Some links to the Pedantic Pursuit of Understanding and Quantifying the Biomechanical Machinations In Athletics
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/projects/yep/sports/spinet.html
Regarding funding of sceintific study and baseball, if you'll recall, I referenced a couple of research results when discussing the serepe effect. The result was condemnation and sarcasm asking whether these scientist ever swung a bat despite the fact that the research was completed with the aid of professional baseball organizations.
jja presents Adair's views and references the text. Tom condemns him but offers zero academic/scientific research. Tom, I'm sure you have read up on this "stuff." Please, instead of condemnation, I'm making a very humble request that you reference your scientific studies.
BTW, I am impressed up to this point, how the disucssion has gone. Please don't turn this into us versus you guys. If your position has merit, explain it.
Bluedog, two very good examples of swings. I placed the cursor on Aaron's head and noticed that he "drops" or "tilts" as he begins the swing. Notice also that he has a sense of his butt sticking out. I think "tilt" is crucial to consistent swings. I also think "tilt" helps set the eyes in such a position as to make the hitter more efficient. I'm waiting for Quincy's observation on what he saw. I hope I didn't miss it in my effort to make this post.
jja presents Adair's views and references the text. Tom condemns him but offers zero academic/scientific research. Tom, I'm sure you have read up on this "stuff." Please, instead of condemnation, I'm making a very humble request that you reference your scientific studies.
BTW, I am impressed up to this point, how the disucssion has gone. Please don't turn this into us versus you guys. If your position has merit, explain it.
Bluedog, two very good examples of swings. I placed the cursor on Aaron's head and noticed that he "drops" or "tilts" as he begins the swing. Notice also that he has a sense of his butt sticking out. I think "tilt" is crucial to consistent swings. I also think "tilt" helps set the eyes in such a position as to make the hitter more efficient. I'm waiting for Quincy's observation on what he saw. I hope I didn't miss it in my effort to make this post.
quote:I placed the cursor on Aaron's head and noticed that he "drops" or "tilts" as he begins the swing. Notice also that he has a sense of his butt sticking out. I think "tilt" is crucial to consistent swings.
Aaron does sit going into footplant.....I, too, think this is important......
The glutes(butt) control the abs.....Stretching the glutes by this sitting action puts them in a better position to be able to control the abs during the swing.....
The difference is a simple but very significant one.
Notice Aaron's hands. Not palm up/palm down through the swing but palms sidewards.
His swing is fluid as compared to Dunn. Aaron's swing could be as simple as down, point, ride.
Dunn's palm up/ palm down grip demands contortion of the arms and restriction of the wrist movement. This is why he must let go of the bat. This is also why he cannot exert as much force into the swing.
Notice Aaron's hands. Not palm up/palm down through the swing but palms sidewards.
His swing is fluid as compared to Dunn. Aaron's swing could be as simple as down, point, ride.
Dunn's palm up/ palm down grip demands contortion of the arms and restriction of the wrist movement. This is why he must let go of the bat. This is also why he cannot exert as much force into the swing.
Ryno23,
You are not allowed to start any more threads without permission. Period. I tried to warn you but too late....Pandora's Box was opened.
And if you even think about "scapula loading", we will hunt you down like a dog. LOL.
Is handle torque any clearer now than it was before? Or are you convinced that the rest of us are just as crazy as we sound?
You are not allowed to start any more threads without permission. Period. I tried to warn you but too late....Pandora's Box was opened.
And if you even think about "scapula loading", we will hunt you down like a dog. LOL.
Is handle torque any clearer now than it was before? Or are you convinced that the rest of us are just as crazy as we sound?
Quincy -
I think the two main determinants to Aaron's particular sequence are the belly up and the choked grip.
The choked grip is fantastic for providing leverage to torque the handle early in the load/swing when the angle between the elbows is wide.
As this angle narrows on the approach to contact, he learned to avoid disconnecting by lots of forearm twist - back forearm pronation and lead forearm supination while at the same time avoiding disconection by keeping the left upper arm/elbow up in the swing plane and by rocking action of the scaps while keeping them locked to the torso.
Incredibly quick torso stretch and fire transferred to bathead with short swing radius.
I think the two main determinants to Aaron's particular sequence are the belly up and the choked grip.
The choked grip is fantastic for providing leverage to torque the handle early in the load/swing when the angle between the elbows is wide.
As this angle narrows on the approach to contact, he learned to avoid disconnecting by lots of forearm twist - back forearm pronation and lead forearm supination while at the same time avoiding disconection by keeping the left upper arm/elbow up in the swing plane and by rocking action of the scaps while keeping them locked to the torso.
Incredibly quick torso stretch and fire transferred to bathead with short swing radius.
I'm not surprised you would see it as anything other than the simplicity of motion.
To all you Physicists or friends of Physicists, what is the purpose and resulting influence of a "booster rocket" on...say the Space Shuttle for instance, during a normal space launch?
Wouldn't that be a bit off topic?
quote:.....what is the purpose and resulting influence of a "booster rocket".....
He might be tying it in to Clemens and steroids....
quote:The difficulty of writing on these baseball forums is that most people on these boards never took physics and can hardly understand what I'm writing even when I try to make it as simple as possible to understand. So at times I gloss over the details which virtually no one could follow.
I wonder how much Babe Ruth knew about physics?....Truth be known, he couldn't follow you either....
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Wouldn't that be a bit off topic?
What happens to the rocket's speed when the booster kicks in? I'm just thinking that if that rocket gets faster with a boost, wouldn't that bathead too? Given that two bats are propelled by the torque in the hips, wouldn't a bat that is already in motion at the start of that propelling pick-up more speed as it does in the rocket. This should be something a Physicist should be able to figure out mathematically. How about a kids merry-go-round? Doesn't the merry-go-round get easier to push when it's already moving? Doesn't it faster when that same push is given? How can the bat NOT be moving faster after the "boost"? Here would be another interesting test. How many MPH does it take to add 10 or 20 feet to a batted ball given all things equal in bat weight and pitch speed, given that the pitch was struck on the sweetspot?
Peavy (Lau type) describes it much the same way as a 2 stage action, see:
http://www.peavynet.com/news/separation.htm
"It's like having a supercharger...Mike Murphy once said 'The hands are the engine and the hips are the supercharger'. I couldn't agree more."
Neither could I.
A 2 stage rocket.
http://www.peavynet.com/news/separation.htm
"It's like having a supercharger...Mike Murphy once said 'The hands are the engine and the hips are the supercharger'. I couldn't agree more."
Neither could I.
A 2 stage rocket.
Okay, you have me there.
I can't come to a decision whether you are thinking along the lines of a rocket scientist or a space cadet.
The toughest physics decisions I have come across recently was whether to try Metamucil or stick with prunes.
I can't come to a decision whether you are thinking along the lines of a rocket scientist or a space cadet.
The toughest physics decisions I have come across recently was whether to try Metamucil or stick with prunes.
Charlie Lau is a joke.
George Brett was a hitter long before he met Lau. Brett just stroked Lau's ego and probably picked up some endorsement money.
Peavy's flat hand, or palm up/palm down grip through contact is counter productive.
The swing he demonstrates might work for very large players but it resembles a poor high school hitter's swing.
He recommends the belly button demonstration and even gets that wrong.
Hold the bat with a palms up/ palms down grip in front of your belly button and swing the bat slowly just using your wrists. Doesn't work in both directions.
The correct demonstration is to grip the bat with the knocker knuckles aligned but with palms facing side/side. You can swivel your wrists freely. Works better in the swing also.
George Brett was a hitter long before he met Lau. Brett just stroked Lau's ego and probably picked up some endorsement money.
Peavy's flat hand, or palm up/palm down grip through contact is counter productive.
The swing he demonstrates might work for very large players but it resembles a poor high school hitter's swing.
He recommends the belly button demonstration and even gets that wrong.
Hold the bat with a palms up/ palms down grip in front of your belly button and swing the bat slowly just using your wrists. Doesn't work in both directions.
The correct demonstration is to grip the bat with the knocker knuckles aligned but with palms facing side/side. You can swivel your wrists freely. Works better in the swing also.
quote:The correct demonstration is to grip the bat with the knocker knuckles aligned but with palms facing side/side. You can swivel your wrists freely. Works better in the swing also.
Sounds more like a putt to me.
I do enjoy reading this site for a laugh or two. Quincy, the metamucil line is a classic. I can't stand prunes.
I've often wondered why people "flip" on their position on science as it regards hitting. Many on this site cite, one study which might help prove their point and two weeks later, disreguard another study which doesn't. I've often wondered who has it right. I went back and was going to cite some quotes from Ri*&(^ about me being a high school teacher/coach and how that explained why I didn't know anything. The recommendation that followed? Read this scientific study by N&*(^&. (FYI, I have just about every quote saved by "r" that was made in response to anything I posted.) Scientist, people in physic, now they can't understand what is happening. For example, the pendulum model made by Booth. I looked at it and thought pretty impressive. Yet, it has limitations. It can't be the human body and as I understand it, is supposed to represent "bone structure" swinging a bat. People fault the use of a stick to hold the model in place until the point of contact. Yet, I understood. The various research scientist that have worked on this topic should not be discounted. I especially feel this way in lieu of their abilities vs some of us regular Joes who don't have a clue as to how the body works be it joints, muscles, skeletal actions etc.
I would end by mentioning that many of the "scientist" that post on this site, have coached as much baseball as any of us. I take their observations seriously as they try to explain though their skills set what we see. JMHO!
Take care!
I've often wondered why people "flip" on their position on science as it regards hitting. Many on this site cite, one study which might help prove their point and two weeks later, disreguard another study which doesn't. I've often wondered who has it right. I went back and was going to cite some quotes from Ri*&(^ about me being a high school teacher/coach and how that explained why I didn't know anything. The recommendation that followed? Read this scientific study by N&*(^&. (FYI, I have just about every quote saved by "r" that was made in response to anything I posted.) Scientist, people in physic, now they can't understand what is happening. For example, the pendulum model made by Booth. I looked at it and thought pretty impressive. Yet, it has limitations. It can't be the human body and as I understand it, is supposed to represent "bone structure" swinging a bat. People fault the use of a stick to hold the model in place until the point of contact. Yet, I understood. The various research scientist that have worked on this topic should not be discounted. I especially feel this way in lieu of their abilities vs some of us regular Joes who don't have a clue as to how the body works be it joints, muscles, skeletal actions etc.
I would end by mentioning that many of the "scientist" that post on this site, have coached as much baseball as any of us. I take their observations seriously as they try to explain though their skills set what we see. JMHO!
Take care!
quote:Sounds more like a putt to me.
Must be them darn prunes acting up.
The flat hands can work pretty well for the door knocker grip and for standing well off plate.
Lau could never figure out how the belly uppers work.
The key is the lead arm extension sequence which is necessary for staying connected (string tension) to the torso without deceleration before contact.
One way to feel ths is lead arm extension/top hand releas, but this only works with a long swing radius/off plate style.
Extension sequence needs to be W-A-S with the S at/after contact. The A can be before or after contact.
Traditional teaching of s-a-w sequence really screws things up.
Lau could never figure out how the belly uppers work.
The key is the lead arm extension sequence which is necessary for staying connected (string tension) to the torso without deceleration before contact.
One way to feel ths is lead arm extension/top hand releas, but this only works with a long swing radius/off plate style.
Extension sequence needs to be W-A-S with the S at/after contact. The A can be before or after contact.
Traditional teaching of s-a-w sequence really screws things up.
quote:The correct demonstration is to grip the bat with the knocker knuckles aligned but with palms facing side/side. You can swivel your wrists freely. Works better in the swing also.
Do you have any photo examples of a MLB hitter at contact with this grip?
door k-nockers (nice dirty word software filter) lined up with makes it very hard to get the wide angle you need between forearms to turn the handle well early ("prelaunch torque").
Most good mlb hitters figure out this grip won't well.
mechanically seaking, I think this is why.
"flat hands" at contact is a somewhat indirect attempt to avoid disconnection/losing proper extension sequence and it can inhibit some desirable forearm twist that makes the quicker/shorter radius/more bellied up swings work.
The key to not disconnecting is just keeping the lead arm/elbow internally rotated, point of elbow up in swing plane with enough torso coil to drive swing acceleration all the way to contact.
You can "roll the wrists" (lead forearm supination/back arm extension) all you want as long as you don't disconencte the front arm or the back scap.
That's how Aaron does it.
Most good mlb hitters figure out this grip won't well.
mechanically seaking, I think this is why.
"flat hands" at contact is a somewhat indirect attempt to avoid disconnection/losing proper extension sequence and it can inhibit some desirable forearm twist that makes the quicker/shorter radius/more bellied up swings work.
The key to not disconnecting is just keeping the lead arm/elbow internally rotated, point of elbow up in swing plane with enough torso coil to drive swing acceleration all the way to contact.
You can "roll the wrists" (lead forearm supination/back arm extension) all you want as long as you don't disconencte the front arm or the back scap.
That's how Aaron does it.
What a list of contradictions.
You must be trying to baffle yourself with that stuff.
I'm sure not dazzled by it.
You must be trying to baffle yourself with that stuff.
I'm sure not dazzled by it.
Do any of you guys have jobs?
Off topic again.
Is it too much to ask that people maintain the train of thought or in many cases, delusion?
Is it too much to ask that people maintain the train of thought or in many cases, delusion?
Lol.
Just saw these Youtube clips from a HS baseball HR derby held this year. How do these kids look mechanically?
http://www.power-showcase.com/
http://www.power-showcase.com/
I just looked at helgeson.
definitely high level.
Does he bend over and stick his butt out ?
No.
Longest shot was over 460 ft.
definitely high level.
Does he bend over and stick his butt out ?
No.
Longest shot was over 460 ft.
Tom:
Helgeson is a big strong kid 6'3" 225 and I like his mechanics. Look at top five and draw some dictinctions.
Helgeson is a big strong kid 6'3" 225 and I like his mechanics. Look at top five and draw some dictinctions.
I saw some nice swings.
Getting back to the thread.
Something for all to think about.
If an engine is revved to redline while the car is in neutral, does it produce torque?
If I took my bat, sawed off the bat head, drilled a 12mm hex-shaped hole into the handle, then applied force in opposite directions about that hole, does it produce torque?
What happens when the car is put in gear? Oh WOW! There's the torque. Now it has something to work with.
What happens when I use my bat handle as a wrench to turn/torque a 12mm hex nut/bolt. Oh WOW! There's the torque!
When you swing, apply force the same way. Is it still hard to comprehend? Just because I'm not torquing a nut doesn't mean I'm not torquing the bat. I'm moving the bat the same way as if I was torquing down a nut/bolt.
Just because the tranny isn't in gear doesn't mean the engine isn't producing a "turning force" (torque).
Getting back to the thread.
Something for all to think about.
If an engine is revved to redline while the car is in neutral, does it produce torque?
If I took my bat, sawed off the bat head, drilled a 12mm hex-shaped hole into the handle, then applied force in opposite directions about that hole, does it produce torque?
What happens when the car is put in gear? Oh WOW! There's the torque. Now it has something to work with.
What happens when I use my bat handle as a wrench to turn/torque a 12mm hex nut/bolt. Oh WOW! There's the torque!
When you swing, apply force the same way. Is it still hard to comprehend? Just because I'm not torquing a nut doesn't mean I'm not torquing the bat. I'm moving the bat the same way as if I was torquing down a nut/bolt.
Just because the tranny isn't in gear doesn't mean the engine isn't producing a "turning force" (torque).
XV/Richard/Chamelon,
A car? Seriously...a car?
Any particular model...certainly you don't mean a Pinto? Surely you'd want at least a Mustang.
Front wheel or rear wheel drive; auto or manual transmission? Stick or on the column?
Whats scary is you believe this. Come back to earth, you're getting low on oxygen.
Ohh, on the questions I asked earlier...on a 10 pt scale you passed with a C-, but not on a 7 pt scale. Next time read and think instead of rushing. You left alot out; as long as your entire focus is on the hands you'll miss alot of points. You did very well on a couple but got sawed off at the hands on a couple also. You did better than I thought you would.
A car? Seriously...a car?
Any particular model...certainly you don't mean a Pinto? Surely you'd want at least a Mustang.
Front wheel or rear wheel drive; auto or manual transmission? Stick or on the column?
Whats scary is you believe this. Come back to earth, you're getting low on oxygen.
Ohh, on the questions I asked earlier...on a 10 pt scale you passed with a C-, but not on a 7 pt scale. Next time read and think instead of rushing. You left alot out; as long as your entire focus is on the hands you'll miss alot of points. You did very well on a couple but got sawed off at the hands on a couple also. You did better than I thought you would.
Kirk Gibson couldn't have that HR off Eckersley without the proper hand action. The hands control the "shape" of the swing. Funny, the hands are what most MLB hitters talk about. I am wrong for focusing too much on them? This thread was about the hand-le, so I didn't feel like touching on other parts of the swing.
XV,
How many kids do you work with? I just got done with tryouts for 107 girls for 12U softball, and ALL of them went after the ball with their hands, yet virtually none of them rotated their hips fully or properly sequenced the upper body with the lower body. Beginners need to be taught to properly use their bodies to swing a bat, and there is no way telling a player to use their hands will help them rotate their hips.
-JJA
How many kids do you work with? I just got done with tryouts for 107 girls for 12U softball, and ALL of them went after the ball with their hands, yet virtually none of them rotated their hips fully or properly sequenced the upper body with the lower body. Beginners need to be taught to properly use their bodies to swing a bat, and there is no way telling a player to use their hands will help them rotate their hips.
-JJA
Man, If I ever knew how much thought went into hitting a baseball I wouldn't have ever hit anything. There is a guy in the Tulsa, OK area that works only with draft projectable kids in the area that runs his instruction in the same indoor facility my kids use. He usually has an audience of guys like me eavesdropping, trying to learn something that we can use for our boys. This guys keeps it simple, simple, simple. One of his kids went in the first round last year so he has alot of credibility and even though he is working with studs, my 8 year gets it and understands his simple concepts. I have been around the game forever and I have never heard the expression "torque the handle" so I asked the guy about it. He said "Sounds complicated" That was good enough for me.
quote:Originally posted by Metropop:
Man, If I ever knew how much thought went into hitting a baseball I wouldn't have ever hit anything. There is a guy in the Tulsa, OK area that works only with draft projectable kids in the area that runs his instruction in the same indoor facility my kids use. He usually has an audience of guys like me eavesdropping, trying to learn something that we can use for our boys. This guys keeps it simple, simple, simple. One of his kids went in the first round last year so he has alot of credibility and even though he is working with studs, my 8 year gets it and understands his simple concepts. I have been around the game forever and I have never heard the expression "torque the handle" so I asked the guy about it. He said "Sounds complicated" That was good enough for me.
I think that what you brought up is a great point... look at the pro's, they don't know what they are doing (to a certain degree)... why? because they just do it. They do it naturally. The best aren't taught, they are just reminded.
quote:Beginners need to be taught to properly use their bodies to swing a bat....
True enough, they sure do.....
quote:.....and there is no way telling a player to use their hands will help them rotate their hips.
Yes, there is....If they open the front hip during the stride and load the hands against the front hip opening.....Instant stretch!
Metropop, you seem to have disappeared....Was your guy ficticious??quote:I have been around the game forever and I have never heard the expression "torque the handle" so I asked the guy about it. He said "Sounds complicated" That was good enough for me.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Beginners need to be taught to properly use their bodies to swing a bat....
True enough, they sure do.....quote:.....and there is no way telling a player to use their hands will help them rotate their hips.
Yes, there is....If they open the front hip during the stride and load the hands against the front hip opening.....Instant stretch!
Bluedog,
Do you have a clip that shows this?
Shocker, Ice Cream Man
One doesn't, one does....
Just wanna add that pitch location doesn't matter.......
This HS kid from NJ looks like he is generating alot of power without alot of effort. Is he Torquing the handle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-opaqPLZuQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-opaqPLZuQ
