TrackMan at PG events

Here's what it measures, btw:

 

TrackMan Measurements
Pitch Release	Pitch Movement	Plate Location	Batted Ball
Extension	Spin Rate	Time Of Flight	Exit Speed
Release Slot	Breaks	Location	Launch Angles
Angles	Spin Axis/Tilt	Approach Angles	Trajectory
Classification	Trajectory	Velocity	Distance
Velocity			Position at 110 feet
			Bearing
			Hang Time
			Spin Rate

*There are fewer than 27 categories listed in the table above. The final number of 27 is computed because a few of the categories above, like trajectory, have both a vertical and horizontal component.

That is really cool stuff.

 

I had a conversation with someone yesterday about a similar topic….

 

Many academies & showcase companies are now doing lots of measurements of lots of different things.  Obviously velo, foot speed,  bat speed are all important.  Not sure how throwing a med ball or long jumping translates though, for example.

 

The beautiful thing about baseball is that a slow bad body guy can square up a baseball or prevent hitters from doing so.  While that physical specimen with chiseled abs might throw like a girl (no offense to any girls).

 

Remember about 6 years ago when Nike Sparq was THE thing?  I don't know any coaches that recruited a kid based off their Sparq test scores.

 

Measuring athleticism and spin rates and exit speeds is really cool.  But I don't think you can measure baseball players like that.  Will some top players measure high?  Absolutely. Will some bad players measure high?  I bet they will.  

 

But I bet parents can't wait to see where their kid will land on the ranking list!

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

Trackman provides very valuable scouting information.  I'm trying to think of any Trackman data that would allow for a bad player to look like a good player.  What it can't do is predict who will be the best player in the future, but the data even helps in that area.

 

Based on our testing the Trackman technology, it is very obvious that the top prospects coincide with the better Trackman numbers. It doesn't measure athletic ability, it measures exactly what the ball is doing whether hitting or throwing. It also measures actual mechanical information from pitchers release, how well he repeats, distance from release to the plate etc.  It measures and charts control and command. It shows why a 88 mph fastball can be better than another pitchers 90 mph fastball.

 

Anyway, we are very excited about Trackman.  It will only make our job more thorough.  There are actually 18 now using it in the Major Leagues.  That number will probably include every MLB stadium before long. When MLB players are providing the measurables it really helps amateur scouting.  After all, the scouting scale used by MLB scouts already is based on MLB high and low measurements with 5 on the 2-8 scale being MLB average.  With Trackman there are many more measurables for comparison. For example... There is now an average MLB spin rate on every pitch.  When we see a young pitcher who might lack great velocity, but shows MLB average spin rate on breaking pitches, it adds another component to consider.  If that pitchers velocity improves, he already has the ability to spin the ball as well as an average MLB pitcher.

 

Truth is... every bit of Trackman data is important.  It can quantify what you see and it can tell you what you might not see.  There is no gimmick here, they started at the very top (MLB) not at the bottom.  Real interesting stuff!

In my opinion, PG's partnership with TrackMan is the latest in a fairly long list of reasons why their events are THE events to attend for elite-level players.

 

The fact that PG was already measuring, tracking, and reporting all kinds of things to a searchable database of players (that virtually every D1 school and every MLB team uses) already set them apart in my eyes.  Now they can accurately measure all kinds of things that can only enhance player evaluation and scouting.  Because they already have years of MLB data, they can report that a kid has MLB-caliber spin on a curve ball, or batted ball exit speed, or any number of things that used to be "measured" by scouts subjectively.  Now, as they gain data with HS age players and follow them into the pros, they'll get some really interesting data on player development at the elite level that should really improve scouts' ability to "project" kids down the road.

 

Very exciting, to me.

 

[Edit: Was writing as PGStaff was posting.  What he said.   ]

PGStaff - 

It is very cool.  And very different than the Sparq test I compared it to.  

 

I hope it helps kids & coaches alike.  Only time will tell if this is a game changer or not.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

Question for PGStaff, though:  will TrackMan data eventually be reported on PG player profile pages, much like 60 times or velo are now, with a percentile report for where a player stands relative to his class peers (and the pros)?  Also, will TrackMan be used at more fields in the future?  I'm thinking in particular about the fields at LakePointe, and whether there might be permanent TrackMan installations there.

 

Thank you for utilizing this technology.  PG is to be commended for such forward thinking.  (Oh, and thanks JP for bringing up the topic.  I'm not sure the baseball community fully appreciates yet what a huge step for scouting this should turn out to be.)

PIS,

 

It's already a very big game changer at the MLB level.  Since the partnership was announced we have been contacted by several MLB scouting departments wanting to make sure they will be able to have access to the data. 

"It shows why an 88 mph fastball can be better than another pitcher's 90 mph fastball."

 

This is one of the many things I find fascinating. So often we hear from parents and others who don't understand why a pitcher with lower velocity is more highly scouted.

 

Perhaps over time this technology will even have a noticeable, positive impact on the HSBBW Forum.

I might be splitting hair here.  But I'm not really of the opinion that having MLB teams worth $500 million requesting data is game changing. 

 

If & when the "little guys" start utilizing this data that will be game changing.  I have friends coaching that make less per year than what 2 of those units cost.  Heck, I have friends that don't have the budget to pay for the PG subscriptions.  When that guys changes his recruiting based on spin rates or extension I'll consider this game changing. 

 

Very very cool.  The top of the top will probably really benefit from it.  The majority may never flinch.  I can't remember a coach saying "that kids exit velocity is awesome!".

 

Like I said before, time will tell.  I hope it helps everybody.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

EdgarFan,

 

The plan is to make some of the data available to everyone, more than likely via the profiles. Some of the information will be available to only scouts and college coaches. We haven't decided how to handle it yet.

 

It will be permanent at the PG complex at Lakepoint.  Trackman has developed a portable model that we have tested with great results.  Our goal is to use Trackman at every event we do.  We really want the information on every player we see.  Not sure of we can accomplish that next season or not, but that is the goal.  For sure we will have Trackman at the major events.

 

I'm glad you like this, I truly think this is ground breaking stuff for amateur scouting. The more data we compile, the more meaningful that data becomes.  And not just in scouting, but even for development and training.  Young players will know what the numbers are that they need to work towards.  The players history will have a lot more information to use for projection purposes.  

 

I have friends that are old and old school scouts.  They have problems dealing with a cell phone.  Their experience and knowledge is great.  They are still great scouts that see things most people would miss.  That part of scouting will never be replaced.  That will always remain the most important ingredient in scouting IMO.  It is the ART of scouting and evaluating talent.  

 

However, I have always wanted as much meaningful information as possible.  In fact, I didn't even really care how meaningful it was, it was all worth something.  So now days we have the new way of scouting.  It does not and never will eliminate the old way, but the technology and metrics simply provide much more information that makes scouting much more thorough. Never exact, but closer to getting it right. This part is called the SCIENCE of scouting.  When you put the ART and the Science together it becomes a great combination.

 

When I talked to the founder and the head tech guy for Trackman, I was in over my head.  These guys are genius like and I am a dumb shit.  However, after a short time we were exactly on the same page. At least when it comes to baseball. These were the modern day scientific tech guys with MIT type degrees talking to an old school scout/coach about baseball and both sides understanding each other perfectly.

PGStaff

 

This is a great quote!

 

"This part is called the SCIENCE of scouting.  When you put the ART and the Science together it becomes a great combination."

 

Again, hope this technology is really useful.  I like your comments on development too!

Thanks for the reply, PGStaff.  Saying I like it would be an understatement.  I never envisioned this might be available to HS players, and completely agree with you about how ground-breaking it can be for both scouting and instruction/development.

 

BTW, I understand and completely agree with what you are saying about the value of the old-school art of scouting, and didn't mean to suggest or imply that this might in any way replace that.  I do think it enhances it, though.  

 

Really, really cool stuff.  Thanks again.

PIS,

 

Do those college coaches you know care about velocity?  The radar gun reading is used pretty much everywhere.  There is no subscription involved in knowing what every pitchers peak velocity is.  Heck, the coach doesn't even have to purchase a radar gun or  buy a subscription to get that information.

 

You sound skeptical for some reason.  Of course, I guess you have the right to be skeptical.  At the same time, I'm not going to come on here and say your bus trips don't mean any of those colleges will be interested in the kids on the bus. I guess time will tell! Truth is I think you have come up with a good idea.  I think it can be very helpful to certain kids.  Then again, are all those kids potential college players? And what about the small guys that can't afford the bus?

 

I really think what you are doing is a great opportunity for some.  Just trying to prove that anything can contain skepticism.  When I hear the words, we will see or time will tell! I have to wonder.  Of course, those words can be used with anything new.  We might somehow screw the whole thing up, but there is no WAIT and SEE involving the value of Trackman information.  It is proven to be valuable, it's only new when it comes to us using it.  The cost Involved isn't going to involve any college, small or large.  Most could never even get access to the equipment even if they could afford it. I can only say that if the information is available and they don't care about it or use it, they should be doing something else for a living. It doesn't replace anything available now, it just adds more information.

 

Perhaps, I've allowed my emotions to get the best of me with this post.  But I didn't come on here starting the subject to advertise our business partnership with Trackman.  I'm not trying to talk people into going to PG events because we have Trackman.  I've simply replied to a topic that I am very excited about that will help the scouting community.  As always, it will only help those kids who stand out. Won't mean a thing for those who don't produce meaningful numbers. Trackman has created a lot of excitement in baseball. That is with or without Perfect Game being involved!

 

If I took you comments or intentions wrong I apologize.

PGStaff - 

 

No disrespect was meant.  Did not mean to get you fired up.  PG is the top of amateur baseball.  I trust that if your organization is partnering with a new technology that it will be exciting and useful…. like GameChanger.  Love, love, love GC!

 

My skepticism is probably from my frustrations with the "old school" mentality" of many coaches that are slow to adopt technology.  I'm thinking that if coaches are so hesitant to film their players for communication purposes, how will they adopt this very high tech info?  

 

I'm of the opinion that information is king.  The more information the better.  

 

This is really good use of technology!  I hope it takes off.  I hope my bus tours take off too!  Like you said, time will tell.

 

Rich

 

 

 

 

Thanks Rich! Best of luck!

More information can't hurt. You can't fault the number one scouting network for always looking to get better at their evaluations.

Probably will hurt my 2016 some, but I have confidence the combination of data and plain old school scouting by PG, will know if a kid can play or not.

It's all good.Talent will prevail

I'm curious why you think it could hurt your 2016?

I was curious about the same thing.

 

I'm guessing, but I suspect Everyday Dad might think those measurements may reveal his son to have average or less measurements and fall behind some kids whose measurements are higher / professional caliber.  Here's the thing, though: right now, we can't tell much other than whether in that particular snapshot in time, a player compares favorably to major league averages.  It is going to take time and accumulation of data as players progress to pro levels before we can tell much about expected/projected development.  Until then, that is still going to be more or less the purview of those old school scouts PGStaff was talking about, and the ART of scouting, and rightly so.  Recruiters and scouts are always going to trust their eyes first; eventually I hope the data TrackMan provides will supplement and confirm what those scouts see, and help them to narrow and improve their focus in scouting.

 

The other thing is, as a parent, even if the end result is that TrackMan data "hurts" our sons in the sense that it reveals them to be more "average" than we might've hoped, I still think that's a good thing.  How many parents do you think you've seen come to HSBBWeb seeking advice on how best to determine "where their son fits" in the grand scheme of baseball?  This can only help to clarify that question, IMO.  And just because a player starts out as "average" (or worse) doesn't mean that's where you have to end up. Not everybody follows an "average" progression of development, and as PGStaff said, having this data can help a player focus his training to improve in areas where he may be deficient, and the ability to be re-measured in future events and track improvement can be a huge motivator.  No matter how you slice it, I can't see any negative to the use of this information.

Good read Edgar.Probably underestimate my kid's measureables. Just seems he does things so easy and natural they may not measure well.

And right as well, hopefully PG uses the data to confirm what they do see.

Good post! 

Thanks for sharing the article.  Son made top 20 for velocity.  Great stuff.

Very cool, 9and7dad!  Congrats to you and your son.

 

Sorry to kelp posting on this topic (can you tell I am excited about it?), but I thought I would share this presentation TrackMan did on how they think it can be used.  Quick read, very interesting.

When Im recruiting a pitcher, some Old farts like me still want to know if he can get guys out.
But having some measurements will prbably be interesting to study.

This is fascinating to me. Will it be used at the PG Pitcher/Catcher showcase in February?

We hope to have Trackman at that event.  We will know for sure by next week.

Actually I just found out we will be using Trackman at the indoor showcase.

PGStaff,

Will there be a specific TrackMan grade?  Similar to all the measurements that's posted.

I doubt there will be a Trackman grade, but the Trackman data could influence the overall PG grade.  Also, we should develop Trackman averages over a short period of time by age/class and we will know what MLB averages are. So if MLB average 60 yd time is 6.9-7.0, trackman MLB average exit velocity might be something in the 90+ range. Maybe the high level of high school in the 80+ range. Maybe even higher.

" I have friends coaching that make less per year than what 2 of those units cost"

 

So what approximately does a system installed on a field cost?  What approx. does a portable system cost? 

Is there a way to search a player's Trackman data by their name?  I just went through game by game and got hit speed and distance for my son but it was somewhat tedious the way I did it.  I would love to compare his data from last year to this year.  Is there another level of membership that gives more information?

Carolina Girl,

 

I believe you should check with TrackMan to see what they might offer on an individual basis.

 

DRoberts,

 

I only know they are very expensive, but not sure of the cost.  TrackMan partners with PG in order to compile statistics for MLB organizations.

Earlier in this thread EveryDay Dad said he thought some of this data might hurt his son but I think it more likely will help a kid than hurt him. 

 

Sorry to use my kid as an example but Trackman is the first tangible data I have ever seen to support my son's results when the radar gun certainly does not.  Son is RHP and just gets kids out and is committed to school that finished in top 20 this year but tops at around 85 or 86.  

 

Two weeks ago he pitched at Lakepoint drawing a small crowd as he struck out 8 in 5 2/3 against a top team touching 84 a couple of times. One of my buddies joked what are they doing watching the thumber.  I never thought to look at Trackman. 

 

Fast forward to tonight and pitched an inning at PG WS.  I'm home so had Trackman up and he threw 10 pitches.  Most fastballs were 82 with spin rate of 2200 and both sliders were 2660.  If you look them up slider spin rate is off the chart and fastball is elite college conference pitcheR spin rate. 

 

Guess my point is this is one more way for a kid to get a legitimate shot when they don't light up the radar gun and explains why some kids may just get outs. Pretty interesting stuff for sure. 

Does anyone know if they are recording the warm-up pitches, or just those in game, to get things like max velocity and spin rates?  I could see how it might be beneficial to tell pitchers to really throw at the bull in pre-inning warm-up without worrying about falling behind a hitter in a game situation...

It didn't appear that any warmup pitches showed up on the scoreboard so I can only surmise that they aren't measuring those.

Sometimes they might get warmup pitches, but usually it is just in game pitches. It does take an operator to control everything.  Not that anyone's asking, but it is very costly.

 

I do know that this TM data is very important to MLB clubs.  They pay TM a lot to have access to the data compiled at PG events. Next year, that model will include college programs, but only the biggest programs will be able to afford it.

 

I think everyone in baseball is starting to understand the importance of all this new technology.  No doubt it is helping some players that previously might have been overlooked. We have learned a lot with our partnerships with TrackMan, Zepp, and others. Years ago we used the standard numbers associated with the 5 tools.  Now we sometimes have 10 times those numbers to look at. We now understand spin rates and how certain spin rates create results.  Why the slower velocity guy might be harder to hit than the higher velocity guy.  We used to rely on eyesight to evaluate things like movement of pitches and speed of the bat.  Now there is equipment that does it more accurately.

Thanks, PG.

 

One more question that I searched for but don't see an answer...

 

Are there radar guns recording velocities at all the remote fields, so pitchers that play away from Lake Point get this info put into the database?

Yes, we have a radar gun at every game and we have a scout taking notes on every player at every game.  We do not have TrackMan available at every game.

That's what I figured.  Thanks

       
       
PG, there are some fascinating articles out there on spin rate and useful spin.  I know Dr. Alan Nathan is delving into this.  And ii believe is partnering with trackman in some way.  This information is amazing and now we as coahes (and parents) need to figure out how to teach to it.  Spin rates and spin angles is an absolute revelation for pitchers and pitching coaches.  Average rpm's spell death for the kid with average or even a little above average velocity.  But out of the norm spin rates - higher ir lower - confuse the batter because the pitch d I es not look materially different to the eye coming in but simply is not where.the batter expects it to be.  Leading to swing and miss pop ups or ground balls.  I for one am ecstatic about this cutting edge technology you are bringing.  And I am begging my organization to send us to lake point next spring.  Can you pay for your son's data?  Is there another way to get your son's data other than going to lake point?

Originally Posted by PIS:

…Measuring athleticism and spin rates and exit speeds is really cool.  But I don't think you can measure baseball players like that.  Will some top players measure high?  Absolutely. Will some bad players measure high?  I bet they will.  

 

I don’t think you’re getting the real value in measuring such things. First of all, not many BAD players show up at PG events. But even if that’s what category they’d fall into, if the measurements show something different, chances are they were categorized improperly in the 1^st place.