Tx-Husker,
The presumption of innocence is a legal principle intended to promote fair trials. There are other kinds of guilt beside criminal guilt.
The NCAA's "death penalty" is intended to address something else all together, specifically corruption within institutions that permit athletic pride to replace more important purposes and values.
Read the CNN article about the student affairs director who got run off campus and out of town for resisting Paterno's attempts to corrupt the student discipline process. The manner in which "the Penn State way" became a shorthand expression to justify widespread moral blindness and professional dereliction shows a cultural rottenness that cannot easily be purged.
Then read about how Jay Paterno and his lawyers are still in denial. They still think this is just Sandusky's problem.
If this situation doesn't call for shutting down the football program long enough for the school to regain its center, I don't know why the "death penalty" is on the books.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
You asked Doughnutman to define who the innocent are. Since we live in a country where you're innocent till proven guilty, seems like it's easier to explain who the guilty are. Sounded to me like you knew who the guilty were.
Please stop trying to stir the pot.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
The manner in which "the Penn State way" became a shorthand expression to justify widespread moral blindness and professional dereliction shows a cultural rottenness that cannot easily be purged.
It lives on...
Tv's in Penn State student union have channel changed to avoid seeing Louis Freeh report released.
Wow. Taking denial to a new level.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I have to go with save the program, get the people involved. Prosecute the ones that knew and fire the ones that were supposed to supervise the program and failed to do so. I am not a Penn St fan. But I cannot see the reason to punish innocent people over the actions of a few.
Please define who the innocents are?
The young boys who were raped by a monster & FORGOTTEN, IGNORED by the admin & coaches at Penn State.
I'm not going to get caught up in the emotion and overreract. I believe the situation is not football related. The circumstances would be the same if it were the football program or the science department. Would you kill the science department or just fire the people? But I do have a greeting card for the way the university and the Paterno family are addressing the situation ....
They need to come to an understanding their reaction is really pi$$ing people off. It's the "We Are Penn State" arrogance after having been caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
They need to come to an understanding their reaction is really pi$$ing people off. It's the "We Are Penn State" arrogance after having been caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
RJM - your analogy between science and football misses the point that about 60% of the voters in this thread and across the country are making, frankly. You are confusing whether or not people unrelated to the incident ought to suffer consequences with those who perpetrated things.
Let me run the analogy in reverse here...
People (including me) are saying that if the science department (namely those in charge of it) allowed pedophilia and rape to occur while turning a blind eye to it in order to preserve the prestige of the department, then YES we are saying sayanora to the science department.
Some things are bigger than the underlying good of the department. Also, people can study science at plenty of other Pa in-state institutions or out-of-state institutions.
As for the "innocent" who might lose their jobs, when we start guaranteeing jobs for people, this country will be in even worse shape than it is now. I am not saying I am not sensitive to their plight, but that losing one's job is a reality in any endeavor - including public-service employment.
Let me run the analogy in reverse here...
People (including me) are saying that if the science department (namely those in charge of it) allowed pedophilia and rape to occur while turning a blind eye to it in order to preserve the prestige of the department, then YES we are saying sayanora to the science department.
Some things are bigger than the underlying good of the department. Also, people can study science at plenty of other Pa in-state institutions or out-of-state institutions.
As for the "innocent" who might lose their jobs, when we start guaranteeing jobs for people, this country will be in even worse shape than it is now. I am not saying I am not sensitive to their plight, but that losing one's job is a reality in any endeavor - including public-service employment.
CD, we would be talking about an entirely different scenario if Paterno was still alive, retired or not as the question of influence would still be there. But as we have it now, the perp has been tried/convicted and will be in jail the rest of his life. The chief enabler is no longer in the picture as he's dead. The next level enablers need to be dealt with (criminally if appropriate, removed from the university in my opinion). Then all the pieces are in place for there to be real, lasting change on that campus if the right hires are made. Simply terminating the football program won't necessarily bring about the cultural change needed there.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Simply terminating the football program won't necessarily bring about the cultural change needed there.
Agreed. The question is whether cultural problems as widespread and as deeply engrained as those that still prevail at Penn State can be addressed effectively without shutting down football for a little while.
Swampboy, I don't think so. Even in death, Joe Paterno haunts this goofy BOT. Today, they're waffling about their reported decision to allow the Paterno statue to remain in front of the stadium.
Antz...I think that's an indication all the leadership changes needed to make lasting change have not occurred yet. The biggest mistake they could make would be killing football, but leaving those key leaders in place. That will prevent change .... those guys have already shown they don't have the ability or desire to make the changes needed.
I think we are at a point where there is a group that believes there is nothing an institution could do to warrant the death penalty. I'm not saying they are wrong, their opinions are worthy, it's just that if this weren't a viable candidate, what is?
Husker, some trustees were on tv for damage control the afternnon the report came out. They mentioned the failure of the entire board. Someone asked about new leadership, if they were all going to step down. Chairwoman of the Board Karen Peetz' response was, "No, why would we do that?"
They still don't get it.
They still don't get it.
"Penn State Way" says it all. It is an institution problem, not just a football problem. To fix a cultural problem at an institution, you have to bring in new leadership to drive the change day to day. That would have been hard to impossible had Paterno still been around (either active or retired). With him gone and new leadership in place, it will happen with good hires because the resistence to change is gone.
To me the death penalty discussion is relevent if the institution isn't removing the cause of the problem and the resistence to change.
Antz...that's where I was going when I said focus on guilty rather than innocent. If it is deemed the trustees were/still are cultivating the culture that presented the problem, easy decision to me...take out the entire board and start over.
To me the death penalty discussion is relevent if the institution isn't removing the cause of the problem and the resistence to change.
Antz...that's where I was going when I said focus on guilty rather than innocent. If it is deemed the trustees were/still are cultivating the culture that presented the problem, easy decision to me...take out the entire board and start over.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Antz...I think that's an indication all the leadership changes needed to make lasting change have not occurred yet. The biggest mistake they could make would be killing football, but leaving those key leaders in place. That will prevent change .... those guys have already shown they don't have the ability or desire to make the changes needed.
How about the janitors, secretaries and support personnel that all were aware of the allegations, and some were witnesses? Do they get to stay?
"Just following orders" was proven a non starter at Nuremberg.
What happened was that the whole university, and ALL of its employees instituted, subscribed to, and willfully allowed a corrupt system of administration to exist. People make decisions everyday about who they will work for, under what circumstances and conditions, and to what personal benefit. Taking a job is not a guarantee, it is a risk. We weigh the risk and then decide. How many employees of the athletic department didn't know that they had hitched their wagon to Joe Paternos star? Every Dang One Of 'Em. And when the star falls, so do they.
The culture there, and that is EVERYONE, was to worship JoePa and follow him blindly. For that there are consequences, and why should those not be paid by the minions that helped to reinforce that everyday?
Do you think it was wrong for the commanders in the German theater to make the residents of the local village help clean up the concentration camps that they so conveniently overlooked, or were those residents innocents because they didn't participate in a hands on way?
There are not innocents here, just degrees of guilty.
what a well thought thread.... thanks for the different thoughts and opinions.
If you really believe that cplz, the entire school needs to be shut down. Shutting down the football program won't change what you are talking about.
To follow your Nuremberg example, that would have been to shut down Germany. We both know that wouldn't have fixed that problem. You have to take out leadership, instill leadership that gets it, and remove the resistence to change.
To follow your Nuremberg example, that would have been to shut down Germany. We both know that wouldn't have fixed that problem. You have to take out leadership, instill leadership that gets it, and remove the resistence to change.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
Husker, some trustees were on tv for damage control the afternnon the report came out. They mentioned the failure of the entire board. Someone asked about new leadership, if they were all going to step down. Chairwoman of the Board Karen Peetz' response was, "No, why would we do that?"
They still don't get it.
At one time "taking responsibility" for mistakes really meant accepting responsibility and accepting a price must be paid. Usually that meant a demotion or resignation.
Today it seems that the price of taking responsibility for a mistake is just stating that your are taking responsibility. Nothing more.
The phrase has become meaningless.
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Excellent point Jimmy...I could not agree more!
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Excellent point Jimmy...I could not agree more!
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"The Trustees today do not 'wear the hat' enough."
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- "The Trustees today do not 'wear the hat' enough."
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quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
If you really believe that cplz, the entire school needs to be shut down. Shutting down the football program won't change what you are talking about.
To follow your Nuremberg example, that would have been to shut down Germany. We both know that wouldn't have fixed that problem. You have to take out leadership, instill leadership that gets it, and remove the resistence to change.
Here is where we disagree. Although the entire school is guilty, like I said, there are degrees of guilt, the brunt of that mantle should be worn by the athletic department since that's where it manifested from.
We didn't have to burn Germany to the ground to effect change, the same is true at PSU. Wipe out the football program, inflict maximum monetary pain on athletics, send the message that "blindly following has consequences", and yes, I do believe that will go a long way to a burgeoning of a new way of doing business at Penn State and, if you're a believer in deterrents, will send a message across the collegiate landscape.
But the culture we are trying to get rid of, that you believe is throughout the athletic department, will still be present in the other sports...which will allow it to live. That's why just issuing the death sentence to football won't work. It is the "Penn State Way".... You have to bring in new leadership to change the culture. A good start might be to bring back Vicky Triponey. Someone who gets what needs to be done and recognizes what it isn't would be great. And, what a strong message it would send.
quote:Here is where we disagree. Although the entire school is guilty, like I said, there are degrees of guilt, the brunt of that mantle should be worn by the athletic department since that's where it manifested from.
Sounds like that may not be the case. I'll be honest, I haven't listened to much of it lately, but I did read an article the other day that said Penn State was being investigated for violating numerous Federal laws. These included violent crimes and student-on-student sexual assault, etc.
While what happened at Pen State is deplorable, what makes anyone think that nearly any SEC college has a similar culture (football first, look the other way) that is any different than Pen State’s? There is a long history here, and Pen State is just the latest example.
Part of the punishment should also be that the Board must resign or be removed in total. The football program should receive the death penalty as an example to other universities where football is more important than the moral standing of the university. Maybe, just maybe then, other football schools will think twice before they allow some of the things going on especially with some of the thugs they recruit.
BOF,
I know you hate to miss any chance to slam the SEC, but don't you sense any obligation to provide some evidence for that outrageous bit of moral equivalence? That was an extraordinarily irresponsible slur.
Yes, you hear a lot about SEC players who get arrested, suspended, and dismissed. You also hear about SEC coaches who get fired for various shenanigans. But that is precisely the difference.
In the SEC, the crimes and misdemeanors are aired out, offenders are dealt with (often more leniently than I might prefer), and life goes on. Penn State appears to have been just as willing to enroll thugs and hooligans, but they weren't willing to take the drip, drip of prompt public acknowledgement of their various failings. By sheltering coaches and players from normal accountability while pretending to be special, they created a specially toxic culture.
I know you hate to miss any chance to slam the SEC, but don't you sense any obligation to provide some evidence for that outrageous bit of moral equivalence? That was an extraordinarily irresponsible slur.
Yes, you hear a lot about SEC players who get arrested, suspended, and dismissed. You also hear about SEC coaches who get fired for various shenanigans. But that is precisely the difference.
In the SEC, the crimes and misdemeanors are aired out, offenders are dealt with (often more leniently than I might prefer), and life goes on. Penn State appears to have been just as willing to enroll thugs and hooligans, but they weren't willing to take the drip, drip of prompt public acknowledgement of their various failings. By sheltering coaches and players from normal accountability while pretending to be special, they created a specially toxic culture.
quote:Part of the punishment should also be that the Board must resign or be removed in total. The football program should receive the death penalty as an example to other universities where football is more important than the moral standing of the university. Maybe, just maybe then, other football schools will think twice before they allow some of the things going on especially with some of the thugs they recruit.
Amen to that. To get rid of the cancer, you got to get rid of it all in entirety, no piecewise.
Tx-Husker, for the Baylor case, the defendant got 35 years in prison. In the Penn State case, what would you expect Sandusky get, 350 years?
Penn State scandal will go down as the worst scandal in college sport, ever.
quote:Tx-Husker, for the Baylor case, the defendant got 35 years in prison. In the Penn State case, what would you expect Sandusky get, 350 years?
I wouldn't pretend to know. He could get just 35 years...it won't matter. It's a life sentence to him. I don't think he should get any special treatment...throw him in general population.
He is guilty of over 40 counts. Even if each counts call for 10 years( I suspect more), it will be at least 400 years.
Another fallacy in the argument is that death penalty means no football. Penn State could still have a football team but not at where it once was. They have to start from ground up, just like Germany did after WWII. Re-build from ground up and get rid of the cancer.
Another fallacy in the argument is that death penalty means no football. Penn State could still have a football team but not at where it once was. They have to start from ground up, just like Germany did after WWII. Re-build from ground up and get rid of the cancer.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:quote:Tx-Husker, for the Baylor case, the defendant got 35 years in prison. In the Penn State case, what would you expect Sandusky get, 350 years?
I wouldn't pretend to know. He could get just 35 years...it won't matter. It's a life sentence to him. I don't think he should get any special treatment...throw him in general population.
That's a good point. He should be thrown in the general population of the harshest prison that Pennsylvania has to offer where he can be dealt with according to his deeds (my understanding is that even hard-core felons disapprove of child molesters).
If we find out he is placed in some type of minimum security, club-fed type of arrangement however, then we'll know that the fix is in even at the highest levels of authority.
quote:
Maybe they could put horns on his head. That would signify where the man is right now.
quote:The football program was a complicit accomplice in raping children and covering it up. Coaches, The AD, administrators and janitors were all involved.
No kids will be harmed by closing it down, they can transfer. Sure, other programs will get hacked, but good, pain is good.
The only real teacher in life is pain. The more painful the lesson, the more it is remembered. This is something that should never be forgotten.
The football program was the tool used to rape little boys and some people don't understand why the football program needs to go? Baffling...
Amen to that too. Germany and Japan went thru pains after WWII. Greece (and others) is now going thru pains with their financial situation. Suicide rate has multiplied in Greece; talk about heartbreak in their families. History are full of examples of co-lateral damages. The citizen of an institution/country has to manage and be involved in their own administration and moral culture. Penn State's football culture has gone bad for over 14 years, firing a few people and black-sheeping them would not change the culture. Re-build and start fresh, for example at a division-III football team level, banned from giving any scholarships to the athletics, and/or deny them of any meaning conferences.
I believe that there are all types of things going on at the big time football level because so much money is at stake for these Universities. And when they get caught and have to deal with the probation's, fines etc etc I have no problem with it at all. But this PSU situation is taking it to a level that I quite frankly can't even wrap my mind around. These are grown men with children and families. They turned their back to the most outrageous crime there is in my opinion. They allowed it to continue and even provided a location and venue for this animal to prey on his victims.
Its one thing to cheat to gain an advantatge to win games. It's an entirely different thing to allow kids to be raped in the name of protecting your coaches legacy, football programs rep, ability to bring in big time players to win games and make money. I am not making light of cheating to gain an advantage. I am only pointing out imo there is a big difference in the two.
If PSU is not worthy of the death penalty then no one is.
Its one thing to cheat to gain an advantatge to win games. It's an entirely different thing to allow kids to be raped in the name of protecting your coaches legacy, football programs rep, ability to bring in big time players to win games and make money. I am not making light of cheating to gain an advantage. I am only pointing out imo there is a big difference in the two.
If PSU is not worthy of the death penalty then no one is.
quote:If PSU is not worthy of the death penalty then no one is.
Amen to that too. That was my dilemma at the beginning. If it was only a one time incidence, that's a different story and we could perhaps rationalize it to one sick incidence, one time deviation.
But this is over 14 years and over countless victims, involving people at all levels from janitors to the AD and to the president. That is why I am invoking Hitler and draw the parallelism. There was this toxic culture of Hitler could do no wrong and the citizen too memorized by his "successes".
quote:Originally posted by bball123:quote:The football program was a complicit accomplice in raping children and covering it up. Coaches, The AD, administrators and janitors were all involved.
No kids will be harmed by closing it down, they can transfer. Sure, other programs will get hacked, but good, pain is good.
The only real teacher in life is pain. The more painful the lesson, the more it is remembered. This is something that should never be forgotten.
The football program was the tool used to rape little boys and some people don't understand why the football program needs to go? Baffling...
Amen to that too. Germany and Japan went thru pains after WWII. Greece (and others) is now going thru pains with their financial situation. Suicide rate has multiplied in Greece; talk about heartbreak in their families. History are full of examples of co-lateral damages. The citizen of an institution/country has to manage and be involved in their own administration and moral culture. Penn State's football culture has gone bad for over 14 years, firing a few people and black-sheeping them would not change the culture. Re-build and start fresh, for example at a division-III football team level, banned from giving any scholarships to the athletics, and/or deny them of any meaning conferences.
Just a point--NCAA bylaws would not allow them to participate at a D-III level nor does the NCAA have plenary power over conference membership.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
He should be thrown in the general population of the harshest prison that Pennsylvania has to offer where he can be dealt with according to his deeds (my understanding is that even hard-core felons disapprove of child molesters).
I think its a waste of time to sit around imagining prison rape to get satisfaction out of Sandusky's punishment. He's nothing more than the aberation that should have been delt with sooner, who is just another form of crazy. Poor ******* was born with his wires crossed in a way that just gets us normal people Super disgusted. It unfortunately happens once in a while, with millions of people being born every day, and to me its not so intriguing. You just have to find it and lock it up as soon as possile.
But the main question in this thread is very interesting to me, and I think its a pretty good debate. A culture and its leaders, who supposedly are NOT this kind of crazy, finding a way to let it be. Letting it live out in the fieldhouse across the way where they KNEW it was, every day when they went home.
I want to know weather it was the MAIN thing eating at their guts every night, or if it was considered one of the several Board Member issues they thought they confronted, lumped in with stuff like tuition pricing, endowments, and foriegn student mix, etc.
Did they pretty much forget about it, and have to be reminded when they watched stuff like "To Catch a Predator" on T.V., and then maybe bury back in their conscience? Or did they reglarly meet in private to agonize over what to do, or have gut-wrenching arguments about it?
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
I think its a waste of time to sit around imagining prison rape to get satisfaction out of Sandusky's punishment. He's nothing more than the aberation that should have been delt with sooner, who is just another form of crazy. Poor ******* was born with his wires crossed in a way that just gets us normal people Super disgusted. It unfortunately happens once in a while, with millions of people being born every day, and to me its not so intriguing. You just have to find it and lock it up as soon as possile.
What is remarkable is your liberal statements and subsequent comfort toward a convicted pedophile.
For the record:
"Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children."
quote:Originally posted by Bear:quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
I think its a waste of time to sit around imagining prison rape to get satisfaction out of Sandusky's punishment. He's nothing more than the aberation that should have been delt with sooner, who is just another form of crazy. Poor ******* was born with his wires crossed in a way that just gets us normal people Super disgusted. It unfortunately happens once in a while, with millions of people being born every day, and to me its not so intriguing. You just have to find it and lock it up as soon as possile.
What is remarkable is your liberal statements and subsequent comfort toward a convicted pedophile.
For the record:
"Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children."
There's nothing liberal nor comfortable about it. People that wish rape on other people, even if pedophiles, are disgusting.