Tough Decision

@fenwaysouth posted:

DanJ,

So, my son's experience (albeit 10 years) ago did include college coaches calling his high school coach and travel coach.   Specifically, these were what I call "character calls" not performance calls.   They wanted to know what kind of teammate, leader, and about his academic and athletic work ethic.   Additionally, I've known others like my son (who I've helped with HA recruiting) over the years who's high school coaches have received similar calls.

Just my experience....

My experience is the same as yours Fenway

@ReluctantO'sFan Thank’s for the feedback.  We were  pretty limited on the options for this summer because he wasn’t medically cleared to play when a lot of the tryouts were offered.  I contacted one of the programs he had played for in the past and they were happy to take a flier on him, probably are cool with my money too He’s on the C or D team but that’s fine by me.  Game reps is what we were after given all the challenges of the last year or so.  Great program and a highly respected coach.  He and I couldn’t be happier.  

By sheer dumb luck, a guy with a masters In exercise kinesiology who interned with driveline opened up shop next door to his hitting and fielding instructors and he’s been working with him for about a month with great results.  He’s in fantastic hands across the board and better yet he loves the work.  The wait for the growth spurt is always a tough one, especially when a lot of his teammates and friends are shooting to 6’/160lbs.  He’s eating like a horse now and is sitting 5’8”ish, 130.  I think he’ll get to 5’10”, maybe a little more.  Packing on some muscle shouldn’t be a problem either as it came pretty easy for me when I was his age.  He’s never going to be the physical specimen that scouts drool over, but his skill set, drive and work ethic should give him a fighting chance.  

Thanks again and best of luck to you and yours as well.  

Yes, while my comments may sound comprehensive/superlative, I do recognize they're not 100% all encompassing.  But I would argue they're EFFECTIVELY 100% as far as setting up parental (and player) expectations.  I know of a few kids who largely pinned their recruiting approach around their HS coach.  In the 11th hour, reality finally hit and they scrambled to leverage the smarter pieces available.

And yes, I have no doubt that 10 years ago, college coaches were making much more contact with HS coaches.  But the differences between now and even 10 years ago to the recruiting model are massive.

As far as character calls go, I am sure they happen, but it's been my experience that they're largely not happening these days with HS coaches.  My son has close personal relationships with lots of D1, D2, D3 and JUCO commits and the character calls to HS coaches simply aren't happening.  It's a good sample size, but I suppose it's at least possible that the sample is an aberration.  I am hearing about character INSPECTIONS, but not character calls to HS coaches.  Where college coaches are pulling their character data through first hand observation or proxies.  They're watching players in the dugouts, in between games, heading out into the field, etc.  Last summer when my son was playing travel ball, some of his teammates were approached by prospective coaches after games asking about my son.  So there's no doubt college coaches care about character and are pulling that data.

I did ask a college coach from my kid's travel program about my kid's HS coach a while back and his reply was "Is he's still coaching?!" I politely laughed and that pretty much summed it up for me

To the point that people are paying attention when you don’t think they are:

Early in jr. season, son was very interested in a specific NE D3. Seemed a good fit across the board. He made contact w coach, sent in what little video he had and a transcript.  Coach writes back expressing mild but personal interest, says keep in touch. We live a bit west of there so coach couldn’t come and see him play. I had zero hope of the coach actually  following  up with my son.

Son then  has a couple of good games offensively and defensively, and steals a couple bases. Probably the best two-game sequence in his HS career.

Right after that, coach calls and said he “saw” the games and he’s definitely interested in him. We’re scratching our heads about him seeing son play. No way that happened.

Then we learn the coach’s DAD was on vacation in our neck of the woods, had attended the games, and reported back to the coach.

The baseball world is an intimate place and sometimes it’s even smaller than you will ever know.

@smoke wrote (brilliantly) ; “the baseball world is an intimate place and sometimes it’s even smaller than you will ever know.”

Then he dropped his mic and walked off the stage.

In our experience, there definitely were calls to my son’s HS coach when he was being recruited. They were cold calls after seeing my son’s contact info in perfect game or PBR, plus some in response to my son’s outreach even though he also gave the travel coach contact info. My thought on why that might have been is maybe the HS coach has a better idea if a player can meet the demands of the sport and school at same time, and also can tell if the player works hard even if it’s “less important than travel ball”.  

@smokeminside posted:

The baseball world is an intimate place and sometimes it’s even smaller than you will ever know.

Indeed.  It just proves the old adage, "You never know who's 'watching'."

@fenwaysouth posted:

DanJ,

So, my son's experience (albeit 10 years) ago did include college coaches calling his high school coach and travel coach.   Specifically, these were what I call "character calls" not performance calls.   They wanted to know what kind of teammate, leader, and about his academic and athletic work ethic.   Additionally, I've known others like my son (who I've helped with HA recruiting) over the years who's high school coaches have received similar calls.

Just my experience....

This was my experience. College coaches contacted the high school coach to ask about character, leadership and did they keep up on their academics.

My daughter’s high school softball coach was also part of the travel program. My son’s baseball coach detested his travel team’s assistant coach. But it never got in the way.

@fenwaysouth posted:

DanJ,

So, my son's experience (albeit 10 years) ago did include college coaches calling his high school coach and travel coach.   Specifically, these were what I call "character calls" not performance calls.   They wanted to know what kind of teammate, leader, and about his academic and athletic work ethic.   Additionally, I've known others like my son (who I've helped with HA recruiting) over the years who's high school coaches have received similar calls.

Just my experience....

My son's current college coach came to one of his HS practices 3000 miles away and met with the coach and observed...

@adbono posted:

@smoke wrote (brilliantly) ; “the baseball world is an intimate place and sometimes it’s even smaller than you will ever know.”

Then he dropped his mic and walked off the stage.

I was imagining dropping his lei and grabbed his board

My son played the first 3 years of HS ball for a coach that's in the state hall of fame after a 33 year career. His senior year he played for a first-time coach (assistant to the hall of famer previously). When we were sending out emails, we always included the former coach in the contacts as well as his current coach. The current coach didn't receive any calls, but the former one received several. Probably because he was so well known and respected.

@2022NYC posted:

I was imagining dropping his lei and grabbed his board

shoots, brah...

Interesting thread.  My biggest takeaways:

1. So glad that we are not in the same boat as football and have the option of travel ball for recruiting purposes.  Football is 100% dependent on HS, can I can't imagine being stuck in a HS program with a bad coach.

2. Given that recruiting mostly happens in summer travel ball, I would base my decision almost purely on academics and social/peer group influence of the school.

3. If the school has a bad HS coach or program, then my son can learn just as much (if not more) in terms of character building.  The only time I would let the HS coach or team influence my decision is if there is truly bad influence/integrity issues (i.e. alcohol, drugs, cheating, etc.) - which I guess is related to #2 above.  I do not consider HS baseball politics, HS coach ineptitude or unfair playing time as a bad influence/integrity issue.  I guess even then, if the academics and social influence outside of the baseball team is not an issue, I would still stay in the school and not have my son play baseball for the school (he can play for one of the HS baseball alternative travel league that is becoming more popular around here).

@atlnon posted:

Interesting thread.  My biggest takeaways:

1. So glad that we are not in the same boat as football and have the option of travel ball for recruiting purposes.  Football is 100% dependent on HS, can I can't imagine being stuck in a HS program with a bad coach.

2. Given that recruiting mostly happens in summer travel ball, I would base my decision almost purely on academics and social/peer group influence of the school.

3. If the school has a bad HS coach or program, then my son can learn just as much (if not more) in terms of character building.  The only time I would let the HS coach or team influence my decision is if there is truly bad influence/integrity issues (i.e. alcohol, drugs, cheating, etc.) - which I guess is related to #2 above.  I do not consider HS baseball politics, HS coach ineptitude or unfair playing time as a bad influence/integrity issue.  I guess even then, if the academics and social influence outside of the baseball team is not an issue, I would still stay in the school and not have my son play baseball for the school (he can play for one of the HS baseball alternative travel league that is becoming more popular around here).

You could choose not to play for your HS and (theoretically) still be recruited. That’s true. But it would be a big red flag to a college RC. Not saying it couldn’t be overcome but Lucy would have a lot of splaining to do.

@adbono posted:

You could choose not to play for your HS and (theoretically) still be recruited. That’s true. But it would be a big red flag to a college RC. Not saying it couldn’t be overcome but Lucy would have a lot of splaining to do.

Yes.  Totally agree.  And I hope that drugs/alcohol/etc. issue is something that college recruiters and coaches will appreciate and respect.

But this is all theoretical for us as we don't have that problem in his HS.  We love his HS and teammates, and his HS coach values and trusts my son.

I think those are good points.  To not play HS ball, I'd want my son to be able to point to something truly egregious.  Anything less runs the risk of either looking suspect and/or coming off as white noise.

I will chime in.  Is there politics, money any of those issues in high school baseball - sure.  Are they at my sons high school - possible.  My question is - what can I do about it?  Nothing.  Deals and politicking behind closed doors are situations I have no control over - and neither does my son.   Best bet is to work towards his goal.  Is it to play in college - then work towards it.  Tune out all the noise in the background and work on what you can control and try and forget the rest. 

Atlnon - good to hear you guys have a good coach.  My son left the school when the basketball coach was made the baseball coach.  Now he was a terrible baseball coach.  In halftime during the basketball games you could hear him screaming at the players in the locker room over the crowd - he did win at basketball though.

In Wisconsin there is a High School Spring League run by the Hitters travel program (the #1 travel program in the state, and one of the best regionally.  Gavin Lux of the Dodgers, Ben Rortvedt of the Twins, and Jarred Kelenic of the Mariners all came out of that program, as well as many other MLB and MiLB players)

Alot of kids choose to play in that League instead of for their high school.  It’s well scouted by MLB, and lots of D1 commits play in it.  It’s not an issue as far as recruitment goes.  It was definitely NOT a “red flag” for my son in his recruitment, or the hundreds of other kids who came out of that league and played in college.

It could be a unique situation that isn’t available in other states.

@3and2Fastball posted:

In Wisconsin there is a High School Spring League run by the Hitters travel program (the #1 travel program in the state, and one of the best regionally.  Gavin Lux of the Dodgers, Ben Rortvedt of the Twins, and Jarred Kelenic of the Mariners all came out of that program, as well as many other MLB and MiLB players)

Alot of kids choose to play in that League instead of for their high school.  It’s well scouted by MLB, and lots of D1 commits play in it.  It’s not an issue as far as recruitment goes.  It was definitely NOT a “red flag” for my son in his recruitment, or the hundreds of other kids who came out of that league and played in college.

It could be a unique situation that isn’t available in other states.

There are a few programs like this in FL and a bunch more on the way. I was speaking to a HS coach yesterday who was telling me he is helping someone get one started and depending on how quickly it grows he might jump ship to it permanently.

Thank you all for sharing.  In hind sight the reasoning is really not relevant.  I’m sure not playing for his school may bring about some additional questions, but it’s not something that my son won’t be able to overcome.  I can’t think of another sport that leans so heavy on tradition.  We’ve seen plenty of that lately with some of the 3-0 swings lately.  

It’s really easy to blast someone that bucks the trend, but having options may save a few from leaving the game entirely too early.  I try not to judge but I also understand the views of many here and respect them.  To be honest I struggled with a lot of the same thoughts myself.  

I’m literally sitting in the parking lot of my sons physical therapist.  I’ve spent two days a week for more than a year in this same parking lot hoping that it was going to be the answer.  My son was throwing in the low 60’s at 10 and the natural progression just never really happened.  He throws during his sessions and I stepped out of the car to watch.  I’ve never seen him throw this hard.  I asked what he thinks.  He just smiled and said, “he’s grown.”  

My son will stay at his school because the academics should put him on a path of success for when baseball is done.  We too have options where he will have an opportunity to play, compete and continue the chase.  

Hopefully another parent or player comes across this thread one day when they really need it.  I’ll keep everyone posted on our experience and hopefully one day I can report a commitment to play at the next level.  My son officially starts his summer games this weekend and hopefully a lot of you are prepping for the same thing.  Thank you again and I wish you and yours nothing but the best.  

@atlnon posted:

Interesting thread.  My biggest takeaways:

2. Given that recruiting mostly happens in summer travel ball, I would base my decision almost purely on academics and social/peer group influence of the school.

I won't argue with the decision to choose a school based on Academics.  My son did this.  But understand the cost of playing/practicing/working out with low quality baseball players for 6 months of the year.  It's real.  Come summer my son had a lot of catching up to do and he had to work his ass off through summer and fall (while playing football) to remain in the competitive mix for college recruiting.

***Update***

Looking back, lots of great advice that has truly resonated with me through my sons HS baseball experience.  Having never gone through this as a parent, I now absolutely agree that it’s best to stay out of any interaction with HS coaches if at all possible.  For those that politic, it will ultimately blow up in their faces at some point.  If your son is good enough, he will find the field on his own.  If he’s not, dedicate your time and energy to helping him get better outside of the HS baseball team.  

Quick recap: Son enters HS as a young, undersized freshman (14 years old, 5’5”, 115lbs) who’s season start was delayed from off season surgery on his throwing arm and further delayed due to on going PT.    Still made varsity, as the school didn’t have a JV team.  Didn’t get much playing time and when he did, he didn’t do much to help his cause.  Hindsight, he had no business getting playing time on any varsity team given our situation.  

The good news, he spent his summer getting playing time.  Hit well, so he worked his way up in the lineup with his travel team.  Worked his butt off in the gym and trained a ton with his coaches.  He also grew.  Heading into his Fall season, he was 5’10, 135.  Still undersized, but big enough to compete.  His HS coach welcomed him back for Fall and he actually split time behind the plate initially. When he wasn’t catching, he was filling in nicely all over the field as a utility player.   All was pretty good until he started to widen the gap in skill set with the other catcher.  Opposing catchers parents started to pad and falsify their son’s stats again.  In addition, the opposing catcher started to try to turn teammates against my son by trash talking him behind his back and attempting to bully him on the field.  I’ve known this family since T-ball and this had become par for the course over the years. I let it go for awhile, but it escalated and after about three weeks of nonsense, I against my better judgment, requested a meeting with the coach with the hopes that he would resolve the situation.  In short, the meeting was a waste of time.  The coach acknowledged that the stats were being padded as it was part of their plan to boost the profile of the other catcher.  Also he had no intention of changing things for spring.   Did commit to addressing the bullying so that was going to be enough for me.  The funny part in all of this is, we didn’t care about catching time for his HS team.  Devised a plan to get that time in during summer and fall ball with his travel teams.  Pretty clear that things were not going to improve so we decided it was time to move on and my son transferred to a new school in the middle of fall ball.  I let the coach know that he’d be changing schools and left it up to him on the remainder of fall ball.  He suggested that we just cut ties so we did.  

Still a little fall ball left, so my son reached out to his new HS coach and he agreed to find him a spot.  Much bigger school that carried multiple fall teams.  My son bounced back and forth between the JV and varsity teams and had a great time the rest of fall ball.  Fall ended with a round robin tournament at a local college against some of the best teams in our area.  My son went off in the tournament going 7 for 11 at the plate and played well defensively behind the plate and in several other spots.  Tryouts are at the end of this week so the future is bright.  I don’t know which team he’ll play on nor do I care.  His hard work and dedication have served him well as he’ll enter his sophomore season bigger (5’11”, 150lbs), stronger (mid 80’s on the mound, throwing program went well), and ready to help his team wherever his coach needs him.  

We’re doing it differently than a lot of you suggested, but in most situations I would absolutely agree that having your child work their way into starting spots is best.  If you do find yourself in a toxic situation, there are other options.  Hopefully in a couple of years I’ll be able to report great news of him having success at the HS level and continuing on to an opportunity to play at the next level too.  Thank you all again for your insight and guidance.  This has been a learning experience for me as well.  I haven’t spoken with the new coaches nor do I plan too.  I’ll find myself a seat off to the side where I can quietly enjoy the games.  Best of luck to your sons in their respective seasons.  

Is he going to be eligible to play in the spring? I was under the impression FL rules prohibit mid-year transfers from playing sports during that school year. I could be completely wrong, just something I was told a few years back.

Did he go from private to public?

@TerribleBPthrower

Yes he’s fine.  Fall baseball technically isn’t a HS sanctioned sport for us.  The rule applies to Spring baseball.  If he had played spring ball at all, he would not have had an opportunity to play this year at his new school.