Transfer Observations and Questions

I can answer part of this for you. 

JUCO’s typically play around 20 games in the fall. As there are no NCAA restrictions against their fall schedule. I know that the JUCO my son had conversations with plays other JUCO’s and D1’s in the fall. These games allow other coaches the opportunity to see players. 

Some JUCO’s are HIGHLY recruited by D1’s. You can find that information by doing research. Some JUCO coaches are great lobbyists for their players as it helps their recruitment also. 

But the competition at your better JUCO’s is very stiff. Don’t let anyone fool you there. 

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Only thing to add from son’s experience is that guys who have college experience get time and others with potential get opportunities. Unless you have special stuff, you better capitalize on the opps, stay ahead in the classroom, stay healthy and stay outta trouble. So many guys get knicked up and it costs them time. A loss Agree with Fenway that parents over estimate their kid’s potential and coaches will defer to older players who have proven themselves. Make your hay in the fall or else. Coaches have to win in the spring.

College baseball is hard and from what I’ve seen staying healthy could be the hardest thing to do. My son got more opps as a freshman because others were hurt. 

Other than “not going where they’re loved” the mistakes and events I saw were ...

* Not understanding signing the NLI is just the beginning of the challenge

* Picking the dream school as a second or third tier prospect

* Not understanding their maturity level versus distance from home

* Not understanding people live and think differently in various parts of the country

* Grades/eligibility continue to count in college.

* Not understanding all thirty-five players have a lot of talent and being mentally tough enough to deal with what might be a challenge to get on the field for the first time. Staying physically and mentally prepared for opportunity.

* injury having opportunity pass you by

* change in coaching staff

Re ...

1) Not only do JuCos play fall ball some of these kids have already verballed to transfer to a D1 they turned down out of high school. 

2) Are you familiar with the term really behind the eight ball?

3) We sometimes discuss on the board high school kids having the maturity to make the right decision. Imagine an 18/19yo college freshman having the maturity to see the writing on the wall. The discussion I’ve had with people is reminding them is there will be another recruiting class next fall the kid knows nothing about from never seeing them play. Now the kid is competing against an extra year of recruits. 

Really appreciate the responses.  All forward thinking and all offering great insight into the “4-2-4” road that I never knew about.    

The learning on this site just never ends.

Hopefully in 4-years when the kid’s baseball career is over and he has a degree, I can consult you all on how to find Jr a real job??  Lol.  

The best way to get a real job after college is intern during college, establish intelligence and work ethic and build contacts. The challenge? Doing it and playing summer baseball.

It just seems to me that when recruiting classes are 14-15 deep every year, your would have to see a minimum of 5-6 drop off every year for many of the reasons mentioned above. I would think an 18 year old kid who has always been the best kid on his team staring at a fall roster of 50 such kids and living away from home for the first around lots of temptations can easily be overwhelmed, and if they don’t want to give up on college ball they immediately have to start thinking about the 4-2-4 route asap. Still nearly 2 years away from my kid setting foot on campus and I know I hear/find instances to discuss with him every day...hopefully the discussions are opening his eyes about what is to come

RJM posted:

The best way to get a real job after college is intern during college, establish intelligence and work ethic and build contacts. The challenge? Doing it and playing summer baseball.

Bingo.  Yahtzee.

fenwaysouth posted:

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Didn’t you just say in another thread that none of your boys played college ball, except as a bullpen catcher?

One of Fenway’s kids was a D1 pitcher while getting an engineering degree at a high academic. 

Just a thought -- maybe some (many?) of the transfers are caused by coaches making mistakes during the recruiting process.

2019, there is no doubt that is the case.  I think college HC's and RC's would be quick to admit they would love to be able to see more of kids before they offer and before the player commits.  Budget/personnel are certainly part of the equation.  The topic would make for a great thread of it's own.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

...

The transfer process is pretty clear, to a point.  But I have some specific questions for which I'd like answers or info.  They are:

1.  The 3 players referenced above are all at JUCOs now.  One was RS'd last year at his P5, the other 2 seem to have used a year of their eligibility.  They have yet to play a game for their JUCO, and yet they're already committed to D1s for next year.  Were they seen in the summer?  Are college coaches also going to summer college games to scout guys?  Where else would a P5 coach see and recruit a kid who was RS'd on a P5 roster his freshman year?  

2. How does the transfer process work for a player who stays for fall ball as a sophomore but is cut after the fall season, as a sophomore?   Is he now looking to find a JUCO to play at this spring?  Like he has from November to January, now, to find a place?  Or, transfer to another D1, now before January, and then begin his mandatory "sit out" year this coming spring?  He'd have to pull the trigger in next couple months right?  How the heck does a kid who is cut in early November find a place to play by January?  That sounds like a tall order?

3.  Sounds to me, seeing (and reading) the writing on the wall is more beneficial if done as a freshman, as opposed to hanging on for another year trying to right the ship, burning another year of investment and time as a sophomore.  All three of the players referenced above seem to have made the transfer transition fairly seemlessly and I hope it works out for them this time.  It  seems to me that, the transfer process gets more difficult and less common the older you get (as a sophomore, junior, etc.).  That if you're gonna pull the transfer trigger, best to do it after freshman year.  Yes?

...

 

 

 

One of my sons and his best friend took remarkably similar paths and both included multiple transfers.  Both went to two Calif. JC's, a California D2 and then across the country to an NAIA.  Both were all-conference JC players as sophomores.  Both were, at least at some point, in starting roles at their D2 but still found it necessary to transfer after that junior year.  

So, first I will answer #3... As always, every situation is different.  But a transferring senior has far more hurdles to overcome than a player with more than just one year of eligibility.  Demand becomes far less for a host of reasons even if a proven college player.  You better be willing to look where you are sure to be an impact player.

#2 - For all I hear about the necessity of hitting deadlines with applications, I rarely hear about players that are transferring being held up because of deadlines.  Now, getting classes is another matter.  It is certainly easier to do that at smaller schools.

#1 - Where are they seen...  Well, quite often, the player goes back to his original recruiting board and reaches out to the schools that were interested prior.  Otherwise, networking is huge.  The ability to do visits, showcases, etc. is mostly out the window, so you are either a desirable drop down or you better have good credible advocates.  One resource that doesn't get talked about much here - current players.  I am familiar with several players who were either recruited initially or brought in via transfer at least in part via word of mouth from current established players to their coaching staff about an available player. 

One of the biggest issues with transferring is class credits.  It is seemingly becoming worse and worse in regards to how difficult schools make it to get classes transferred... even the most basic 1A classes that should be no-brainers.

I am looking forward to someone answering your airplane emergency seat question... was always afraid to actually pull that sucker out and look myself.

FYI, here in FL, there are a ton of JUCO showcases attended by a ton of D1, D2 coaches and ML scouts in the fall.  That is why they are going into their season already committed.

As far as I am aware, only JUCO vs D2 is allowed. ALSO a player only signs 1 NLI. I may be incorrect, sorry in advance.

I am with Fenway on his point #1.  I also believe the transfer rate is so high because of two issues from both sides. Coaches don't spend enough time getting to know the player and what he is capable of doing on the field consistently and the player and parents being thrilled their son will go to big State U but with no solid committment. Some times it works out, often times it doesnt. 

Get to know the program you are fully  interested in by the roster. Some coaches like a lot of freshman, others don't, some prefer juniors who might get drafted and many have seniors on their team who are impact players. Watch for player injuries (read bios).

Chicago643 posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Didn’t you just say in another thread that none of your boys played college ball, except as a bullpen catcher?

I'm not Fenway, but his older son pitched, successfully, at an Ivy, and completed an engineering degree in 4 years.  Many missions accomplished!  (too many commas...sorry)

There were several players on son's college team that transferred (in/out).  All different situations, but I thought I would share since they are all so different:

One player "saw the writing on the wall" (or was told) after fall ball that he would get minimal time at MIF his freshman season.  He transferred out for his spring freshman semester to a Florida Juco and did well on the team.   So, he found a place to land very quickly that freshman fall for a spring roster spot.  Not sure where he has landed yet for his junior year of college 2 years later.

Another top HS pitcher signed his NLI at a power 5 conference school.   He saw the "writing on the wall" with limited playing time his freshman year and transfered to son's mid-major D1 college.  Sat out sophomore year at his new school per NCAA rules.  Pitched lights out his junior year and drafted 3rd round this past June. 

Another player tried to walk on to his dream D1 west coast school but did not make the team.  After attending  community college, transfered to son's school and made the team as a walk-on his sophomore year.  However, because of the early recruiting time-line, the roster was full (plus no one quit or hurt, etc.)  so he didn't make the team his junior year.  His playing days are done; however, after getting his masters in 2018, his future job may be with a MLB team.  Several interviews are already lined up for the winter meetings, I understand.

Another player went D1 (one year)  then Juco (one year) then son's school for 2 years.  Three  different schools is tough, and he had a few classes he still needed to graduate so he is currently in his 9th semester. 

Our state's POY several years ago finished his degree at his out of state school in 2 1/2 years with moderate playing time (84 ABs in 2 years).   Shows up in the spring to son's school for a masters program with 2 years of eligibility left and since he had already graduated, can play right away.  Voila!  There is a spot for him!  Plays wonderfully for his 3rd season (231 ABs, .368 avg with 11 HRs) and gets drafted that year with a college degree AND one year of graduate school in hand.  (He is brilliant).

So, like in these examples, you may can find a place to land after fall freshman year to play at a Juco.  Florida has quite a few, and there are a few closer by in NC (Pitt and Louisburg).  

I think some D1 schools will have committed players go to a Juco first for a year to get their "feet wet" with playing time.  It is a prearranged agreement ahead of time.  I know of  two instances where this probably happened.

JuCos are normally 2 year programs, so transferring in after sophomore year may be impossible.....what classes would the player take?  Plus, you have 5 years to get in 4 years of playing.....time is ticking.....and although you could get drafted out of the Juco, how many D1 coaches want a player with only one year of eligibility left?  

I don't think son's college was unique.....there are many comings and goings to rosters.

keewart posted:

There were several players on son's college team that transferred (in/out).  All different situations, but I thought I would share since they are all so different:

One player "saw the writing on the wall" (or was told) after fall ball that he would get minimal time at MIF his freshman season.  He transferred out for his spring freshman semester to a Florida Juco and did well on the team.   So, he found a place to land very quickly that freshman fall for a spring roster spot.  Not sure where he has landed yet for his junior year of college 2 years later.

Another top HS pitcher signed his NLI at a power 5 conference school.   He saw the "writing on the wall" with limited playing time his freshman year and transfered to son's mid-major D1 college.  Sat out sophomore year at his new school per NCAA rules.  Pitched lights out his junior year and drafted 3rd round this past June. 

Another player tried to walk on to his dream D1 west coast school but did not make the team.  After attending  community college, transfered to son's school and made the team as a walk-on his sophomore year.  However, because of the early recruiting time-line, the roster was full (plus no one quit or hurt, etc.)  so he didn't make the team his junior year.  His playing days are done; however, after getting his masters in 2018, his future job may be with a MLB team.  Several interviews are already lined up for the winter meetings, I understand.

Another player went D1 (one year)  then Juco (one year) then son's school for 2 years.  Three  different schools is tough, and he had a few classes he still needed to graduate so he is currently in his 9th semester. 

Our state's POY several years ago finished his degree at his out of state school in 2 1/2 years with moderate playing time (84 ABs in 2 years).   Shows up in the spring to son's school for a masters program with 2 years of eligibility left and since he had already graduated, can play right away.  Voila!  There is a spot for him!  Plays wonderfully for his 3rd season (231 ABs, .368 avg with 11 HRs) and gets drafted that year with a college degree AND one year of graduate school in hand.  (He is brilliant).

So, like in these examples, you may can find a place to land after fall freshman year to play at a Juco.  Florida has quite a few, and there are a few closer by in NC (Pitt and Louisburg).  

I think some D1 schools will have committed players go to a Juco first for a year to get their "feet wet" with playing time.  It is a prearranged agreement ahead of time.  I know of  two instances where this probably happened.

JuCos are normally 2 year programs, so transferring in after sophomore year may be impossible.....what classes would the player take?  Plus, you have 5 years to get in 4 years of playing.....time is ticking.....and although you could get drafted out of the Juco, how many D1 coaches want a player with only one year of eligibility left?  

I don't think son's college was unique.....there are many comings and goings to rosters.

 

 

Obviously, all the player can do is take it one day at a time, and deal with things as they come.  As each of your examples illustrates.  I appreciate all the posts here.  Have learned a lot in one day.  Thanks for all the info.  In the back pocket it goes, hopefully never needing it!

Not exactly on subject but hopefully helpful: Be prepared to dig into your son's existing classes at school number 1, to make sure the credits will be accepted at school number 2.  I played helicopter academic dad with school number 2 and after my son was there for 3-4 months, we got 6 credits added by quoting from school's handbook.  Just because some credits are initially denied, stay on it if you have a solid basis for credits transferring.  

A couple of thoughts about this.....

First of all most (overwhelming majority) of 18 yr old ballplayers are not ready (mentally or physically) to contribute to a competitive D1 or D2 program.  Yet that is where they all want to go.  Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability. After a few months at Big State U (credit to TPM) reality sets in for the player - they aren't good enough to play there. Then they have a value decision to make. If baseball is a high priority (and they are smart) they transfer soon as they can.  Bouncing down to a JUCO and playing for 2 years instead of sitting is better for their development as a player, and also better for their state of mind. Also agree with whoever mentioned that the competition level at JUCO is much better than most think. This happens all the time.

Second thing is the almighty dollar.  For the first time ever many Power 5 baseball programs now make money.  I know that all in the SEC do - so I will use those as an example.  Any SEC baseball HC is a CEO more than he is a baseball coach.  He has a profit center to run and he is getting paid 500K a year (or more) to run it. Do you think that they care if a player or 2 are collateral damage in the course of running their business? They do not. This is another harsh reality that players at these (and other) programs have to accept - or move on.  The impersonal business aspect of college baseball also leads to a lot of transfers. 

Chicago643 posted:

 

Didn’t you just say in another thread that none of your boys played college ball, except as a bullpen catcher?

Chicago643 - Reread the last sentence of my (Trade Offs : Baseball vs Academics) post where I do mention 1st son.   The thread was partially about recruits that passed up D3 baseball opps to attend D1s as non-recruited regular students.   That described my 2nd and 3rd sons so I detailed their decisions to focus on their majors.

adbono posted:

Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.

Although I agree with your post, I think a big reason for the above quote is that the coaches recruiting the kids TELL them that they can compete there!!

Case in point: I was travelling last week and I got a text from my son that said "I just had a 27 minute call with Coach X" [background: 27 minutes on the phone for my son is a month's worth, maybe two, of phone conversations]. I texted back: "what did you talk about?" He responded: "He was telling me I could be a two-way player for them." Can he really? Beats me, but I don't really blame kids (and parents) too much for believing what experts (college coaches) tell them! I guess the lesson, as always, is caveat emptor!

adbono posted:

First of all most (overwhelming majority) of 18 yr old ballplayers are not ready (mentally or physically) to contribute to a competitive D1 or D2 program.  Yet that is where they all want to go.  Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.  

Your comment made me curious about underclassmen in college ball. Seems like you see lots of freshmen studs during the CWS. The D1 numbers below were the only stats I could easily get my hands on. This leaves out a lot of kids who contributed, but I think the numbers still tell us something.

Top 251 in AVG:

Top 200 in ERA:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.

Although I agree with your post, I think a big reason for the above quote is that the coaches recruiting the kids TELL them that they can compete there!!

Case in point: I was travelling last week and I got a text from my son that said "I just had a 27 minute call with Coach X" [background: 27 minutes on the phone for my son is a month's worth, maybe two, of phone conversations]. I texted back: "what did you talk about?" He responded: "He was telling me I could be a two-way player for them." Can he really? Beats me, but I don't really blame kids (and parents) too much for believing what experts (college coaches) tell them! I guess the lesson, as always, is caveat emptor!

Sure the coaches tell them they can compete there.  That's called recruiting.  

You don't blame the parents and the kids for believing everything they are told during the recruiting process? Seriously ?? You have to be kidding me!  Kids are told all kinds of things that are marginally true - or not true at all.  It is the parents (and the players) job to sort through all that and figure out who is shooting the most straight and who isn't. 

Your reference to being a 2 way player offers a good learning opportunity. Lots of coaches will say that they will give a kid a chance to be a 2 way guy.  Guess what?  Hardly any kids are good enough at both to be a 2 way guy - especially at a 4 year program.  The coach knows that. But he isn't going to say that during the recruiting process if he really wants a kid.  He wants to get him on his campus and then guess what? - either the kid figures out on his own that  he needs to focus on the strongest aspect of his game (either pitching or playing a position - whichever it is) OR he is told he has to do that. As a parent YOU should know that.  All you have to do is study the roster at any school to figure that out.  Just because a travel ball coach has been blowing smoke up your butt for the past 6 years about how good little Johnny is doesn't make it true. Could be that he was doing that so you would keep paying his fees.  YOU (the parent) should be able to figure that out too.  I have a real problem with you trying to take the parents off the hook.  I'm not saying its easy to sort through all the BS.  But I am saying its the parents & the players job to try.

I'm not so sure it's overestimating their son's abilities as it is underestimating the kids they're going to be competing against for playing time.  My son was fortunate....went in as a freshman, started his season as the weekday starter and eventually moved to the bullpen.   The other freshmen didn't get nearly as much PT as I think they expected...or more importantly that their parents expected.  None of them were pitchers....so I could kind of objectively watch them (as freshmen) and compare them to the older guys that were already there.  The kids who deserved to be playing were playing...it showed in the field and at the plate.   It's tough when your kid is all state his senior year....then sits the bench in his freshman year of college....I get it, but it's pretty clear that the expectations are not always realistic...or maybe they just didn't have any idea how good D1 players are...even on a team that hangs right around the .500 mark.   A couple of the parents mentioned transferring half way thru the year...though my son said the players never did.  One eventually left (partly PT...partly injuries)....the others are all still there...a couple got quite a bit of PT last year as sophomores and they all will likely be on the field this coming Spring.  They could all have packed up and left after their freshman year...but other than 1, they all stuck it out and from what I can see are all enjoying being part of the program.  I guess I look at it this way....you typically don't expect your HS freshman to jump onto the varsity team and start over the juniors and seniors....but when it comes to college, it seems like everyone thinks their HS senior  is ready to take a spot from the college juniors and seniors when he shows up on campus.  It just doesn't usually work out that way

MidAtlanticDad posted:

adbono posted:

First of all most (overwhelming majority) of 18 yr old ballplayers are not ready (mentally or physically) to contribute to a competitive D1 or D2 program.  Yet that is where they all want to go.  Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.  

Your comment made me curious about underclassmen in college ball. Seems like you see lots of freshmen studs during the CWS. The D1 numbers below were the only stats I could easily get my hands on. This leaves out a lot of kids who contributed, but I think the numbers still tell us something.

Top 251 in AVG:

Fr.	17	7%
So.	46	18%
Jr.	98	39%
Sr.	90	36%

Top 200 in ERA:

Fr.	20	10%
So.	52	26%
Jr.	74	37%
Sr.	54	27%

What those numbers tell me is that 93% of the top 251 D1 hitters (for average) were not 18 year old freshmen.  And 90% of the top D1 pitchers (in ERA) were not 18 year old freshmen either.  So I think these numbers validate my comment that the overwhelming majority of 18 year olds are not ready for D1.  If you are nitpicking my semantics - you may have a valid point. I should have said "not ready to make a significant contribution." Its certainly possible for a freshman to contribute without being significant. The freshmen studs that you see in the CWS are part of the 7% and the 10% from the charts you provided. Remember that I'm speaking in general about the majority of college baseball players.  I'm not talking about the top 10%. I'm talking about the rest.

adbono posted:

What those numbers tell me is that 93% of the top 251 D1 hitters (for average) were not 18 year old freshmen.  And 90% of the top D1 pitchers (in ERA) were not 18 year old freshmen either.  So I think these numbers validate my comment that the overwhelming majority of 18 year olds are not ready for D1.  If you are nitpicking my semantics - you may have a valid point. I should have said "not ready to make a significant contribution." Its certainly possible for a freshman to contribute without being significant. The freshmen studs that you see in the CWS are part of the 7% and the 10% from the charts you provided. Remember that I'm speaking in general about the majority of college baseball players.  I'm not talking about the top 10%. I'm talking about the rest.

I posted the numbers to support your assertion.

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.

Although I agree with your post, I think a big reason for the above quote is that the coaches recruiting the kids TELL them that they can compete there!!

Case in point: I was travelling last week and I got a text from my son that said "I just had a 27 minute call with Coach X" [background: 27 minutes on the phone for my son is a month's worth, maybe two, of phone conversations]. I texted back: "what did you talk about?" He responded: "He was telling me I could be a two-way player for them." Can he really? Beats me, but I don't really blame kids (and parents) too much for believing what experts (college coaches) tell them! I guess the lesson, as always, is caveat emptor!

Understood that you will hear things like this from coaches in the recruiting process,  but I think what parents need to keep in mind is that the coaches will say anything to get you there, once you're there, most often, the kid finds out very quickly that the coach isn't their friend, and they have to earn everything they get by competing.   

Everything is a competition.  my current freshman (2017) finished up his first fall ball a month ago.  Even as a former collegiate athlete I was taken aback by how much they competed during fall ball.    They posted stats every week for pitchers and hitters, they played live intra squad games 3-4 times a week.  He had almost 100 live at bats during the fall.    They compete daily in the weight room, in drills on the field, competing at every turn.    It would be good for parents to keep their kid grounded with respect to all the "pretty talk".    you are going to have to earn your spot, and even then the upper classmen will be given benefit of the doubt.  It's tough for a freshman to play.  no matter what the coach says during the recruiting process. 

 It's a harsh reality, and one that is difficult to comprehend for most of these kids as they've been so much better than everyone else since T Ball.  Even more so for a lot of the parents.    (please don't take this as directed at you 2019 dad- more of a comment directed towards the situation in general)

pabaseballdad posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.

Although I agree with your post, I think a big reason for the above quote is that the coaches recruiting the kids TELL them that they can compete there!!

Case in point: I was travelling last week and I got a text from my son that said "I just had a 27 minute call with Coach X" [background: 27 minutes on the phone for my son is a month's worth, maybe two, of phone conversations]. I texted back: "what did you talk about?" He responded: "He was telling me I could be a two-way player for them." Can he really? Beats me, but I don't really blame kids (and parents) too much for believing what experts (college coaches) tell them! I guess the lesson, as always, is caveat emptor!

Understood that you will hear things like this from coaches in the recruiting process,  but I think what parents need to keep in mind is that the coaches will say anything to get you there, once you're there, most often, the kid finds out very quickly that the coach isn't their friend, and they have to earn everything they get by competing.   

Everything is a competition.  my current freshman (2017) finished up his first fall ball a month ago.  Even as a former collegiate athlete I was taken aback by how much they competed during fall ball.    They posted stats every week for pitchers and hitters, they played live intra squad games 3-4 times a week.  He had almost 100 live at bats during the fall.    They compete daily in the weight room, in drills on the field, competing at every turn.    It would be good for parents to keep their kid grounded with respect to all the "pretty talk".    you are going to have to earn your spot, and even then the upper classmen will be given benefit of the doubt.  It's tough for a freshman to play.  no matter what the coach says during the recruiting process. 

 It's a harsh reality, and one that is difficult to comprehend for most of these kids as they've been so much better than everyone else since T Ball.  Even more so for a lot of the parents.    (please don't take this as directed at you 2019 dad- more of a comment directed towards the situation in general)

 

That was very well said and very accurate!

MidAtlanticDad posted:

adbono posted:

What those numbers tell me is that 93% of the top 251 D1 hitters (for average) were not 18 year old freshmen.  And 90% of the top D1 pitchers (in ERA) were not 18 year old freshmen either.  So I think these numbers validate my comment that the overwhelming majority of 18 year olds are not ready for D1.  If you are nitpicking my semantics - you may have a valid point. I should have said "not ready to make a significant contribution." Its certainly possible for a freshman to contribute without being significant. The freshmen studs that you see in the CWS are part of the 7% and the 10% from the charts you provided. Remember that I'm speaking in general about the majority of college baseball players.  I'm not talking about the top 10%. I'm talking about the rest.

I posted the numbers to support your assertion.

Wasn't sure.  My bad !

Too often in recruiting coaches say “should and could” while the players and parents hear “can and will.”

adbono posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

adbono posted:

First of all most (overwhelming majority) of 18 yr old ballplayers are not ready (mentally or physically) to contribute to a competitive D1 or D2 program.  Yet that is where they all want to go.  Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.  

Your comment made me curious about underclassmen in college ball. Seems like you see lots of freshmen studs during the CWS. The D1 numbers below were the only stats I could easily get my hands on. This leaves out a lot of kids who contributed, but I think the numbers still tell us something.

Top 251 in AVG:

Fr.	17	7%
So.	46	18%
Jr.	98	39%
Sr.	90	36%

Top 200 in ERA:

Fr.	20	10%
So.	52	26%
Jr.	74	37%
Sr.	54	27%

What those numbers tell me is that 93% of the top 251 D1 hitters (for average) were not 18 year old freshmen.  And 90% of the top D1 pitchers (in ERA) were not 18 year old freshmen either.  So I think these numbers validate my comment that the overwhelming majority of 18 year olds are not ready for D1.  If you are nitpicking my semantics - you may have a valid point. I should have said "not ready to make a significant contribution." Its certainly possible for a freshman to contribute without being significant. The freshmen studs that you see in the CWS are part of the 7% and the 10% from the charts you provided. Remember that I'm speaking in general about the majority of college baseball players.  I'm not talking about the top 10%. I'm talking about the rest.

And who knows how many of those freshmen are Redshirt freshmen that have had a whole year to mature and get bigger, faster stronger, better.  

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

Agree (as previously mentioned) that most players underestimate the competition and most parents overestimate their son's level of ability.

Although I agree with your post, I think a big reason for the above quote is that the coaches recruiting the kids TELL them that they can compete there!!

Case in point: I was travelling last week and I got a text from my son that said "I just had a 27 minute call with Coach X" [background: 27 minutes on the phone for my son is a month's worth, maybe two, of phone conversations]. I texted back: "what did you talk about?" He responded: "He was telling me I could be a two-way player for them." Can he really? Beats me, but I don't really blame kids (and parents) too much for believing what experts (college coaches) tell them! I guess the lesson, as always, is caveat emptor!

Sure the coaches tell them they can compete there.  That's called recruiting.  

You don't blame the parents and the kids for believing everything they are told during the recruiting process? Seriously ?? You have to be kidding me!  Kids are told all kinds of things that are marginally true - or not true at all.  It is the parents (and the players) job to sort through all that and figure out who is shooting the most straight and who isn't. 

Your reference to being a 2 way player offers a good learning opportunity. Lots of coaches will say that they will give a kid a chance to be a 2 way guy.  Guess what?  Hardly any kids are good enough at both to be a 2 way guy - especially at a 4 year program.  The coach knows that. But he isn't going to say that during the recruiting process if he really wants a kid.  He wants to get him on his campus and then guess what? - either the kid figures out on his own that  he needs to focus on the strongest aspect of his game (either pitching or playing a position - whichever it is) OR he is told he has to do that. As a parent YOU should know that.  All you have to do is study the roster at any school to figure that out.  Just because a travel ball coach has been blowing smoke up your butt for the past 6 years about how good little Johnny is doesn't make it true. Could be that he was doing that so you would keep paying his fees.  YOU (the parent) should be able to figure that out too.  I have a real problem with you trying to take the parents off the hook.  I'm not saying its easy to sort through all the BS.  But I am saying its the parents & the players job to try.

Sure, it's their job to try. They have no experience (usually) in baseball recruiting or college baseball in general. The coaches have (of course) tons of experience. It seems to me that you -- and many others -- let the coaches off the hook. When lots of kids have to transfer from a program, how is that not the coaches fault? Why is it OK that "Kids are told all kinds of things that are marginally true -- or not true at all"?

Replace "Marketing" with "Recruiting" in the below and it would fit pretty well.

adbono posted:  

You don't blame the parents and the kids for believing everything they are told during the recruiting process? Seriously ?? You have to be kidding me!  Kids are told all kinds of things that are marginally true - or not true at all.  It is the parents (and the players) job to sort through all that and figure out who is shooting the most straight and who isn't. 

Your reference to being a 2 way player offers a good learning opportunity. Lots of coaches will say that they will give a kid a chance to be a 2 way guy.  Guess what?  Hardly any kids are good enough at both to be a 2 way guy - especially at a 4 year program.  The coach knows that. But he isn't going to say that during the recruiting process if he really wants a kid.  He wants to get him on his campus and then guess what? - either the kid figures out on his own that  he needs to focus on the strongest aspect of his game (either pitching or playing a position - whichever it is) OR he is told he has to do that. As a parent YOU should know that.  All you have to do is study the roster at any school to figure that out.  Just because a travel ball coach has been blowing smoke up your butt for the past 6 years about how good little Johnny is doesn't make it true. Could be that he was doing that so you would keep paying his fees.  YOU (the parent) should be able to figure that out too.  I have a real problem with you trying to take the parents off the hook.  I'm not saying its easy to sort through all the BS.  But I am saying its the parents & the players job to try.

Two other points: yes, I realize how rare a two-way player is. That's why I said "Could he really?" Second, there is no travel ball coach who has been blowing smoke up my butt -- sure, this is an internet message board and gratuitous insults were practically invented for internet message boards, but in this case, and in this thread, we're talking about college coaches doing the smoke blowing.

#1 Assistant,

I'll go back to your original post and try to answer, at least from my perspective.

My oldest transferred from a D1 at the beginning of Spring 2017.  Never in our wildest dreams did we envision a transfer when he committed to his D1 initially.  He committed as a SS, but played immediately as a weekend starting pitcher.

There's a zillion reasons why kids transfer.  His issue wasn't playing time.  Lots of off the field issues and immaturity.  Great school.  Loved the coaching staff.  Academics were awesome.  And my then 18 year old behaved like he was 12.  Who knew it would work out that way?

NCAA rules govern how transfers work...Rick at Informed Athlete was crucial for my son to navigate the steps.  Getting permission to speak to other schools from his D1 was one of many steps.

My son, working with my wife and I, developed an academically and athletically vetted list of schools just like we did when he was in high school.   All were 4 year colleges.  None of the schools had seen him play in college or in Summer leagues.  A few had been on his initial list in high school and remembered him.  He reached out to coaches with his college and Summer stats, current video, etc., and he reached out to Admission reps with his college transcript.   His list was only about a dozen colleges.  Schools had to fit with his desired major that was already in process, realistic opportunity to immediately compete for playing time, weather, facilities, etc.  Many of the same things that factored into his original decision making plus some things (e.g., short time to complete his degree) that were different as a transfer student.

My guy had two remaining years of eligibility.  That probably helped more than having only one year left.  That said, it really was about mutual fit.  If the college has a need and the transfer player can fill that need, then even one year of remaining eligibility could work.  Of course the converse is four years of remaining eligibility doesn't mean much if the school doesn't want you or you get on campus and don't perform. 

He transferred in to the school in January and immediately was a weekend starter.  A couple other guys transferred in the prior Fall and didn't see the field.  A kid needs to show up and perform in the classroom and compete on the ball field, just like the first time around.

Who is blowing the smoke isn't really the point.  The point is that it is the parent's job to be realistic about their kid's abilities - and realistic about what is a good opportunity and what isn't.  Too many parents are not realistic - that is my point.  And I'm not letting the coaches off the hook either.  Some of them are downright slimy.  So not sure where you are getting that idea.  Also not sure why you refer to "gratuitous insults", as there haven't been any of those either. Sounds like you took what I said personally when my intent was to describe a  common generic situation that fuels unrealistic expectations.  

Thanks Branson.  Your wealth of knowledge on so many facets of this journey, and the honest and generous way you share said knowledge is appreciated.  

Obviously, it is my son's hope that he never has to consider such a move in his college career as he is very excited about meeting head on the challenges that await him at his college of choice.  I can't imagine anyone arrives at their committed school believing that their experience will not be a minimum 3 or 4 years.  But my search the other day of a handful of older guys son played with years ago, reveals that transferring is a fact of college baseball life.  For a multitude of reasons.

Glad to have gleaned so much in just two days.    As always, this site is awesome.  Much thanks.  

adbono posted:

Who is blowing the smoke isn't really the point.  The point is that it is the parent's job to be realistic about their kid's abilities - and realistic about what is a good opportunity and what isn't.  Too many parents are not realistic - that is my point.  And I'm not letting the coaches off the hook either.  Some of them are downright slimy.  So not sure where you are getting that idea.  Also not sure why you refer to "gratuitous insults", as there haven't been any of those either. Sounds like you took what I said personally when my intent was to describe a  common generic situation that fuels unrealistic expectations.  

I think that adbono makes some very good points.

The process and its results belong to both the player and his parents as well as the coaches.

IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception. 

Before any decision is made, take advice from above, know and understand the transfer rules. Its not as simple as it seems. 

Don’t underestimate the number of players that once they get to college decide they are done playing baseball even at top 50 schools.

 It’s been said all the time.  Lots of work and some of their friends are having a lot of fun doing college age things.  Takes lots more than physical ability.