Poll - Trout, Cabrera or other for AL MVP

quote:

What does the Hall of Fame have to do with the MVP Award?

Your argument holds no water whatsoever. There is no connection.

No connection at all but it's an achievement status. Which you rather have, to be in Hall of fame or be mvp for one year. It's about achievement and recognition by peers. If a triple crown achievement requires a Hall of Famer to achieve that, then it says something about the triple crown. If it takes 45 years for the next future Hall of Famer to get the triple crown, that itself is a great achievement. I'm a Giants and A's fan (yes keep the charm going today), however much I don't like the Tigers, I have to give respect where is due, Cabrera, Prince F. and Verlander are a potent combination. And they are still playing in October. Each time when it's the two big guys' turn to come to bat, I would tell myself as a fan, don't make stupid errors now, don't hang the ball. It is even worse if there is a guy already on base when Cabrera is at bat and Prince F. is on deck. A's is an underdog, just look at the A's payroll versus Tigers' payroll. But A's have the heart and passion to win, and they will get the job done today. Yes, Cabrera and Prince F. are not exactly the sporty 4-sport type of guy you found in HS. They are slow and lumber thru the bases. Does it matters if they are good in what they do, ie. hitting the baseball? I believe each of them get over $200 millions in contract (need to verify this) and tell that to the Detroit managers that they are insane.

Cabrera is the 2012 "Player of the Year." Selected by his professional baseball playing peers.

Hmmm, they obviously haven't read many of the posts in our thread. Nor, do they understand the absoluteness of modern saber metrics. Dumb Jocks!

^Players also voted Bill Belichick the 2nd most overrated coach in the NFL.

But yeah, players know everything.

quote:

Cabrera is the 2012 "Player of the Year." Selected by his professional baseball playing peers.

Hmmm, they obviously haven't read many of the posts in our thread. Nor, do they understand the absoluteness of modern saber metrics. Dumb Jocks!

Last time I checked it wasn't the responsibility of the players to put together a winning product on the field. Their responsibility is to just play. The front office evaluates and makes decisions.

Most of those players will be giving hitting instructions to ten year olds after they're retired! The rare ones who understand sabermetrics will be running ML teams and be in upper management.

Three Bagger- Its not just understanding sabermetrics. Most people I know could understand sabermetrics if they were taught how to...its not that entirely difficult. Understanding how to apply each metric combined with "traditional" baseball knowledge is what separates those unique individuals.

If I'm in a front office, I look to players to provide insight about a player's work ethic, clubhouse personality, leadership qualities, etc. His skill level is something I would feel confident enough in myself and my peers to evaluate, especially when it comes to such talented players as the ones being discussed in this forum. There are certainly intangibles involved in baseball that are analyzed in so many different ways. Each and every aspect should be, and is, accounted for.

As for the MVP, I stand by my opinion. Mike Trout was the most valuable player in the American League this year.

Although I do have a pretty strong feeling that Miggy will hoist the award next week when its announced.

Yes, I agree Cabrera is going to win the MVP. Cabrera's bat is so valuable everyone ignores every other aspect of his game which is played at a lower level than hundreds of minor and ML players but oh well.

This link here doesn't even get into the in depth analysis like many do (or should do). But it is nonetheless a good, and extremely easy to understand, analysis of just how valuable Trout was, and just how much more valuable than Cabrera he was.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play....book_embedded_player

Cabrera will most likely win the MVP this year, because there are those in the BBWAA that dismiss statistical analysis in the same light that many posters here do (the fact that the BBWAA holds the voting rights is a pretty ridiculous aspect to the MVP voting as well, in my opinion, and largely discredits the validity). But until I hear another argument that differs from "Cabrera is the best hitter" and "Cabrera won the Triple Crown", I will not stop discrediting those opinions. Because quite frankly, and this may come off as very brash, those are very ignorant reasons to formulate such an opinion.

I'm a pretty confident person and I don't know too many things I've been more confident with than to say that Mike Trout was infinitely more valuable in 2012 than Miguel Cabrera was, and that it really is not even close enough for an argument. Its disappointing to me that the reverse opinion will most likely prevail, because to me that just means the game of baseball still has a lot of work to do in educating people about what's truly important to the valuation of a player.

cabrera gets MVP trout gets ROOKIE OFTHE YEAR

I think that's the order it should be. It's hard to discredit the mlb players who as a group voted for Cabrera. Unless may be someone should educate the mlb players how to play the game and how to value and appreciate the game of baseball. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, fine. But to ignore or to discredit the very mlb players we or our children aspire to be is doing ourselves a disservice and showing disrespect to baseball. Hope some of the mlb players read this board and have a great laugh out of it.

bball123- I did not discredit the opinions of MLB players. In fact, in my post above, I mentioned that I believe players' opinions are very important for overall valuation of a player, including his work ethic, clubhouse presence and leadership qualities. As a front office executive, those would be extremely crucial aspects to a player's overall ability to help my team and I would certainly take them into account.

I'd be curious to know the basis by which the MLB players chose Cabrera. They saw him as the most valuable player in the league this year...why? Why do they feel that way?

I respect the opinion of the players a whole lot more than I respect the opinion of the sportswriters. But in the end, neither of those demographics make the decisions for the team. The front office personnel does. And the front office personnel would be prohibiting themselves greatly if they didn't look at the whole picture. The whole picture, when analyzing everything, tells a pretty obvious story- that Mike Trout is the MVP this year, for all the reasons that have been mentioned on this thread previously.

If an MLB player reads this forum I hope they post and provide some insight about how they feel and good, logical reasoning as to why they feel this way. As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I believe that all opinions should be formulated using good reasoning...not just in the case of baseball, but in all aspects of life.

AHYES



but whose team made it to the world series

JH ask fielder and delmon young

quote:

but whose team made it to the world series

Irrelevant. MVP is voted on by regular season performance only. The Angels played a tougher schedule AND had a better record than the Tigers this season. Since Mike Trout was called up on April 26, the Angels had the best record in baseball.

Not that team W-L matters for MVP, because it doesn't...or at least it shouldn't. Its not one player's fault that the other 24 guys on his team didn't perform up to par.

Delmon Young had a subpar year that was below almost every statistical average he's put up throughout his entire career.

Prince Fielder put up numbers that are very much in line with his production throughout his career. Not better, not worse. An average Prince year.

doo not agree with you


MVP shouldgo the player who helps his team the most

I agree completely. Which, as evidenced by numerous statistical analyses, is Mike Trout.

JH forget the stat analysis----whose team went to the world series

quote:

Irrelevant. MVP is voted on by regular season performance only. The Angels played a tougher schedule AND had a better record than the Tigers this season. Since Mike Trout was called up on April 26, the Angels had the best record in baseball.

Not that team W-L matters for MVP, because it doesn't...or at least it shouldn't. Its not one player's fault that the other 24 guys on his team didn't perform up to par.

I would imagine that the players base their vote on respect for certain individuals. For example... Would MLB pitchers vote for Trout or Cabrerra? My guess is they would vote for the guy they least want to face at the plate in a crucial situation. Seeing that MLB pitchers account for about half the rosters they pretty much as a group decide the results.

Mike Trout's numbers might be better overall, but would MLB pitchers rather throw to Trout or Cabrerra? Who do you think they would rather have at the plate? I doubt they consider defense and base stealing all that much when they are asked this question. I doubt if they considered it much when they voted.

I have to agree with JH regarding the writers... or at least most of the writers. I was pulling for Mike Trout, but I'm fine with Cabrerra being the MVP. He had a great year!

One advantage Cabrerra had was that his own teammates really pumped him up as the best player in the game and the MVP. I don't recall that happening with Trout and the Angels or maybe I missed it. When people like Velrlander are calling Cabrerra the best player in baseball, I imagine it has an impact on the voting. Then you add the triple crown, first time in how long?

PGStaff, excellent post. Who would you rather face, great question, very simple question but very deep implication.

Quick often, people throw statistics to you but don't know how and the limitation of a set of stat. It's funny that all the laymen believe in stat mindlessly except the statistician. The statistician knows that stat can lie if you manipulate it enough. I love math myself but I hate if people tell me a stat and expect me to take it at face value. Show me the math, show me the formulation, show me the model, and most importantly, show me the prediction, to the past(to fit the model) and to the future. Nobody here has shown me how many walk-off HR is equivalent to a grand-slam, how many strike-outs is equivalent to a base steal, and etc.. How do we compare? What basis? What weights? How do we computerize the weights, basis, into the computer?

Now we are degenerating into discrediting the mlb players, incredible and unbelievable!

and a players vaolue does not always show up in the stats

TR, that's correct. Not everything is covered in stat.

If the criteria is which player is the most valuable to the team, I will vote for Posey. Without Posey, there is no World Series title for the Giants. Just ask anyone in the Giants clubhouse.

I am a bit biased but my observation is that Trout will get ROY but not MVP.

One thing I find very revealing is the question asked by PG. Asking a hitter or a pitcher, who would you NOT want to face in a crucial situation tells me that person they name has more respect from his peers.

Also I agree about Cabrerra's teammates pumping him up. I don't see Trouts teammates really being excited about a rookie winning MVP or anyone's teammates for that matter. The old philosophy still exists, you work your way towards these awards and for sure MC has put in his time.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:

If the criteria is which player is the most valuable to the team, I will vote for Posey. Without Posey, there is no World Series title for the Giants. Just ask anyone in the Giants clubhouse.

That's NL.

posey is in the national league

Alright, Posey for MVP and Bochy for Manager of the Year.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:
Alright, Posey for MVP and Bochy for Manager of the Year.

And your vote for AL is ............

I buy that

Cabrera and Leyland(?) for other...

For those who are old enough and follow the NBA would know Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson. Then came the smart alec Detroit Piston, one of the player said something to the effect that if Bird is black, he would have been just a ordinary player (would not be as famous) and Isiah Thomas agreed to the comment, which was made in the locker room. Magic came into the defense of Bird and Isiah ended up apologizing in a press conference. Moral of the story, just because Bird did not have the flair, stat, athleticism, of a typical self-indulgent player did not made him a lesser player. Magic's defense of Bird was classic.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:
Cabrera and Leyland(?) for other...

The 3 AL managers up for consideration are Robin Ventura, Bob Melvin and Buck Showalter.

Now the MVP arguement for Cabrera has switched to intangibles like pitchers would rather face Trout than Cabrera when if this was true it would be reflected by the one stat that shows which batters are most feared and that is walk totals. Well let's see who walked more. Oh, wait, it's Trout again in some sixty less plate appearances he walked more when you would think that'sthe last thing pitchers would want to do with his speed. So apparently pitcher's FEAR Trout more according to the only way that can be measured.

bball123, you act like JH is showing you some abstract thought that can't be quantified and shows nothing when really the only arguement that shows lack of understanding or thought is your own. You say show you the math, well quit being lazy and read the links JH has posted and you might be able to understand some of the numbers. Most people who don't accept the new ways of figuring value haven't bothered to try to understand the formulas because they are lazy in my opinion. It's been a long time since a Triple Crown. Now that argument really shows player value. Statements like " how many strike-outs are equivilent to a base steal" quite frankly make me think you know very little about statistics in general so it's quite natural that you would think that RBI's and batting average are still the best way to quantify player value. I am not accusing you of not being intelligent, it's just that you need to get with the times or I guarentee you will be left behind in the next decade.

This kind of thinking is why the Juan Gonzalez's, Jeff Burrough's and Justin Morneau's win MVP's when they aren't even the most valuable player on their team.

I also have a problem with the concept that now Cabrera is this great team leader when the last time I looked he was drunker than a skunk when his team needed him only a few years ago. I think the abstract concept of value in the clubhouse is overrated and it's his RBI's and HR's that make him seem like a leader when its always some scrub on the bench who become the leaders in baseball. That's why stars don't generally make the best managers. When they put that bat down or it fades with time, their leadership ability seems to disappear too.

walks are not a true barometer-----some hitters are free swingers and do not look for walks

quote:

bball123, you act like JH is showing you some abstract thought that can't be quantified and shows nothing when really the only arguement that shows lack of understanding or thought is your own.

Since you are the expert, would you mind telling how many strike out is equivalent to a base steal? Else how can we compare pitcher to base stealer? What you are doing is hiding behind all the complexes and don't know how to answer some simple questions. When I raise the issue the very first time, I was told the system is a framework, not weighted stats. Then later, I was told indeed, it's weighted stats. Please answer simple questions instead of hiding behind the big piece of cloth. If I have a reliever pitcher, a pinch runner and a pinch hitter, how do you compare them? A strike for a steal? Two hits for a strike? How about walk off HR to striking on the side, what is the ratio and weights? How many past balls is equal to a dropped fly-ball? A sliding catch versus a Willie May's catch, what are the weights? Curve ball HR versus slider HR versus fastball HR, what are the weights?

quote:

Now the MVP arguement for Cabrera has switched to intangibles like pitchers would rather face Trout than Cabrera when if this was true it would be reflected by the one stat that shows which batters are most feared and that is walk totals. Well let's see who walked more

That's just a speculation on our part here in this message board. Nobody knows what the MLB players were thinking when they vote. But for sure, I trust them more than I trust you when come to evaluating baseball.

I am a strong supporter of the youth movement in baseball and I would like to see Trout get the honor, but I would be surprised if it happened but be supportive non the less.
About Cabrera's problem with alcohol, unless you know the exact facts, it's hard to understand. Getting him out of Miami was the best thing for him.
I don't know his role in the clubhouse but I do agree that it is the scrub on the bench who become the leaders of the clubhouse not the MVP's.
But it appears that his teammates truely like him and the road hasn't been an easy one for him. Again, unless you know the circumstances it's unfair to judge.

How do more walks prove that the pitcher is afraid of the hitter?

bball123, I am not an expert--just more of an expert than you I guess. Your "simple questions" are more like simpleton questions actually. I would respect you're argument more if you actually defended your choice of Cabrera with some actual concrete reasoning instead of trying to act like stats that really show value are some mysterious idea just because you can't or won't try to understand them. What cloth are you talking about? Believe me, I'm not a man of the cloth.

Tell me why Cabrera is more valuable--Yea I know it's been a long time since a Triple Crown was won...blah, blah.

So you trust Major League players more than me. So what. Believe me after your arguements there are a few people I trust more than you too.

Walks don't always prove a pitcher is afraid of the hitter--I was being sarcastic.

3Bagger, you can't answer the questions and you're simpleton indeed. How do you compare a reliever, a pinch runner and a pinch hitter? And you are pushing your modeling on people and your stat on other?! What kind of science is this? The most of all you are discrediting the mlb players, what sort of disrespect you have for baseball? That everyone is wrong if they don't fit your 'modeling', including the mlb players? Totally unbelievable!

quote:

I am a strong supporter of the youth movement in baseball and I would like to see Trout get the honor, but I would be surprised if it happened but be supportive non the less.
About Cabrera's problem with alcohol, unless you know the exact facts, it's hard to understand. Getting him out of Miami was the best thing for him.
I don't know his role in the clubhouse but I do agree that it is the scrub on the bench who become the leaders of the clubhouse not the MVP's.
But it appears that his teammates truely like him and the road hasn't been an easy one for him. Again, unless you know the circumstances it's unfair to judge.

How do more walks prove that the pitcher is afraid of the hitter?

Right to the point, personal attacks on ball players always back fired.

I wish all the luck in the world, 3bagger, and hope you and your love ones never fallen into hard times.

I'll never fall on hard times that cause me to be accused of assualting my wife like Cabrera was during the 2009 playoffs when he was drunk right before a playoff game. I don't need to know the facts any more than those. I haveno respect for baseball!What the heck are you talking about? That's a clown statement, bro! You never answered MY simple question. Give me a rational reason with backup numbers whatever that proves Cabrera is more valuable than Trout in 2012.

Oh we can agree that Cabrera will be the MVP. It's just that I don't believe he deserves it.