Small plus defensive CF

Do an inexpensive local showcase to get his measurable metrics. Then figure out what needs to be improved the most and what direction to take. If he was ready to showcase people who have seen him and know the game would be telling him. Being strong defensively is nice. But baseball recruiting starts with driving the ball consistently. Right now your son should focus on getting bigger, faster, stronger and more skilled.

To be honest if he’s throwing out several hitters at first base from the outfield I have to question the competition he’s competing against. It’s a very infrequent play once past 13u.

Your specific question is "what type of college environment can he aspire to, if any?  

Realistically, it is too early to tell.  Based on his size, your assessment as a late bloomer and his other measurables remaining a work in progress (and the fact that you didn't rave about his hitting), he won't get recruited any time soon by any level.  And since he is a likely late bloomer with neither parent having significant size, the most likely level eventually will be D3/NAIA.  That is not to say that he can't eventually become a 6.7 speed guy and develop into a great hitter along with his great routes and transfers and get attention at higher levels.  Just unlikely at this point.  

Unfortunately, the skill set that is his strength (great routes and transfers) is not as important to recruiters as hitting, arm strength, speed, etc.  So, he will have to get bigger, stronger, faster and most importantly, become a very good hitter against good pitching in order to get college attention.  The good news is he is a 2022 and has time to grow and work into being that player.  

You don't say a word about hitting.  This is a pretty good time to be a vertically challenged position player.  If you look at recent high draft choices like Nick Madrigal, and top MLB hitters like Jose Altuve there seems to be less of a premium on size than just a few years back. But the kid needs to hit.  And he's got to get that 60 time under 7.  He's young enough that he should be able to with a little speed training.

One of my son's HS teammates was a 5' 6" CF/LHP.  He got zero attention out of HS, but after playing well in Juco, he was signed by a D1 and then drafted.  But he rakes and throws 90.  Gotta have more than one skill. 

First showcase is in two weeks. We'll see where the metrics are and what the coaches say. Thx for the feedback!  

A 2022 running a 7.1?   There is no way to project that...

If he's undersized, the faster the better.  That's true with any athlete but great speed can make up for lack of size.

Make sure he is working on his hitting, a lot.  You cannot steal first base.  And make sure he is playing top flight competition, hopefully he never again guns someone down at first!  

If he can get to running a 6.5 60, doors & opportunities will fly open for him.  But he still needs to hit

OK, so you heard from every single poster about the importance of the hit tool, right ??  

Here's something else you may battle... I had a player that just finished a reasonably successful first year at a D3 as a MIF.  He was undersized throughout HS, despite trying everything in the book to add weight and muscle and working his tail off in the gym and on his game.  He is an excellent infielder w/very accurate arm and quick transfer.  He is a very consistent hit-for-average guy with a swing mechanic that plays in college.  But, he isn't particularly fast and doesn't have power as a hitter.  Parents focused on his strengths and were very frustrated in the recruiting process - like all of us parents, tended to overlook the tools he lacked that RC's held more important (hit for power and/or above average speed).  Mid level D3 was the right fit for his skill set.  They had to search long and hard to find that right fit.

Just put him on a calorie surplus and have him keep working. For now he's just a kid with a good arm, not a prospect. He can become one but he's going to have to get that weight up and 60 time lower as well. He has a ways to go before college coaches would show interest. 

Update:

60 yd - 7.1

Exit velo - 77

Outfield velo- 74

Infield velo -73

D1 coaches feedback - nice line drive approach, hits ball hard. Accurate arm. Focus on getting stronger.

Thoughts?

The comments are a pat on the head to keep playing and come back next year. 

In the college world teams have multiple centerfield prospects who can track balls. Most recruited outfielders will have played center in high school. For a short line drive hitter he’s going to need to fly to be a difference maker.

Has he started shaving yet?  That is about the time to get on a strength and weight training program.  This is usually done outside of baseball, with a proper sports specific trainer.  There are weight gainers (supplements) out there, too.  It was winter of freshman year when my son started on a weight and strength program.  There are running coaches out there, too, and maybe just a few lessons will help.   Sub 7 is usually the metric coaches look for.  Unless your son consistently hit home runs.  

It can't be stressed enough:  you gotta be able to hit.

Just started shaving (like once a week) and weight training. Curious if you can project an increase in 60 times from 15u to 17u? Travel coach has him leading off. Playing a PG event this weekend. We'll see how it goes...

Meant a decrease in 60 time.

KidRock posted:

Meant a decrease in 60 time.

Absolutely.  Some improvement will probably happen by itself, but like Keewart says, a little help from a speed coach can go a long way.

It's still very early for your son, and a lot of things have to develop. For comparison's sake, my 2018 plays at a D3 equivalent as a starting CF and is doing well. He is superb defensively (SS, CF), a great runscorer(high OBP, baserunner). Had some interest at HA D1's, but they weren't beating down the door. All American in the weight room. His stats as a HS senior:

5'9"

165 lb.(now 185- maxed out, IMO)

6.9/60

91 mph OF Velo (now mid 90's)

mid 80's INF velo

mid 80's exit velo

intangibles out the wazoo defensively and offensively. Hit well as a gap hitter in Showcases.

As a Freshman he was 5'7", 145lb, Ran about 7.2/60. Threw around 80 MPH from the OF, 75 or so from INF. He hit the weights HARD as a Sophomore.

What we found got the most interest from RC's was his arm velo. Speed was also nice, but more commonplace. Once they saw him in person they were impressed with his D, but it was more like, "yeah, we can use that" rather than falling all over themselves to get him. I think it was his total pkg. as a smallish, runscoring, versatile(mid 80's off the mound) defensive whiz that interested teams, with his arm strength being the "special sauce' that made him stick out. Had multiple offers from D3's, lotsa interest/offers from D2's(some wanted to convert him to P), and some D1 interest.

  There is no doubt that as a smaller player you have to work harder. AS a P, it's even harder if you are sub 6', never mind 5'10".

  Good luck. I've got a 2022 also, but he is already 6', so a different type than my 1st.

57,

That was incredibly useful info. Thx for sharing!

PG25 qualifier was a great event - although incredibly spread out. Hit .333 with 6 runs scored and 5sb. Made it to semis and lost to champs. Made some special plays and there out and threw a runner trying to tag from 2nd to 3rd on a semi deep liner to left center. Even got props from the opposing parents!

But even at PG I don’t think there were any scouting types watching 15u baseball

Congrats to him on a successful event.  Should make him more confident to do the same when more RC's are watching and should help fuel the fire to keep at it!

KidRock posted:

57,

That was incredibly useful info. Thx for sharing!

PG25 qualifier was a great event - although incredibly spread out. Hit .333 with 6 runs scored and 5sb. Made it to semis and lost to champs. Made some special plays and there out and threw a runner trying to tag from 2nd to 3rd on a semi deep liner to left center. Even got props from the opposing parents!

But even at PG I don’t think there were any scouting types watching 15u baseball 

College coaches don't watch random tournament games. They watch players and teams they are familiar with. If something catches their eye in between, which happens often, they stick around but just because something has a brand attached to it does not make it better. So that 17u PG tournament won't do you any good unless your team has stud players, the other team has stud players or you have reached out to them. There are a ton of players at the 17u WWBA this weekend that won't have a single coach watching them. 

Scouts / Recruiters do come and watch 15U tournament games.  We've had about 3 or 4 scouts at 1/2 the games we've played this year (helps to have 1 kid that throws 91-92 with several offers already), but they've stayed and watched the rest of the team as well because we are a good program with lots of good kids from all over DFW. 

Like you, I have a CF and we will be doing a PG in August.  Hope to put up 90 OF, 90 EV, and sub 6.8.  He's 5'11 and 180.

Going to a PG tournament, or any other big tournament hoping to be discovered is not a great idea. I’m not talking about the already identified top talent. I’m talking about all the rest. This includes a lot of D1 talent. About 2500-3000 players will go D1. But a lot of them will just blend in.

A player wants to go to a major PG tournament presold. The travel coach recommends the player. The college coach comes to see the recommendation. Otherwise, you’re  just tossing spaghetti off the wall to see if some sticks. Your one hope as an unmarketed undiscovered, as someone else mentioned is have a teammate coaches are coming to see, perform while they’re there and draw attention.

At a PG showcase an undiscovered player might put up some metrics that draws interest.

At 15, unless you're 6'2", most HC/RC will not pay much attention.  Unfortunately size is needed to pass the eye test of many HC/RC.   I would concentrate on getting stronger and faster.  If there are HC/RC at 15U PG tourneys, most likely they are there looking at pitchers.  I would concentrate on finding opportunity with a good travel team and to continue to improve skills while showcasing them in front of all divisions.  Eventually you will know where your 2022 fits in by which schools/divisions are showing the most interest. There is plenty of time to get noticed as a 2022!  

I have mentioned this many times on the board.  The 6'2" 210 kid will get every opportunity to prove he can't play and the 5'9" player will get some opportunity to prove that he can play.  Unfortunately it is the reality of college baseball.

JABMK posted:

At 15, unless you're 6'2", most HC/RC will not pay much attention.  Unfortunately size is needed to pass the eye test of many HC/RC.   I would concentrate on getting stronger and faster.  If there are HC/RC at 15U PG tourneys, most likely they are there looking at pitchers.  I would concentrate on finding opportunity with a good travel team and to continue to improve skills while showcasing them in front of all divisions.  Eventually you will know where your 2022 fits in by which schools/divisions are showing the most interest. There is plenty of time to get noticed as a 2022!  

I have mentioned this many times on the board.  The 6'2" 210 kid will get every opportunity to prove he can't play and the 5'9" player will get some opportunity to prove that he can play.  Unfortunately it is the reality of college baseball.

I would agree, but would also say that the RC's start falling all over themselves if you're 6'4" + to see if you can play. I've lost count of the tall "raw players" that were on my son's teams over the years. Kind of silly, IMO, and lazy on the recruiter's part.

Pitching comes first. It’s why coaches fall all over 6’4”+ kids to see how hard they throw. If a position player can drive the ball and run it doesn’t matter what size he is. But once down to mid major recruiting a lot of players look the same. Now it’s a matter of what a player does to stand out. A lot of players would be better served attending regional tournaments and showcases in the area they’ve targeted than national events where all the studs are drawing away the attention. 

Hi all:

Just wanted to update this thread to see if anyone has any additional insight. Three months later, 2022 is 5"8 - 125 lbs. Just did a local combine put on by one of the big players. 

Stats were pretty similar, except his 60 is now sub 6.9. The strength training (only once a week in the summer) seems to be helping, but he has actually only run the 60 three times in his life; 2019 tryouts in Fall 2018, 2019 travel club workout day in late June 2019, and this most recent one. In mentioning standouts, scouting organization listed him in the most projectable athlete category. Not sure if that is a back handed complement. What does that really  mean?

I did a little research on 60 times and it seems like a sub 6.9 for a sophomore puts you in pretty select category. On one of the national sites, I found less than 150 such times nationwide. Does this sound right? 

As many wise people have mentioned, you can't steal first. His BP at the event was pleasing to the eye. Still looks like a line drive hitter, but ball is definitely carrying further with some underspin. I was disappointed in his exit velo numbers but he mentioned to me that he felt he was getting under the ball a little too much. Any thoughts as to whether it's better to purposefully hit down on the ball when it's on a tee, for EV purposes?

He will begin baseball specific strength training in earnest in November, once fall showcase and varsity soccer season is done. Being multisport makes quality weight room time tough in the early fall. Winter is varsity ice hockey season but much less time consuming as it isn't as intense a schedule (this isn't Boston, Detroit, or Minnesota :0).

FYI fall showcase club is an 18u team. Splits time evenly in CF with a junior. His related summer 15u team got a PG National Ranking honorable mention and beat a handful of ranked teams along the way. On that team, he was only kid to play every inning of every game.

TIA!

Sounds like he's in a great place... just needs to continue the hard work, be patient and let nature and chocolate milk help him along 

I get that he plays other sports but strength training once a week isn't going to do too much. That goes for anything. Not going to see real weight loss results if you're only in the gym once a week, not going to get much stronger if you're only working out once a week. 

It sounds like he wants to play baseball at the next level. If he wants to do that he needs to wake up early and get to the gym before school or go late at night. That's part of the gig of playing college baseball - putting in extra work. I understand he is young and still growing but he still weighs 125 lbs. You can do great at all the showcases in the world, until he gets the weight up it's fairly pointless.  

He should be getting on a calorie surplus now - more food/protein shakes and weight room. Even if it starts with waking up and doing a pushup/pull-up/sit-up circuit at home for 30 minutes. Hockey isn't too kind to the smaller guys either. 

I agree about hitting the weights and gain weight. Even at 5'7 he should probably at least try to get to 150, at 115 he just won't have enough power. 

Agree w Cabbage, he is improving.  Sometimes, a boy's body just has to develop

Here is where my boy stood exactly 2 years ago as a HS Sophomore: (he is young for his grade, July birthday)

5'7" 160

IF Velo 75

Exit Velo 73

60 7.3

This past summer:

5'9" 170

IF velo up to 91

Exit velo 90

60  6.8 several times, as low as 6.65

Over those two years, he did normal strength training at school, but nothing intense.  Now as a committed senior, workouts at school 4x per week (again, not intense) then works out 3 x per week with former VU baseball and football players which does get intense.  Working on quickness, explosion, flexibility in every direction, hands (is a SS), core, etc.  

Point being, he is not lazy, but he did not work extra hard during those school workouts.  His body just seemed to finally come together.  Since your boy is athletic, I would expect the same.

Edit:  I did not address the weight of your boy.  Like they said ^^

Gotta get some "man muscle" on the kid's body.   Sounds a lot like my son.   He was (and is) all fast twitch, thin as a reed and as fast as the wind.  He was an outfielder in high school and college (briefly).

He could chase the ball down with the best of them.   High school track coach, who helped him improve his 60 times when he decided he was serious about playing in college,  actually tried to recruit him for his summer elite track club ... said he had the makings of an elite sprinter, just needed to work on his technique.  

He could also hit.  (well he was a tad bit streaky.  he had his can't miss it games and his can't hit it games.)   But he did have a really sweet swing with enough bat speed to handle just about any fast ball he saw in HS, travel ball, and at the D3 level.  As the pitching got better,  it was wicked sliders and curve balls that were his downfall.     But even if he got hold of a fastball, which he often did, it wasn't likely to go out of many parks  -- though he did hit one granny once and was a doubles machine, when he was on.  

In HS, he got get a few sideways D1 looks, mainly because of his foot speed and his bat speed but every single one of the  D1 guys who looked at him basically gave him the message that  he needed to put some serious man muscle on, if he hoped to seriously compete at their level. 

His HS  strength and conditioning coach had the goal of getting him to 170 by HS graduation. " If we can get you to 170, you will be unstoppable"  he used to say to the kid to try and motive him.

Unfortunately, that never  happened.  I think that was partly that because the kid just wouldn't eat like an athlete.  Ate like just your average American teenager.  Not good for building man muscle.

 He did manage to touch like 145 his freshman year in college, but he's back down to 135 after college.  Rapid fire metabolism, not a lot of time to cook, and a tight budget,  I guess.   He played well enough at his elite D3  his frosh year, but for various reasons decided to voluntarily hang 'em up, sophomore year.  Biggest surprise ever.  Didn't see it coming.

 Anyway, bottom line fast twitch small guys who are super athletic have a pretty steep hill to climb.   There are a fair number of smallish guys at some good D3.  But "man muscle"  matters even at that level. 

Hang in there Kidrock.  My son is 5'7 170.  He does have the man meat, pretty much 0 body fat and he has been in the gym 2+hours a day for the last 3 years.  His is currently a senior in high school.  He also plays CF and is very quick on tracking the ball.  He run a 6.51/60, vertical reach 44", exit Velo 92, and avg Velo in the outfield.  If you son can get in the gym he has a change.   Mostly likely only a few opportunities, and will need to jump on the opportunity when it comes.  Taking from my sons experience, when you go the the big showcases and tournaments, not many are looking at the kid that is 5'7.  There are too many other bigger kids there.  We were not getting much traction, some but not a lot, but one of his emails and videos caught a coaches eye.  This summer (summer before SR year) He was invited to one of the out of country camps and play with the coach for a week.  After talking with his travel ball coach, we got the advice to go, since having a coach watch him play for a whole week is a lot more looks that you get in a showcase.  My son played great that week and got close to a offer there at the camp.  Then we went to the P5 School's showcase camp at the end of the summer.  My son got the offer there at the camp and took it.   So there is still time for your son, but he is going to need to pack on the muscle and find an opportunity where he can shine and stick out.

Update while doing nothing in hotel room room waiting for 2nd WWBA pool game.

kid has become workout and food obsessed.

body is chiseled.

kid is now 5”10 140lbs not quite16.5 years

OF velo - 84

exit velo - 85 - developing gap power

10yd split - 1.46 

60yd - 6.65 (laser timed)

stealing third on committed d1 catchers.

can almost dunk a basketball.

Travel coach says his ability to read the ball off the bat is impossible to teach.

Private school GPA is 3.85 out of a possible 4. 

At this point, should he be targeting  D1 or HA DIII? It will be interesting g to see if any D1 coaches reach out in September.

Looking forward to reading the venerable collective wisdom!

First, you don’t steal third off catchers. You steal third off pitchers. 

His sixty time is D1 level. His arm isn’t. It’s hard to picture chiseled at 5’10” 140. He should weigh at least 160 by now. It’s hard to picture a 140 pounder driving the ball. The throwing and exit velocity is below D1. 

On paper he appears far more likely to draw interest from D3 than D1. If he was consistently driving the ball at a D1 exit velocity and weighed at least 160 he could be a mid major prospect with his speed. 

The real question to become a mid major prospect is how much bulk can he put on before next summer? How much can he improve his exit velocity and his throwing arm? The problem is while there may be mid major recruiting spots still available post junior year it’s the back end of the recruiting class. And recruiting will be a mess and very challenging the next couple of years due to COVID. Over recruiting will be a bigger than normal issue the next couple of years.

A player should go where he’s loved  and has a great shot at getting on the field regardless of level. And if not a pro prospect academics moves higher up the scale than they should already be. A D3 prospect can get on the radar this summer. But the recruiting is likely to occur next summer for a ‘22.

Kid Rock:

Some nice gains by your son since your last post. Since speed is one of his top tools, you'll want to try future events to lower the 60 even more if possible.

Even more, I suggest that you have his HTF (home to first) time clocked. This is a measure that most 3rd parties don't do regularly, but you could ask. Son recorded his first HTF early junior year with Baseball Factory (really fast), which he later verified in another Showcase he would do sponsored by Rawlings. This set him apart.

I was wondering if he is still playing three sports (which my son did through HS). He dropped Hoops his sophomore year and ran indoor track, which did develop his running technique. It comes as no surprise that his fastest showcase 60 was in December in Florida (during the heart of his New England indoor track season).

My son's height and weight when he graduated was identical to your son's.  He was a MI/CF. Your question is whether to target D1 or HA D3. Why not try for a combo (D1-HA)? You are probably finding that being undersized requires more effort on the player to reach out to schools. I am not sure how much of it your son has done.  He has got some tools. Now the big thing is getting schools to watch him play. He should also keep his grades where they are and take SAT soon (with prep). His academics can serve as a tiebreaker in recruiting. (Is his 3.85 GPA unweighted?)

There are two CF's the town over who are 2020's and both are D1 commits.   Here are their stats and why I think your son is very much a likely a D1 player if he continues to develop. Might not be P5 but could end up at a very good program.  Your son also sounds like an incredible athlete which coaches love.  

CF #1 - 6 foot 2 inches, 200 pounds.   6.56 60, 90 OF Velo, 100 Exit Velo - A beast of a player, GT commit

CF #2 - a better comp.  6 Foot even, 165 pounds.  6.49 60, 90 OF Velo, 92 Exit Velo (I question this figure tho as I've seen him hit but could have just been good pitching that day).  Good fielder tho and crazy fast.   UConn commit.  Father pitched for RedSox so perhaps that helps.....

Bawitdaba da bang da bang diggy diggy diggy

Good gains. Still he should gain more weight. He shouldn't weigh 190+ at 5'10 as that would slow him down but 160-170 would help his power and throwing without getting slower. So continue to eat a lot and lift hard as well as work on throwing and hitting.

Also continue to work on speed. If he could shave off another tenth or two it would help his stock even more.

My son, very similar numbers at that age. He starts at a D1, earned the DH role as a freshman, moved on to OF. HIT THE BALL. Rip is correct about the HTF time. Hopefully it’s around 4.0. Is the 60 on a laser or hand timed?  Hand timed carries less weight. Coaches may not believe he is capable. Believe in yourself. Keep working. 

60 was laser timed at a regional showcase by one of the big boys.

Has not had HTF done in a couple of years.

He’ll continue to put in the work and see what happens. Plans to start reaching out to coaches very actively as soon as we get back.

Hopefully he’ll have good stuff to report from WWBA!

Did your son and his travel coaching staff reach out to coaching staffs preselling prior to WWBA? Coaches don’t really go to WWBA wondering what they will discover. They go with the intent of looking at certain players. If a player is lucky he’s standing out in a game coaches came to see another player. 

WWBA was great! Amazing baseball. The Canes are ridiculous. Dirtbags Tap Out as well.

My guy hit .385 with 6 runs scored 3SB and an RBI. Even pitched 2.1 scoreless with 3k zero runs and a save. Got out of a two out bases loaded jam. Topped out at 81. 

Threw out a guy from CF at first charging a liner up the middle on turf. Fun to watch. Caveat was that it was on one of the smaller fields, though. 

But the best moment was a 13 pitch at bat off a P5 committed pitcher where  he finally lined out to CF! Was so happy he could hang!

But there were no coaches there officially. I am sure there were some hanging out incognito, but we were not in the know.