Should Penn State Football be shut down?
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I can think of no more appropriate use of the death penalty than coaches using your program as an accomplice in felony child molestation and having their superiors look the other way.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
I can think of no more appropriate use of the death penalty than coaches using your program as an accomplice in felony child molestation and having their superiors look the other way.
The football program didn't rape the kids so it shouldn't be punished.
Anyone who molests children (or doesn't prevent it) should be executed in a public forum.
The football program should be shut down. It was the football program that enabled Sandusky to do his thing. Maybe after 5-7 years and every administrator tied in with PSU scandal is fired and replaced including a whole new coaching staff not tied to Paterno in any way.
Along with those going down, PSU also needs to knock down the Paterno statue. To keep that thing up would be a disgrace.
Along with those going down, PSU also needs to knock down the Paterno statue. To keep that thing up would be a disgrace.
quote:The football program should be shut down.
Sounds great. So I guess basketballs would be the only sports that remain at Penn State? Because I'll bet the rest of the sports would have to be cut after having relied so heavily on football for so many years...
Justice for all..
Bulldog...nobody said life was fair. The football program and upper management of the school systematically covered up for Sandusky over a 13 year period. Louis Freeh concluded Paterno would have likely been indicted as an accomplice, should he have lived. The former athletic director and vice-president are under indictment. Pull the plug on that puppy.
Based on the NCAA penalties on past football programs, there is ZERO reason why PSU shouldn't get the heaviest penalty in NCAA history. ZERO institutional control...
The very first sentence in the NCAA's rule regarding institutional control says...
"In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found it is necessary to ascertain what formal institutional policies and procedures
were in place at the time the violation of NCAA rules occurred and whether those policies and
procedures, if adequate, were being monitored and enforced."
The lack of control has to have something to do with violation of an NCAA rule. Obviously, there's no NCAA rule about what Sandusky and crew did. The NCAA should ban those involved, but that's it unless some NCAA violations materialize.
"In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found it is necessary to ascertain what formal institutional policies and procedures
were in place at the time the violation of NCAA rules occurred and whether those policies and
procedures, if adequate, were being monitored and enforced."
The lack of control has to have something to do with violation of an NCAA rule. Obviously, there's no NCAA rule about what Sandusky and crew did. The NCAA should ban those involved, but that's it unless some NCAA violations materialize.
So, you are saying that nowhere in the NCAA rules is there anything that regards in any way appropriate behavior of adults, or safe guarding the welfare of students, or illegal activity, or behavior that reflects negatively on the institution or the NCAA.
Really?
Really?
What NCAA rule was broken? I don't know all the facts of the situation, but I've not seen anyone say what NCAA rule was broken.
Baylor covered up the murder of one basketball player by another. But there was no penalty for that because NCAA didn't have authority. They were busted for payments to players.
Baylor covered up the murder of one basketball player by another. But there was no penalty for that because NCAA didn't have authority. They were busted for payments to players.
My contracts with three NCAA conferences include "moral turpitude" type clauses and bringing discredit upon the conferences, teams or NCAA. It's hard to believe that NCAA does not have similar requirements of institutions and/or their representatives.
I may well be wrong, but I'll check.
I may well be wrong, but I'll check.
Was there a serial killer in Baylor over a span of 14 years? If Baylor official covers up one murder after another, then there are implied lack of control at the institution at the least, an accomplice to the crime at the most.
The same rule would apply to 1 as would apply to 20. If there is a moral clause, I would think that would apply to PSU...but would have applied to Baylor too.
To me this is a no-brainier. Death penalty for longer than any school hasbeensimilarly condemned. And the Big Ten should kick them out of the conference. This situation is so far beyond belief that there really are no words. Kids in other sports Can transfer.
Yes, there is a moral clause.
Here is a statement from NCAA President Emmert regarding, in his opinion, it's applicability to this issue:
"We believe that there is a proper and important role for the NCAA to play in all of this. If a coach is off somewhere and gets a D.U.I. it’s completely different than allegations of covering up a crime being committed in your locker rooms.”
Further:
"The behaviors and failures described in the allegations set forth by the grand jury try not only the integrity of the university, but that of intercollegiate athletics as a whole and the NCAA member institutions that conduct college sports.
"This is NOT in my mind or in many other people’s mind an unprecedented application of our bylaws and our constitution"
Here is a statement from NCAA President Emmert regarding, in his opinion, it's applicability to this issue:
"We believe that there is a proper and important role for the NCAA to play in all of this. If a coach is off somewhere and gets a D.U.I. it’s completely different than allegations of covering up a crime being committed in your locker rooms.”
Further:
"The behaviors and failures described in the allegations set forth by the grand jury try not only the integrity of the university, but that of intercollegiate athletics as a whole and the NCAA member institutions that conduct college sports.
"This is NOT in my mind or in many other people’s mind an unprecedented application of our bylaws and our constitution"
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
The football program should be shut down. It was the football program that enabled Sandusky to do his thing. Maybe after 5-7 years and every administrator tied in with PSU scandal is fired and replaced including a whole new coaching staff not tied to Paterno in any way.
Along with those going down, PSU also needs to knock down the Paterno statue. To keep that thing up would be a disgrace.
So if Penn State football didn't exist or if Sandusky didn't coach at Penn State then he wouldn't have rape those kids?
I'm not trying to be a jerk here but like I said in the other thread - Sandusky, the AD, the president, VP and JoePa committed the crimes and not the football team or school.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
So if Penn State football didn't exist or if Sandusky didn't coach at Penn State then he wouldn't have rape those kids?
He wouldn't have had access to kids for 14 years because of his position with Penn St. to carry out his acts. Perhaps, if he was just a regular schnook nobody because PSU didn't exist, he may have been cut down and put away long before he could spend 14 years doing what he did because of who he is.
Sandusky would've done what he did regardless if there was no PSU or a Paterno but that's dealing with iffs.
The fact that he was able to do what he did for 14 years on the PSU campus under Paterno is the issue, not whether if PSU existed or not
I attended Penn State. It is a different place now. Paterno is dead. Graham Spanier is gone. Sandusky is guilty. Others enabled child sexual assault. A former Director of the FBI investigated a cover-up. A remodeling effort is planned for the venue in which a sick powerful man serially raped helpless children. Seems building things is what they do best. Maybe it is time for a little tearing down. Let the NCAA shut down the whole program, dismantle the stadium, and place Joe’s statue upside down right on the old fifty yard line.
"It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not to deserve them."
Mark Twain
"It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not to deserve them."
Mark Twain
No but anyone that had any kind of connection to Sandusky should be banned from any kind of sports program for the rest of their lives.
Anyone with direct knowlege of the incidents should go to jail. Any retired individuals with knowlege of what went on should forfeit any and all pensions and benefits perminanantly.
Giving Penn State the death penalty, while quick would just hurt people not involved in any way with this tragety. It is closing the barn door after the horses got out.
Anyone with direct knowlege of the incidents should go to jail. Any retired individuals with knowlege of what went on should forfeit any and all pensions and benefits perminanantly.
Giving Penn State the death penalty, while quick would just hurt people not involved in any way with this tragety. It is closing the barn door after the horses got out.
quote:Originally posted by Wklink:
Giving Penn State the death penalty, while quick would just hurt people not involved in any way with this tragety. It is closing the barn door after the horses got out.
Think about this though, it's no different when a CEO runs a business to the ground, the ones who suffer when the business goes under are the workers. The workers who would have no clue what's going on in the ivory tower. They get screwed the most while the CEO gets rewarded a multi-million dollar golden parachute for his efforts and moves over to another board getting paid a multimillion dollar salary do do it all over again.
The death penalty is appropriate because it hurts Penn State in the most vulnerable spot, it's wallet. Football provides huge revenue, it's the reason Paterno became so powerful...follow the money. Take the money away.
The football program was a complicit accomplice in raping children and covering it up. Coaches, The AD, administrators and janitors were all involved.
No kids will be harmed by closing it down, they can transfer. Sure, other programs will get hacked, but good, pain is good.
The only real teacher in life is pain. The more painful the lesson, the more it is remembered. This is something that should never be forgotten.
The football program was the tool used to rape little boys and some people don't understand why the football program needs to go? Baffling...
The football program was a complicit accomplice in raping children and covering it up. Coaches, The AD, administrators and janitors were all involved.
No kids will be harmed by closing it down, they can transfer. Sure, other programs will get hacked, but good, pain is good.
The only real teacher in life is pain. The more painful the lesson, the more it is remembered. This is something that should never be forgotten.
The football program was the tool used to rape little boys and some people don't understand why the football program needs to go? Baffling...
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
I can think of no more appropriate use of the death penalty than coaches using your program as an accomplice in felony child molestation and having their superiors look the other way.
The football program didn't rape the kids so it shouldn't be punished.
Anyone who molests children (or doesn't prevent it) should be executed in a public forum.
Wrong, the football program did rape kids, it was the tool used to lure them in, the tool used to provide a venue for the rape, and the tool used for enough clout to keep it quiet so the rapes could continue for many years. Without the football program, none of this is possible. The football program was proven to be a willing accomplice.
Let me ask you this...
If a corporation builds an ice cream store for its employees and one of the employees begins luring children into the store and buying them ice cream and taking them in the back room and raping them, and the heads of the corporation find out, have evidence, and leave a paper trail of documents proving their knowledge and trying to implement remediation plans...and this goes on for decades...when it gets found out, should the store be closed, or did the store not rape the kids?
Shut it down. Serious crimes against children occurred. The decision makers chose to protect their football business over these children. That is just about as bad as it gets folks. If the NCAA doesn't shut it down, the State of PA should.
THere have been numerous books written ("Beer and Circus" - Murray Sperber comes to mind) about the recent (20 years) change in power at these large football Universities. They argue the University President is no longer the most important person on campus. It is the football coach. Certainly that was the case at Penn State. Ohio State's President recognized it when he joked to the media that he hoped "Coach Tressel doesn't fire him" when he was defending Tressell about NCAA infractions. This balance of power had gone too far, and Penn State is now going to be the poster child for it. THere needs to be far more controls in place to monitor this level of power. In this particular case, it corrupted absolutely.
THere have been numerous books written ("Beer and Circus" - Murray Sperber comes to mind) about the recent (20 years) change in power at these large football Universities. They argue the University President is no longer the most important person on campus. It is the football coach. Certainly that was the case at Penn State. Ohio State's President recognized it when he joked to the media that he hoped "Coach Tressel doesn't fire him" when he was defending Tressell about NCAA infractions. This balance of power had gone too far, and Penn State is now going to be the poster child for it. THere needs to be far more controls in place to monitor this level of power. In this particular case, it corrupted absolutely.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
I can think of no more appropriate use of the death penalty than coaches using your program as an accomplice in felony child molestation and having their superiors look the other way.
The football program didn't rape the kids so it shouldn't be punished.
Anyone who molests children (or doesn't prevent it) should be executed in a public forum.
Wrong, the football program did rape kids, it was the tool used to lure them in, the tool used to provide a venue for the rape, and the tool used for enough clout to keep it quiet so the rapes could continue for many years. Without the football program, none of this is possible. The football program was proven to be a willing accomplice.
Let me ask you this...
If a corporation builds an ice cream store for its employees and one of the employees begins luring children into the store and buying them ice cream and taking them in the back room and raping them, and the heads of the corporation find out, have evidence, and leave a paper trail of documents proving their knowledge and trying to implement remediation plans...and this goes on for decades...when it gets found out, should the store be closed, or did the store not rape the kids? did the store not rape the kids?
No the store did not rape the kids. Bad people did. Why punish other employees who had nothing to do with the crime?
Believe me if we had public executions for heinous crimes such as child molestations then it would send a clear message.
It would seem the consensus is to shut down the program.
Even if the NCAA has no grounds to punish PSU, then why not the State of Pennsylvania step in since it is a state college.
Even if the NCAA has no grounds to punish PSU, then why not the State of Pennsylvania step in since it is a state college.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
The death penalty is appropriate because it hurts Penn State in the most vulnerable spot, it's wallet. Football provides huge revenue, it's the reason Paterno became so powerful...follow the money. Take the money away.
Penn State has more money (and the ability to raise even more) than you can shake a stick at. Hitting them in the wallet won't hurt. BUT, if the NCAA were to take away something all the money in the world couldn't buy- inter-collegiate competition- Penn State may finally understand what the rest of the country is so upset about. Up til now, even after this Freeh Report, it's plain to see they still don't get it.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Even if the NCAA has no grounds to punish PSU, then why not the State of Pennsylvania step in since it is a state college.
The NCAA DOES have grounds and is considering the issue.
I can't argue with any of these points. But I am amazed at how all of this was allowed to happen because of one thing...money.
We need to look beyond Penn State in all this. The pain and suffering of the victims is real and will never go away. Sandusky is going to jail and his enablers are currently being put through the public forum ringer and hopefully will receive severe discipline including long hard painful jail time at a non country club prison. The administrators at Penn State are guilty of aiding and abetting Sandusky. Other current as well as "potential" enablers at similar institutions scattered around the country need to be put on notice because unfortunately, I don't believe PSU is an isolated case. There is simply too much money out there and money is the great eraser of morals and ethics.
Pedophiles in sports are not going to vanish because Sandusky was convicted.
Pedophiles in sports are not going to vanish because Sandusky was convicted.
I don't believe it happened over money. Sandusky could have been outted years ago and life would have gone on. Paterno would have moved another step closer to sainthood with a harsh public statement to the effect of "This is not who Penn State is, and it won't be tolerated."quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I can't argue with any of these points. But I am amazed at how all of this was allowed to happen because of one thing...money.
The cover up was about image. It was about covering up the pristine image of Joe Paterno and Penn State football. And it blew up in his face and the faces of everyone involved.
I'm not for penalizing the football program. I'm for penalizing everyone involved in the cover up. My outrage 1s the president of the university was not fired. He was only demoted. He's still a tenured professor at Penn State. The university board should he held accountable for this decision.
You don't see a lot of those magnetic paw prints on cars anymore. Everyone I know has removed them. They're not puffing out their chests with, "We Are ... Penn State" anymore. I feel sorry for the athletes at the university. My son knows a few. The scandal has cast a pall over the entire sports program.
I have to go with save the program, get the people involved. Prosecute the ones that knew and fire the ones that were supposed to supervise the program and failed to do so. I am not a Penn St fan. But I cannot see the reason to punish innocent people over the actions of a few.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Even if the NCAA has no grounds to punish PSU, then why not the State of Pennsylvania step in since it is a state college.
The NCAA DOES have grounds and is considering the issue.
Bob Costas was on Meet The Press today. He stated that if Penn State does not suspend football this year, then the NCAA will very likely drop the death penalty on them.
Costas said "If Penn State is playing football in September something is very wrong."
Sounds like this goes beyond just the football program. Penn State has apparently violated numerous laws regarding the Clery Act which requires them to report certain crimes.
If you are in favor of shutting down the football team, are you also in favor of closing the entire university?
If you are in favor of shutting down the football team, are you also in favor of closing the entire university?
They still don't get it. They want to keep the statue of the rapist supporter up. He also negotiated himself a better retirement package in preparation for leaving to try and protect himself once he started to think the whole thing might be exposed. More and more keeps coming out. Shut the thing down permanently as a constant reminder. The pristine white of those uniforms now sickens me.
Here's another scathing article on the scumbag admin at Penn State.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/n...nis-jeff-nalley.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/n...nis-jeff-nalley.html
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
I can think of no more appropriate use of the death penalty than coaches using your program as an accomplice in felony child molestation and having their superiors look the other way.
The football program didn't rape the kids so it shouldn't be punished.
Anyone who molests children (or doesn't prevent it) should be executed in a public forum.
Wrong, the football program did rape kids, it was the tool used to lure them in, the tool used to provide a venue for the rape, and the tool used for enough clout to keep it quiet so the rapes could continue for many years. Without the football program, none of this is possible. The football program was proven to be a willing accomplice.
Let me ask you this...
If a corporation builds an ice cream store for its employees and one of the employees begins luring children into the store and buying them ice cream and taking them in the back room and raping them, and the heads of the corporation find out, have evidence, and leave a paper trail of documents proving their knowledge and trying to implement remediation plans...and this goes on for decades...when it gets found out, should the store be closed, or did the store not rape the kids? did the store not rape the kids?
No the store did not rape the kids. Bad people did. Why punish other employees who had nothing to do with the crime?
Believe me if we had public executions for heinous crimes such as child molestations then it would send a clear message.
Who are you trying to protect, the athletes? Athletes are the customers, not the employees. They need no protection, they can move on.
quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I have to go with save the program, get the people involved. Prosecute the ones that knew and fire the ones that were supposed to supervise the program and failed to do so. I am not a Penn St fan. But I cannot see the reason to punish innocent people over the actions of a few.
Please define who the innocents are?
Maybe you could help out Doughnutman out by explaining who the guilty are cplz.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Maybe you could help out Doughnutman out by explaining who the guilty are cplz.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.
I believe I asked a sincere question of Doughnutman and am trying to ascertain who he is referring to as innocent people...players, coaches, administrators, secretaries, janitors, ball boys?
You asked Doughnutman to define who the innocent are. Since we live in a country where you're innocent till proven guilty, seems like it's easier to explain who the guilty are. Sounded to me like you knew who the guilty were.
Consider Vicky Triponey. I can't imagine anyone would consider her guilty after reading that article. But consider it in reverse, is she innocent? Not sure...she pushed hard, lost her job because of it. But she was there for 4 years...could she have pushed harder? I don't know, wasn't in her shoes. I'm comfortable saying she's not guilty but I don't know if she was innocent. I think we should be careful about broad brushing guilt by saying prove you're innocent.
Consider Vicky Triponey. I can't imagine anyone would consider her guilty after reading that article. But consider it in reverse, is she innocent? Not sure...she pushed hard, lost her job because of it. But she was there for 4 years...could she have pushed harder? I don't know, wasn't in her shoes. I'm comfortable saying she's not guilty but I don't know if she was innocent. I think we should be careful about broad brushing guilt by saying prove you're innocent.