Interesting indeed, Shep..... 
Shep:
If you are saying that Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would not be successful today because of their long strides, I would have to say you are drinking out of the wrong canteen. That is like saying that Beetoven or Mozart would not write great music today. Probably if Ruth or Mantle were playing today -- especially against most of the pitching of today -- they would pummel the ball as before and a whole lot more players would be striding long. The greatest players of each era would be great in any other era. It might not be true of average or mediocre players, but it is true of the best.
I am just amazed at your conclusion. And on Christmas, which again leads me to wonder what you possibly could be drinking.
If you are saying that Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would not be successful today because of their long strides, I would have to say you are drinking out of the wrong canteen. That is like saying that Beetoven or Mozart would not write great music today. Probably if Ruth or Mantle were playing today -- especially against most of the pitching of today -- they would pummel the ball as before and a whole lot more players would be striding long. The greatest players of each era would be great in any other era. It might not be true of average or mediocre players, but it is true of the best.
I am just amazed at your conclusion. And on Christmas, which again leads me to wonder what you possibly could be drinking.
Merry Christmas to you to Shep. Here is why I say what I say: Things do not always evolve for the better. Mantle and Ruth had the long strides because with them they had success. If they had not had success, then I am sure they would have adjusted at that time. Pitching today is certainly no better than it was for Mantle. It probably is better than it was for Ruth because of the presence of the great black players who did not have the chance to compete against Ruth.
But, my view is that players such as Mantle and Ruth set trends, they do not follow trends. If they were playing now, and if they were striding long -- as I suspect they would be -- then plenty of other players would emulate them. While I believe that the baseball today by and large is as good as it has ever been and maybe even better, it is not good enough to make these two guys (and others of their ilk) obsolete.
But, my view is that players such as Mantle and Ruth set trends, they do not follow trends. If they were playing now, and if they were striding long -- as I suspect they would be -- then plenty of other players would emulate them. While I believe that the baseball today by and large is as good as it has ever been and maybe even better, it is not good enough to make these two guys (and others of their ilk) obsolete.
Long stride or not… Mantle was GREAT. A very unusual talent of power and speed. Ruth was in a different league than all others who played during his time. No power hitter has ever come close to dominating their peers like Babe Ruth did!
Of course the pitching is better now than when Babe played. No I can’t prove that! But I do remember seeing Ruth take two steps (like a slopitch softball hitter) in a Major League game. Is that even possible now days. IMO Babe Ruth would have made all the adjustments he needed to dominate in any era. That said, I really do believe he would have had to change a few things to be that good in today’s game. If not he was even better than we thought!
How about that Clemente swing we see so often? Does anyone have any clips of Clemente with a good swing? Or does everyone think that the clip we keep seeing was a good swing? Did he really get 3,000 hits with that swing?
Of course the pitching is better now than when Babe played. No I can’t prove that! But I do remember seeing Ruth take two steps (like a slopitch softball hitter) in a Major League game. Is that even possible now days. IMO Babe Ruth would have made all the adjustments he needed to dominate in any era. That said, I really do believe he would have had to change a few things to be that good in today’s game. If not he was even better than we thought!
How about that Clemente swing we see so often? Does anyone have any clips of Clemente with a good swing? Or does everyone think that the clip we keep seeing was a good swing? Did he really get 3,000 hits with that swing?
The answer to the question is that the best players of any era would have been successful. Here's the caveat- they would have adapted. I guarantee you they would have made adjustments in their swing to adapt successfully. No question their stride and bat path would have changed. They also would have been training differently. Can you imagine Mantle and mays with proper weight training and (legal) supplements?
Good Morning,
The EH has done all his house work too.
Cause the Demanding one is coming home tonight ??
And I better have the house cleaned up?
Yes I do believe in what PG say's about pitching, and being of a differant Era.
But still adjusting.
Of coarse they would not be using a heavy bat.
But you can still see the power, And the rotation of the hip's/core
The EH has done all his house work too.
Cause the Demanding one is coming home tonight ??
And I better have the house cleaned up?
Yes I do believe in what PG say's about pitching, and being of a differant Era.
But still adjusting.
Of coarse they would not be using a heavy bat.
But you can still see the power, And the rotation of the hip's/core
What ever happened to Linear?
Is he now---GURU?????
Well I will alway's be the EH. Yes Just the EH.
No need for confusion.
I have a hard enough time remembering my own Real name
without looking at my driver's license.
EH
No need for confusion.
I have a hard enough time remembering my own Real name
without looking at my driver's license.
EH
Who said the Babe never cheated? 
1955 Hammerin Hank Aaron taking a little BP 
While I agree with being aggressive, there are some facts we can’t ignore.
Many pitchers have had great success at Rookie, low A, and even High A ball for the simple fact that hitters at those levels are overly aggressive and swing at too many pitches.
It’s not uncommon to see unusually great SO-K ratios by pitchers in the lower levels. Then the pitcher gets to AA – AAA and the hitters are making him throw strikes. The SO-K ratios come back to reality and sometimes it isn’t very good at all.
To me the biggest difference at each level is not so much the abilty of the hitters, but the intelligence of the hitters. At every level up the ladder, hitters get smarter and make pitchers throw strikes. In AAA you see veteran players that simply don’t swing at bad pitches! In rookie ball you see rookies who swing at everything (you can’t walk them)
Bottom line…
Lower levels… Many hitters will get themselves out. Throwing strikes not as important.
Higher levels… Pitchers need to get the hitter out. Throwing quality strikes a must.
For the most part, anyway.
Shep, Thanks for that link to the Babe Ruth clip. That was very good!
Many pitchers have had great success at Rookie, low A, and even High A ball for the simple fact that hitters at those levels are overly aggressive and swing at too many pitches.
It’s not uncommon to see unusually great SO-K ratios by pitchers in the lower levels. Then the pitcher gets to AA – AAA and the hitters are making him throw strikes. The SO-K ratios come back to reality and sometimes it isn’t very good at all.
To me the biggest difference at each level is not so much the abilty of the hitters, but the intelligence of the hitters. At every level up the ladder, hitters get smarter and make pitchers throw strikes. In AAA you see veteran players that simply don’t swing at bad pitches! In rookie ball you see rookies who swing at everything (you can’t walk them)
Bottom line…
Lower levels… Many hitters will get themselves out. Throwing strikes not as important.
Higher levels… Pitchers need to get the hitter out. Throwing quality strikes a must.
For the most part, anyway.
Shep, Thanks for that link to the Babe Ruth clip. That was very good!
We used to ask young pitchers headed to "Rookie Ball", kind of joking but not entirely.
You know what is the worst thing you can do in Rookie Ball?
Throw a strike!
You know what is the worst thing you can do in Rookie Ball?
Throw a strike!
How's it going BlueDog? Here's the rest of that list I promised earlier: items 7-12
7)Top hand is evident upon making contact and follow through-Does the top hand snap firmly at point of contact? examples: Robinson and Rose clips in this thread.
8)Head of bat does not lag-Does the hitter slice the ball or square up to ball at contact?
9)Aggressive, hits first good pitch-We covered this.
10)Short stroke, ball jumps off bat-Does the ball sound loud and ringing knock off the bat even though hitter is short to zone?
11)Bat goes to ball with arms and hands matching plane-We covered this.
12)Arms and hands make last nanosecond adjustments to ensure contact with sweetness.
Peace, Shep
7)Top hand is evident upon making contact and follow through-Does the top hand snap firmly at point of contact? examples: Robinson and Rose clips in this thread.
8)Head of bat does not lag-Does the hitter slice the ball or square up to ball at contact?
9)Aggressive, hits first good pitch-We covered this.
10)Short stroke, ball jumps off bat-Does the ball sound loud and ringing knock off the bat even though hitter is short to zone?
11)Bat goes to ball with arms and hands matching plane-We covered this.
12)Arms and hands make last nanosecond adjustments to ensure contact with sweetness.
Peace, Shep
BlueDog,
I want to share a true life story with you about who taught me that, "hit the first driveable pitch and don't waste it by fouling it off". Several can verify this story.
The late, great Francis Gosnell noticed I would let good pitches go by that were driveable and would foul off some of those pitches as well. Francis played with and against Babe Ruth but chose the route of a minister and served God on this Earth for most of his life until his passing. He was very intelligent and had never lost his keen eye for finer points of hitting when he made a few suggestions to me during fall practice before the spring schedule started. Guess what, I listened and as God as my witness, I didn't miss "1" mistake pitch early in the count the entire year and was blessed and fortunate to have a little success both seasons with Francis as my mentor. I think about Francis often and do have a pic I will scan in memory and tribute to my mentor and former instructor. Please induldge me HSBBW board. BlueDog, appreciate your interest here. peace, Shep
I want to share a true life story with you about who taught me that, "hit the first driveable pitch and don't waste it by fouling it off". Several can verify this story.
The late, great Francis Gosnell noticed I would let good pitches go by that were driveable and would foul off some of those pitches as well. Francis played with and against Babe Ruth but chose the route of a minister and served God on this Earth for most of his life until his passing. He was very intelligent and had never lost his keen eye for finer points of hitting when he made a few suggestions to me during fall practice before the spring schedule started. Guess what, I listened and as God as my witness, I didn't miss "1" mistake pitch early in the count the entire year and was blessed and fortunate to have a little success both seasons with Francis as my mentor. I think about Francis often and do have a pic I will scan in memory and tribute to my mentor and former instructor. Please induldge me HSBBW board. BlueDog, appreciate your interest here. peace, Shep
Since baseball time is measured only in outs, all you have to do is succeed utterly; keep hitting, keep the rally alive, and you have defeated time. You remain forever young.
--Roger Angell
--Roger Angell
"No game in the world is as tidy and dramatically neat as baseball, with cause and effect, crime and punishment, motive and result, so cleanly defined." - Paul Gallico
"The game has a cleanness. If you do a good job, the numbers say so. You don't have to ask anyone or play politics. You don't have to wait for the reviews." - Sandy Koufax
What a worthwhile thread this has been. Appreciate all the good folks who contribute and make this site so great. Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Longtime baseball player and now longtime observer
Sincerely,
Longtime baseball player and now longtime observer
as many i have enjoyed this thread. couple thoughts came to mind though reading comments about ruth and the mick. during their careers, wasn't the norm to have a longer stride and didn't that begin to change as the breaking ball moved into baseball, when hitters shortened the stride to lessen head movement? personally, i'm certain their style would have changed slighty as hitting philosophies have changed. but remember too, ballparks have changed in size. forget the live balls, the rock solid light wood they use now, but the fact that they hit balls during their time that were routine outs that are taters now!! (remember monument park in yankee stadium was INSIDE the fence!!) how many fly balls in old yankee stadium, comiskey, or detroit (can't recall its name) would have landed in the cheap seats now?
Many other factors come into play such as competing for available slots, technology in baseballs and bats, and especially, expectations.
In the golden era of all the legends, the level of competetion was not as intense as today's era. If you wanted to play, you played. Very few were turned away that wanted a chance. All were given at least an audition. Today, the odds of even signing a professional contract are staggering, to say the least. Last time I looked, appoximately one out of every forty thousand plus amateur signable players sign a contract in professional baseball each year. This causes a rise in level of play. A pitcher throws every pitch like it's his last opposed to "just going out there and throwing strikes". The days of the coach saying, "throw strikes and let your defense work for you" are over with in many baseball parks.
Technology of baseballs, size of parks, and expectations are a whole other can of worms.
Long Time Player
In the golden era of all the legends, the level of competetion was not as intense as today's era. If you wanted to play, you played. Very few were turned away that wanted a chance. All were given at least an audition. Today, the odds of even signing a professional contract are staggering, to say the least. Last time I looked, appoximately one out of every forty thousand plus amateur signable players sign a contract in professional baseball each year. This causes a rise in level of play. A pitcher throws every pitch like it's his last opposed to "just going out there and throwing strikes". The days of the coach saying, "throw strikes and let your defense work for you" are over with in many baseball parks.
Technology of baseballs, size of parks, and expectations are a whole other can of worms.
Long Time Player
In the last two clips, Pujols and Dunn's follow-through/finish appear to be out of the disc plane because they both let go of the bat with top hand.
Find me some examples with both hands on the bat in finish to prove your point and I'll listen, a little, or at the very least, will further discuss. Going to hit golfballs, be back in an hour or so. peace, Shep
Find me some examples with both hands on the bat in finish to prove your point and I'll listen, a little, or at the very least, will further discuss.
Going to hit golfballs, be back in an hour or so. peace, Shep
That last swing by Aaron might be old school but it's a routine pop-up to shallow CF and not too impressive. I have seen much better from Aaron than that, one being #715. I was present for that one at Fulton County Stadium and will never forget it, even if I have amnesia
All the other clips really don't impress me much BlueDog. They are all good hitters who were caught having a little success with imperfect swings. Do you teach these techniques? I know you believe the swing stops after contact. I disagree, but that's okay, because I agree with so many other aspects of the swing that you discuss here. You just cannot justify that "chop and stop" philosophy to me. It does matter after contact in the follow-through/finish. It has to or you're not going to see any deep HR carry on baseballs driven to OF. Just my .02 not necessarily the "Torah"
peace brother Blue and Board
All the other clips really don't impress me much BlueDog. They are all good hitters who were caught having a little success with imperfect swings. Do you teach these techniques? I know you believe the swing stops after contact. I disagree, but that's okay, because I agree with so many other aspects of the swing that you discuss here. You just cannot justify that "chop and stop" philosophy to me. It does matter after contact in the follow-through/finish. It has to or you're not going to see any deep HR carry on baseballs driven to OF. Just my .02 not necessarily the "Torah"
peace brother Blue and Board
bluedog,
loved the sadahara oh clips. I dont get to see much footage of him.
loved the sadahara oh clips. I dont get to see much footage of him.
Swing momentum is key and shouldn't be thought of as stopping action but maybe deceleration in the finish Sound good? I have noticed the deceleration after contact a lot more lately in all videoclips, do to our conversations here. peace
Sound good? I have noticed the deceleration after contact a lot more lately in all videoclips, do to our conversations here. peacequote:Amateur hitters don't release at ball contact....They use some of the energy in the follow-through.....
Bluedog, would such also be the result of a lack of bat quickness thus hitters bat speed is not optimal at point of contact?
quote:energy and swing momentum are two entirely different race horses.....
Race hores are a good analogy here in that some fire out of the gate and reach optimal speed relatively quickly as opposed to those that require longer distance to reach optimal speed.
quote:Top of the stretch the announcer screamed, and here comes Santa Claus.....The crowd was going crazy....Santa Claus won the race.....True story....
aka The FIX
The finish is deceleration of momentum and not something I would broach with a young hitter. JMO
quote:Batspeed is energy....
Energy is batspeed......
Release it....Don't save it for the follow-through....
Bluedog, I don't believe it's a matter of releasing or saving it. It's being able to generate early bat speed and if not due to lack of bat quickness then it's simply not their at contact.
quote:How bout a HS punter?
Wouldn't you want him to generate max leg speed at point of contact with the football, not later i.e. during follow thru.
Punters take the "Babe" stride in an effort to generate momentum into contact.
It's really quite simple in that you must be able to generate EARLY bat speed in order to hit at the hightest level. Just watch video of MLB hitters and see their bat blur at about launch. Momentum, both bat head and weight shift, are two of the key
components in generating such early bat speed.
components in generating such early bat speed.
quote:Early batspeed and momentum do you no good if you can't load and unload effectively.....
Dog, without momentum you don't have early bat speed and bat head momentum facilitates the load/unload process. I should also add if you can't load and unload effectively, any momentum is lost and you've compromised early bat speed.
I do believe brn2Hit was born to hit! Nice post!
You guys are all on the right track.
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
You guys are all on the right track.
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
quote:You can't hit a ball a long way without loading and unloading your body....
Agreed and not debating the importance of load/unload...I'm saying momentum is key to that process. I'm not sure of your other points as you seem to be separating the load/unload process but if your of the opinion that one can load/unload effectively to hit at the highest level WITHOUT momentum then yes we completely disagree
Ripken and Tony Gwynn are headed to the HOF today
Long Time Player
Long Time Player
SHEP...i've seen in a few posts where you refer to USCA, when did you play there? my cousin was a catcher there, is in his upper 30's now.
turnin2: Who is your cousin and I'll tell you if I played with him. I played at USCA from 1987 till 1989 under Randy Warrick and Gary Gilmore.
Congratulations to Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn on their inductions to the Hall of Fame
Well deserved indeed! peace Shep
Congratulations to Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn on their inductions to the Hall of Fame
