Service Academy Draftee

I fully appreciate the goal of the Academies and know that all graduates will not be 'on the ground'. Particularly if they graduate from USAFA ) But that doesn't change the point that their work, be it in engineering, administration, logistics, in further training of subsequent cadets, or any one of a number of alternatives should be in service of their country as an officer for, at a minimum, the stated tour of duty, be it 4, 5 or 7 as it has been at one time or another.

Of course, the individual cadet's talents and professional goals should be taken into consideration; it's the best use of personnel. I'm just maintaining that, for Academy graduates, it should be within the realm of the service who educated them.

And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.

I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?

This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.

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Originally posted by luvbb:

quote:

You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.

Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist.

Again, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options".

It does not benefit enlisted personal already in service. However, it is not unfair to them either. That's like saying it is unfair to have a God given ability and be given special priveleges to use it...like make millions of dollars throwing a fastball...or getting a record contract for singing.

No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way. Universities across America have publicity and marketing departments. These departments use the talents of students within their universities to further themselves. Every college in America participates in this endeavor. Now however, according to you, there is some unfairness when people are allowed options that are not available to other people. I have yet to hear another cadet, service person, retired service, or former grad stand up say they believe this policy to be unfair, yet you point to this as unfair. Army graduated 7 seniors from their baseball team last year. The 5 who are currently serving active duty are thrilled that their other two teammates are playing pro ball. Every cadet I have talked to thinks that the idea of having a high caliber baseball team is really cool. They love the idea that they went to school with guys who might be a major leaguer some day (kinda like civilian universities and non enlisted people).

Why must you purport that people currently serving would think this unfair. This is a voulunteer Army. No one is serving against their will. They didn't enlist in the service or at West Point and then turn and point a finger and ask why someone else is being treated "better" or "differently". You are simply making that up and it doesn't hold water.

The service is trying to use its personal to best benefit themselves. If that means that they can get millions of dollars of free PR and advertising by allowing an occasional cadet to turn pro, they have shown that's an investment they want to make...just the same as any other university in America. Your whole argument is based on the "burden of duty principle". What you fail to realize, is the duty is not considered a burden by the people who bear it, it is considered a privilege. When you come to terms with that, you will be a little closer to understanding how the cadet is torn between baseball and service to his country, and not fleeing an obligation.

CPLZ, your question about college graduate famous singers diverts the question as to whether there are any other careers, other than pro sports, for which a commitment to the service Academies can be "modified".

Of course, that also begs the question as to whether a modified commitment can be called a commitment.

Performance artists who attend college are generally in the realm of chorales or opera; you, then, might argue that they're not 'famous enough'. Immaterial. The original question remains unanswered.

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Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.

Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:

Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts

Just a quick google search...do you want more?

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.

I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?

This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.

You are wrong about enlistment. When you enlist, you have a contract that says exactly what duties you will perform in the service. The service doesn't change that, it would be breach. If you enlist for nuclear engineering, that's where you go.

As to which job comes first, take into account the high quality of the individual that they start with, then put 4 years of INTENSIVE molding into as West Point calls it, "Leaders of Character", and I believe you'll find the words, DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, will answer that question.

As to the value of the player, it's a free market, and I'm proud to say that I did my part in the Army to defend that value and others.

quote:

Originally posted by luvbb:

quote:

Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.

Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:

Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts

Just a quick google search...do you want more?

Nope, my point is made...you didn't know a single one, you had to research it...most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it. You shot your own argument in the foot with that one.

You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.

quote:

No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.

Seriously????? With the unprecedented and unparallelled prestige and influence that BOTH athletes AND performing artists have..you REALLY do not think if someone in the vein of a "Kenny Chesney" was an academy cadet and given an "alternate assignment" to develop his talents and appeal that it could not be used to the military's advantage????? Do you have teenaged kids?

Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.

IMO..not so ludicrous.

But thank you for your explanation. I do not agree with it at all...personally, I see it as a rationalization for preferential treatment and another example of how the value of professional sports is overemphasized by our society, I know you will never see it that way. But I accept your viewpoint without ridicule or put downs. Thank goodness we live in America where differing viewpoints can be accomodated...thanks in large part to our military.

quote:

most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it.

Seriously, I couldn't do that either. No, I'm wrong..I could tell you that Pat Burrell/Miami and Chase Utley/UCLA but only because my daughter is obsessed with them....but my daughter didn't enroll at either of those colleges because of them either. Some of those musicians I could tell you off the top of my head too...because "to me" they are common knowledge. Maybe it is the male point of view vs. a woman's. Maybe it is because you pay way too much attention and put too much importance into knowing what colleges professional players attended????? For that matter..are you REALLY surprised I wouldn't know where pro baseball players went to college when I am espousing the idea of professional sports being too important in our society????

quote:

You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.

You see...there you go again. Too bad you can't have a civil discussion without getting "personal" when people do not happen to agree with your point of view. Do not assume I don't "listen" just because I don't agree with you. Listening isn't defined as "accepting". If YOU had been listening to ME you would understand that the point isn't to bend one to one's will here.

I have apologized for posting something that you took as an insult and ludicrous. I have TRIED to explain. I have answered your questions (you know..I couldn't tell you 10 types of military aircraft EITHER without googling...sorry....female moron here, guess I can't have an opinion on the military if I can't name those without googling)...I know for a FACT that you are out to WIN an argument...when I am interested in discussing without trying to CHANGE your mind. Do you SERIOUSLY think ANYONE would even TRY to change your mind when you take into consideration you are former military AND your son plays ball at West Point? I know for a fact that trying to discuss with YOU is ludicrous. If "googling" instead of knowing off the top of my head is your PROOF of victory...then I want YOU as opposing counsel some day. My QUESTION was whether West Point allows buyouts for non-athletes for goodness sakes!!!!! YOU are the one who has to have a person who questions "jump thru your hoops" before you'll answer. YOU are the one who wanted lists of performers!!!! And when I gave it to you...you resorted to adding in yet ANOTHER criteria (had to know it off the top of my head rather than google)..and then you say "I REFUSE TO LISTEN?????"

Thanks for proving what we are dealing with here: Your rules didn't work for you...so you changed them.....sound familiar???? To quote CPLZ "You shot your own argument in the foot with that one".

If baseball talent blossomed suddenly during a cadet's junior or senior year, I would be closer to understanding your justification. Prior to that, a cadet has the option of leaving the Academies without a commtiment to serve. Given the goal of a professional baseball career, a player certainly has the option of attending any one of a number of fine universities with strong baeball programs.

I certainly see that attending a service Academy is a priviledge; priviledges hold responsibilites.

I'm curious about this benefit to the military of "millions of dollars of free PR and advertising". As this website is the only place I've heard of the Academy grad as minor leaguer (and I tend to pay attention to Things Baseball), I might suggest their ad campaign is ineffective.

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Your snide comment to luvbb about having to research singers and their colleges was inappropriate. People interested in performance artists would know that information and would not know what college any given pro ballplayer attended. Being more interested in sport does not make your arguement stronger.

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Perhaps you are unaware of the contracted tours of duty extended in Iraq at the dictate of the military. Breach? Then I guess that isn't actually happening.

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"You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time."

Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.

cpzl your support for a cadet pursuing another career is admirable, but your logic is a mess

tho I'll retract when I see my first
"Be ALL YOU CAN BE ... a switch hitting 1B" commercial

a guy who expresses aspirations to be a pro athelete during the application process would never even sniff an Academy appointment

quote:

Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.

Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.
Not one Soldier has ever complained about there Assignment's.
EH

quote:

Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.

First off...Bob Hope and his tour were NOT academy grads or even servicement for that matter. They were volunteers who took it upon themselves to be morale boosters. And yes, there are military musicians. Heck...there are military BASEBALL TEAMS (google it)....hmmmm, now there is a novel concept.

http://www.uso.org/

Look it up, Yes it is Voluntary service to some entertainer's.
But not to the people who put on the show.

Welcome to The USO
The USO is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the troops by providing morale, welfare and recreation-type services to our men and women in uniform. The original intent of Congress — and enduring style of USO delivery — is to represent the American people by extending a touch of home to the military. The USO currently operates more than 130 centers worldwide, including ten mobile canteens located in the continental United States and overseas. Overseas centers are located in Germany, Italy, the United Arab Emirates, Japan, Qatar, Korea, Afghanistan, Guam, and Kuwait. Service members and their families visit USO centers more than 5.3 million times each year. The USO is the way the American public supports the troops.

Eh...what can I say? Is it a military strategy to "confound, confuse, conquer and destroy" someone with an opposing view point???

For that matter....it was CPZL who said:
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.

Not me....I was saying that they SHOULD use performers for their positive PR. If they are going to give exemptions to athletes..do it for performers as well.
And CPZL says that "I" am hellbent on not listening and being right??????

As I said Before, I understand Your's, Orlando's, and other's point of View.
And it is great that we can discuss this here.

Do you understand my point of view.

EH

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.

and let's add Orlando's tag line...
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not
one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett

huh...

Bulldog 19....I wanted to thank you for explaining some principles in your last post. It was informative. Thanks.

What does bringing up the USO have to do with the discussion?

Bee>, you are funny.

I agree, there is a matter of opinion on both sides and opinions should be repsected.

Getting back to the original discussion, I still can't see how "special circumstances" includes baseball.

Good for morale? Go take 1000.00 out of the bank and buy 100 ten dollar phone cards. That boosts morale. Or send DVD copies of the World Series to the bases.

I keep thinking of Pat Tillman, he GAVE UP a lucrative sports career to go to Afghanistan.

quote:

Bee>, you are funny.

I agree TPM...I'm having fun "visualizing" that commercial!