POP Time, 1.88 good?

CollegeParentNoMore posted:

"You'd be surprised at how many coaches want every pitch in the dirt to be blocked and will penalize catchers for picking rather than blocking."

To each his own level of understanding and/or comfort.  There don't seem to be a lot of college or hs catching coaches that truly appreciate the need to develop a young catcher by allowing him to be aggressive with his throwing which in turns builds confidence, which in turns builds a lot of key outs rather then just letting the opposition take a free base. 

In terms of giving up a second base on a pick attempt if the ball goes to the backstop, I am not sure its statistically any different then what happens with "blocked" pitches that bounce high off a shoulder pad or facemask and roll into a dugout etc.

 

CPNM, I would argue that the percentages are better with the block than the pick but that goes back to which pitches the catcher attempts to pick.  If C has a knack for recognizing depth properly and knowing his pitchers' movement, I'm with you.  There is certainly some "chicken or the egg" to this.

CURRYNC:

I watched your son's video with my son, who is also a catcher.  He immediately had several comments about the throw down portion to second base.

First, he said that he hates those high feeds like the one in the video.  As a catcher you have to choose the lesser of two evils, either you reach for the ball and keep your legs flexed or you come completely out of your crouch and lose the ability to quickly load the lower half, but you receive the pitch closer to your transfer point.  My son prefers to reach for the pitch so that he can try to maintain as much flexion and load in his lower half as he can.  It's a tough balancing act, and some catchers prefer to extend their lower half, I suppose it's personal preference.  Either way, it's not optimal.

Second, your son reached above his head to catch the pitch, but then brought his glove down below his belt, and the ball ended up at the mid-thigh to make the transfer to his throwing hand.  He then had to get the ball all the way back up to throwing position.  That's a lot of wasted motion and a lot of wasted time.  Without seeing more throws, it's difficult to say if that is his norm or an outlier, but I would bet that is his normal transfer position.  He should get his transfer point up closer to throwing position.  His current transfer point is probably set in muscle memory now, so he'll have to really work to change it.

Third, he can improve his footwork.  He's gaining too much ground with his post leg, in fact it looks like it gets in front of the stride leg.  As a result, the hips are late getting lined up with second, and the stride leg doesn't get a lot of extension.  Part of the issue might be that the lower half is having to wait for the upper half to get into position.  If he speeds up his transfer, the lower half will have to speed up also.

Last, after the first viewing, my son looked at me and said, "Dad, that's not a 1.88 pop time." He pointed out that the throw was at least 6 feet over the pitcher's head, and the ball dropped on the bag instead of going through it, much like CabbageDad already noted.  My son also pointed out that the pitcher was not watching the throw and took a couple of leisurely steps to get off the mound.  Son said that he wants the throw to go right where his pitcher was standing and head high.  He wants to see the pitcher almost running off the mound.  The pitcher should be very uncomfortable taking his eye off of the ball, because he can hear it whizzing past him.

So those are some observations from a catcher that is about the same age as your son, with some of my thoughts mixed in.  Maybe another poster can expand on them or correct any recommendations that they believe to be erroneous.

Regarding pop time: if you upload it to the hudl app there is a time function, you can go throw in slow motion and get the time (need to subtract start from stop time).

Regarding velo: it is probably most important but I know that coaches love a polished catcher, gives you more time to worry about other stuff.

Velo is king but two guys with the same or similar velo and one can catch the coach will always prefer the catcher. So best is having both but of course if you don't have the velo technique wont save you either.

But no reason to not work on both and make the coaches job easier.

Interesting to see where this topic has evolved. As for picks vs. blocks, I'd say it is a continually moving fine line of when to do one or the other when runners are on. In GENERAL, I'm a fan of blocking, especially when it is hot and humid because tired catchers are more likely to keep the ball in front of them with a block than relying on an athletic pick (and that's when the balls seem to get to the backstop). Mistakes are still made on occasion by veteran catchers, and even a cleanly blocked ball can hop up off the face mask or to the side. But I think most coaches, in general, would rather see consistent clean blocks than athletic picks most of the time.

Batty is 100% correct.  I gripe at my son if he picks a ball that clearly should have been a block.  There are some that are border line and he will pick those.  But there are catchers who will back hand pick cause they cannot block or are being lazy.  I remind my son he's a catcher, not a first baseman.  And if he does pick it is almost always with empty bases.  He typically blocks everything, even when no one is on base.  Guess it's habit but it also looks good if someone is watching.

As for coaches "penalizing" catchers for every ball.....    I want my son to block every ball too.  Is it realistic?  No.  Tell me how a catcher is to block a ball that is almost out of the batters box.  T will try to flash out and just get his body in front of it almost like a goalie or more likely try to pick it.  But there are some HORRIBLE fields out there where the ball doesn't bounce right or it hits the front of the raised home plate and bounces 8 feet in the air.  Nothing you can do there.   Officially any ball that hits the dirt is considered a wild pitch and is scored a wild pitch if a runner moves up or scores.A passed ball is on the catcher and is usually when it hits his glove and pops out if a normal effort would have caught it.  A catcher getting part of his mitt on a ball 5 feet over his head or 3 feet behind a batter is not a passed ball.  But a curve ball that gets under a catchers five hole allowing a runner at third to score or a batter to reach first on a strike three SHOULD be on the catcher.  It will be a wild pitch but a good coach is gonna expect his catcher to stop those and a good catcher is going to own those mistakes if they get by.

Plus a pitcher knows if he has a blocking catcher back there and will feel more comfortable throwing a strike three in the dirt to get a batter to chase.  When you see guys throwing 0-2 or 1-2 balls down the middle I think either he missed badly or he doesn't trust his catcher to block.  Biggest pet peeve of mine is seeing a catcher set up down the middle when its 0-2 or 1-2 and then pitcher grooves a meatball.  Irks the hell outta me!

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

 

2forU,

You've calculated AVERAGE velocity, not MAX velocity.  Over a distance of 127 feet I would guess that velocity drops somewhere in the neighborhood of 15mph, so a throw averaging 86mph requires probably close to 95mph max velo.  I don't think anyone, even Yadi gets this from a crouch.  As an example, in some of Yadi's ~1.8s throws that I've seen broken down by Statcast, his exchange time (catch, transfer, footwork, release) is ~.65s or even better, allowing more time for ball in flight, and his stated (presumed to be max) velo is low-mid 80s but the average velo, using your formula above for 1.15s in flight, is in the mid-high 70s.

jdb posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

Pitcher to home of 1.4 added means you should throw out a runner that is timed 3.2 seconds from 1st to 2b or slower.

I'm not a mathematician, there are variables in this (HS, College, Pros - all differ), but you get the gist of it.

Also, if you can block 92 (I do not believe this is something you can quickly learn, regardless of what people say, it takes years of muscle and brain memory to just react combined with early pitch recognition burned into your brain through many years of practice and annual increase in ball speed), you still have to field the ball and then throw, lacking velo in that instance means the runner is safe

2forU, you did make me chuckle with this post.  I won't argue with your math.  But...

For arguments sake, you are using 3.2 seconds as your benchmark for running from 1st to 2nd.  So the gist of your argument is that with the parameters you chose, a successful catcher has to have a velocity of 86.6 MPH...in your scenario.

So how many baseball players can steal a base in 3.2 seconds?  Billy Hamilton, arguably the fastest player in baseball, swipes the bag in a little over 3.1 seconds.  So in your scenario, with a relatively slow pitcher (the better pitchers with runners on are 1.0-1.2  first move to home), a decent catch to release (.6 seconds with a good pitch is fast, but not unrealistic), and a world class runner stealing the bag; a catcher needs a velocity of almost 87 MPH to successfully spoil that stolen base attempt.  That is really not a reasonable comparison.

Let's say that you have pitcher who can get the ball to home in 1.3 seconds, a catcher at .7 seconds to release, and a runner at 3.3 (still faster than 95% of high schoolers) seconds, that means if our catcher gets the ball to second 1.1 seconds, he beats the runner by .2 of a second.  What velocity does the catcher now have to throw?  I feel like I'm back in physics class doing vector questions.  That 1.1 second throw requires a velocity of 79.4 MPH; If the catcher takes 1.2 seconds to get the ball to second, he needs a velocity of only 72.5 MPH.  That elite runner will be out by a step on a low 70's throw.

The take away for CURRYNC and her son, is to keep working on his mechanics, in all phases, including receiving, blocking, transfers and throws.  However, don't obsess over your velocity if it doesn't match the elite level guys in the mid 80's.  If he wants to increase his caught stealing percentage, work with his pitchers, get the coaches or other players to time all three phases of the play, and get the pitchers to buy into the premise that they are as important in this process as the catcher.  Tell your son to praise his pitchers every time they (pitcher/catcher as a unit) gun down a runner at the bag.  Once the pitchers buy into the concept and take it personally when a runner steals, it becomes a whole lot easier on the catcher. 

CURRYNC, don't believe this meme that you have to throw mid 80's from a crouch to be a college catcher prospect... not necessarily D1, but you can be wanted at the college level with a lower velocity. 

A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second.  Runner is safe unless the ball travels 86.6 MPH

No bench mark, just an example.  The quicker you get rid of the ball, the slower you can throw it, simple math. But a throw from home to second is still 127 ft. A ball needs to travel at 86.6 MPH to go 127 ft in one second. So a faster catch and release means he can throw slower, but the ball wont travel 127 feet in one second or 1.1 seconds. A ball thrown at 79.4 MPH only travels 116.453333 feet in 1.1 seconds.  It will take 1.599 (1.6) seconds to go 127 feet, add 1.3 and .7 and your complete time is 3.6 seconds from pitch - catch - 2b on the bag.  A 3.3 runner will beat that throw by .3 seconds

Smitty28 posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

 

2forU,

You've calculated AVERAGE velocity, not MAX velocity.  Over a distance of 127 feet I would guess that velocity drops somewhere in the neighborhood of 15mph, so a throw averaging 86mph requires probably close to 95mph max velo.  I don't think anyone, even Yadi gets this from a crouch.  As an example, in some of Yadi's ~1.8s throws that I've seen broken down by Statcast, his exchange time (catch, transfer, footwork, release) is ~.65s or even better, allowing more time for ball in flight, and his stated (presumed to be max) velo is low-mid 80s but the average velo, using your formula above for 1.15s in flight, is in the mid-high 70s.

Well, my math skills don't include gravity.  That is where I draw the line - lol.  I'm sure that is someone way better at math than I am.

2forU posted:

Smitty28 posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

 

2forU,

You've calculated AVERAGE velocity, not MAX velocity.  Over a distance of 127 feet I would guess that velocity drops somewhere in the neighborhood of 15mph, so a throw averaging 86mph requires probably close to 95mph max velo.  I don't think anyone, even Yadi gets this from a crouch.  As an example, in some of Yadi's ~1.8s throws that I've seen broken down by Statcast, his exchange time (catch, transfer, footwork, release) is ~.65s or even better, allowing more time for ball in flight, and his stated (presumed to be max) velo is low-mid 80s but the average velo, using your formula above for 1.15s in flight, is in the mid-high 70s.

Well, my math skills don't include gravity.  That is where I draw the line - lol.  I'm sure that is someone way better at math than I am.

My point is that a catcher getting a ball down to 2nd base with flight time of 1.2s is really good and will result in a 1.9ish pop time if the other mechanics are good, and this would be an average velo of low 70s, and a max velo in the high 70s.  A lot of people don't understand that throwing from the crouch makes it very difficult to get the kind of velo numbers you see off the mound or across the infield or outfield, and even the most elite studs are hitting max velos of low to mid 80s.  I can't think of any catcher that's been recorded hitting 90s from the crouch.

Smitty28 posted:

2forU posted:

Smitty28 posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

 

2forU,

You've calculated AVERAGE velocity, not MAX velocity.  Over a distance of 127 feet I would guess that velocity drops somewhere in the neighborhood of 15mph, so a throw averaging 86mph requires probably close to 95mph max velo.  I don't think anyone, even Yadi gets this from a crouch.  As an example, in some of Yadi's ~1.8s throws that I've seen broken down by Statcast, his exchange time (catch, transfer, footwork, release) is ~.65s or even better, allowing more time for ball in flight, and his stated (presumed to be max) velo is low-mid 80s but the average velo, using your formula above for 1.15s in flight, is in the mid-high 70s.

Well, my math skills don't include gravity.  That is where I draw the line - lol.  I'm sure that is someone way better at math than I am.

My point is that a catcher getting a ball down to 2nd base with flight time of 1.2s is really good and will result in a 1.9ish pop time if the other mechanics are good, and this would be an average velo of low 70s, and a max velo in the high 70s.  A lot of people don't understand that throwing from the crouch makes it very difficult to get the kind of velo numbers you see off the mound or across the infield or outfield, and even the most elite studs are hitting max velos of low to mid 80s.  I can't think of any catcher that's been recorded hitting 90s from the crouch.

If you go to the perfectgame homepage, on the bottom left there is a showcase leaderboard for each class.

Max C velocity by Grad year:

2017: 88  2018: 86  2019:82  2020:77

Looking back at history, a couple of hit 90+.  Seeing the progression by age, I guess you can assume they will get a little faster in college.  

So yes, 88-90 happens every year, but at least for PG showcases, you can still have a top 20 C velo with low-mid 80's. 

2forU posted:

No bench mark, just an example.  The quicker you get rid of the ball, the slower you can throw it, simple math. But a throw from home to second is still 127 ft. A ball needs to travel at 86.6 MPH to go 127 ft in one second. So a faster catch and release means he can throw slower, but the ball wont travel 127 feet in one second or 1.1 seconds. A ball thrown at 79.4 MPH only travels 116.453333 feet in 1.1 seconds.  It will take 1.599 (1.6) seconds to go 127 feet, add 1.3 and .7 and your complete time is 3.6 seconds from pitch - catch - 2b on the bag.  A 3.3 runner will beat that throw by .3 seconds

I don't think any catcher can throw 86 on average. you easily would need to be 92 at release which would equal to at least upper 90s from the mound.

last year the hardest throw by a catcher was gary sanchez at 88.9 AT RELEASE which probably means an arrive velo of 69 MPH (pitcher loses 10 MPH to home so it should be about twice due to the double distance). that means his throw averaged at best 80 mph. I doubt anyone can make the throw in 1 second flat.

this article here from 2012 claimed 83 release, 72 average and 1.2 second time for molina, meaning to get his game 1.8s (which is elite, the fastest pop time 2016 was 1.72) he transfers and releases in about .6 seconds.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports...c1-0019bb30f31a.html

Just a thought about PG and their "historical" Numbers.  You need to look at sampling size too.

2017 will have a much larger sampling size than 2018...2018 than 2019 and so on.  2020 probably has only a handful of athletes listed and the reason a 2020 is already on their board is cause he is the best around.

What my point is, my hypothesis is 2017 numbers are made up of more "averages" then a 2020.  This make sense or am I way off!!??

My 2020 threw off a mound and he's 5'8 and 135 (listed him summer time as 5'9 140).  He hit 64 MPH with NO pitching training just throwing.  Quick feet and he gets the throw down fairly well..I think he could at his best hit a 2.2 somewhere but it averages more like 2.3 or so.  Just hoping on the growth spurt. They had him at a 2.4 last fall and he is throwing much better now....

Kevin,

You are right about the sample sizes, but the velo range of the top 20 or so stays consistent year after year.  I was just pointing out  that both the above points  were correct.  Some people can indeed hit 90, but for the most part if you are low to mid  80's, you would still be in the top 20 of PG, which is good enough to get a look from coaches if you are doing everything else right.

And keeping a catching thread alive for 3 days is pretty cool as well...

lol-

I soak up what ever I can on catchers...LOL...  I was checking out some of the guys bio's who done 2017 show cases but are 2020 grads...Its throwing and hitting.  Not a single remark that a catcher has or doesn't have polished receiving skills....

@ CabbageDad, CPNM, Batty67, KevinA, et al:

I think someone on this thread wrote that any player who wants to play catcher has to be a little "off" in the first place.  I agree with that assessment.  It's a physically and mentally grueling position to play.  It also is a position that tends to be really hard on the body.  Anyone who has blocked an 80+ MPH fastball knows that it can hurt like hell.  Blocking pitches in the dirt is a skill that successful catchers must master, that's a given.  However, there are times when blocking a pitch is completely unnecessary, and there are times when picking a pitch can have a better outcome. 

Pitchers love having a catcher who keeps everything in front of them, when runners are on base.  However, blocking every pitch, even when there is no one on base, unnecessarily beats up your catcher.  Also, if a 90 MPH pitch is yanked into the batters box, it's tough for even the most athletic catcher to block that pitch, much less be in a position to make a throw to second.  If the catcher can pick that ball, he puts himself in a great position (hips already turned, still in a crouch, ball in his glove for a quick transfer) to make a throw to second.  That's with a runner at first; if there is a runner at third, then the catcher has to do everything he can to keep the ball from getting past him.  With the runner at third, the catcher isn't worried about making a throw, just keeping the ball around the plate, so the runner is deterred from attempting to score.  So the catcher has to be situationally aware before every pitch, and mentally prepared for a different action depending on the variables of the play.

My son had a coach who pitched in college, and he wanted his catchers to block when that was the right choice, pick when that was better, and preserve their bodies when there is no need to get beat up.  That requires focus, but doesn't the game always require focus?

The first time a pitcher yanks a pitch wide into the batter's box, and his catcher picks the ball, then throws the runner out at second; that pitcher will be sold.  Again, when runners are on, most pitches in the dirt should be blocked, but there are circumstances when the pick can be a better option.

Yup, nice post JDB.  Of course. the problem is "a little off" and "situationally aware" don't always match up.

2forU posted:

jdb posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

Pitcher to home of 1.4 added means you should throw out a runner that is timed 3.2 seconds from 1st to 2b or slower.

I'm not a mathematician, there are variables in this (HS, College, Pros - all differ), but you get the gist of it.

Also, if you can block 92 (I do not believe this is something you can quickly learn, regardless of what people say, it takes years of muscle and brain memory to just react combined with early pitch recognition burned into your brain through many years of practice and annual increase in ball speed), you still have to field the ball and then throw, lacking velo in that instance means the runner is safe

2forU, you did make me chuckle with this post.  I won't argue with your math.  But...

For arguments sake, you are using 3.2 seconds as your benchmark for running from 1st to 2nd.  So the gist of your argument is that with the parameters you chose, a successful catcher has to have a velocity of 86.6 MPH...in your scenario.

So how many baseball players can steal a base in 3.2 seconds?  Billy Hamilton, arguably the fastest player in baseball, swipes the bag in a little over 3.1 seconds.  So in your scenario, with a relatively slow pitcher (the better pitchers with runners on are 1.0-1.2  first move to home), a decent catch to release (.6 seconds with a good pitch is fast, but not unrealistic), and a world class runner stealing the bag; a catcher needs a velocity of almost 87 MPH to successfully spoil that stolen base attempt.  That is really not a reasonable comparison.

Let's say that you have pitcher who can get the ball to home in 1.3 seconds, a catcher at .7 seconds to release, and a runner at 3.3 (still faster than 95% of high schoolers) seconds, that means if our catcher gets the ball to second 1.1 seconds, he beats the runner by .2 of a second.  What velocity does the catcher now have to throw?  I feel like I'm back in physics class doing vector questions.  That 1.1 second throw requires a velocity of 79.4 MPH; If the catcher takes 1.2 seconds to get the ball to second, he needs a velocity of only 72.5 MPH.  That elite runner will be out by a step on a low 70's throw.

The take away for CURRYNC and her son, is to keep working on his mechanics, in all phases, including receiving, blocking, transfers and throws.  However, don't obsess over your velocity if it doesn't match the elite level guys in the mid 80's.  If he wants to increase his caught stealing percentage, work with his pitchers, get the coaches or other players to time all three phases of the play, and get the pitchers to buy into the premise that they are as important in this process as the catcher.  Tell your son to praise his pitchers every time they (pitcher/catcher as a unit) gun down a runner at the bag.  Once the pitchers buy into the concept and take it personally when a runner steals, it becomes a whole lot easier on the catcher. 

CURRYNC, don't believe this meme that you have to throw mid 80's from a crouch to be a college catcher prospect... not necessarily D1, but you can be wanted at the college level with a lower velocity. 

A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second.  Runner is safe unless the ball travels 86.6 MPH

Ok 2forU, I think that others have already addressed this, so I'll be brief. I also acknowledge that these are averages not initial velocities, so they aren't perfectly equivalent to real world velocities.  They do show how required velocities decrease as upstream processes get faster.

You said, "A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second.  Runner is safe unless the ball travels 86.6 MPH." - and "Well, my math skills don't include gravity.  That is where I draw the line - lol.  I'm sure that is someone way better at math than I am."

"A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second." Uhh, Nooo.

A ball traveling 79.4 MPH is traveling at a rate of 116.4533 feet/second, not per 1.1 seconds.  When you add that .1 of a second at 11.6453 feet you have... 128.098 feet.  Sooo, the throw does beat the runner by .1 of a second, which is about 2 feet for a fast runner, and the ball does not have to travel at 86.6 MPH.  The math doesn't require accounting for gravity.

Any thread where people debate math when the point is to improve an argument lose their way, in general.

Yes, a good catcher knows when to block and when to pick.

On a beautiful day with defense making outs and pitching rarely putting one in the dirt, it might complete sense for the catcher to try and block virtually everything (since there is not much and that's good form). On a hot and humid day, a long day with extra outs due to errors, and/or lots of balls in the dirt, a good catcher should know when picking to preserve the energy and lower the punishment is the right thing to do. When to pick vs. block on a ball off the plate takes experience and situational awareness, and cannot be "taught" quickly

Batty67 posted:

Any thread where people debate math when the point is to improve an argument lose their way, in general.

Yes, a good catcher knows when to block and when to pick.

On a beautiful day with defense making outs and pitching rarely putting one in the dirt, it might complete sense for the catcher to try and block virtually everything (since there is not much and that's good form). On a hot and humid day, a long day with extra outs due to errors, and/or lots of balls in the dirt, a good catcher should know when picking to preserve the energy and lower the punishment is the right thing to do. When to pick vs. block on a ball off the plate takes experience and situational awareness, and cannot be "taught" quickly

"Any thread where people debate math when the point is to improve an argument lose their way, in general."

Point taken, and yes I did feel like I lost my way.  I will redirect in the future, hopefully.

My apologies to you too, CURRYNC.

jdb posted:

2forU posted:

jdb posted:

2forU posted:

Catch and release is .8 seconds of pop time (good footwork and mechanics), means that the ball needs to travel the 127 ft going 86.6 mph to get to 2b in one second, making pop time of 1.8 seconds

MPH to Feet per second is 86.6 Miles per Hour = 127.013333 Feet per Second

s = d/t

Pitcher to home of 1.4 added means you should throw out a runner that is timed 3.2 seconds from 1st to 2b or slower.

I'm not a mathematician, there are variables in this (HS, College, Pros - all differ), but you get the gist of it.

Also, if you can block 92 (I do not believe this is something you can quickly learn, regardless of what people say, it takes years of muscle and brain memory to just react combined with early pitch recognition burned into your brain through many years of practice and annual increase in ball speed), you still have to field the ball and then throw, lacking velo in that instance means the runner is safe

2forU, you did make me chuckle with this post.  I won't argue with your math.  But...

For arguments sake, you are using 3.2 seconds as your benchmark for running from 1st to 2nd.  So the gist of your argument is that with the parameters you chose, a successful catcher has to have a velocity of 86.6 MPH...in your scenario.

So how many baseball players can steal a base in 3.2 seconds?  Billy Hamilton, arguably the fastest player in baseball, swipes the bag in a little over 3.1 seconds.  So in your scenario, with a relatively slow pitcher (the better pitchers with runners on are 1.0-1.2  first move to home), a decent catch to release (.6 seconds with a good pitch is fast, but not unrealistic), and a world class runner stealing the bag; a catcher needs a velocity of almost 87 MPH to successfully spoil that stolen base attempt.  That is really not a reasonable comparison.

Let's say that you have pitcher who can get the ball to home in 1.3 seconds, a catcher at .7 seconds to release, and a runner at 3.3 (still faster than 95% of high schoolers) seconds, that means if our catcher gets the ball to second 1.1 seconds, he beats the runner by .2 of a second.  What velocity does the catcher now have to throw?  I feel like I'm back in physics class doing vector questions.  That 1.1 second throw requires a velocity of 79.4 MPH; If the catcher takes 1.2 seconds to get the ball to second, he needs a velocity of only 72.5 MPH.  That elite runner will be out by a step on a low 70's throw.

The take away for CURRYNC and her son, is to keep working on his mechanics, in all phases, including receiving, blocking, transfers and throws.  However, don't obsess over your velocity if it doesn't match the elite level guys in the mid 80's.  If he wants to increase his caught stealing percentage, work with his pitchers, get the coaches or other players to time all three phases of the play, and get the pitchers to buy into the premise that they are as important in this process as the catcher.  Tell your son to praise his pitchers every time they (pitcher/catcher as a unit) gun down a runner at the bag.  Once the pitchers buy into the concept and take it personally when a runner steals, it becomes a whole lot easier on the catcher. 

CURRYNC, don't believe this meme that you have to throw mid 80's from a crouch to be a college catcher prospect... not necessarily D1, but you can be wanted at the college level with a lower velocity. 

A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second.  Runner is safe unless the ball travels 86.6 MPH

Ok 2forU, I think that others have already addressed this, so I'll be brief. I also acknowledge that these are averages not initial velocities, so they aren't perfectly equivalent to real world velocities.  They do show how required velocities decrease as upstream processes get faster.

You said, "A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second.  Runner is safe unless the ball travels 86.6 MPH." - and "Well, my math skills don't include gravity.  That is where I draw the line - lol.  I'm sure that is someone way better at math than I am."

"A ball traveling 79.4 MPH will travel 116.4533 feet in 1.1 second." Uhh, Nooo.

A ball traveling 79.4 MPH is traveling at a rate of 116.4533 feet/second, not per 1.1 seconds.  When you add that .1 of a second at 11.6453 feet you have... 128.098 feet.  Sooo, the throw does beat the runner by .1 of a second, which is about 2 feet for a fast runner, and the ball does not have to travel at 86.6 MPH.  The math doesn't require accounting for gravity.

Yeah, that's probably why I always got B's in math.  Thanks for the correction.  Velocity is king, I will not change that!

I found this from 2011 on HSBBW:

Credit to

 If a player has a release time of .70 and they throw the ball 75mph their pop time would be 1.85.

The distance from the back point of home plate to the middle of 2B is 127.28ft (or 90*the square root of 2 for you geometry guys!).

When the ball is thrown 75mph it is traveling 110fps (feet per second), which means it would travel the 127.28ft in 1.157s.

So...if a player has a release of .7s and is throwing 75mph, the ball will get there in around 1.857s (.7+1.157).

This is based on the catcher releasing the ball directly over the back point of the plate and the middle infielder catching the ball directly over the middle of 2B. For the purposes of math, you must assume those two things to be true. It would be impossible to measure results based on anything other than that (catcher closer or further from home plate, middle infielder catching the ball in front of the bag, wind, friction of the air against the ball, etc.).

Thanks to all for helping prove my point  - Velo is king.  I think Ironhorse is correct.  Max velo at 90 is where you need to be or upper 80's so that your average ball speed combined with release provides decent pop time.  By the time the ball slows down at 2b, your velo average is in the 70's (please insert something here on how fast the ball slows down or the faster you throw it the less it slows down - I'm sure there is more to it).  Quicker release means you can have a lower max and average.  If you have a .1 reduction in catch and throw, how does that affect max and average velocity to equal the same pop time?

2forU posted:

Thanks to all for helping prove my point  - Velo is king.  I think Ironhorse is correct.  Max velo at 90 is where you need to be or upper 80's so that your average ball speed combined with release provides decent pop time.  By the time the ball slows down at 2b, your velo average is in the 70's (please insert something here on how fast the ball slows down or the faster you throw it the less it slows down - I'm sure there is more to it).  Quicker release means you can have a lower max and average.  If you have a .1 reduction in catch and throw, how does that affect max and average velocity to equal the same pop time?

I haven't been able to find a single HS catcher in PG database that hit 90.  Austin Hedges hit 85 with a 1.75 pop, that's the best I've seen.  Maybe they are there but I think it is WAY overstating it to say that 90 is where you need to be.