Venting...When is it a must swing...tough start to a season!

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

I guess I'd look at it this way......you know what ended up happening....he got walked and loaded the bases.  Exactly what a 10 hole hitter is supposed to do.  He's there to get on base to allow the top of the order guys to do the damage.  If he's hitting in the 4 hole....sure, go ahead and swing for the fence and at worst get a SAC fly.  In this case, if I'm the coach, I'm thrilled he got on base....and we've got bases loaded and 1 out.  What happened next?   Did the leadoff batter hit into a DP?  If so, the coach is mad at him...and maybe it transferred to your son.    Back to back strikeouts?   Coach is mad...but again, not at your son.  

As far as what happened next.  The lead runner scored on a past ball.  The 1 and 2 hitters both weakly grounded out.  They are fast runners who have had a few seeing eye singles, but cannot really hit.  

I like your comment a lot and that it is based on the coaches perspective.  What a 10 hitter is supposed to do.  My son's goal is to show the coach he is not a 10 hitter.  Has never been and does not belong as one. 

I have never seen a scenario where a 10 hitter moves up in the lineup and gets pulled less because he drew a walk.  Have you? 

 

My answer to you on this is "Yes".  Why? Because it could be the start of a kid that has a plan.  He goes to the plate looking to hit strikes and not chase balls out of the strike zone.  Seeking out pitches that he can handle by having a good approach.  A good approach in each at bat will help him to stretch together good AB's, and good AB's lead to more AB's.

This is a must swing only in college in a close game or in the playoffs.  In HS at the varsity level it's 50/50.  At the JV level it doesn't even matter, but for him personally if he's good at making sac flies why didn't he take the opportunity to swing on a borderline high pitch?  If I was the coach I'd want him to swing.  Remember we don't want to give away the plan so "it's gotta be your pitch" could've meant for him to swing but don't let the pitcher get the idea to throw something out of the zone

It's never wrong to play the game the right way.  Taking a borderline 3-1 pitch that is not in the batter's wheelhouse is playing the right way.  Anything else risks upsetting the baseball gods and karma and all that stuff.

What states allow the EH?  I must have missed this at some point.  I've never seen a HS baseball team bat 10.  

CoachB25 posted:

What states allow the EH?  I must have missed this at some point.  I've never seen a HS baseball team bat 10.  

Unless there’s a state JV exception NFHS rules allows for nine players in the lineup plus a DH.

Well actually yes. Good hitters hit good pitches to hit. They don't get themselves out swinging at bad pitches. Why is it so important to move up in the line up? Are you in the line up? If so then do your job where you are. I am sure everyone on the bench would be glad to trade places with you. 

Trying to impress the coach by not walking? Walking IS hitting. It means you are getting on base. It means your producing quality at bats. It means you are not swinging at pitches out of the zone. It means your probably getting pitches for the next guy to hit. And when your not swinging at pitches out of the zone it means you will get pitches in the zone to hit. 

I have a guy that has committed to play in College next year. He started the season in the 2 hole. He has hit in the 1 - 2 - 5 and 6 hole this year so far. He will hit in the 9 hole Friday. Has he said anything? Ummm NO. He's in the line up and has a job to do. Get on base. I would prefer a Bomb on 9 pitches. But a walk will suffice as well. Bases loaded 3-1 pitch I don't care what who the hitter is if its borderline why would you swing? You don't strike out with 2 strikes on you. But you can pop up on any count. 

Coach_May posted:

Walking IS hitting. It means you are getting on base. It means your producing quality at bats. It means you are not swinging at pitches out of the zone. It means your probably getting pitches for the next guy to hit. And when your not swinging at pitches out of the zone it means you will get pitches in the zone to hit. 

This is my argument with my husband. Our 2018 doesn't strike out very often, he does frequently walk (and get hit by pitch a lot, we don't think he's popular with other teams), and he occasionally gets a good solid base hit. Bats somewhere between third and fifth in the lineup usually. My argument is it's his job to get on base somehow, or if the coach says, to drive in a run. Husband says he has to hit.

Frustrating debate.

He is hitting. No debate, you are right. 

Coach_May posted:

He is hitting. No debate, you are right. 

Can I give you my husband's cell phone number?? 

Lol. Ask your husband if he would rather your son be sitting the bench.

OP already admitted that what his son did is what's best for the team.  OP and his son are not happy bec what is best for the team is not what made his son shine.  To me, the question isn't what he should do to correct this "injustice".  The question to me is why the OP puts a higher importance in his son "shining" and moving up the lineup over and above doing what's best for the team.  Why not encourage his son and tell him he did what he is supposed to do and be very happy with that, and be happy with his role in the team whether it be batting in the 10th position or being on the bench.  If his son works hard at practice and has the right attitude, it will pay off sooner or later.  And if didn't pay off, then it's still an amazing life lesson that would carry on to whatever he does in life.

I can imagine that this attitude of what's best for me personally regardless of whether if it's what's best for the team (or the company I work for or the country I live in) is what's leading to all these problem we see in society. 

RJM posted:

I’m going to put on the black hat. None of the following matches the rest of the thread ...

My son is a sophomore on JV.  It is not a great team.  He also plays travel and has since he was young.  Probably not a D1 player unless adds some size. He is an excellent student, wants to be a Dr. and has a decent shot to play D3 and keep playing baseball as long as possible.  Which he would love to do. 

He is just under 5’10, but is solid and strong.  Runs a 7.3 or so 60 yard dash . Exit velo low 80 ‘s and throws low 80’s. Good stats for a young sophomore, but need to improve.  

He would be a D1 prospect if he grows does not mix with decent shot to play D3. Where he bats in the lineup as a soph on JV doesn’t match either. Unless he’s playing at a school like Avon Farms a college prospect isn’t batting at the bottom of the lineup on JV and getting pulled from the game.

Are you upset your son isn’t on the path to meet your dreams of him playing college ball? His metrics aren’t that great.

0-7 isn’t a big deal. It’s statistics in extremely small numbers in horrible playing weather. As for taking on 3-1 unless the pitch is dead red in his zone it’s a take for a bottom of the lineup hitter.  As the coach instructed, unless it’s your pitch.

Relax and let it be his experience. Don’t create an environment where he avoids you after the game.

This part of the board always fascinates me. The blind faith in all coaches when the reality is they are just like the employees of any business.  Some are rockstars, most are average, some are terrible.   

So, you don't believe it is possible that a new coach can misdiagnose a potential college player over the first 5 games of a season?  That all high school coaches at the JV level know what they are doing?  

We have a Sophomore kid in town named Matt.  He has attributes off the chart.  7.0 flat 60 or better, 6'2. Big, Strong.  Exit over 85.  I have watched him play for years.  It is the town running joke that every new coach drools over him.  His older brother was very good. Bygame 3 he is out of lineup.  Messes up every other play in the field, if the pitch is over 75 he won't catch up.

In the beginning of this season he had a bomb off a slow pitcher and two seeing eye singles off average to poor pitching.  The freshman coach recognized what he was right away, as did the town legion coaches.  Not yet for the JV coach.  

We have another player, a 6'2 lefty pitchers.  Can throw in the low 80's, with a great breaker.  Excellent athlete.  He is still ramping up throwing due to winter.  Coach did not invite him to pitchers and catchers.  Did not really start him to begin the season, because he did not realize what he had.  Threw the last game and coach was like I did not realize.  

Feel free to leave your hat on, but your factually based statement "unless he’s playing at a school like Avon Farms a college prospect isn’t batting at the bottom of the lineup on JV and getting pulled from the game" is utter nonsense.

Of course that is not the norm, but of course it also happens.  Kids have slumps, coaches try and manage large rosters it can take time.  

RJM posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

baseballhs posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

I guess I'd look at it this way......you know what ended up happening....he got walked and loaded the bases.  Exactly what a 10 hole hitter is supposed to do.  He's there to get on base to allow the top of the order guys to do the damage.  If he's hitting in the 4 hole....sure, go ahead and swing for the fence and at worst get a SAC fly.  In this case, if I'm the coach, I'm thrilled he got on base....and we've got bases loaded and 1 out.  What happened next?   Did the leadoff batter hit into a DP?  If so, the coach is mad at him...and maybe it transferred to your son.    Back to back strikeouts?   Coach is mad...but again, not at your son.  

As far as what happened next.  The lead runner scored on a past ball.  The 1 and 2 hitters both weakly grounded out.  They are fast runners who have had a few seeing eye singles, but cannot really hit.  

I like your comment a lot and that it is based on the coaches perspective.  What a 10 hitter is supposed to do.  My son's goal is to show the coach he is not a 10 hitter.  Has never been and does not belong as one. 

I have never seen a scenario where a 10 hitter moves up in the lineup and gets pulled less because he drew a walk.  Have you? 

 

I would guess this has more to do with being 0-7 than it does one walk.

Do you believe  a player can be judged in 7 at bats?  That being 0-7 with multiple hard hit line drives where outfielders have to move back on the ball and 5 RBI in those at bats is indicative of a poor hitter.  

I at no time have judged the coach or said he should have done X or Y.  I think it is a tough spot to manage 19 kids you have never seen before and can barely practice outside due to weather.  

My premise was entirely about how my son could maximize his chances to show what he can do in a tough situation for him and the coach.  

Coaches don’t judge players they selected for the team in seven at bats unless they look completely overwhelmed at the plate. They’re judging their development daily in practice and games over the course of the season.

My son was the heir to shortstop starting in 8th grade. Soph year he started the season 1-9. The coach hadn’t made up his mind he wasn’t a player. He sent him down to JV for one non conference game and told him to relax. The next two varsity games he went 4-6 with four rbi’s. He was now 5-15 (.333).

The funny thing is he made better contact going 1-9. But the hits started him on the path to an all conference season. The coach barely talked to him all season other than baseball instruction. My son never knew where he stood from game to game. At the end of the season the coach told my son he expected him to own the league the following year. 

By your parameters starting 1-9 and getting sent down for a game would have been the end of the world. Sometimes you just have to believe and keep plugging. 

Again the generalizing about "coaches". Yes, most coaches or good coaches don't make their mind up fast.  But, some can and some do.  They are not all the same.  They are not all perfect.  They are also not all bad.

And, no, going 1-9 is not terrible.  It is only sucks if it causes a coach to make a premature judgement about a player that won't finish that way.   

The point of this post was to point out that sometimes situations happen which cause players to do the less than ideal or risk not getting playing time.  And, that is EVERY PLAYERS GOAL.  To play.  

If your kid has history of hitting, I am not sure if it would be fair to judge his go/no go decision on the 3-1 borderline strike pitch. Maybe I missed the post (it is 3 pages of posts to be fair to me), but did your son state why he took that pitch?  Maybe it looked really high and not something he could make a good cut on.

Coach_May posted:

Well actually yes. Good hitters hit good pitches to hit. They don't get themselves out swinging at bad pitches. Why is it so important to move up in the line up? Are you in the line up? If so then do your job where you are. I am sure everyone on the bench would be glad to trade places with you. 

Trying to impress the coach by not walking? Walking IS hitting. It means you are getting on base. It means your producing quality at bats. It means you are not swinging at pitches out of the zone. It means your probably getting pitches for the next guy to hit. And when your not swinging at pitches out of the zone it means you will get pitches in the zone to hit. 

I have a guy that has committed to play in College next year. He started the season in the 2 hole. He has hit in the 1 - 2 - 5 and 6 hole this year so far. He will hit in the 9 hole Friday. Has he said anything? Ummm NO. He's in the line up and has a job to do. Get on base. I would prefer a Bomb on 9 pitches. But a walk will suffice as well. Bases loaded 3-1 pitch I don't care what who the hitter is if its borderline why would you swing? You don't strike out with 2 strikes on you. But you can pop up on any count. 

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

I 100% agree with you regarding walks and what pitches to hit.  BUT, if you ask ANY KID ON YOUR TEAM would he rather walk and have the coach reduce his at bats or try to hit a not great 3-1 pitch to have the chance to stay in lineup, 100% of them will want to try and stay in the lineup.  

The truth is (ITS BEST FOR BOTH), You will never be a great hitter unless you understand that walking is a win. Go ahead and swing at borderline pitches because you don't want to walk. If your talented enough you can get away with that at the HS level. The higher up you play the less likely you will. For every Vlad who can swing at almost anything and barrel the ball there are thousands that can't. 

Teaching kids to recognize good pitches to hit and having the discipline to not swing yourself out of an at bat IS part of hitting. That borderline HS 80 mph FB - What does a borderline 82 mph Slider look like this fall when your fighting for a spot in college? You take that same approach to the next level and your toast. 

This idea of I got to get mine. I got to show I can hit. I got to impress. I got to hit walking is for scrubs. Man that simply screams ME ME ME. Don't you realize when you walk you enhance your opportunities to get better pitches to hit the next time up? You don't get into bad habits of swinging at bad pitches? That the better the pitch to hit the better the percentage you will have success when you swing? There is a reason it's called a strike. There is a penalty for not swinging at strikes. Its called strike 1 or 2 or 3. There is a reward for not swinging at balls. Its called ball 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. 

I am struck by this idea that somehow your considered a non hitter if you walk. When I was scouting I really had concerns when I was watching a kid and he swung at bad pitches. If he can't recognize at this level against this guy what are the odds he can against the guys he will face if he's drafted? Your not looking to walk. Your looking to hit. But if you don't get anything to hit you did a good job of not trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh@t. 

Then the coach is a clown and let him lead the circus. I will tell you what I would tell my own son. Don't become a bad hitter just to stay in his line up. Unless your final destination is this HS program. 

Coach_May posted:

Then the coach is a clown and let him lead the circus. I will tell you what I would tell my own son. Don't become a bad hitter just to stay in his line up. Unless your final destination is this HS program. 

I don't think he is a clown, I think he got put in a tough spot.  He was not really a baseball coach.  He was a really good high school player and then a juco kid for awhile and a football coach.  Our JV coach quit very late and he was available to fill in.  He is the Varsity football coach.  

Team of 19, new to this.  Not easy.  My son is a casualty, but hopefully works his way out of it.  We will see.  

atlnon posted:

OP already admitted that what his son did is what's best for the team.  OP and his son are not happy bec what is best for the team is not what made his son shine.  To me, the question isn't what he should do to correct this "injustice".  The question to me is why the OP puts a higher importance in his son "shining" and moving up the lineup over and above doing what's best for the team.  Why not encourage his son and tell him he did what he is supposed to do and be very happy with that, and be happy with his role in the team whether it be batting in the 10th position or being on the bench.  If his son works hard at practice and has the right attitude, it will pay off sooner or later.  And if didn't pay off, then it's still an amazing life lesson that would carry on to whatever he does in life.

I can imagine that this attitude of what's best for me personally regardless of whether if it's what's best for the team (or the company I work for or the country I live in) is what's leading to all these problem we see in society. 

I simply don't agree with you.  JV baseball, a one year vacuum.  Best for the team?  To what end?  Make the playoffs?  There aren't any.  Develop into a better player, YES.  But, that requires playing time.  The goal of EVERY kid is to play as much as possible.  EVERY KID.  Players need to make an impression on the coach based on that coaches criteria if they want to play.  

Is swinging 3-1 at a pitch you don't love ideal, of course not.  Could it be necessary, maybe.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 So, you don't believe it is possible that a new coach can misdiagnose a potential college player over the first 5 games of a season?  That all high school coaches at the JV level know what they are doing?  

 

.... Feel free to leave your hat on, but your factually based statement "unless he’s playing at a school like Avon Farms a college prospect isn’t batting at the bottom of the lineup on JV and getting pulled from the game" is utter nonsense.

Here's the thing - There are a lot of posters who come and go here. I couldn't even count the number who have been through with a "my son is great, but the coach is an idiot who isn't playing him story."

You've got posters here that are from many walks: high school coaches, scouts, parents of professional players, parents of college coaches, etc. They've seen this discussion from both sides.

So why do they seem to defend coaches? Because over time their experience has shown that it usually isn't a problem with the coach. It's usually a parent that doesn't understand the game any further than their own son's stats line.

Reality is RJM speaks from experience, if a kid was a sure fire college prospect he wouldn't be hitting bottom of the lineup as a sophomore on a not so good JV team. A kid in that position is going to need to bust his ass just to make the varsity team so he has a chance to develop into a player a college may be interested in. He's not going to make that team if when tryouts roll around and the varsity coach asks the jv coach about him (and he will), the report he gets is that he has a habit of swinging at bad pitches and he's not a "team" player.

So what advice are you actually looking for? Something you can agree with? How to hit a borderline 3-1 pitch? How to convince your son he must learn how to swing the bat even on pitches he doesn't feel he should swing at? My feeling is your not hearing what you want to hear so your not hearing it. Good luck I will bow out of this one.

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

atlnon posted:

OP already admitted that what his son did is what's best for the team.  OP and his son are not happy bec what is best for the team is not what made his son shine.  To me, the question isn't what he should do to correct this "injustice".  The question to me is why the OP puts a higher importance in his son "shining" and moving up the lineup over and above doing what's best for the team.  Why not encourage his son and tell him he did what he is supposed to do and be very happy with that, and be happy with his role in the team whether it be batting in the 10th position or being on the bench.  If his son works hard at practice and has the right attitude, it will pay off sooner or later.  And if didn't pay off, then it's still an amazing life lesson that would carry on to whatever he does in life.

I can imagine that this attitude of what's best for me personally regardless of whether if it's what's best for the team (or the company I work for or the country I live in) is what's leading to all these problem we see in society. 

I simply don't agree with you.  JV baseball, a one year vacuum.  Best for the team?  To what end?  Make the playoffs?  There aren't any.  Develop into a better player, YES.  But, that requires playing time.  The goal of EVERY kid is to play as much as possible.  EVERY KID.  Players need to make an impression on the coach based on that coaches criteria if they want to play.  

Is swinging 3-1 at a pitch you don't love ideal, of course not.  Could it be necessary, maybe.  

The primary objective of the game of the team sport of baseball is to score more runs than the other team to win the game.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a team should not try to win the game because there are no playoffs.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules does it stipulate that the objective of the game changes because it is "JV".

The objective of the batter is to make his way around the base path to score a run and/or help other teammates score a run(s).  There are multiple ways of doing so.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a batter should do something different than the objective in order to impress the coach.

When learning team sports properly, players will understand that their primary individual goals should be to help the team win the game in whatever role they are filling at that time.  Yes, it should also be the objective of the individual player to aspire to contribute as much as possible to the team goals.  Earning increased opportunities comes from skill development in practice (and other avenues) and execution in games.  This is earned over time and, yes, often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out (wait 'til he gets to college!). 

A successful team must have a sufficient number of players to handle injury, situational needs, etc., so not all will be starters.  A successful HS program must have more than sufficient number of players considering inevitable funneling of players to other interests, eligibility, injury, extent of development or lack thereof, etc., and therefore is likely to carry even more players than necessary at the sub-varsity levels.  So, even more so, not all will be starters.  This, too, is earned over time and often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out for a wide variety of reasons, including a new coach that may not yet be dialed into each players' skill set.  

There are many ways to earn and re-earn.  What you are suggesting could, potentially, be one short term way.  But it is certainly not the right way with the right approach to the team sport that is baseball as defined by the game itself.  

Golfman25 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

Not true. I have a 4 game pattern of getting pulled before a 3rd at bat and then in the final game getting pulled before a 2nd at bat.  

Coach_May posted:

So what advice are you actually looking for? Something you can agree with? How to hit a borderline 3-1 pitch? How to convince your son he must learn how to swing the bat even on pitches he doesn't feel he should swing at? My feeling is your not hearing what you want to hear so your not hearing it. Good luck I will bow out of this one.

I wasn't looking for any advice, I thought would be a good discussion and it has been.  I did get some great advice on how my son can talk to the coach.  I passed it on to him and now he will decide how he wants to handle.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Golfman25 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

Not true. I have a 4 game pattern of getting pulled before a 3rd at bat and then in the final game getting pulled before a 2nd at bat.  

Uhhh, if I have 19 on my JV roster, most everyone is getting pulled after their 2nd or 3rd AB in most games.  

You even said this in a previous post...

"The coach did not say he got pulled because of that pitch and I don't believe he did. " 

Rob T posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 So, you don't believe it is possible that a new coach can misdiagnose a potential college player over the first 5 games of a season?  That all high school coaches at the JV level know what they are doing?  

 

.... Feel free to leave your hat on, but your factually based statement "unless he’s playing at a school like Avon Farms a college prospect isn’t batting at the bottom of the lineup on JV and getting pulled from the game" is utter nonsense.

Here's the thing - There are a lot of posters who come and go here. I couldn't even count the number who have been through with a "my son is great, but the coach is an idiot who isn't playing him story."

You've got posters here that are from many walks: high school coaches, scouts, parents of professional players, parents of college coaches, etc. They've seen this discussion from both sides.

So why do they seem to defend coaches? Because over time their experience has shown that it usually isn't a problem with the coach. It's usually a parent that doesn't understand the game any further than their own son's stats line.

Reality is RJM speaks from experience, if a kid was a sure fire college prospect he wouldn't be hitting bottom of the lineup as a sophomore on a not so good JV team. A kid in that position is going to need to bust his ass just to make the varsity team so he has a chance to develop into a player a college may be interested in. He's not going to make that team if when tryouts roll around and the varsity coach asks the jv coach about him (and he will), the report he gets is that he has a habit of swinging at bad pitches and he's not a "team" player.

That's perfectly fair and I don't disagree and for sure don't want my son to be a player that swings at bad pitches. One of the main reasons he usually hits lead off is because he has a good eye and is quite selective.  He hates the idea that this situation is maybe a choice between swinging when he does not want to, or not getting to swing at all because on the bench.

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Golfman25 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

Not true. I have a 4 game pattern of getting pulled before a 3rd at bat and then in the final game getting pulled before a 2nd at bat.  

Uhhh, if I have 19 on my JV roster, most everyone is getting pulled after their 2nd or 3rd AB in most games.  

You even said this in a previous post...

"The coach did not say he got pulled because of that pitch and I don't believe he did. " 

Yes, I don't believe he did.  I don't think the coach said, damn it that kid should have hit that pitch.  I think he did not see anything to change his current thinking on my son, so he pulled him. 

I also think if that at bat was a double, he would not have pulled him.  

Both things can be true at the same time...

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

atlnon posted:

OP already admitted that what his son did is what's best for the team.  OP and his son are not happy bec what is best for the team is not what made his son shine.  To me, the question isn't what he should do to correct this "injustice".  The question to me is why the OP puts a higher importance in his son "shining" and moving up the lineup over and above doing what's best for the team.  Why not encourage his son and tell him he did what he is supposed to do and be very happy with that, and be happy with his role in the team whether it be batting in the 10th position or being on the bench.  If his son works hard at practice and has the right attitude, it will pay off sooner or later.  And if didn't pay off, then it's still an amazing life lesson that would carry on to whatever he does in life.

I can imagine that this attitude of what's best for me personally regardless of whether if it's what's best for the team (or the company I work for or the country I live in) is what's leading to all these problem we see in society. 

I simply don't agree with you.  JV baseball, a one year vacuum.  Best for the team?  To what end?  Make the playoffs?  There aren't any.  Develop into a better player, YES.  But, that requires playing time.  The goal of EVERY kid is to play as much as possible.  EVERY KID.  Players need to make an impression on the coach based on that coaches criteria if they want to play.  

Is swinging 3-1 at a pitch you don't love ideal, of course not.  Could it be necessary, maybe.  

The primary objective of the game of the team sport of baseball is to score more runs than the other team to win the game.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a team should not try to win the game because there are no playoffs.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules does it stipulate that the objective of the game changes because it is "JV".

The objective of the batter is to make his way around the base path to score a run and/or help other teammates score a run(s).  There are multiple ways of doing so.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a batter should do something different than the objective in order to impress the coach.

When learning team sports properly, players will understand that their primary individual goals should be to help the team win the game in whatever role they are filling at that time.  Yes, it should also be the objective of the individual player to aspire to contribute as much as possible to the team goals.  Earning increased opportunities comes from skill development in practice (and other avenues) and execution in games.  This is earned over time and, yes, often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out (wait 'til he gets to college!). 

A successful team must have a sufficient number of players to handle injury, situational needs, etc., so not all will be starters.  A successful HS program must have more than sufficient number of players considering inevitable funneling of players to other interests, eligibility, injury, extent of development or lack thereof, etc., and therefore is likely to carry even more players than necessary at the sub-varsity levels.  So, even more so, not all will be starters.  This, too, is earned over time and often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out for a wide variety of reasons, including a new coach that may not yet be dialed into each players' skill set.  

There are many ways to earn and re-earn.  What you are suggesting could, potentially, be one short term way.  But it is certainly not the right way with the right approach to the team sport that is baseball as defined by the game itself.  

Should, should, should.  The primary goal of a player is to play.  Their next goal is to win.  Ask 1,000 players if they would rather sit on the bench and win or play and win less.  What do you think the results will be...

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Coach_May posted:

Then the coach is a clown and let him lead the circus. I will tell you what I would tell my own son. Don't become a bad hitter just to stay in his line up. Unless your final destination is this HS program. 

I don't think he is a clown, I think he got put in a tough spot.  He was not really a baseball coach.  He was a really good high school player and then a juco kid for awhile and a football coach.  Our JV coach quit very late and he was available to fill in.  He is the Varsity football coach.  

Team of 19, new to this.  Not easy.  My son is a casualty, but hopefully works his way out of it.  We will see.  

You seem to be a little fixated on the size of the team.  My kids former HS team carries somewhere between 19-23 players on V.  How many depends on the talent level at the school that year.  I don't know of a team in our area that carries less then 19.  

From earlier discussions on this board, 19 is not out of bounds.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Golfman25 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

Not true. I have a 4 game pattern of getting pulled before a 3rd at bat and then in the final game getting pulled before a 2nd at bat.  

Uhhh, if I have 19 on my JV roster, most everyone is getting pulled after their 2nd or 3rd AB in most games.  

You even said this in a previous post...

"The coach did not say he got pulled because of that pitch and I don't believe he did. " 

Yes, I don't believe he did.  I don't think the coach said, damn it that kid should have hit that pitch.  I think he did not see anything to change his current thinking on my son, so he pulled him. 

I also think if that at bat was a double, he would not have pulled him.  

Both things can be true at the same time...

You don't know that.  The pattern seems to be -- a couple of at bats, then little Johnny gets his turn.  

Look, we have a bad coach.  He is the head clown.  Can't judge talent, doesn't know the game very well, makes bonehead decisions.  I have seen it all.  Guys that are 0 fer their career being the DH.  Kids moving up and down the lineup with no baseball rational at all.  Kids playing way out of position.  Pinch hitting for kids as they step into the box.  Not pinch hitting when your down by a crap load of runs and the game is over.  We had a kid who struck out almost every at bat, who was kept in the same spot in the line up, while others had to fight for their lives to stay relevant.  Nothing makes sense.  Trying to figure out a bad coach's next move is impossible because there is not rational reason for it -- it just happens. 

But the worst thing you can do is judge every at bat by the result.  You have to judge it by the at bat itself.  If you go up pressing for a hit, because you think you need it to stay in the line up, more bad than good will happen.  If you go up and focus on having have a good at bat, eventually everything works out.  

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Golfman25 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

That is all great in theory.  But, I have given you a real world scenario where the coach is clearly with his actions indicating that without HITS, playing time will be reduced.  Cause that is what is happening.  it is not theoretical.  

 

Actually, you don't have solid evidence of that.  You have one situation, in one game where your kid got pulled.  You think it was because he walked.  Unless your coach is a real clown (and I know them when I see them), I could almost guarantee that is not the case.  

Not true. I have a 4 game pattern of getting pulled before a 3rd at bat and then in the final game getting pulled before a 2nd at bat.  

Uhhh, if I have 19 on my JV roster, most everyone is getting pulled after their 2nd or 3rd AB in most games.  

You even said this in a previous post...

"The coach did not say he got pulled because of that pitch and I don't believe he did. " 

As I mentioned a minute ago, our HS V rosters are at least 19.  Our JV rosters are a little larger.  Its not unusual for kids to be pulled half way through the game (~3rd AB) to sub kids in.  This is to get everyone playing time.  JV is about development in our HS and the only way to develop is to play.  If its a pitchers dual, kids may get yanked before the 2nd AB.  Again, its about getting kids in the game. 

Also, its not unusual for our kids to be walking to the plate when the coach yanks them.  Our HCs coach 3rd and have a bench coach in the dugout.  Lots of times the HC will give directions before heading out and then make a last minute change.  The change is communicated with a time out being called from 3rd with a yell down, hey, "swap johnny in".  A lot of it has to do with getting kids playing time.

There is a 3rd possibility you have not considered.  My son was a lefty power hitter.  He did not hit well against a slow lefty looping breaking ball pitcher.  My kid knew it, I knew it, the coach knew it, heck the opposing teams knew it.  If the team brought in one of these type of pitchers in a close game, my kid was getting the hook.  Maybe the coach saw something in the way your kid was swinging against the pitcher and decided to make a change.  

There are now almost 3 full pages of discussion of whether or not a "10-hole" hitter (I can't even believe that's a thing) on a self-described bad JV team should swing at a borderline 3-1 pitch or not, as if this situation is the crossroads of the "10-hole" hitter's (I can't even believe that's a thing) athletic future.

I Just wanted to point that out. Hope everyone's having a great season!

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

atlnon posted:

OP already admitted that what his son did is what's best for the team.  OP and his son are not happy bec what is best for the team is not what made his son shine.  To me, the question isn't what he should do to correct this "injustice".  The question to me is why the OP puts a higher importance in his son "shining" and moving up the lineup over and above doing what's best for the team.  Why not encourage his son and tell him he did what he is supposed to do and be very happy with that, and be happy with his role in the team whether it be batting in the 10th position or being on the bench.  If his son works hard at practice and has the right attitude, it will pay off sooner or later.  And if didn't pay off, then it's still an amazing life lesson that would carry on to whatever he does in life.

I can imagine that this attitude of what's best for me personally regardless of whether if it's what's best for the team (or the company I work for or the country I live in) is what's leading to all these problem we see in society. 

I simply don't agree with you.  JV baseball, a one year vacuum.  Best for the team?  To what end?  Make the playoffs?  There aren't any.  Develop into a better player, YES.  But, that requires playing time.  The goal of EVERY kid is to play as much as possible.  EVERY KID.  Players need to make an impression on the coach based on that coaches criteria if they want to play.  

Is swinging 3-1 at a pitch you don't love ideal, of course not.  Could it be necessary, maybe.  

The primary objective of the game of the team sport of baseball is to score more runs than the other team to win the game.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a team should not try to win the game because there are no playoffs.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules does it stipulate that the objective of the game changes because it is "JV".

The objective of the batter is to make his way around the base path to score a run and/or help other teammates score a run(s).  There are multiple ways of doing so.  Nowhere in the guidelines and rules of the game does it imply that a batter should do something different than the objective in order to impress the coach.

When learning team sports properly, players will understand that their primary individual goals should be to help the team win the game in whatever role they are filling at that time.  Yes, it should also be the objective of the individual player to aspire to contribute as much as possible to the team goals.  Earning increased opportunities comes from skill development in practice (and other avenues) and execution in games.  This is earned over time and, yes, often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out (wait 'til he gets to college!). 

A successful team must have a sufficient number of players to handle injury, situational needs, etc., so not all will be starters.  A successful HS program must have more than sufficient number of players considering inevitable funneling of players to other interests, eligibility, injury, extent of development or lack thereof, etc., and therefore is likely to carry even more players than necessary at the sub-varsity levels.  So, even more so, not all will be starters.  This, too, is earned over time and often it is necessary to re-earn it day in and day out for a wide variety of reasons, including a new coach that may not yet be dialed into each players' skill set.  

There are many ways to earn and re-earn.  What you are suggesting could, potentially, be one short term way.  But it is certainly not the right way with the right approach to the team sport that is baseball as defined by the game itself.  

Should, should, should.  The primary goal of a player is to play.  Their next goal is to win.  Ask 1,000 players if they would rather sit on the bench and win or play and win less.  What do you think the results will be...

It's fine if the player's primary goal is to play as long as he conducts himself within the guidelines and goals of the team and accepts his role in a way that helps the team whether he is playing or not.   I have some guys on our V that are not starters (usually) but are with V because they show they have the ability to contribute to team objectives, continue to work hard and improve, maintain a positive attitude and willingness to fill their role to the best of their ability while they are working to take on a role that sees them playing more game innings.  History (and common sense) tells me that this will work out quite well for most of them going forward.  I have juniors on JV who are older than some of the V players and have similar skill sets but have shown that their personal playing time takes priority over team needs, goals and objectives.  So, there on JV they sit and believe me, it will affect their ability to contribute with varsity next year, their last.  On top of that, they don't play as much on JV as they anticipated because the program needs to develop players who are more interested in helping the team and the program and these are the players who will be more successful in the long run.  It's not like those JV juniors won't get their chance next year just as others will.  But I've seen this play out year after year.  For most, it won't end well. 

I have hung around the discussion longer than I stated earlier, largely because you have certainly maintained your civility and shown you know your way around a discussion/debate.  It is clear at this point that we disagree on a few fundamental points and, as you said, that's OK.  I feel that my stance on team is important partially because, as others have alluded to, this touches on so many aspects of our society and I feel the lack of willingness to put others first, to put family, friends, community, country, those in more need than us first is deteriorating and is being reflected by what is going on around us.  Baseball is just a game.  Team sports... same.  But team sports is an arena where our youth learn some of these things, one way or another.  And the support and direction from the parent is front and center in that arena.

cabbagedad posted:

It's fine if the player's primary goal is to play as long as he conducts himself within the goals of the team and accepts his role in a way that helps the team whether he is playing or not.   I have some guys on our V that are not starters (usually) but are with V because they show they have the ability to contribute to team objectives, continue to work hard and improve, maintain a positive attitude and willingness to fill their role to the best of their ability while they are working to take on a role that sees them playing more game innings.  History (and common sense) tells me that this will work out quite well for most of them going forward.  I have juniors on JV who are older than some of the V players and have similar skill sets but have shown that their personal playing time takes priority over team needs, goals and objectives.  So, there on JV they sit and believe me, it will affect their ability to contribute with varsity next year, their last.  On top of that, they don't play as much on JV as they anticipated because the program needs to develop players who are more interested in helping the team and the program and these are the players who will be more successful in the long run.  It's not like those JV juniors won't get their chance next year just as others will.  But I've seen this play out year after year.  For most, it won't end well. 

I have hung around the discussion longer than I stated earlier, largely because you have certainly maintained your civility and shown you know your way around a discussion/debate.  It is clear at this point that we disagree on a few fundamental points and, as you said, that's OK.  I feel that my stance on team is important partially because, as others have alluded to, this touches on so many aspects of our society and I feel the lack of willingness to put others first, to put family, friends, community, country, those in more need than us first is deteriorating and is being reflected by what is going on around us.  Baseball is just a game.  Team sports... same.  But team sports is an arena where our youth learn some of these things, one way or another.  And the support and direction from the parent is front and center in that arena.

What he said.

OP, I hear what you are saying and totally disagree with it.  I don't post a lot and normally lurk to learn.  I can't help be drawn in to this conversation bec of how you brazenly maintain that there's nothing wrong with being selfish at the expense of the team, and how you are guiding your son according to this principle to achieve his goal of playing more.

There's another thread in the board about a volleyball coach getting suspended for penalizing a kid who refused to come out of a game to be substituted.  I can't help but wonder how a kid got to be like that.  Thanks for helping me understand how a kid can get to that point.

To me, this is not about whether he should have swung at that 3-1 pitch or not, or how a coach evaluates a kid or how he coaches his team.  It's all about the idea that there's nothing wrong with teaching a kid to be selfish to improve his own playing time at the expense of the team.

Has this really went on for 3 pages????  I read the first page and knew right away we have a coach hater.  It's funny he wonders why we "blindly" accept coaches as always being right but my question back is "why would we blindly accept an upset parent is right"?

Must be tough to have the whole world out to get you all the time.  Moving on.......

atlnon posted:

cabbagedad posted:

It's fine if the player's primary goal is to play as long as he conducts himself within the goals of the team and accepts his role in a way that helps the team whether he is playing or not.   I have some guys on our V that are not starters (usually) but are with V because they show they have the ability to contribute to team objectives, continue to work hard and improve, maintain a positive attitude and willingness to fill their role to the best of their ability while they are working to take on a role that sees them playing more game innings.  History (and common sense) tells me that this will work out quite well for most of them going forward.  I have juniors on JV who are older than some of the V players and have similar skill sets but have shown that their personal playing time takes priority over team needs, goals and objectives.  So, there on JV they sit and believe me, it will affect their ability to contribute with varsity next year, their last.  On top of that, they don't play as much on JV as they anticipated because the program needs to develop players who are more interested in helping the team and the program and these are the players who will be more successful in the long run.  It's not like those JV juniors won't get their chance next year just as others will.  But I've seen this play out year after year.  For most, it won't end well. 

I have hung around the discussion longer than I stated earlier, largely because you have certainly maintained your civility and shown you know your way around a discussion/debate.  It is clear at this point that we disagree on a few fundamental points and, as you said, that's OK.  I feel that my stance on team is important partially because, as others have alluded to, this touches on so many aspects of our society and I feel the lack of willingness to put others first, to put family, friends, community, country, those in more need than us first is deteriorating and is being reflected by what is going on around us.  Baseball is just a game.  Team sports... same.  But team sports is an arena where our youth learn some of these things, one way or another.  And the support and direction from the parent is front and center in that arena.

What he said.

OP, I hear what you are saying and totally disagree with it.  I don't post a lot and normally lurk to learn.  I can't help be drawn in to this conversation bec of how you brazenly maintain that there's nothing wrong with being selfish at the expense of the team, and how you are guiding your son according to this principle to achieve his goal of playing more.

There's another thread in the board about a volleyball coach getting suspended for penalizing a kid who refused to come out of a game to be substituted.  I can't help but wonder how a kid got to be like that.  Thanks for helping me understand how a kid can get to that point.

To me, this is not about whether he should have swung at that 3-1 pitch or not, or how a coach evaluates a kid or how he coaches his team.  It's all about the idea that there's nothing wrong with teaching a kid to be selfish to improve his own playing time at the expense of the team.

I think you are taking a bridge too far..Can't say I have ever been accused of being a bad parent.  Especially by someone I don't know based on a baseball string.  The internet is an amazing place...

The conversation is about swinging at a pitch that was called a STRIKE, it did not bounce in.  It was just a 3-1 count and not his ideal pitch.  About whether taking a chance on that pitch was a good idea.  If it could have turned around a coaches opinion and led to more chances to prove a player's worth.  It is not an indictment on America, baseball ethics or parenting.  

The coach did not call a take, which he could have done, eliminating any chance of a swing.  He left it up to the hitter to be aggressive if he deemed fit.  My son choose to be conservative and this conversation was about if he could have been better served being less conservative.  

Has anyone here ever seen the movie The Paper Chase? Intense back & fourth all semester long between a Law Student (Mr. Hart) & the genius Professor Kingsfield. The entire movie is a set up for the final interaction between the two when Mr. Hart, the student, has been in awe of Kingsfield & just knows that Kingsfield stays up nights thinking of his precious student, Mr. Hart. Then, in the elevator after the semester is over Hart thanks Kingsfield for all he has done & Kingsfield does not even recognize him.

The fact is that it is extremely likely that this JV coach could give a rip about whether Johnny, who hits 10 hole, gets 2 or 3 at bats, and further, without question, has no recollection of if he got 3 at bats or 2 per game in the prior games leading up to this insane conversation about a 3-1 pitch determining his future role in the lineup.

Meanwhile, parents are living & dying hanging on not only every AB, but every 3-1 pitch, magnifying it's importance beyond all reason just knowing that the Coach is basing his entire opinion of the player on a specific pitch or AB & this will likely shape his baseball future.

Just think about the absurdity of this discussion. 

The cream always rises to the top. If the player is a quality player, he will display this to a degree that is impossible to restrain or ignore. He will get continued opportunities either in JV, V or Travel. If he gets buried by a 3-1 take for a walk & never recovers, then it was just not there so let it go.

coach2709 posted:

Has this really went on for 3 pages????  I read the first page and knew right away we have a coach hater.  It's funny he wonders why we "blindly" accept coaches as always being right but my question back is "why would we blindly accept an upset parent is right"?

Must be tough to have the whole world out to get you all the time.  Moving on.......

Unreal.  Actually I think the coach is a nice guy in a tough spot who is just drawing too fast of a conclusion.  I have never indicated that I want to in any way try and talk to the coach, get him in trouble or really anything about him.  

The post was about WHAT COULD MY SON DO to turn around the coaches opinion.  If taking a chance was worth it. If it could change the current pattern. If trying to drive his not ideal pitch was worth it.  But, all you saw was coach hater.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I think you are taking a bridge too far..Can't say I have ever been accused of being a bad parent.  Especially by someone I don't know based on a baseball string.  The internet is an amazing place...

The conversation is about swinging at a pitch that was called a STRIKE, it did not bounce in.  It was just a 3-1 count and not his ideal pitch.  About whether taking a chance on that pitch was a good idea.  If it could have turned around a coaches opinion and led to more chances to prove a player's worth.  It is not an indictment on America, baseball ethics or parenting.  

The coach did not call a take, which he could have done, eliminating any chance of a swing.  He left it up to the hitter to be aggressive if he deemed fit.  My son choose to be conservative and this conversation was about if he could have been better served being less conservative.  

 

We crossed that bridge when you admitted that taking that 3-1 pitch and eventually getting walked is what's best for the team, but you think that your son should have swung at that 3-1 pitch bec it could be what's better for him personally (to get more playing time).  All your justification and explanation is all about how to further your son's playing time regardless of what's best for the team.  You further justified it by saying that the team and the game doesn't matter bec it's JV and there's no playoffs.  I can put all your relevant post here but I don't feel like going back to all 3 pages of postings.

Yes, your question is about taking a chance on that pitch.  What we are telling you is that there's an underlying principle behind that question that is all about how to get your son more playing time regardless of what's best for the team, as oppose to teaching your son to earn more playing time and to impress his coach by placing the team first all the time, working hard at practice, showing that he understand whatever role he's been given in the team, performing his role well, and willing to do whatever it takes for the team.