Wait.
Professional baseball players, who endure the longest and most condense season of any professional athlete, are supposed to have credible opinions on an MVP race that is extremely close?
That is a plain stupid expectation. These guys have 162 games to play in 180 days. They spend almost all of their time focused on their own team. When they are not playing, they are traveling, eating, and sleeping. Sometimes they don't even have time for all of those things, and yet they have the time to observe these two guys play enough to have a valuable opinion on who's better? Absolutely not.
It is silly to take the players' opinions into account. Come on.
bball123- Here you go: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/
Ok, now that I've provided you with everything you so maturely asked for, please answer the question. What makes Cabrera more valuable than Trout?
Ok, now that I've provided you with everything you so maturely asked for, please answer the question. What makes Cabrera more valuable than Trout?
As I said before, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. Right or wrong, it is what it is. On the other hand, since the mlb players spent so much time in baseball, they should know a little more than we do. That's their career, and I respect that. Just as in science, there are what you call peer reviews, in publication, awards, etc. And that's what count, not your opinion or my opinion. Peer reviews, if you know anything about science and anything close to it.
quote:bball123- Here you go: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/
Ok, now that I've provided you with everything you so maturely asked for, please answer the question. What makes Cabrera more valuable than Trout?
Ok, if you have a reliever that has 30 strikeouts, a pinch runner with 40 stolen bases, and a pinch hitter with 40 hits, what would be their WAR? Which of them will come out on top? Why?
If you took time to read through the information I provided you, you would know that there needs to be a lot more information than what you provided in order to properly calculate.
Learn how to interpret things and then formulate your opinion. Until then, your opinion holds no water. In my time in life, both in school and in employment, I've been taught that things need to be proven by logical reasoning.
Read the links, then get back to us.
Learn how to interpret things and then formulate your opinion. Until then, your opinion holds no water. In my time in life, both in school and in employment, I've been taught that things need to be proven by logical reasoning.
Read the links, then get back to us.
You can't, that is the breaking point in the model. You are comparing apple to orange to banana. Each position is to its own. Once you place any weights to compare an orange to an apple, it breaks down.
No, it doesn't. Each position and each statistical measure is weighted differently and factored into the overall value of a player, as is described in the link I provided you.
You ignorantly argued a point and asked for proof from the other side. You were then provided EXACTLY what you asked for, and you continue to ignorantly argue a point without actually looking at the information that you had requested.
Are you serious?
READ what I sent you. Then we can talk.
You ignorantly argued a point and asked for proof from the other side. You were then provided EXACTLY what you asked for, and you continue to ignorantly argue a point without actually looking at the information that you had requested.
Are you serious?
READ what I sent you. Then we can talk.
Nope, if you put different weights to compare an orange to an apple, depending on the variation of the weights, one will get different results.
Where I grew up they taught us this thing called algebra, where you can quantify different things in different ways. There's also these things called exponents and percentages, which allow formulaic calculations to quantify those items in specific factors.
These concepts were in this umbrella of a thing called mathematics.
Your argument is now becoming comical. Putting different weight on different factors is something that literally occurs in every single walk of professional life. I don't know how you don't follow that concept, its quite possibly the single most basic concept of workplace interaction.
The "variation of weights" as you put it, is calculated very specifically, and formulaically, in the link I provided you. Since you seem to have missed it, here it is again:
Everything bball123 needs to know
These concepts were in this umbrella of a thing called mathematics.
Your argument is now becoming comical. Putting different weight on different factors is something that literally occurs in every single walk of professional life. I don't know how you don't follow that concept, its quite possibly the single most basic concept of workplace interaction.
The "variation of weights" as you put it, is calculated very specifically, and formulaically, in the link I provided you. Since you seem to have missed it, here it is again:
Everything bball123 needs to know
Now who is getting ridiculous? You are accusing people being ignorant, comical, serious etc. just because people don't have your same opinion or question your idea. Variation in weights is of great important. If one compare an orange to an apple, how much value do one put on the apple compared to someone else putting the value on the orange.
I am accusing you of being ignorant and comical because you are refusing to acknowledge the information I provided you with after you asked for it. I am not accusing you of having a wrong opinion. I'm accusing of being ignorant for not recognizing mine.
The weight that is put into both the apple and the orange is described, in detail, in the link I provided. Read it and you will understand.
The weight that is put into both the apple and the orange is described, in detail, in the link I provided. Read it and you will understand.
bb123, Let's get away from the name calling. Why do you think Cabrera is the MVP in the American League?
And I am questioning the weights that they are putting there, get it? Name calling is way below a person's dignity. A weight to one for an apple is different to a weight to another for an orange, so do the values. It's a useless debate, try convincing the mlb managers to bet their millions of dollars based on weights to sign a player and I would like to hear that in ESPN in near future. Good night.
Huh?
Three Bagger- 
LOL
Once again, I invite anyone to provide logical reasoning as to why Miguel Cabrera deserves the MVP over Mike Trout. I've yet to see it here or anywhere else.
bball123- The different weight for your apples and oranges are accounted for in the formula. Cabrera's WAR would be different if he was with another team. So would Trout's. There is no set universal value to each player's performance, team-specific factors are taken into account.
You're arguing with me about something that has already been proven. I will continue to repeat myself: Read what I sent you, so that you have a better understanding of what I'm actually talking about. The more you spew your claims, the worse you look.
When you read, you learn. Then you wouldn't argue something that you can't argue.
To others that are reading along, I'm sorry for being so snide. It is EXTREMELY frustrating to me when people deliberately choose to ignore information provided to them, especially when they are trying to make a point that is directly related to said information. I kind of feel like I'm trying to explain to someone how and why 2+2 doesn't equal 5, but they refuse to follow the steps to figure out the correct answer.
LOL Once again, I invite anyone to provide logical reasoning as to why Miguel Cabrera deserves the MVP over Mike Trout. I've yet to see it here or anywhere else.
bball123- The different weight for your apples and oranges are accounted for in the formula. Cabrera's WAR would be different if he was with another team. So would Trout's. There is no set universal value to each player's performance, team-specific factors are taken into account.
You're arguing with me about something that has already been proven. I will continue to repeat myself: Read what I sent you, so that you have a better understanding of what I'm actually talking about. The more you spew your claims, the worse you look.
When you read, you learn. Then you wouldn't argue something that you can't argue.
To others that are reading along, I'm sorry for being so snide. It is EXTREMELY frustrating to me when people deliberately choose to ignore information provided to them, especially when they are trying to make a point that is directly related to said information. I kind of feel like I'm trying to explain to someone how and why 2+2 doesn't equal 5, but they refuse to follow the steps to figure out the correct answer.
JH - first you are into name calling, now you are apologizing. Then you are asking people to do 2+2. Then you claim something is proven for a system that compare apples to oranges. Then you claim there are variations for team to team. Even the mlb players' votes are discredited. Next in time for your firing would then be mlb managers for not adopting your new age modeling. I rest my case here. As I said, I would like to hear the mlb managers talking about WAR this and WAR that, until then I rest my case.
GENTLEMEN----stop acting like kids----first of all if you are involved ithe game as player or coach you know who the valuable players on the other team are trust me on this
seondly beauty is in the eye of the beholder and math formulas mean squat--- MVP is a matter of personal opinion--which is what it should be
seondly beauty is in the eye of the beholder and math formulas mean squat--- MVP is a matter of personal opinion--which is what it should be
quote:JH - first you are into name calling, now you are apologizing. Then you are asking people to do 2+2. Then you claim something is proven for a system that compare apples to oranges. Then you claim there are variations for team to team. Even the mlb players' votes are discredited. Next in time for your firing would then be mlb managers for not adopting your new age modeling. I rest my case here. As I said, I would like to hear the mlb managers talking about WAR this and WAR that, until then I rest my case.
I'll address each sentence individually.
First sentence- Yes, and I realized name calling was immature. So for that, I apologize.
Second sentence- No, I'm asking people to read.
Third sentence- Yes, it is proven, in the link I provided for reading.
Fourth sentence- Yes, there are variations, and those team-based variations are taken into account based on which team the player is playing for...within the link I provided for reading.
Fifth sentence- I never discredited MLB players' opinions. They are just simply not sufficiently qualified to be the be all and end all of opinions about a player's value to his team. Players' opinions are extremely important when looking at intangible factors such as work ethic, character and makeup.
Sixth sentence- I can't say for sure, but I would assume that the vast majority of MLB managers take this type of analysis into account. They may not understand it like many front office employees do, but they appreciate the analysis it provides and at least try to learn how to apply it to the game for their benefit.
Seventh sentence- You never requested to hear MLB managers speak about sabermetrics. Nonetheless, there are many managers who embrace the statistical analysis side of the game...and often times those are the ones most successful. Organizations are extensions of their front offices, and communication channels among coaches and front office personnel are always open.
You've not rested your case, you've simply avoided the very simple question Three Bagger and I keep asking you. Why, in your opinion, should Miguel Cabrera be the 2012 AL MVP?
We literally cannot give you more information as to why we feel as though Trout should win. You've yet to provide a single shred of evidence on the contrary.
quote:seondly beauty is in the eye of the beholder and math formulas mean squat--- MVP is a matter of personal opinion--which is what it should be
The MVP has nothing to do with beauty, it has to do with value. Amateur scouts don't quantify a player's production value, statistics do.
JH - I haven't heard any mlb managers talking about WAR yet the last time I checked, until then I rest my case. Why are you keeping hounding on people, is it up to you for me to rest my case? Now I'm beginning to see you are a big bully. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Yours and mine do not count. What counts is in the mlb organization. Again until I heard mlb managers talking about WAR, I rest my case. If you choose be a bully go ahead.
can you please define BULLY
I rest my case until I hear mlb managers talk about WAR.
I am not too sure whether MLB managers really concern themselves with WAR as much as those (staticians) who watch stats closely day in and day out. That is IMO, the job of the front office, the managers job is to deal with the hand he gets and that doesn't always add up to a player that has the same value as the one he will be replacing. WAR may help to contribute to a players worth when his agent is negotiating his FA salary. Very few managers have input on who the organization signs. If you think that players have no time to pay attention to other guys, do you think that managers have time to follow WAR and other stats as well?
I don't think that players when voting for awards care about those stats either, most players are not statisticians. They see things differently.
Writers see things differently to, as well as fans, in other words not all see things the same way.
I am going to assume that when voting for an MVP most take into consideration who made a more significant impact looking at stats as well as intangibles. This game is and will always be part in part about player intangibles.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out next week.
JMO.
I don't think that players when voting for awards care about those stats either, most players are not statisticians. They see things differently.
Writers see things differently to, as well as fans, in other words not all see things the same way.
I am going to assume that when voting for an MVP most take into consideration who made a more significant impact looking at stats as well as intangibles. This game is and will always be part in part about player intangibles.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out next week.
JMO.
If the voters follow most of the Cabrera supporters logic then we will have a slugging first baseman or outfielder and once in a while third baseman as MVP most of the time. RBI is king with this logic. No leadoff batters, no Joe Morgans, etc. To elect guys like Joe Morgan someone has to look at things in a deeper light than the RBI leader and the voters did that in 1975 and 1976 because it was so obvious even without the benefit of sabermetrics. Once in a while it is so obvious that the voters get it right anyway and according to advanced metrics it should be obvious this year despite Cabrera's outstanding offensive year.
I will even go so far as to say, if Trout didn't exist this year then Cabrera would be my MVP because most of the other candidates are close even in the advanced metrics.
I will even go so far as to say, if Trout didn't exist this year then Cabrera would be my MVP because most of the other candidates are close even in the advanced metrics.
somebody is missing a bagg
bball123- I'll bite at your continued immaturity and blindness.
Joe Maddon (click play to listen)
Davey Johnson
Buck Showalter
There's three examples from some of the best and most successful managers in the game. I can definitely find more if you'd like, since I know research and learning aren't things you seem too fond of.
Now that I've answered EVERY single one of your ridiculous requests, please answer mine. Its pretty simple, actually.
Why does Miguel Cabrera deserve to be this year's AL MVP?
Joe Maddon (click play to listen)
Davey Johnson
Buck Showalter
There's three examples from some of the best and most successful managers in the game. I can definitely find more if you'd like, since I know research and learning aren't things you seem too fond of.
Now that I've answered EVERY single one of your ridiculous requests, please answer mine. Its pretty simple, actually.
Why does Miguel Cabrera deserve to be this year's AL MVP?
JH the hole id getting deeper and bigger
Indeed the hole is getting deeper and deeper. I rest my case until the mlb managers talk about WAR. I have heard mlb managers talk about rbi, on base percentage, etc. in interviews for example. Never WAR. Again I rest my case until mlb managers talk about WAR.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
bball123- I'll bite at your continued immaturity and blindness.
Joe Maddon (click play to listen)
Davey Johnson
Buck Showalter
There's three examples from some of the best and most successful managers in the game. I can definitely find more if you'd like, since I know research and learning aren't things you seem too fond of.
Now that I've answered EVERY single one of your ridiculous requests, please answer mine. Its pretty simple, actually.
Why does Miguel Cabrera deserve to be this year's AL MVP?
Nice stuff JH, I am sure that all managers now use statistics. I may be confused but the discussion was about WAR. Do managers rely on WAR for making decisions on who to place in the lineup?
Does a player deserve MVP because his WAR is higher than another players stats?
OK, I will bite, Cabrera leads Trout in all stats except for WAR. That alone should give him the award.
TPM - finally someone gets my message. I am trying to be patient despite all the name callings. Again I rest my case until mlb managers talk about WAR.
quote:Originally posted by bball123:
TPM - finally someone gets my message. I am trying to be patient despite all the name callings. Again I rest my case until mlb managers talk about WAR.
Getting off the topic os WAR, why does Cabrera deserve to be AL MVP?
That was my position at the very beginning. I was even made fun of with the wording "triple crown.... blah,blah,blah". I am answering to you because you won't make fun of an opinion that might differ from yours.
Again I rest my case until mlb managers talk about WAR.
bball123,
I think it's good to be open minded.
Trout is an exceptional player and I hope will be so for a long career. He is excellent in the field, and at the plate. He is a game changer for sure. Those are my reasons why he should be MVP, just as
I gave reasons for Cabrera.
I think that was all JH was asking. I can see how it might become frustrating that you were not listening to what he was saying!
As I said and and some know I am a bit biased towards Cabrera, but I have watched him grow up and become the player he is (as a Marlins fan), admitting he isn't the best at fielding but also more than willing to make a change that would benefit his team. For those that say that doesn't make a good teammate and not appreciated, I am not sure what is.
I think it's good to be open minded.
Trout is an exceptional player and I hope will be so for a long career. He is excellent in the field, and at the plate. He is a game changer for sure. Those are my reasons why he should be MVP, just as
I gave reasons for Cabrera.
I think that was all JH was asking. I can see how it might become frustrating that you were not listening to what he was saying!
As I said and and some know I am a bit biased towards Cabrera, but I have watched him grow up and become the player he is (as a Marlins fan), admitting he isn't the best at fielding but also more than willing to make a change that would benefit his team. For those that say that doesn't make a good teammate and not appreciated, I am not sure what is.
OK, I just read this thread over and I would like to apologize directly to bball123 as well as to others that have been following along. I realize that in no way, shape or form was it appropriate or mature of me to be on such a voracious offensive against something that in the grand scheme of things, is rather meaningless.
To be honest, I've grown frustrated several times with what I perceive as a lack of progressive thinking within the game. This has not happened here on this website, but I have found it many times in my every day life. I consider myself a student of the game and one that loves to learn about nuisances. I am a baseball player first and foremost and would never imagine discounting the on-field experiences that I've had, or anyone else has had in their career. Conversely, I recognize and embrace many aspects of the game that I feel better progress the game into a positive future. Sabermetrics and in-depth analytics as a whole are one of those topics.
While I still wholeheartedly feel as though Mike Trout is deserving of the AL MVP, I do respect other people's opinions, whether I agree with them or not. The comments and thread that bball123 and I had throughout this forum were largely inappropriate and were largely facilitated by yours truly. I was out of line in my responses, my reactions, and my temper.
Whatever happens next week in the MVP voting is fairly irrelevant in almost everyone's life here on this forum, and no one should be getting as worked up about things as I did this afternoon on this thread.
Hopefully, bball123, you accept my apology and we can move on with civility on these boards.
Once again, I am sorry.
To be honest, I've grown frustrated several times with what I perceive as a lack of progressive thinking within the game. This has not happened here on this website, but I have found it many times in my every day life. I consider myself a student of the game and one that loves to learn about nuisances. I am a baseball player first and foremost and would never imagine discounting the on-field experiences that I've had, or anyone else has had in their career. Conversely, I recognize and embrace many aspects of the game that I feel better progress the game into a positive future. Sabermetrics and in-depth analytics as a whole are one of those topics.
While I still wholeheartedly feel as though Mike Trout is deserving of the AL MVP, I do respect other people's opinions, whether I agree with them or not. The comments and thread that bball123 and I had throughout this forum were largely inappropriate and were largely facilitated by yours truly. I was out of line in my responses, my reactions, and my temper.
Whatever happens next week in the MVP voting is fairly irrelevant in almost everyone's life here on this forum, and no one should be getting as worked up about things as I did this afternoon on this thread.
Hopefully, bball123, you accept my apology and we can move on with civility on these boards.
Once again, I am sorry.
Ok, water under the bridge and hope we can move forward. I hope it's a lesson learned and don't do it to anyone else. I like Mike trout story as well, as I have stated at the very beginning. He is humble and he recognizes talents of other players publicly. Whatever model the future will adopt, it will be what it will be. All I know is that when there are millions of dollars on the line, people will move from model to model to find the one that works at that particular time. Even Billy Beane(if I get the spelling right), the king of stats, would travel from places to places to see prospects in real action before he decides on something. I maybe know a thing or two about weighted stat as I got a US patent for an invention on a modeling, full disclosure. The computer model was used to analyze multi-million dollar designs that would go to production. Guess what, I got grilled and grilled and was asked to fit backward and predict forward what the results were going to be. I had to state my assumption and limitation because after all, my neck in on the line and if a project fails because I was too optimistic, I would be on the chopping board. It was apple to apple comparison modeling with a small degree of freedom. Words got around and soon I was asked by others to do the analysis for them. One day I got a call from a buddy asking if I could do a quick analysis for him. As usual I asked what it was and all the parameters. Then I told him, no, I could not do it for you. He asked why, you done it before? My answer was the thing you asked me to analyze was beyond the spec of my model, meaning it would dump out garbage. He insisted that I do it anyway and I did it with full disclosure. Sure enough the output was meaningless and I still have his respect, instead of non full disclosure. It was a long process, predicting the past and the future. I had to prove it again and again the results I got was right. If I ever made a wrong prediction without full disclosure of any particular limitation, I would be in the dog house for a long time. I wish you all the luck in your modeling efforts.
congratulations to MIKE TROUT on his ROOKIE OF THE YEAR HONORS
Not looking to revamp an argument by any means, just looking to continue discussion.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.n...t-cabrera-for-m-v-p/
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.n...t-cabrera-for-m-v-p/
Why does Miguel Cabrera deserve to win the MVP over Mike Trout?
JH...you have convinced me! Plus Trout is from my part of the country.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
why does Cabrera deserve to be AL MVP?
Baseball is traditional. Yastrzemski, Robinson and Mantle were MVPs.