So...
Say something new.
Your looking at a backward chaining drill. Not the entire swing.
Your guys will never rotate properly. You'll create momentum spinners. Players whose upper and lower halves are disconnected.........but their hand are back.
Ours will learn to rotate properly and how to turn into the ball.
Add ons come later.
If my players won't yell at me at the top of their lungs when they are frustrated, mad at themselves, mad at their progress or mad at me.......I don't want to coach em.
They don't show enough interest.
In fact, you can learn real quickly which ones have the determination to see it through.
I don't like wasting time with the others.
It's called the Arena. If your skin is too thin....don't enter it.
They don't show enough interest.
In fact, you can learn real quickly which ones have the determination to see it through.
I don't like wasting time with the others.
It's called the Arena. If your skin is too thin....don't enter it.
I have read some very interesting and instructive advice here. There is still Too much enfasis put on Fancy Schmany Terms.
The smartest movie character of all time may be Will Hunting. But his psych proved that his was all theory and limited experience. We gain experience by teaching, coaching, playing, scouting and being around others who have done it and taught it longer and better.
Short to the ball: Hands coming to the hitting zone in the shortest, quickest and most direct fashion.
Long through the ball: Extending arms after the swing creates more forward motion, does not slow the swing down as quickly and provides a longer hitting plane, which can compensate for off speed pitches, after the hitter has made the choice to get his hands in the hitting zone. The longer the hitting plane, the more likely there will be contact.
All who have decided to share their opinions and not insist their's is the only way, are greatly appreciated by me.
#1 hitter and Manny are also sliding their back foot forward during contact, also known as the blast system or leverage type hitting. This is a great power stride and has been a successful approach for those who already have hitting experience.
Did most of you notice that both #2 and 3 were opening there shoulders so much that their head was abandoning the hitting zone early? Not #1 or Manny though.
The smartest movie character of all time may be Will Hunting. But his psych proved that his was all theory and limited experience. We gain experience by teaching, coaching, playing, scouting and being around others who have done it and taught it longer and better.
Short to the ball: Hands coming to the hitting zone in the shortest, quickest and most direct fashion.
Long through the ball: Extending arms after the swing creates more forward motion, does not slow the swing down as quickly and provides a longer hitting plane, which can compensate for off speed pitches, after the hitter has made the choice to get his hands in the hitting zone. The longer the hitting plane, the more likely there will be contact.
All who have decided to share their opinions and not insist their's is the only way, are greatly appreciated by me.
#1 hitter and Manny are also sliding their back foot forward during contact, also known as the blast system or leverage type hitting. This is a great power stride and has been a successful approach for those who already have hitting experience.
Did most of you notice that both #2 and 3 were opening there shoulders so much that their head was abandoning the hitting zone early? Not #1 or Manny though.
The back foot is the last place you should look to see the quality of a swing.
Jason Bay's back foot is almost flat on the ground on many of his hits.
Others, completely off the ground.
And everything in between.
It's further up the chain, sir.
Jason Bay's back foot is almost flat on the ground on many of his hits.
Others, completely off the ground.
And everything in between.
It's further up the chain, sir.
Linear-
I do like backward chaining,somewhat moreso in throwing than swinging.
I think (teaching throwing to young kids/novices without already ingrained horrible overcoached unnatural habits) it's nice to do both forward and backward chaining and long toss and burnout.
It's also nice to teach throwing and swinging the same day becasue sequences are very similar. Golf is good in or out of season.
Donny puts the emphasis here on the forward chaining with the VERY important emphasis on going far enough back in the swing and getting it right from the very point that rhythmic pre-swing activity is interrupted to start the negative move coil.
Backwards chaining is good too, but the question comes up "how do you backward chain the right way ?" becasue the idea is to simplify learning how postures should be taken and moved through from the end back to get the overall motion right most easily.But there are many important small details to get right that can make a huge difference in the success of trial and error.
The GURU has not been very forthcoming about this as far as I know. I left the GURU before the CD came out and have not seen it,so I don't know if he ever pronounced, but I think he has been waiting for someone else to figure it out becasue he isn;t sure and does not want to be seen as a revisionist.
In the meantime,it is obvious that all along some successful teacher/analysts already have a good idea derived empirically/experientially with good results consistent with the high level pattern (which the GURU - easier typing than N Y M A N - does not understand/approaches with faulty cause/effect analysis).
Epstein:
bat on deltoid.torque drill.
bat on deltoid.numbers drill.
bat on deltoid. enforcer (close fence drill- once feel of connection has been learned this forces keeping hands in, shortens swing radius for quickness and encourages staying upright- bending over too much slows swing and hinders plane adjustment- not understood by GURU).
repeat sequence hands free.Much lower body/weight shift and some arm action description.
Mankin-
First learn connection to rotation of body with one arm back arm drill (accomplishes similar thing to bat on deltoid/teaching avoidance of tophand dominance).
Swing into heavy bag to learn contact point and timing (max batspeed at bag/desired contact point).
Then add lead arm/bottom hand and learn feel of pulling swing from front/hooking handpath without iconnecting.
Then add back arm action that enhances loading- helps to focus on this in very early stages of swing as buster notes.
Some lower body instruction,no weight shift instruction.
Lau peavy:
Walk-up drill with one arm lead arm, then add back arm in stages-good results with procut on knob too.Top hand on bottom hand,open top hand on bat,then top hand with regular/loose grip,etc
good weight shift and arm action and handpath extension sequence info.
What is the GURUS position ?
I do like backward chaining,somewhat moreso in throwing than swinging.
I think (teaching throwing to young kids/novices without already ingrained horrible overcoached unnatural habits) it's nice to do both forward and backward chaining and long toss and burnout.
It's also nice to teach throwing and swinging the same day becasue sequences are very similar. Golf is good in or out of season.
Donny puts the emphasis here on the forward chaining with the VERY important emphasis on going far enough back in the swing and getting it right from the very point that rhythmic pre-swing activity is interrupted to start the negative move coil.
Backwards chaining is good too, but the question comes up "how do you backward chain the right way ?" becasue the idea is to simplify learning how postures should be taken and moved through from the end back to get the overall motion right most easily.But there are many important small details to get right that can make a huge difference in the success of trial and error.
The GURU has not been very forthcoming about this as far as I know. I left the GURU before the CD came out and have not seen it,so I don't know if he ever pronounced, but I think he has been waiting for someone else to figure it out becasue he isn;t sure and does not want to be seen as a revisionist.
In the meantime,it is obvious that all along some successful teacher/analysts already have a good idea derived empirically/experientially with good results consistent with the high level pattern (which the GURU - easier typing than N Y M A N - does not understand/approaches with faulty cause/effect analysis).
Epstein:
bat on deltoid.torque drill.
bat on deltoid.numbers drill.
bat on deltoid. enforcer (close fence drill- once feel of connection has been learned this forces keeping hands in, shortens swing radius for quickness and encourages staying upright- bending over too much slows swing and hinders plane adjustment- not understood by GURU).
repeat sequence hands free.Much lower body/weight shift and some arm action description.
Mankin-
First learn connection to rotation of body with one arm back arm drill (accomplishes similar thing to bat on deltoid/teaching avoidance of tophand dominance).
Swing into heavy bag to learn contact point and timing (max batspeed at bag/desired contact point).
Then add lead arm/bottom hand and learn feel of pulling swing from front/hooking handpath without iconnecting.
Then add back arm action that enhances loading- helps to focus on this in very early stages of swing as buster notes.
Some lower body instruction,no weight shift instruction.
Lau peavy:
Walk-up drill with one arm lead arm, then add back arm in stages-good results with procut on knob too.Top hand on bottom hand,open top hand on bat,then top hand with regular/loose grip,etc
good weight shift and arm action and handpath extension sequence info.
What is the GURUS position ?
It has nothing do to with the terms, I mean chain. It is the complete swing and approach I'm speaking about.
Linear,
I don’t have the gun, so I won’t be pullin any triggers. Truth is I have never once asked for anything to be deleted on this site let alone asked to have someone banned. I just think you are a valuable asset and would hate to see someone else pull the trigger!
I don’t need to do the pencil thing to realize the affect rotation can have. It’s a very old concept that was taught 50 years ago. My grandfather once told me the secret to hitting was how fast you can move your belly button from the load to facing the pitcher. While later I learned this tip was not totally accurate, it quickly taught me the value of rotation.
Regarding strong hands, here’s an experiment you can try… Get into your very best contact position with barrel slightly behind hands. Have some one try to push your bat backwards to where it started. You will easily prevent this from happening even if you did not have very strong hands. Now get in the same ideal contact position with the barrel even with your hands or better yet slightly ahead of your hands. Or adjust your contact point to a more outside, low or high location even with barrel behind hands. Now, have someone try to push the bat backwards in the swing path. You will quickly understand the real big value in hand strength.
Swingbuster,
You mentioned that all great swings are circular!
What do you mean? Do you mean “perfectly” circular? I’m trying to remember the last time I’ve even seen a bad swing that wasn’t somewhat circular.
I don’t have the gun, so I won’t be pullin any triggers. Truth is I have never once asked for anything to be deleted on this site let alone asked to have someone banned. I just think you are a valuable asset and would hate to see someone else pull the trigger!
I don’t need to do the pencil thing to realize the affect rotation can have. It’s a very old concept that was taught 50 years ago. My grandfather once told me the secret to hitting was how fast you can move your belly button from the load to facing the pitcher. While later I learned this tip was not totally accurate, it quickly taught me the value of rotation.
Regarding strong hands, here’s an experiment you can try… Get into your very best contact position with barrel slightly behind hands. Have some one try to push your bat backwards to where it started. You will easily prevent this from happening even if you did not have very strong hands. Now get in the same ideal contact position with the barrel even with your hands or better yet slightly ahead of your hands. Or adjust your contact point to a more outside, low or high location even with barrel behind hands. Now, have someone try to push the bat backwards in the swing path. You will quickly understand the real big value in hand strength.
Swingbuster,
You mentioned that all great swings are circular!
What do you mean? Do you mean “perfectly” circular? I’m trying to remember the last time I’ve even seen a bad swing that wasn’t somewhat circular.
Swingbreaker forward chains before he backward chains.
That is the problem.
Quality rotation and connection are not properly learned. His students will get the bat blasted out of their hands because of the built in delay in their swings. Can work with young kids. Won't work further up the food chain.
Backward chaining teaches a rock solid base of rotation and connection, from which you can add a "running start".
If he were talking to people who already have a good base of rotation and connection, and he was spewing his theory onto them, I'd leave him alone. They may have success.
But, he's not. And in the process he's misleading kids.
That is the problem.
Quality rotation and connection are not properly learned. His students will get the bat blasted out of their hands because of the built in delay in their swings. Can work with young kids. Won't work further up the food chain.
Backward chaining teaches a rock solid base of rotation and connection, from which you can add a "running start".
If he were talking to people who already have a good base of rotation and connection, and he was spewing his theory onto them, I'd leave him alone. They may have success.
But, he's not. And in the process he's misleading kids.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
...You will quickly understand the real big value in hand strength...
The next time that comes up in a game I'll give it some thought.
But, I don't expect it to come up. The bat is never brought to contact, held there and then started again.
Your granddad was a smart guy. Pay attention to what he said and learn to generate the force with the body and direct that force with posture, through the hands with good timing to the pitch.
The best cause efffect analysis to explain Manny's trajectory adjustment is Epstein.
Offspeed will require more wait time. Weight shift is slowed/more weight kept on back by more back leg sit. Hand cok is prolonged (scap loading/hand hiding). As the swing proceeds the back shoulder/scap is lowered (opposite of "leveling out the swing/setting sites higher") which creates a longer more uppercutting swing which matches timing and trajectory of low/dropping pitch.
If it's a heater,he will have the weight go forward more to get the axis more upright for high ball. Shoulders will stay more level and hands will lead bathead more at contact.
For low heater, he can always drop the back shoulder a little which keeps the axis from tilting any farther forward and produces the longer more extended swing (this resembles the golf swing the most).
As Epstein explains, it's axis and shoulder tilt, not the ridiculous bend at waist thing that is key to adjusting plane and acceleration timing within plane.
Offspeed will require more wait time. Weight shift is slowed/more weight kept on back by more back leg sit. Hand cok is prolonged (scap loading/hand hiding). As the swing proceeds the back shoulder/scap is lowered (opposite of "leveling out the swing/setting sites higher") which creates a longer more uppercutting swing which matches timing and trajectory of low/dropping pitch.
If it's a heater,he will have the weight go forward more to get the axis more upright for high ball. Shoulders will stay more level and hands will lead bathead more at contact.
For low heater, he can always drop the back shoulder a little which keeps the axis from tilting any farther forward and produces the longer more extended swing (this resembles the golf swing the most).
As Epstein explains, it's axis and shoulder tilt, not the ridiculous bend at waist thing that is key to adjusting plane and acceleration timing within plane.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...not the ridiculous bend at waist thing that is key to adjusting plane and acceleration timing within plane.
tom.********
Thanks. I read the whole thing this time.
You left s e t p r o too soon. You clearly don't understand the "bend at the waist thing".
That "bend at the waist thing" is awesome. But, you have to understand it. And, once you do, it's really obvious in high level swings. It's instrumental in establishing the swing plane, loading/unloading, and in creating momentum.
BTW...what's the difference between your axis tilt and your perception of the "bend at the waist thing".
Back foot sequence is a key videoanalysis marker for me,not much of a teaching cue.
The GURU disciples I have seen have uniformly lacked the necessary anti bug squishing/heel leads toe type back foot action that is often seen in a high level swing (see Glauss or Lugo and others at the youthbaseball site). This requires a good upper body load/coil and the same sequence is universally necessary even in players without the video landmark. Without this well sequenced positive move, they do not get good upper body coil and push too much from backside,just like the clips. This will not get to the high level pattern and it isn't something you are likely to add on later because the destination is not understood so the path isn't right unless you luck into it by trial and error ignoring GURU instructions.
Forward chaining alone has worked well for years. Backward chaining might help, BUT details are important.
The GURU disciples I have seen have uniformly lacked the necessary anti bug squishing/heel leads toe type back foot action that is often seen in a high level swing (see Glauss or Lugo and others at the youthbaseball site). This requires a good upper body load/coil and the same sequence is universally necessary even in players without the video landmark. Without this well sequenced positive move, they do not get good upper body coil and push too much from backside,just like the clips. This will not get to the high level pattern and it isn't something you are likely to add on later because the destination is not understood so the path isn't right unless you luck into it by trial and error ignoring GURU instructions.
Forward chaining alone has worked well for years. Backward chaining might help, BUT details are important.
HBH
We believe that the high level swing involves the batter's ability to work the large muscles of the top half of his body against the lower half. The key to power production lies in the players ability to load the upper body properly and maintain this position into foot plant.
The HBH's design allows the coach to teach upper body mechanics and positioning that are critical to rotary power. If the player can be taught how to form the upper body box and then maintain it until the foot lands on the activator string then he will find himself in the optimal 'torque position" at launch on every swing. Furthermore, if he can maintain this upper body box through the early part of the rotation he will have an optimized, quick , and compact swing.
The teaching process can be as simple as loading the shoulders into a connected position as you stride to activate the popper. The consistent ball presentation into the hitting zone, slightly inside the lead foot, and AT foot plant totally prevents lunging and requires hip rotation to launch the bat through shoulder rotation. Now , this kinetic chain connecting the upper and lower hemisphere builds the midsection torque and turns the shoulders into the plane of the pitch. The bat path follows the momentum plane of the shoulders into the ball.
At this drill station we coach the first part of the chain/ loading and maintaining that into stride landing....those are the two things kids cannot do. This is where we start the process. You cannot rotate against a bad upper body set up. Go to the ball park and watch how many kids get to foot plant with the upper body box intact. As you say " we add the rest later". You and the guru don't own one and know all about it. Amazing
HS Team made final four with only three seniors and scored more runs on the eventual State Champs( who we led until a bottom of 7 HR) than all the other teams combined.....they are not getting too screwed up Linear
We believe that the high level swing involves the batter's ability to work the large muscles of the top half of his body against the lower half. The key to power production lies in the players ability to load the upper body properly and maintain this position into foot plant.
The HBH's design allows the coach to teach upper body mechanics and positioning that are critical to rotary power. If the player can be taught how to form the upper body box and then maintain it until the foot lands on the activator string then he will find himself in the optimal 'torque position" at launch on every swing. Furthermore, if he can maintain this upper body box through the early part of the rotation he will have an optimized, quick , and compact swing.
The teaching process can be as simple as loading the shoulders into a connected position as you stride to activate the popper. The consistent ball presentation into the hitting zone, slightly inside the lead foot, and AT foot plant totally prevents lunging and requires hip rotation to launch the bat through shoulder rotation. Now , this kinetic chain connecting the upper and lower hemisphere builds the midsection torque and turns the shoulders into the plane of the pitch. The bat path follows the momentum plane of the shoulders into the ball.
At this drill station we coach the first part of the chain/ loading and maintaining that into stride landing....those are the two things kids cannot do. This is where we start the process. You cannot rotate against a bad upper body set up. Go to the ball park and watch how many kids get to foot plant with the upper body box intact. As you say " we add the rest later". You and the guru don't own one and know all about it. Amazing
HS Team made final four with only three seniors and scored more runs on the eventual State Champs( who we led until a bottom of 7 HR) than all the other teams combined.....they are not getting too screwed up Linear
linear,
to me contact position is of utmost importance. We used to have hitters get into contact position with the bat against a pole or unmovable object and use this as an isometric excercise. It really helped in my estimation because it did two different important things.
1 - It helped strengthen the hands, forearms.
2 - It gave them a real feel for that perfect contact position.
Once a hitter would understand and feel the best contact positions for different locations, it became much easier to work on getting there! And they really wanted to get to that position.
This is not an exception to anyone's ideas, it's justan addition to those ideas.
to me contact position is of utmost importance. We used to have hitters get into contact position with the bat against a pole or unmovable object and use this as an isometric excercise. It really helped in my estimation because it did two different important things.
1 - It helped strengthen the hands, forearms.
2 - It gave them a real feel for that perfect contact position.
Once a hitter would understand and feel the best contact positions for different locations, it became much easier to work on getting there! And they really wanted to get to that position.
This is not an exception to anyone's ideas, it's justan addition to those ideas.
I'm with you Tom. I didn't say that the plane made up for off speed pitches, but some hitters get their hands out too early, when they don't recognize the off speed stuff soon enough, or when they're fooled. A longer hittng plane Can compensate for this, but it doesn't necessarily always help. Hitting is so much about adjustments.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Back foot sequence is a key videoanalysis marker for me,not much of a teaching cue.
quote:the same sequence is universally necessary even in players without the video landmark
How valuable of a marker can it be when some of the best in the world do it and some don't.
Pg, thats reall life stuff, and the drills work as many of us have used them and seen improvement.
bending at waist to match plane interrupts the desired sit/down/up action that is part of the more upright/adjustable swing.
As a "truth detector" look at clips:
IF bend at waist were the way to adjust, THEN guys would be WAY bent over for the inside low ball. They don't do this. Must be some reason.
reason is, the more you bend over(think of body/trunk as torsion bar), the more you get inefficient coil and uncoil becaseu rotation creates too much separation (more separation the more you bend over and try to "turn like heck from middle out") in the low parts of the chain away from the shoulders so that quickness and late adjustment are not possible.
Yeager explains well how weight shifts and the lead leg action is used to assist the body in efficient momentum transfer,discrediting the GURU's misguided/lack of understanding of weight shift/balance/momentum transfer that even a fancy name like "pelvic loading" or "vertical loading" can not hide.
Hope your defense gets you back in with the GURU, he needs you (believe it or not, you know more than he does).
As a "truth detector" look at clips:
IF bend at waist were the way to adjust, THEN guys would be WAY bent over for the inside low ball. They don't do this. Must be some reason.
reason is, the more you bend over(think of body/trunk as torsion bar), the more you get inefficient coil and uncoil becaseu rotation creates too much separation (more separation the more you bend over and try to "turn like heck from middle out") in the low parts of the chain away from the shoulders so that quickness and late adjustment are not possible.
Yeager explains well how weight shifts and the lead leg action is used to assist the body in efficient momentum transfer,discrediting the GURU's misguided/lack of understanding of weight shift/balance/momentum transfer that even a fancy name like "pelvic loading" or "vertical loading" can not hide.
Hope your defense gets you back in with the GURU, he needs you (believe it or not, you know more than he does).
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
...You and the guru don't own one and know all about it.
Is your memory that bad or is this another demonstration ******************. Not only am I a customer and paid for the device, you sent me the prototype for my opinion.
quote:HS Team made final four with only three seniors and scored more runs on the eventual State Champs( who we led until a bottom of 7 HR) than all the other teams combined.....they are not getting too screwed up Linear
So, your goal is for them to play high school ball? You should have said that long ago.
My goal is for them to reach their genetic potential. Which I believe is through college with almost everyone.
Since you brought it up, this is what's wrong with the device.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
reason is, the more you bend over(think of body/trunk as torsion bar), the more you get inefficient coil and uncoil becaseu rotation creates too much separation (more separation the more you bend over and try to "turn like heck from middle out") in the low parts of the chain away from the shoulders so that quickness and late adjustment are not possible.
A demonstration of a belief with a nontruth used to support the belief.
You are missing the point of the bend at the waist and how you actually do it. The degree o bend may be exaggerated in young players to get them to understand the "feel" of what it does.
But, after experience they can get that feel without the exaggeration.
Again, you left before this good stuff came out.
This is well known and studied in golf--more bend-- more separation with rotation. Then, add on top of this trying to just rotate middle out without good upper body resistance. Might work with hot metal bats, not for sweetpsot control and quickness without giving up too much power.It is a big difference in the one vs 2 plane swing.
bend over one plane works fine in golf becasue you don't have to adjust on fly.
Same thing happens in hitting.
As BBscout said, getting the marginal ones to succeed in HS is a darn good goal.
As buster said, your swing might best accomplish that in fastpitch.
bend over one plane works fine in golf becasue you don't have to adjust on fly.
Same thing happens in hitting.
As BBscout said, getting the marginal ones to succeed in HS is a darn good goal.
As buster said, your swing might best accomplish that in fastpitch.
quote:You clearly don't understand the "bend at the waist thing".
That "bend at the waist thing" is awesome. But, you have to understand it. And, once you do, it's really obvious in high level swings. It's instrumental in establishing the swing plane, loading/unloading, and in creating momentum.
BINGO BINGO BINGO Linear, you are da man!!!!!!
This is the key to the center I have been referring to. Think center-think center-think center!!!!
Gwynn, Rose, are two who did it well and probably didn't even realize it early in their careers.
Swing-Good info on earlier question I asked, thanks.
Tom-Also nice contributions, thanks.
PG-Loved the wisdom of past generations, thanks.
This is an excellent thread, thanks all involved.
Shep loves HSBBW
AND also a special thanks to Troy99 and AB for their contributions.quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
This is well known and studied in golf--more bend-- more separation with rotation.
Who cares about golf.
But, even if true, how much bend does Barry have? How much does Pujols have? How much do almost all of them have?
That's enough if you also "do the other thing".
quote:So, your goal is for them to play high school ball? You should have said that long ago.
Linear ...the coach for the stars!
Your tactics never change.
You forgot the "genetic potential" part of my post and changed it to "the stars".
You haven't commented on the fact that I have two HBH after claiming I've never used it.
It does get consistently harder for you to talk hitting, doesn't it. Therefore, the change of direction.
You forgot the "genetic potential" part of my post and changed it to "the stars".
You haven't commented on the fact that I have two HBH after claiming I've never used it.
It does get consistently harder for you to talk hitting, doesn't it. Therefore, the change of direction.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
linear,
to me contact position is of utmost importance.
Absolutely, if you don't know where you're going you'll go anywere.
quote:We used to have hitters get into contact position with the bat against a pole or unmovable object and use this as an isometric excercise.
Key words are "use to", I hope. Other than to memorize the position, the goal, the rest has little value. The isometric part seems useless to me. The force is coming from somewhere else. Learning to apply force with the hands is not part of a good swing. Before everyone gets bent out of shape, yes, more strength is better than less strength.
Barry has a huge amount of leg flex/extend he uses, not so much bend at waist.
It is not surprising you and the guru would not understand the coil factors becasue you are alos the ones who do not believe there is such a thing as xfactor or xfactor stretch in spite if excellent motionanalysis data in highlevel mlb hitters supporting it.
That was a good thread in batspeed where the guru ("Oreally")took on the forces of evil and made a lot of confusing statements about balance,etc.
I can see why he doesn't go to other boards much any more.
Are you just waiting for more secret info ?
www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10455.html
It is not surprising you and the guru would not understand the coil factors becasue you are alos the ones who do not believe there is such a thing as xfactor or xfactor stretch in spite if excellent motionanalysis data in highlevel mlb hitters supporting it.
That was a good thread in batspeed where the guru ("Oreally")took on the forces of evil and made a lot of confusing statements about balance,etc.
I can see why he doesn't go to other boards much any more.
Are you just waiting for more secret info ?
www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10455.html
Barry,#600-
Bend at waist or sit or does it matter.
We only see what we can see.
www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg
Bend at waist or sit or does it matter.
We only see what we can see.
www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg
Great info...all of you I can't tell you how much this discussion helps me... Would still be interested in the views of PG,Tom,Linear and SB as it relates to TEACHING follow-thru...I work alot with 11-12's and get conflicting advice from various local (but generally knowledgabe) hitting coaches. Keep up the great swing analysis....I would advise to delete the personal stuff but it is aslo quite entertaining in moderation....
linear,
Discounting the value of this excercise would be a mistake. If you were to use it in addition to the other things you teach I believe you might change your mind.
We all know this position is only part of a moving action. But to me, a very critical part. I would guess that if you asked your hitters to get into this perfect contact position (defined by your own principles) with bat against unmovable object... You would be surprised by the adjustments you would want to make.
Discounting the value of this excercise would be a mistake. If you were to use it in addition to the other things you teach I believe you might change your mind.
We all know this position is only part of a moving action. But to me, a very critical part. I would guess that if you asked your hitters to get into this perfect contact position (defined by your own principles) with bat against unmovable object... You would be surprised by the adjustments you would want to make.
How you can possible look at that clip and not see bend at the waist is beyond me.
There is very close to 90 degrees between his right side and his right leg at the frame before foot plant.
And, that is the ultimate clip of using the pelvis properly, due to the bend, and turning into the ball.
I was looking for a clip of Bonds myself but my external hard drive is acting up. Thanks for the perfect example.
There is very close to 90 degrees between his right side and his right leg at the frame before foot plant.
And, that is the ultimate clip of using the pelvis properly, due to the bend, and turning into the ball.
I was looking for a clip of Bonds myself but my external hard drive is acting up. Thanks for the perfect example.
PG
I enjoy the discussion with you.
I have little concern for the forces the arms/hands can develop.
Put them at the arm pit, let the rotation generate the force, direct it in the right direction with posture.
If fooled, let your hands help you recover. But, don't build the hands into the good swing.
....................... Your isometric drills resemble their misunderstanding about the heavy bag. There is no pushing going on at contact. The barrel is on autopilot. The force is being delivered through the hands but not by the hands.
Until a kid learns to load/unload his center, he will not live his complete genetic baseball life. And, for most kids, the hands are "in the way of" learning to load/unload the center.
I enjoy the discussion with you.
I have little concern for the forces the arms/hands can develop.
Put them at the arm pit, let the rotation generate the force, direct it in the right direction with posture.
If fooled, let your hands help you recover. But, don't build the hands into the good swing.
....................... Your isometric drills resemble their misunderstanding about the heavy bag. There is no pushing going on at contact. The barrel is on autopilot. The force is being delivered through the hands but not by the hands.
Until a kid learns to load/unload his center, he will not live his complete genetic baseball life. And, for most kids, the hands are "in the way of" learning to load/unload the center.
We can only see what we can see.
Seeing is very subjective which is one reason motionanalysis is good data.
You probably don't see xfactor either.
When I look at the Barry clip, there is for example a prominent "sit" between frames 7 and eight. This appears to me to be primarily due to flex in back leg, NOT bend at waist, and NOT rotation of back leg.
But we can only see what we can/want to I suppose.
Seeing is very subjective which is one reason motionanalysis is good data.
You probably don't see xfactor either.
When I look at the Barry clip, there is for example a prominent "sit" between frames 7 and eight. This appears to me to be primarily due to flex in back leg, NOT bend at waist, and NOT rotation of back leg.
But we can only see what we can/want to I suppose.
quote:Put them at the arm pit, let the rotation generate the force, direct it in the right direction with posture.
AGREE
If fooled, let your hands help you recover. But, don't build the hands into the good swing.
AGREE
Until a kid learns to load/unload his center, he will not live his complete genetic baseball life. And, for most kids, the hands are "in the way of" learning to load/unload the center.
AGREE if the first move is forward or the arms get long and away from core
...Whether or not all the other things you say are true, of which I believe much is questionable, until you can show me a frame where Bonds is not bent at the waist, you're going to have a hard time convincing people that a bend at the waist is not good.quote:...NOT bend at waist
quote:Learning to apply force with the hands is not part of a good swing
I agree 100%
quote:If fooled, let your hands help you recover
I agree 100%
Thus the importance of strength in those hands and forearms. I like all these discussions and must admit I know longer teach hitting. I don't always understand the new terms, but can figure them out after awhile. I enjoy hearing about the true new stuff.
However, some (not all) of the fancy terms I hear are describing things I was taught as a child. They're not new, they're just different words describing the same old stuff. Guess that's OK though! There are some very good innovative things that have come out on these threads. Makes me wish I had more time to study all this stuff!
Point is, he is not using bend at waist as some sort of major adjustment here. Sometimes he sits more sometimes less. To understand adjustments in high level swing, Epstein has best cause effect explanations.Not perfect, but light years ahead of the GURU.
Are you allowed to say "sit" by Yeager???
There is more in that bend at the waist than a counter balance to his sit or an adustment to pitch location. Explore how to load by doing it. That is the part you're missing. The HUGE part.
There is more in that bend at the waist than a counter balance to his sit or an adustment to pitch location. Explore how to load by doing it. That is the part you're missing. The HUGE part.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
...However, some (not all) of the fancy terms I hear are describing things I was taught as a child. They're not new, they're just different words describing the same old stuff. Guess that's OK though! There are some very good innovative things that have come out on these threads. Makes me wish I had more time to study all this stuff!
No one is claiming a "new" swing. The swing Babe used, Ted used, Joe used, Rose used, Barry uses.......are basically the same with different bells and whistles. Although, a claim can be made that no one has ever swung it like Barry swings it. THE most efficient swing ever IMHO.
What is new and better is the understanding of what they are doing and the description of what they are doing.......some of it requires new terms.
"Carry the mass" instead of "stride". A HUGE difference.
"Scap load" instead of "counter rotate". A HUGE differene.
"Posture" instead of "stance". A HUGE difference.
etc etc.
Thanks for posting Brads image...he hit a dead BP practice ball thrown 50 mph out of the baseball field and onto the football 20 yard line on Thursday. Not bad for 10th grade 160 lbs.
Don't worry .....He gets it Linear.
Don't worry .....He gets it Linear.
