The hitter on the right is the product of the "down to ball" mentality...and as a result has a longer swing with a swing angle that will produce a ton of pop-ups and ground balls. The farthest left is a better example of using the entire body to swing the bat rather than just the arms...
Linear???
FormerObserver spilled the beans-LOL
Is that why you can't be back till 10 to post about clips???? Gotta empty those carousels in your pool hall. You really are from the school of hard knocks!!!!
Still respect your input and now realize where the attitude comes from.
Enjoy your posts but please respect others, sir.
peace
shep
FormerObserver spilled the beans-LOL
Is that why you can't be back till 10 to post about clips???? Gotta empty those carousels in your pool hall. You really are from the school of hard knocks!!!!
Still respect your input and now realize where the attitude comes from.
Enjoy your posts but please respect others, sir.
peace
shep
same batter in all three images
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:
[QUOTE]Richard Schenck is the owner of Teachers Billiards & Sports Cafe. He has been playing pool for 35 years. He developed his interest in pool while in high school but it wasn't until he was in college that he took the game seriously. After graduating in 1977, he began his high school teaching career. While coaching 3 sports, he still found time to continue his pool hobby.
http://teachersbilliards.com/about.html
Shepster,
You are going to have to change your name to Karmanac.
You are going to have to change your name to Karmanac.
Kris,
"MN-Mom: Hi! How's Joe doing?"
He is excited about his team's chances this year, and is happy with his own improvement from last year (thanks mostly to the help of one of the dads from these forums, Steve Rice).
I can hardly wait for baseball to start! How is your Joe doing? PM me if you prefer...
Julie
"MN-Mom: Hi! How's Joe doing?"
He is excited about his team's chances this year, and is happy with his own improvement from last year (thanks mostly to the help of one of the dads from these forums, Steve Rice).
I can hardly wait for baseball to start! How is your Joe doing? PM me if you prefer...
Julie
best swing on left.
other swings have much worse sequence/push from back/spin.maybe worse in part because they are tee swings swings..hope it isn't the instruction.It could carry over into live swings.
other swings have much worse sequence/push from back/spin.maybe worse in part because they are tee swings swings..hope it isn't the instruction.It could carry over into live swings.
Where's Mr. Linear?????
Wished he'd hurry up!!!! Can't wait to see what he has to say!!!!
The stage is set>
Shep
Wished he'd hurry up!!!! Can't wait to see what he has to say!!!!
The stage is set>
Shep
WOW! After looking at the clips a little closer, I think kb2610 and swingbuster got it right. They do look like the same person.
I'll be dam**d.
I'll be dam**d.
I'm back.....anyone there?
Do we need a drum roll?
Shep's here
It's the same hitter.
Major league baseball was producing the swing on the right. The "numbers" weren't satisfactory. They had no clue what was wrong.
Very briefly, the swing they were allowing couldn't be much worse. Notice the swing plane (imagine a disk formed by the bat's path) and how it's on a downward plane, his arms disconnect. This swing is completely arms. The arms are the power pack. They are disconnected from the rotating body. Someone mentioned they liked the rotation. Or thought I would like it. It's very poor. It only occurs because the arms create momentum to swing with and that momentum turns the body. As compared to how it should be.....the rotating body being the power supply and that power turning the bat.
About a year later he is now the hitter on the left.
The center swing shows his progression along the way.
BTW, before a season ending injury he was hitting .350 and driving the ball to the gaps with power with the new swing.
The key to looking at these swings is imagine the "disk" formed by the bat's path. This is the swing plane. And then compare it to the plane the shoulders turn in. The right clip shows two completely different "disks" or swing planes. One for the shoulders, one for the bat. The one on the left shows the swing plane matching the shoulder turn plane. This shows much better connection. It proves his body is doing the work, not the arms.
This is the work of one of my guru's desciples (sp).
This kid has come a LONG ways in a few months. I say he now has a chancce. MLB would not have discovered this IMHO.
When he takes this swing to that great "trial and error opportunity" called the minor leagues his gun is now loaded. He's not taking a cap gun to the plate with him. He now has a .45.
I would say minor improvements are still possible. But, from the swing on the left, I'd say he can soon enter the "mental separator" stage.
Things like this gripe me about mlb. Just my little soap box. Pick 'em clean quick. If you don't make it, hey, we've got a draft next year, too.
Major league baseball was producing the swing on the right. The "numbers" weren't satisfactory. They had no clue what was wrong.
Very briefly, the swing they were allowing couldn't be much worse. Notice the swing plane (imagine a disk formed by the bat's path) and how it's on a downward plane, his arms disconnect. This swing is completely arms. The arms are the power pack. They are disconnected from the rotating body. Someone mentioned they liked the rotation. Or thought I would like it. It's very poor. It only occurs because the arms create momentum to swing with and that momentum turns the body. As compared to how it should be.....the rotating body being the power supply and that power turning the bat.
About a year later he is now the hitter on the left.
The center swing shows his progression along the way.
BTW, before a season ending injury he was hitting .350 and driving the ball to the gaps with power with the new swing.
The key to looking at these swings is imagine the "disk" formed by the bat's path. This is the swing plane. And then compare it to the plane the shoulders turn in. The right clip shows two completely different "disks" or swing planes. One for the shoulders, one for the bat. The one on the left shows the swing plane matching the shoulder turn plane. This shows much better connection. It proves his body is doing the work, not the arms.
This is the work of one of my guru's desciples (sp).
This kid has come a LONG ways in a few months. I say he now has a chancce. MLB would not have discovered this IMHO.
When he takes this swing to that great "trial and error opportunity" called the minor leagues his gun is now loaded. He's not taking a cap gun to the plate with him. He now has a .45.
I would say minor improvements are still possible. But, from the swing on the left, I'd say he can soon enter the "mental separator" stage.
Things like this gripe me about mlb. Just my little soap box. Pick 'em clean quick. If you don't make it, hey, we've got a draft next year, too.
Question about far left image of same hitter:
Is the clip live pitching or soft toss?
RS
PS( These are mine too...LOL)
Is the clip live pitching or soft toss?
RS
PS( These are mine too...LOL)
I was close. Nice demonstration Linear.
What I find really interesting is those who didn't comment. bbscout must be away or he'd have said something.
*******************
Not only did this guy change his mechanics but he also trained with s e t p r o equipment and increased his batspeed 10+ mph while at the same time improving his quickness....a given with those new mechanics.
*******************
Not only did this guy change his mechanics but he also trained with s e t p r o equipment and increased his batspeed 10+ mph while at the same time improving his quickness....a given with those new mechanics.
This stuff isn't free anymore but it's worth the price.
If you aren't a member at s e t p r o you aren't doing all you can to get better.
Compare his past and his current to Manny....
Notice the dots show not only the bats swing plane but also the shoulders turn plane.
If you aren't a member at s e t p r o you aren't doing all you can to get better.
Compare his past and his current to Manny....
Notice the dots show not only the bats swing plane but also the shoulders turn plane.
The biggest difference I can see is the wrist and how it c-o-c-k-s/tips.
For example, the first three red cheerios-LOL in Manny clip shows pronounced wristc-o-c-k-s/bat-tipping.
I did this as hitter without realizing I was tipping the bat until I found the final desired slot! WOW! The bat tipping and nanosecond messages have determined the desired destination of bat slot during the running start of my bat.
Guess sometimes we don't really know how we do it.
peace shep
For example, the first three red cheerios-LOL in Manny clip shows pronounced wristc-o-c-k-s/bat-tipping.
I did this as hitter without realizing I was tipping the bat until I found the final desired slot! WOW! The bat tipping and nanosecond messages have determined the desired destination of bat slot during the running start of my bat.
Guess sometimes we don't really know how we do it.
peace shep
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:...Guess sometimes we don't really know how we do it...
Oh My God......Shep.....the members here don't want you to give me any more motivation/ammunition.
This is my point about former players and how they do things they don't know they are doing because it's just "part of them".
Then they teach something different. What they think they do and what they say they do often times doesn't match the video.
BTW, yes, I grew up in the school of hard knocks. That is where this obnoxious personality was formed. Some accuse me of learning it from N y m a n......not the case. I've had a load of steel since high school....but give me a kid who wants to learn and you'll see the velvet......as long as he works hard. If not...........I give a little "steel".
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
The biggest difference I can see is the wrist and how it cokks...
That may be what you see. But, I believe you picked hitter #3. The biggest difference is his shoulders turn in the same plane as the bat.
Look at hitter #3. Look at his swing plane. Notice his shoulders stay level (close to level). Also, notice how the shoulders slow/stop to let the bat go through the zone. That's because he was swinging all arms. Manny's rear shoulder forces the bat through the zone. He's rotating the bat through the zone.......HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Linear AB others
Read somewhere earlier that as prospects are promoted to higher levels, they look more and more alike. They get more and more bundled, so to speak.
I have found this so very true at the minor league parks through the years and a scout really has to bear down on subtle differences, as in the hitters swing.
This is perfect example here.
No, I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire-LOL
I just speak the truth-
Read somewhere earlier that as prospects are promoted to higher levels, they look more and more alike. They get more and more bundled, so to speak.
I have found this so very true at the minor league parks through the years and a scout really has to bear down on subtle differences, as in the hitters swing.
This is perfect example here.
No, I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire-LOL
I just speak the truth-
Alright already, I'll stop baiting.
I do comprehend
Just playing the advocate I see the diff and do agree.
The shoulders should be on the same plane as the bat in swing. Of course! peace shep
I do comprehend
Just playing the advocate I see the diff and do agree.The shoulders should be on the same plane as the bat in swing. Of course! peace shep
Are we the only two up?
quote:He's rotating the bat through the zone.......HUGE DIFFERENCE.
How can you rotate the bat throught the zone???
I'm Baaack
Yea think we are. About ready to call it a night??
I'm signing off. Sleep well Linear. peace shep
Look at Manny. The bat isn't but appears to be against his rear shoulder. He has connection. His bat and body are one. Then his shoulders turn/rotate. This rotates the bat through the zone.
Had to sneak back to see what was said after my departure>LOL
See what cha mean...This is the key about staying connected.
peace shep
See what cha mean...This is the key about staying connected.
peace shep
Sleep well for real this time.
Call any time.
peace shep
Call any time.
peace shep
I don't like the downward swing plane in #3.
#2 looks like hips finish a little ahead of shoulders.
#1 looks best to me. Hips seem to be pulling torso and shoulders through. Also appears to have more batspeed than 2.
#2 looks like hips finish a little ahead of shoulders.
#1 looks best to me. Hips seem to be pulling torso and shoulders through. Also appears to have more batspeed than 2.
quote:Things like this gripe me about mlb. Just my little soap box. Pick 'em clean quick. If you don't make it, hey, we've got a draft next year, too
MLB...training ground or proving ground. I think they don't care..your right.
Looking at the swing on right...amateurish so he got the opportunity with defense and speed.
Dead give away was rear foot action at follow through ( identical) and lead foot roll over . Forget the upper body and watch his lower and you will see on the tee work they stayed very similar and live he had the same "kick back" on the rear foot.
ABOUT IS SWING IN GENERAL>>>>>>>
His is still an arms hitter and in most likely will always be.That stuff is hard to change when it is ingrained
The shoulders and follow through are getting restricted by the hips that didn't clear.At one point I think I see the shoulders pulling the hips. If the hips don't lead you got problems like the top hand coming over. Hips can pull but not push. He is better in 3 but that is no where near a what you would call a good swing.
The plane is better but post him by a good rotator like Bonds or Gonzo and you will see glaring lower body problems.
He is 90% upper body hitting
ALso if you had the earlier part of the swing you might find poor negative moves of hips and hands. A faulty rotational swing is often a mirror image of a bad loading process.
Nobody ever said what the goal was as to the type swing he was developing
The hips must counter rotate/ coil during the stride to rotate through....the hardest part of hitting to teach
He is classic weight shift ,rear leg, and rear elbow extension hitter and you know what that is called...Linear. He shifts into that front side hard and with no negative move preceeding it that is visable on this clip. You might as well let him stay linear and run like crazy.
THese drills appear that somebody is trying to teach him to rotate. "Old dog new tricks" good luck"
Michael Jordon...remember
Interesting sequence Linear...thanks
quote:The hips must counter rotate/ coil during the stride to rotate through....the hardest part of hitting to teach
SwingBuster, good morning.
How would you teach a hitter to accomplish this I've quoted you on?
Shep Cares
Still pushing the swing from the back in the left swing/swing #1.
I think the hit with the back shoulder type cue is suboptimal,it just adds to the too much backside stuff which ruins/interrupts/"compresses" coil/stretch so uncoiling lacks quickness.
More detail with golf and Epstein and other jargon:
I prefer a more backhanded(tennis too)/pulled from the front swing.
Again, a very well known problem in golf- you have to learn to get the front side active/pull with front side/ "get the front side out of the way"to prevent getting "blocked".
I prefer a cue like "pulling the back hip around"/pull from the front/pull back with front shoulder--cues are largely feel and not reality but even if not visually accurate they need to encourage the strong front side.
Agree with buster the set-up and early swing are very important.The need for "plane transiton" (arms loading in different plane from shoulders,two ends work against each other- shoulder tilt as hips "initiate" from front - to develop aligned swing plane powered by uncoiling of last quick twist of trunk) needs to be appreciated not just how nicely the arm swings in the body plane. It doesn't matter if you have the planes lined up for unloading if there isn't enough coil in the trunk to drive a quick swing in the first place.
A better set up and load and we will see less of the suboptimal hip slide after frontfoot is down,earlier batspeed and contact not so far out front.
This result/improvement will likely fail to continue if the root cause-poor coil dynamics- is not better addressed.This is why the guru gets quickness but late connection,never a high level swing.
I think the hit with the back shoulder type cue is suboptimal,it just adds to the too much backside stuff which ruins/interrupts/"compresses" coil/stretch so uncoiling lacks quickness.
More detail with golf and Epstein and other jargon:
I prefer a more backhanded(tennis too)/pulled from the front swing.
Again, a very well known problem in golf- you have to learn to get the front side active/pull with front side/ "get the front side out of the way"to prevent getting "blocked".
I prefer a cue like "pulling the back hip around"/pull from the front/pull back with front shoulder--cues are largely feel and not reality but even if not visually accurate they need to encourage the strong front side.
Agree with buster the set-up and early swing are very important.The need for "plane transiton" (arms loading in different plane from shoulders,two ends work against each other- shoulder tilt as hips "initiate" from front - to develop aligned swing plane powered by uncoiling of last quick twist of trunk) needs to be appreciated not just how nicely the arm swings in the body plane. It doesn't matter if you have the planes lined up for unloading if there isn't enough coil in the trunk to drive a quick swing in the first place.
A better set up and load and we will see less of the suboptimal hip slide after frontfoot is down,earlier batspeed and contact not so far out front.
This result/improvement will likely fail to continue if the root cause-poor coil dynamics- is not better addressed.This is why the guru gets quickness but late connection,never a high level swing.
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
..He is 90% upper body hitting...
Swingbreaker and tom.longpost...
The work is not done. But the changes are significant.
quote:Swingbreaker
SwingBuster
Dear ******* (I mean Linear) I take it that was not a misprint
He will quit sliding when you can buy snowcones in ****
If he does quit it will be a hip coil / better negative move. You cannot uncoil what doesn't coil. The first to coil is the first to uncoil. Blocking out the hip neg move is common as pig tracks in Iowa
swingbuster,
Pig tracks in Iowa? Don't ever remember seeing pig tracks and have lived here a long time. The only place you will see pig tracks is on a farm and then only in a pig pen. Now, if you want to talk about DEER, they are everywhere and taking over the state!
linear,
I would like to see more clips of Manny’s swing. The one on the previous page looks like he hit a hanging curveball (probably out of the park). My question would be – how soon did he recognize curveball or off speed and how much did he adjust his swing because of the early recognition. Would he have the same swing on all pitches in this location (c*ck shot).
Also the swing shows some interesting things that relate to this discussion. This is what most people describe as short to the ball – long finish! I would say this clip shows absolutely great extension. It also, (in my opinion) shows the value of strong hands because at contact the barrel is real close to being in front of his hands. Also, though I can’t tell for sure, how would you describe his grip?
The reason I bring this up is because I think Manny is a truly “natural” hitter. One that is so talented, he can make more mistakes than most others. I believe his ability to recognize, adjust and time is much better than nearly all others. While he does things that you like, does he do anything you don’t like or would not teach young hitters?
This clip is a classic example of “staying on the ball” or trying to! Would also like to see this swing from start to finish.
Linear, Thanks for all your work, please consider toning things down because you can be very valuable to this site. I’d hate to see you get kicked off. Plus, if there is less fighting and bickering we will all get more out of it. I for one, have no problem with your strong beliefs in a certain system. However, I also have no problems with others who might disagree with portions of that system. It’s all good stuff!
Pig tracks in Iowa? Don't ever remember seeing pig tracks and have lived here a long time. The only place you will see pig tracks is on a farm and then only in a pig pen. Now, if you want to talk about DEER, they are everywhere and taking over the state!
linear,
I would like to see more clips of Manny’s swing. The one on the previous page looks like he hit a hanging curveball (probably out of the park). My question would be – how soon did he recognize curveball or off speed and how much did he adjust his swing because of the early recognition. Would he have the same swing on all pitches in this location (c*ck shot).
Also the swing shows some interesting things that relate to this discussion. This is what most people describe as short to the ball – long finish! I would say this clip shows absolutely great extension. It also, (in my opinion) shows the value of strong hands because at contact the barrel is real close to being in front of his hands. Also, though I can’t tell for sure, how would you describe his grip?
The reason I bring this up is because I think Manny is a truly “natural” hitter. One that is so talented, he can make more mistakes than most others. I believe his ability to recognize, adjust and time is much better than nearly all others. While he does things that you like, does he do anything you don’t like or would not teach young hitters?
This clip is a classic example of “staying on the ball” or trying to! Would also like to see this swing from start to finish.
Linear, Thanks for all your work, please consider toning things down because you can be very valuable to this site. I’d hate to see you get kicked off. Plus, if there is less fighting and bickering we will all get more out of it. I for one, have no problem with your strong beliefs in a certain system. However, I also have no problems with others who might disagree with portions of that system. It’s all good stuff!
quote:How would you teach a hitter to accomplish this I've quoted you on?
Shep Cares
First... A little awareness conversation about the pitcher winds up and you just standing still with no negative move. Your going to get smoked. Furthermore your negative move greatly effects your plate coverge potential
Start off the tee set low and set posture for that zone. Coach his negative moves and see what he can feel. Some can , bend, tuck the hip, load the shoulders, and stride in one move landing in the launch position when the ball is half way home. These guys begin to rotate into the path of the ball on time leading with what coiled first..the hips. They are not "fighting it" .
Some need hand loading to work with hip coil...and it is a counter rotation. THe reason you need hand loading is to get the feel of the hands cocking and the hips counter rotating.
If he could not feel the hand/ hip connection then I would see if he could feel the lead shoulders tuck, and hands back before foot plant. Some feel the front shoulder tuck as the hands get back and behind. You can progress to less than ideal cues but you must try to find what works
We should all know the look but he has to find something that works for him that is repeatable. I have worked with many kids like this and they are not easy to fix so I am not critica of the effort or progress. I am sayong that he will never do it.
My son was a slider( due to years of no stride( one piece swinging) unil he adopted a hand position that somehow clued his brain to get those hips out of the way going back. BUT ..that doesn't click for everybody.
Now , he is steppin into the ball hitting with his arms and hands a very LL approach.
I can just guarantee you if he doesn't keep his arms short and generate a negative hip turn and understand, get on, and trust the inside out bat path he cannot master the rotational swing.
All great swings are circular.....hitting the ball is not necessarily a swing. they are not the same.
Those that do not play golf can never totally understand how the priciples overlap and are quickest to say "take that golf **** somewhere else".
This guy couldn't hit a golf ball either, I can guarantee that too. He is not getting what a swing is as he practices hitting this baseball ball.
never seen a bad golf swing with a great takeaway( to include neg hip turn. I have never seen a bad baseball swing with a great load ( no matter what the loading style). That should tell you what side of the swing to coach.
quote:absolutely great extension
Scout,
I think is begins behind the hitter where nobody seems to look.
I see extension as an effortless sequele to a great swing mechanic
quote:Originally posted by swingbreaker:
...This guy couldn't hit a golf ball either, I can guarantee that too...
Either?......350 in the minor leagues?......can't hit a golf ball.....EITHER?
Even tom.longpost will talk about the benefits of backward chaining......at least he used to.....I'm not sure now that he has lost his vision.
*************************
PG
*********************************
*******************************
Once in a high level pattern,restraining the top hand/back arm (avoid top hand dominance) and keeping the front side working well will demand a lot of conscious attention.
One golfer's warmup routine/similar to BP before game:
" I think it is helpful to begin warming up for a round swinging the driver as easily as possible, gradually working up speed until you play yourself into a tempo that feels about right.After you have found the right rhythm with the driver, try to carry the same beat down through the other clubs....if you are able to swing the driver easily and get good solid contact and good direction, it is more likely that on that particular day you will have better luck with your irons if you take the stronger club and swing it easily also. If you find that in driving it is necessary to swing hard in order to move the front side out of the way, the chances are that the irons will be better if the more lofted clubs are chosen and swung more nearly with full force."
One golfer's warmup routine/similar to BP before game:
" I think it is helpful to begin warming up for a round swinging the driver as easily as possible, gradually working up speed until you play yourself into a tempo that feels about right.After you have found the right rhythm with the driver, try to carry the same beat down through the other clubs....if you are able to swing the driver easily and get good solid contact and good direction, it is more likely that on that particular day you will have better luck with your irons if you take the stronger club and swing it easily also. If you find that in driving it is necessary to swing hard in order to move the front side out of the way, the chances are that the irons will be better if the more lofted clubs are chosen and swung more nearly with full force."
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
...It also, (in my opinion) shows the value of strong hands because at contact the barrel is real close to being in front of his hands....
What is the correlation between strong hands and barrel being in front of hands at contact?
It is my opinion that he is early on this pitch and made a nice adjustment with the extension. Kept him in the zone longer.
Get in your stance. Lock both elbows against your side(s). Let the bat lag or droop. Hold it loosely. Now, whip the body. Load/unload. Negative move/positive move. Without "manhandling the bat". Did the bat get in front of the hands.......did it require hand strength.
The above is not a description of swing mechanics. It is a demonstration that the bat gets moved by the body not the hands in a good swing. The hands can control the direction of that force but they aren't producing the force. The hands are not pushing on the handle. The hands are allowing the force to flow through them to the handle. The force created by the body's rotation.
Another cheap example. Take a pencil and tie a 3 inch string to the top. Imagine a small ball on the end of the string. Hold the pencil in one hand and with the other, grab the ball and throw it so as to make it wrap aroung the pencil.
Now, put the pencil between both palms and spin it rapidly.
Which ball moved faster?
That is the difference between swinging with the arms/hands and having a strong rotating body.
If anything, the hands can interfere with the force (change it's direction; slow it) but they can't produce much. Not to say some hits aren't punched through after making a bad decision or being fooled......but we're talking about the good swing.
linear ...your favorite internet guys wrote
“When a batter initiates the swing with incorrect forces, the balance of the swing will be an exercise in compensation. The reaction of the bat to an improperly initiated swing is what causes that tense, jerky appearance.
When a player or coach uses video to review flaws in mechanics, it is imperative that he understands that the solution to a flaw will not be found in the frame that the flaw becomes apparent. The answer lies in the forces he used to initiated the swing.” - jack mankin.
I the guru would film the beginning of the swing he might help this guy....looking at the wrong frames.
“When a batter initiates the swing with incorrect forces, the balance of the swing will be an exercise in compensation. The reaction of the bat to an improperly initiated swing is what causes that tense, jerky appearance.
When a player or coach uses video to review flaws in mechanics, it is imperative that he understands that the solution to a flaw will not be found in the frame that the flaw becomes apparent. The answer lies in the forces he used to initiated the swing.” - jack mankin.
I the guru would film the beginning of the swing he might help this guy....looking at the wrong frames.
