up.
You just never know were you'll end up playing.
Whatever help's the team the most.
EH

quote:

Honestly I find it amazing what some people actually believe. Some of the posts on this site are simply amazing to me. I will not go off to the hs season for a few months and back to reality. This place has become fantasy world. Talk to you guys in a few months.

And that goes for both coaches and parents right coach?

quote:

From hs on most players are thinking about the possibility of playing in the Minors or at least making it to the JUCO level. But to keep the information from them of what the pro scouts are looking for in a ball player to my way of thinking is like telling a kid he is working in hs to graduate from college and then not giving the benefit of what he needs to achieve the goal based upon the established minimums.

As for players being taken from their natural positions and used in a position that a coach thinks is better for his team...makes me think that he has no respect for any of the other coaches that worked with the player, nor all the work that went into that player and doesn't know how to leverage that player or the skills he brings to the game.

Just because I don't use the pro rating system doesn't mean I don't tell my guys what they need to do to get to the next level. Let's face it - I am going to have guys who have the talent to play small college - NAIA or D3. I might, and I stress might, get a handful of major D1 talent and let's not even think about drafted players.

Over the years I have taken a team who got embarassed by our regional opponents to where we are finally ready to start beating them. I am placing guys in small colleges but I still have a long way to go. Why grade these kids at the pro rateings? Even a scaled down version? It doesn't make sense and that is not fair to the kids.

We don't have a conspiracy to keep information away from our players. We want to help them get to the next level. It happens to be one of our goals for our players. We are not cheating them - we are helping them.

I could care less what the private coach feels about my playing so and so somewhere. I hope they are teaching him things that will help him make our team better. And I am sure if you ask them they could care less where they play as long as they keep getting paid. If the check clears they will keep teaching the kid whatever he wants to be taught. Doesn't make it wrong because it is a business - plain and simple.

Also, if it is a natural position according to you why did the kid have to get all these years of training to be "natural"? Natural position means he can put a glove on and be one of the better players at that position.

LL, you are a selfish person and don't care about the team. Your posts in this thread illustrate that. I would think it's a safe bet that you want your son to go to 4 - 4 with 3 RBI's and his team lose 15 - 3. Using my earlier example of the 7-7 catcher being moved with the back up playing I would bet you think it's ok for your son to be the catcher (I have no idea what position your son plays) who doesn't move while there is a big gaping hole at 3B which causes your son's team to lose 15 games.

People like you are destroying team sports.

What option does a player have?
If he only know's how to play 1 position.
College's are full of ex. SS.

The Coach make's the decision, And the player live's with that decision are get's better and beats the other player's out.
Play were you help the team the most.

Coaches play favorite's??

So what.

You can only control yourself.
And the player Must do thing's on there own to get better.
Cut the Cord people.
EH