Short to zone...Long through zone

Linear, --- --- -- --- I figured out who he is and he was an awesome player and obviously knows more than you ever will.

Paul,

I said….

its,

I gotta be honest with you. I don't agree with everything Linear says. I don't like the fact that he gets a bit personal with cutting remarks in his replies.

I tend to like everyone, but sooner or later we have to recognize what's going on. Linear IS NOT the only one making the cutting remarks! I know because I read a lot of what's written!

You said….

You are kidding right?

Would you like me to put his drug reference back in the post? You think that is appropriate and should remain?

I am out. You can do it. And I promise - I wont criticize your judgement.

Good luck.

Its,

I’m truly amazed! You took my post personally? If so I apologize.

My point was not about whether you deleted anything, in fact, I didn’t even know you deleted anything. I sure wasn't sticking up for anyone. I certainly have no problem with moderators deleting whatever they think is deserving.

My point was that there are others who play the same game as Linear, who are not reprimanded!

I don’t really care about any of this, so I should have just shut up! Sorry if this upset you, it wasn’t meant to.

I sure don’t want to be a moderator and appreciate the job you and others do, but is this all it takes for you to quit? Somehow I thought you were a bit tougher than that. In fact, I'm almost certain that you are. Please accept my apology if you feel I was unreasonable. I have no interest in making enemies out of those I consider friends.

You fraternity brothers are real close aren't you.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicksDigTheLongBall:
Linear, --- --- -- --- I figured out who he is and he was an awesome player and obviously knows more than you ever will.

I know who he is and have never heard of him.

I won't take anything away from his playing experience.

Just wonder why only 14 of those hits were in mlb.

Maybe if he understood posture and how the body finds the proper swing plane it would've made a difference. Maybe not.

For sure he wouldn't learn what he needs to learn from mlb instruction.

Survival of the fittest. Figure it out on your own or........next.

Jerry,

Your apology is not necessary. Like you - I care alot about this site.

I am trying very hard to be fair - and to avoid deleting anything. At first I was giving warnings - I am not going to do that anymore.

If someone posts something vulgar, obscene (in all senses of that word) - or disparages someone's race, ethnicity, age, *** or religion - I am going to wipe them out.

I dont care who it is. Period. And I dont care what they think.

If I have missed something - please bring it to my attention so I can address it.

We are friends. No need to apologize.

Shep,

I believe it is Andy.

Back to hitting. I asked the question awhile back about Pujols and his hands. Linear had heard Pujols talk about the hands. My question was... was he talking about the hands at the beginning or at contact? I'm not sure Linear answered, but swingbuster mentioned something about Pujols talking about the hands relating to the load or something like that.

The reason for my question was... I've heard many hitters talk about their hands, but not often about the hands in the beginning or load of their swing. (That's the easy part to master) They usually are talking about getting their hands to the right spot at contact. (That's the hard part to master)

Let's face it, the hands must go to the right spot at contact... This to me is hitting with your hands! No matter whose method or rules you want to listen to. All methods still require the hands to be in the best position at contact whether they get there by posture or they get there by other means.

We all know that hand position has to adjust (somehow) depending on the location of the pitch! This to me, is taking your hands to the ball, even if your not really taking your hands to the ball. I believe there are hitters who simply think and hit with their hands and this causes their body to adjust and do the right things. The things that others study film and try to determine how these things happen. The video does not show the hitters thought process, just the results of that thought process.

Thanks Paul!

Put your hands at the arm pit. Load the scap. Your rear hand/arm now resembles a boxer about to punch. Do this dynamically as you load your pelvis and then swing with connection. At first, you'll feel the hands "locked" there by the connection and rotation. Shortly thereafter, the rotation is such that it trys to force the hands to move forward. The degree they move is how much you let them move. And, you let them move according to the pitch location (inside, middle, outside). There is very little hand adjustment for up and down locations. The posture adjustments are for that.

As a famous guru's now famous student says....you've got to make the body and the bat be one unit. Everything works together as one.

Become one, you will reach your genetic success. Staying as two or more......the men's league is your limit.

I would love to hear more about keeping the bat in the hitting zone longer.
That is - practice techniques that help a young player do this.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
You still hold the key about the importance of the middle in the unlocking processes involved with larger muscle groups. No doubt about it, you are right about that forever and ever amen.

And, you can not properly use your middle if you're thinking hands. Or, if you don't understand the significance of posture. Thinking hands will not allow you to become one with the bat. Thinking hands will force you to go to the ball with the hands.......Now how do you adjust?

If you have good posture, good connection, good rotation you can get to many pitches without any independent hand movement. This allows you to start later.....get a better look.

If you're handsy at the beginning of the swing, how are you going to adjust?

Doug,

That pitcher looks familiar.

Linear, you haven't agreed with anyone from this site. You don't believe anyone who's a high school coach. You don't believe in anyone who's an NCAA coach. You don't even believe someone who's been in the pro's and gotten 1000 plus hits. So tell me what do you believe in? And Please tell uss, why exactly are you here on the HSBBWeb? What do you think your purpose is here on this site?

To his defense, I understand what Mr. Linear is talking about. Barry Bonds does has the best "posture" in the game. Another term for that is "staying back". Or keeping your front side quiet. No one says "posture" in pro ball. What you are talking about is important. It is hard to teach kids to have it. It is something that you learn over time. But it is important. And that myth that professional players give bad instruction was made up by a guy like you. I learned more my first spring training than I ever did from my high school, college, or any other coaches combined. We used to joke about that myth in the clubhouse. It makes guys like you feel better about never playing Mr. Linear. I don't wish to argue with you anymore. I am here to be a resource for people. Not to argue.

Great stuff.

A few comments, sorry for any new jargon,but some of the words have been used in previous thread might appear for sake of continuity.

shep-

you mentioned Aaron from the batspeed clips and where his foot came down. The "cue" I prefer to describe this is the Lau/Lau Jr one about controlling in vs out by the timing of when the front knee firms up. Sooner on inside,later on outside. This will often result ina difference in where the foot gets down (more toward bucket for more inside) but you have to think of this in a timing sense.not in the sense of where you are goingto put the foot or you will be late.

Epstein says "let the outside ball get deep". Again it's better to think of this in a primarily timing sense.

Linear-

How to describe quick in/quick out vs short to long through.

The desired short to long through is a result of creating swing quickness the way buster describes it as "early connection" or "early batspeed". In this case the description "early" is primarily in a space/location sense. Becasue you coil and uncoil the body well (Epstein "body torque")you can wait on the ball while the upper body stays more closed and the hands "stay back". Then when it's time, you can accelerate more qiuickly and hit the ball with a good extenbsion sequence before your stroke decelerates and turns into a 2 piece swing.

In your guru's "quick swing", the body can't stay closed/hands can't stay back. Coil is lacking and acceleration (and ability to adjust late/wait on ball is minimized) is slow. The swing has to be started early and the body spins as the 2 piece deceleration/reacceleration is prevented by handpath "hook".

You can be quick the old fashioned way (good) or the new guru way (spinhook/bad).The good way gives the half moon or NIKE swish shape as mentioned by buba (thanks for joining in).

Linear-

"MLB guys can't instruct".

I am more of a philosopher and theoirst am not so much an instructor. My observation is that MLB types are not interested in philosophy and are not typically good at science or theory, but they CAN instruct anyway. If you don't have all these skills,the MLB experience is the best of the options. Epsecially concerning the hitting AND swing info, both of which are necessary.

Linear-

Can't move the middle if you are thinking of the hands.

PGStaff-

I think the hands are where all the sensation is. You better get the hands to make the middle move however it needs to to get the early connection/early batspeed. As buster has decribed,this often requires getting the very early parts of the swing right so when the quick parts of the swing come, you are in a position to proceed well.

I agree with much (not all) of what Linear is saying... to talk about hands to young (HS or younger) hitters confuses them. Maintaining connection early is vital. Also many accomplished hitters (Gwynn/Morgan are great examples) are terrible at communicating the swing...(not talking about AB here) they will describe Bond's perfect rotational swing using words like (he really got his arms extended etc) when in fact what they saw was follow thru. That doesn't mean they don't know how to hit...but the words they use don't mean what they think they mean. That being said i will listen to them all day because their thought process while hitting is what interests me. I can teach my 15 and 10 yr olds to swing...probably very close to the way Linear would...but it's the decisions they make in the box (along with natural ability or not) that will make them successful or not.
Question....How do you instruct a correct follow-thru (extend toward the pitcher) without teaching to disconnect?

Major league baseball's track record of developing hitters is atrocious......Yet, they develop the best in the world.

How can it be both?

They pick and choose the best of the best every year. They are working with what appears to be the best athletes, or the athletes that show the best chance to make it..........yet the percentage that do is atrocious.

I refer you to Rob Ellis' 13 Reasons Why Pro Baseball Can't Teach Hitting. It's linked on this site somewhere. I believe it was Blue Dog that posted it.

And, my criticision is not of Andy or his ability or the level he achieved. My criticism is of the system that has been around for over 100 years and they still can't agree on a definition of a good swing.

The old boys club.

And, if it weren't for some "lay" people, including my favorites, but also others that I think have steered off track lately, it still wouldn't be getting done.

MLB, through their minor league system, provides a great training opportunity. Where else can you get 500 or more at bats per year against the best up and comers in the world? It is the ultimate "trial and error" opportunity.

The problem is that is far as they go. They throw you to the dogs.....survival of the fittest. Nothing close to good instruction is offered on any large scale.

Why isn't there a hitting coach on every minor league team??? They spend incredible amounts on salaries as they sign players and won't spend a nickel on a coach that works with the players everyday, day in, day out.

Why?......Are they short on money?

1.) No one is convinced any of them know what they are talking about........and they are right.

2.) Few have ever shown significant consistent results.

A good coach should be able to put guard rails on that trial and error. He should be able to shorten the learning curve. He should be able to use video, show what is right, teach what is right, work on getting it right, and then send the player to that outstanding trial and error opportunity.

MLB baseball hitting instruction is the equivalent of telling a high school freshman..."Here's your chemistry book. Test is Friday."

I predict a change is coming......far down the road....but, this internet thingy will have a similar effect on instruction as the sabrematricians had on which "numbers" are the most meaningful.

quote:

They pick and choose the best of the best every year. They are working with what appears to be the best athletes, or the athletes that show the best chance to make it..........yet the percentage that do is atrocious.

Linear,

Other than just sounding bitter... this makes no sense!!!!

There are only so many jobs… The percentages that make it will stay the same no matter who they are working with or how much better they get!

For each one called up – one gets sent down! The percentages will always be atrocious... even if you are coaching them all.

I give you respect for all that you have learned about hitting and your passion to share it. However, sometimes I get the impression that you have quit the learning part. It seems that no matter what sound information might be out there, you will never change your thinking. The only certain thing is that everything changes.

You are a big believer in the "old way was not the best way", yet I’m afraid any new ways will slip right past you. It takes an open mind or you won't notice if "there is something better than your way". You will have become that stubborn establishment that you argue against!

Don’t take that as a slam, I’m one of the few that really appreciates and enjoys your input and knowledge. Though, I can not understand your demeaner and bitterness at times.

PG

Always enjoy your comments. And, you're one of the few here that "get it".

But, did God say there could only be 32 (or whatever) mlb teams?

And, how many players hit under .250 but are there because of their defense.

Scout

I know nothing about what Ellis teaches.

But, I believe his article is dead on.

Funny how you can bring up the evils of minor league instruction but no one else can.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

But, did God say there could only be 32 (or whatever) mlb teams?

No - God has nothing to do with it.

The free market dictates the number of MLB teams in existence.

I'm trying to get an answer on a specific swing trait.... when I look at the overhead view of Pete Rose at www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html I think I see what my son's hitting coach would call "hook barrel". He looks like he stays connected forever. I don't see this in other clips (Chipper Jones for example). My son's instructor preaches getting extended on the follow thru toward the pitcher... which i see in most MLB clips. Right or wrong??

quote:

Major league baseball's track record of developing hitters is atrocious......Yet, they develop the best in the world.

How can it be both?

I'll preface my comments by saying that I like much of what Linear brings to the table regarding pure swing mechanics, and I've learned to turn a deaf ear to the rest of the nonsense.
I use the term "pure swing mechanics" because IMO there's often a significant difference between what we see in the cage and what we see on the field.
I'd suggest that if Linear and his guru were to venture out and witness minor league hitters in a practice environment, they'd probably have a very difficult time picking out the guys who will succeed at a higher level. Other than the few really elite talents, the herd starts to bunch up more and more as you climb the ladder. I'd suggest that in pro ball, there are few hitters that are not pretty solid mechanically.
In football, we marvel when a guy like Tom Brady or Joe Montana comes along and, despite not fitting the physical model we all want, he succeeds like a mother.I've come to believe very strongly that the athletes who succeed at the highest level are the ones whose brain is able to process information well enough (slow down the action)so that their physical talents can succeed at that level.
I think this is true for every level of competition...from HS to college..college to pro.
In baseball hitting, this manifests itself in a player's ability to adjust to that "better" curveball..that fastball with a little more cheese and movement. It shows up in the ability to recognize pitches he can and cannot hit well.
In other words, how often does a hitter give himself the opportunity to put that grooved swing on the right pitch?
Unfortunately, this ability is not quantifiable, and the only way of determining it is to play the game.
Hence...the 50 round player draft and the layers of minor league ball.

quote:

Originally posted by rbinaz:
I'd suggest that if Linear and his guru were to venture out and witness minor league hitters in a practice environment, they'd probably have a very difficult time picking out the guys who will succeed at a higher level...

And neither can mlb baseball so what does this prove?

However, if you sent me video clips of 100 hitters I bet I can tell you which ones won't make it without a significant change in their swing.

And, if you sent me those hitters I could define a good swing to them, suggest what they are doing wrong and what has to change and why.

The others fall into your mental category.

What percentage is which, I don't know. But I'm quite sure it's a large percentage that struggle with mechanics.

Troy

I don't have enough overhead clips to comment. I've only seen a few....Rose, Robinson, Williams, Manny. Each look a little different.

But, I sure like hook the hand path better than extend toward the pitcher.

troy,

I know a lot of coaches who teach the same thing as your son's instructor.

Thanks ...Linear/PG ...both of you....the more I look the more I see that there are many MLB hitters on each side of this (Glaus/Renteria seem to stay connected forever)..Although it is hard to see on the non-overhead shots... Some I've heard say "the ball is gone so why does it matter"? Thanks again

Which of these three minor leaguers have a chance?



No cheating!!

I know nothing about this, but I like the middle hitter's swing better. Just thought I'd share...

The question on the table is which one has a chance.

I'll answer your question later.

I'd like to see what the posters are capable of seeing.

I think we'd need to see these guys hitting an 85 mph slider to make a judgement on their future.

I like the 1st guy. A leverage hitter who extends nicely through the zone and most important to me, he keeps his head on the ball all the way through.

answer....all of them

My guess is that #3 is somebody we all know pretty well, but is shown here very early in his development. Then again, I've been wrong many times before.

How bout it Linear? Who are they?

WOW! I ask a little question, tune out for a day and look what happens. I sure didn't expect to start all this...

There was a reference to a video clip of McGwire's swing and another a video clip of Chipper Jones, but the only clips I saw were those in the message just above MN-Mom. Is there a part of this site where those clips are kept that I've missed?

As to Linear's question re the 3 clips, they appear pretty much the same to me...aren't they all the same person? Maybe I need to see a clip of someone with an exaggerated version of a "long through the zone" swing.

I appreciate the input of all who actually attempted to answer the question...

MN-Mom: Hi! How's Joe doing?

I'd like a few more replys before I spill the beans.

No one expects comments from **********...but I would expect comments from others.

News at 6:00........or 10:00

The clips raise the question with me stride/no-stride... I'm becoming more and more convinced that no-stride is the way to go..especially for younger kids .We see no drop in batspeed, in fact increases when done correctly. Many of our kids work no stride in the off-season then tend to go back to a short stride in game conditions.

Clips at www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

As long as you have a uniform on you have a chance. I like the swing on the left the best.

We have two hitting off the tee and one hitting off front side soft toss (it looks like) Would like to see all three off the tee for ideal comparison. I like #2 the best, but would guess linear might like #3 the best because it appears he gets the "most" rotation.

But to answer the question --- They all have a chance!

Just for the fun of it:

#1 High average singles/doubles
#2 Good average w/ some power
#3 Low average w/ big power

I go with #2