Short to zone...Long through zone

quote:

"Scap load" instead of "counter rotate". A HUGE differene.

What about the hips Linear...How can Ted Williams say the coiling of the hips is the most important part of hitting and you guys never mention it.

No neg move is poison. If there is an element of disconnection in Brads swing it isn't the HBH it is poor neg hip move.

Posture ( to include the lead arm great), connection ( but where and when and how) and rotate ( but how with no neg hip move).

THree words that are fine but leave the lesson untaught for many

HIPs Hips Hips Hips Hips HIps...where are they in the formula.

watch his rear hip and watch gurus
http://home.comcast.net/~karla.mcnurlin/2b1b.gif

I bet he'll have great slowpitch softball success.

quote:

What is new and better is the understanding of what they are doing and the description of what they are doing.......some of it requires new terms.

"Carry the mass" instead of "stride". A HUGE difference.

"Scap load" instead of "counter rotate". A HUGE differene.

"Posture" instead of "stance". A HUGE difference.

linear, I understand that and realize the importance of new more complete discriptions.

However, (forgive the confidence) I feel that a young hitter can be taught…

How to “stride” and “carry his mass”, wouldn’t this just be the CORRECT stride? Besides, this is not one of the more confusing terms to me.

How to load correctly without even mentioning “scap load” or “counter rotate”. Then wouldn’t the hitter “scap load”. Again I don’t consider these terms real confusing. Though, only really understood exactly what “scap loading” was by reading here. Then realized I’d been teaching it for years without knowing what it was.

Posture – Stance… Proper balance and position in the “stance”. Wouldn’t this equal “posture”? I must admit that I’m not sure I understand exactly what everyone means when they mention posture. So I guess that would be a confusing term to me, despite understanding the meaning of the word.

Actually I get more confused by some of the other terms aside from your examples. I think some words are used to impress rather than to teach. I think it would be neat if young kids could come on here and understand everything and learn without digging out the dictionary. This is not a complaint, but rather an observation. It’s entirely possible, even likely, that those young kids coming here are smarter than I.

I’d like to read more about hitting regarding the importance of (it does happen at times) balance and rhythm.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

What about the hips Linear...How can Ted Williams say the coiling of the hips is the most important part of hitting and you guys never mention it.

Just what do you think the load/unload that we talk nonstop about, has to do with.

You and Tom are really misinformed about what s e t p r o teaches.

quote:

You and Tom are really misinformed about what s e t p r o teaches

they have a name hips...what do they do and why. Why is that guy posted not using his?? And your teaching mnor league guys. His hair grew out and still no hips

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
...If there is an element of disconnection in Brads swing it isn't the HBH it is poor neg hip move...

Why would you expect him to have a negative move?

How can you have a negative move and use the HBH? Next to impossible. At least impossible to do it correctly.

The load/unload of the hips is almost one move. Instantaneous. No pause between load and unload. No such thing as loaded.....just loading or unloading.

You've taught him what he's doing. He learned it well.

And will never learn a negative move on the HBH. Have to wait for the ball too long.



That's been obvious and talked about ever since this clip was made. But, you've got inventory to move.

You're not finally "getting it" are you?

Linear has hit the nail on the head with the bend>

Allow the Shep to explain why he thinks so.

With the bend> The strongest muscles in your body are activated and take over in the rotational process of the unlocking mechanisms of the swing. Is that simple enough???

The muscles that tense up as mentioned by Tom are more than just the back of the legs....also should include glutous muscles, abs, lats, and thighs.

Tom mentioned something yesterday that got my attention refering to the "timing" as in location of inside and outside pitches and front leg getting firmer quicker. That was very good point Tom. AB mentioned something also that got my attention about Hank's body taking over in what it's been trained to do after pitch recognition. In those two clips of Hank Aaron posted the other day by BBscout, it is evident that both of these videoanaylsis conclusions by Tom and AB are right on the money.

Shep

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
...Why is that guy posted not using his?? ...

Maybe because he's never used them before.

Maybe because it was determined that at his age and playing level he better learn to find the swing plane first.

I don't know, but to assume he should be doing everything right at this time is a litte ridiculous. You mentioned earlier the time it takes to change an engrained swing. Does that apply to us or do you just use it for your benefit.

I agree 100% in teaching swing plane/connection before rotation. Especially to a player who plays at a high level and has to show improvement fast. Get him punching base hits regularly, in the gap now and then, build his confidence......then move on.

To take a minor league player, with the swing this guy started with, and start with the hips and not get him on plane would be a HUGE mistake.

I guess bend at waist doesn't involve bend at waist then.

GURU does not understand how hips get initiated from front. Yeager's critique is good.

GURU critique of Yeager/Pujols analysis (replace asterisks with s e t p r o ) :

www.******.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8100

Yeager analysis of GURU analysis:

s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=256

Yeager analysis part2

s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=258

Shawn runs an excellent site.He was really the first to figure out that the guru had no clothes.

Hey Tom, have you abandoned the idea of what is and what causes bat drag?

If not, I'd get out of bed with Yeager real quick. He couldn't be more wrong on this issue. In fact, he teaches that the rear elbow should lead the rear hand.

Linear...good image Cabrerra

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=466207#post466207

pull thread down adn view.

Hands work under load,as rear shoulder up ( scap ) and lead down (rear elbow, hands and hip tuck....neg moves essential to good positive move .


For young kid drill...lead elbow behind belly button at foot plant

A negative move is very important. How you do it is where we disagree. You want the hands to be involved. Somewhere you said they are linked to the hips. Not true.

The real fact coming out today, that you are finally understanding, is the HBH will prevent you from having a negative move. Must be an add on eh? But, I thought there was a link between the hips and the hands and that the first thing that happens is the bottom hand working under the top hand, which loads the hips........yet, the kid using the HBH doesn't do this. I wonder why? Maybe because of the delay that the HBH teaches.......Not a good thing buster. You can't load it with the hands, hold it, put your foot down to trigger the ball, wait for it, and unload it.

No no no. No such thing as loaded.....only loading and unloading.

That was interesting> Thanks for the sites Tom.

The one statement quoted from Zig who runs the biomechanic lab, go figure-LOL, was A+++++++.

Hitting Against Solid Front Side

Quote from Zig>

"The forward swing is then initiated at the ground with the application of force to the back foot. As force is applied to the back foot, it creates a linear shift of weight, at the same time, their is a release of rotational energy around (rotating) from the front foot up to the hip of the front leg (the heal which has dropped during linear rotational shift, to provide a solid front side to hit against".

Very advanced indeed, Tom.

Shep's Listening

I have never agreed with the GURU cause effect.

Remember the original observation was a video landmark occurring in high level swings made by Troy Slinkard the batman of Evergreen. GURU then called it bat drag.

Then GURU told his ex-disciples not to use his patented word.

Since he doesn't understand separation/xfactor (Epstein key to swing is "body torque"),it is impossible for him to find a fix that doesn't create the nonhighlevel hookspin pattern (linear calls this a "quick swing") all true disciples exhibit.

Epstein DOES have students who start off getting the back elbow ahead of the top hand when they take bat off deltoid and go hands free, but he also has students that do this and go on to a high level swing without "bat drag"/without exhibiting the video landmark.

With good loading, bat drag becomes a nonissue in many as trial and error learning proceeds.

The GURU must obsess about turning together and avoiding slop and stopping bat drag and stopping hip slide, etc. because his cause effect/root cause analysis is wrong. His instruction is then nothing but an exercise in compensation that makes learning the highlevel rotational patern unlikely.You can't fool mother nature and get a good coil focussing on the wrong parts of the swing.

These are not either the most direct things to focus on or even similar to the essential details of the high level swing. GURU instructions lead to wrong sequence. Let's take the 3 swings of the player in this thread, p. 5.

Both the tee swings show severe pushing from the back as opposed to initiating hips from front- see Yeager critique for more detail about the fiction of "vertical/pelvic loading".

Knees get closer together. Back knee turns before front knee.This sequence and lower body/thigh configuration are NOT a part of ANY high level swing, but kids are drilled on it over and over. This player still does not do this in the full swing on left, but push is still there and continued "progress" will risk making the full swing push even worse.This is no helpful kind of exaggeration,it's just a new/largely unrelated skill/extraneous stuff wasting learning time and making learning harder.

Fixing batdrag by adjusting posture and connecting and turning like heck and hooking the handpath just spinhooks the body,which is not the high level swing.

Lau knows the high level swing and how to ghet there too.Optimizing coil with a good positive move and pulling the knob and getting a good handpath extension sequence to stay connected (lead arm extension/top hand release) can also get you to the high level pattern which has no bat drag.

Since the cause effect is faulty,then, the guru can fix bat drag and still not get the high level swing.

Are you still obsessing about bat drag and hip slide ?

If so, Donny can help you out.

It is possible that you can add this stuff on later (See Garrett Retka's improvement in both batspeed and timing after using the LAu/Peavy cues after following guru instruction)

but I would not recommend taking that risk.

tom.*******

I quit reading about 3 paragraphs in. Sorry. I just can't.

Can you tell me if you believe the rear elbow can lead the rear hand in a good swing.

I have yet to see a mlb player that does this.

quote:

HBH will prevent you from having a negative move

Step into the pitch using it and see where that leaves you. You can only use it properly with negative moves .

The hips and hands are connected in the brain obviously. There are a little to far apart for anything else. Talk to a few pros if your going to coach the pros.

Are you going to convert all of them to
guru-linguistics...where hips are named pelvic loading etc etc...

Swingbreaker

We started talking about the minor leaguer, his swing and his hitting.

You're having a hard time "holding on".

So, in just the last hour, you've done the following.

Accused me of never having used the HBH when in fact, I have two of them, the prototype and the "real" one. You, in fact, asked me for my opinion, which I gave you.

Then, you accuse us of never talking hips. Well, most hitting discussions are about hips or hands. We are clearly not hands. So we must be hips. AND, if we are constantly talking about the load/unload, which we are, and we don't believe in hands, just what are we loading/unloading?

Then, because you can't think of anyway out of the corner you're in, you bring up the HBH AND then acknowledge that the kid using it doesn't have a negative move. He can't have a negative move and use the product.

Then, you bring up Cabrerra and "claim" his bottom hand works under his top hand" when in fact, it doesn't happen. The angle of the hands,forearms and wrists remains the same throughout and it is his scap load that tips the bat toward the pitcher. The hands are not "working" under or over.

Now, we are linquistics. When, in fact, you are the one changing words from "helping a kid hit his genetic potential" to "coach of the stars". You accuse us of talking about pelvic loading, which is not a new term, which is the equivalent of "loading the hips" and you want to make an issue out of this. If I member correctly, aren't you a vet......surely you've heard of a pelvis.

It's sounds like you're looking for something you can be right on.

finally some effort in rebuttal....

I'll take your role now

wrong again..keep studying

I believe both of you are wrong about hands.

Shep

Sorry you could not plow through that. I said that the videolandmark WAS present in high level swings as noted by the Batman of evergreen.

GURU's analysis about how to get it is faulty and if you follow his instruction,you CAN get this landmark in your swing,BUT your swing will not be the high level pattern,since his cause effect analysis is wrong.

Tom

Can the rear elbow lead the rear hand in a high level swing?

I've never seen a mlb clip that demonstrates this.

SHEP-

More motionanalysis stuff,see any posts by Zig Zigler at batspeed forum for example,esp from March,2003."linear"/teacherman has ignored this data before:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10438.html

"No one is hyping anything here but you, teacherman. I can almost picture you sitting there with your arms crossed and pouting about video swing clips, which you think you can see detailed information."



Even the GURU once opined that studying the swing the way Gideon Ariel did other motions would be interesting, he should appreciate this:

"Phil Cheetham, founder of Skill Technologies is recognized as one of the founders of biomechanical analysis from his early days of work with Dr. Gideon Ariel at the US Olympic Training Center in the early 1980's. Skill's systems are use in many medical research centers to accurately identify joint stresses, postural deficiencies, and potential injuries due to gait, sports, or other physical activities.

"I would much rather trust their 20 plus years of biomechanical analysis experience than anyone I have read so far on this board. At least when it comes to identifying what is happening in a sports movement and the positive and negative effects on performance."



Zig's technology "skillcheck" has been bought out and has a different brand name now,but the apparatus is the same. This is excellent data:

"There are many devices out there, which I am sure you are aware of that allow an athlete or coach to measure bat speed at a given point (typically in MPH). But nothing that allows you to measure the acceleration and deceleration of the bat and body (in degrees per second), except our technology. That is why I am trying to get the message out there to you and to others that we need to take a much closer look at what happens with the body and the segmental speed gains on the way to the bat.

"All of this data comes from 4 sensors, strategically placed on the athlete, which provide "objective measurements" and requires very little interpretation from me. We see the hips, upper torso, head, bat and bottom hand. We don't have to see the legs and arms to know the impact that certain positions of those body parts have on the body. The legs impact the hips, upper torso, which impacts the arms, hands, bat and head.

"As I have stated before our analysis is showing that athletes are not doing what we think they are doing. Because I have studied looked at over 10,000 swings in the last year (with specific detailed data), I can justify any claim that we make. Regardless of what Mr. O'Really [GURU screen name] and others think of Kinesiology, Exercise Physiology and other human sciences, i will continue to disagree."




Zig summarizes/illustrates the purpose of the motionanalysis:

"We are not teaching athletes to swing, we are teaching "coaches what their athletes are doing". There is a HUGE difference. If an athlete, wants to improve, I can give him a few simple drills and strength/flexibility exercises and they will improve, guaranteed! That's because I know exactly what they need to work on, period. I don't have to guess.

"I am in Florida, working with a few pro teams and collegiate teams under a consulting agreement. I have recently spent three hours with Dave [hugens/hitting.com], and I can attest to what he is teaching. He is an advocate of "throw hands and hips will take care of themselves. That is an effective teaching cue. however, it also lends itself to a linear approach. Friday, our technicians will be adding the swings of over 60 Oakland players to our database. I have already analyzed the swings of a couple of Dave's players. As we continue our research, it will help some instructors see the impact of what they are teaching players. I can't tell you if it is the right way or the wrong way. There are many good instructors out there who believe what they are teaching and that it the most positive thing that can happen for an instructor. Once you believe, you can get your players to believe. And success at the plate will follow.

"And yes we have discussed players of his we analyzed over two weeks ago. Any player can change at any age if they know exactly what they need to improve."


For more details about the data see especially:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10571.html

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10663.html

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10511.html

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10533.html

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Barry,#600-

Bend at waist or sit or does it matter.

We only see what we can see.

www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg

Tough angle to tell how much, but I sure see some bend at the waist.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
How you can possible look at that clip and not see bend at the waist is beyond me.

There is very close to 90 degrees between his right side and his right leg at the frame before foot plant.

And, that is the ultimate clip of using the pelvis properly, due to the bend, and turning into the ball.

I was looking for a clip of Bonds myself but my external hard drive is acting up. Thanks for the perfect example.

Again, tough angle, but his posture seems pretty tilted here too:

Quote from Zig:

quote:

throw hands and hips will take care of themselves. That is an effective teaching cue

This quote from Zig I've heard thousands of times as player, scout, instructor, and Coach.

It worked for all those that heard it around me too.

I would also say, "take the barrel to the ball".


Peace Shep

Sandman

Great post, where ya been???


Excellent examples of " The Angle "!!!!

RS

I will check some clips of high level types who are hitting hard/not fooled and see how many vioate the bat drag videolandmark.What is your guess ?

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
Sandman

Great post, where ya been???


Excellent examples of " The Angle "!!!!

RS

I've been lurking in the dark corners, waiting to see who (if anyone) comes outta this alive.

In the clips you can almost see the activated large muscles I mentioned in earlier post from here, no joke!!!

These muscles are the TRUE POWERSOURCE!!!

Come forward by turning with power in rotation.

Peace Shep

Notice I said come forward by turning and not forward by sliding.

Peace Shep

Sup Sandman

Wouldn't a line through their belt show the bend at the waist.

If they aren't bent it would be horizontal. If not.....

I just looked in the mirror.....I was upright but my waist.......off to the gym.

Sandman-Welcome!!!!

I though the GURU/party line was that bend at waist was the main adjustment to match plane so there would be nmore bend at waist for low inside than high inside for example.Supposedly you only wanted to make 2 adjustments- bend at waist and handpath radius.

Barry has lots more flex in legs for low,but waist angle seems to stay about same. Maybe you could look at that more dynamic aspect of the clips.

Glauss clips are often cited as example, but even here I do not see bend at waist as the major adjuster see front view clips from youthbaseball.Maybe a discussion for a separate thread.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Sandman-Welcome!!!!

I though the GURU/party line was that bend at waist was the main adjustment to match plane so there would be nmore bend at waist for low inside than high inside for example.Supposedly you only wanted to make 2 adjustments- bend at waist and handpath radius.

Barry has lots more flex in legs for low,but waist angle seems to stay about same. Maybe you could look at that more dynamic aspect of the clips.

More misinformation. Posture adjustments are made for pitch location. Posture includes more than bend at the waist. Flex in the legs is good. But, bend at the waist is important for another reason. You acknowledge Barry has it.....on all locations...the same in your opinion but he has it. I agree.

Tom

Can the rear elbow lead the rear hand in a high level swing?

I've seen the nike swish bat-mark impression many times on the bats of hitters who do not come forward by turning.

Needs to be perfect half-moon as indicated by AB, and not the Nike-Slash appearance.

What do you think Sand????

Peace Shep

quote:

throw hands and hips will take care of themselves. That is an effective teaching cue

THanks Shep

It is about teaching cues vs clip evaluation and term assignment.

If the hands load ( feel) the hips feel the need to support then negatively and the reverse happens too.

when you script middle action only and kill the brain you can get varying results. What to do when you reach an impasse'? Keep working on rotation. I hear from these people that have hit the wall with middle without the whole swing working together

teaching cues are important in getting a desired response .....how to move the hands and how to move the hips is important. It serves no purpose to wipe them out of the hitting vocabulary.

linear-

I started going through the clip library at youthbaseball. First one I cane across where back albow gets slightly ahead was LUGO

www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/L._Gonzalez03.mpeg

Your dancing Tom.

Gonzo is like many others. As the elbow lowers it gets veritcal and maybe ever so slightly it leads.....but quickly changes.

Pujols does the same thing.

But, if I were you, I'd stay away from Yeager. He teaches to do this.....not to avoid it.

He's clearly wrong. Way out of line. No mlb hitter demonstrates what he talks about and shows on his DVD.

Epstein doesn't understand it either.

The radius of the swing has to change so that the point of rotation is between the hands. It never will if the elbow leads. The elbow becomes the fulcrum producing a long slow swing.

quick question but sort of off topic... when do you load up off a pitcher? do you load when he shows his hip or his arm or does it matter on his velocity

So far linear, we have pushing swing from back which you don't see,there is no xfactor, bend at waist where there is no increasing bend at waist and quick example of elbow getting ahead.

Are you actually looking at the clips?

Linear,

If you insist on going back and editing posts on this thread that have been modified or deleted as as a result of unacceptable language - I will lock this thread.

Please continue with the topic for the benefit of all members.

Thank you.