Venting...When is it a must swing...tough start to a season!

hsbaseball101 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

Borderline pitches are rarely hit hard and as you move up in talent levels it becomes more difficult to hit them hard. 

Maybe print out that opening post and give it to the coach so he knows how great your son is since he's not showing it in games or practices.

Borderline pitches are hit well non-stop as you advance.  Watch any MLB game, college game.  And, not just pitches that are in the zone as this one was.  Over and over you see players line a outside curve to right field to make a difference.  Drive a low pitch out of the zone over the fence.  If good hits only happened when pitchers made mistakes and threw the batters ideal pitch baseball would be a terrible game.  

Is that ideal, no.  But, the best hitters hit non-ideal pitches all the time.  

I can't tell you the number of times I have watched a rookie come up to the majors and swing at stuff they should not.  Partly because they are fooled and partly because they want to make an impression.  Not get sent back down, they are thinking their interests first.  

It is part of the game. Hell, it is part of life. Part of capitalism.  The idea that people can only create success when conditions are ideal is a failing strategy.  

That's really not that easy to come by.  We have an all state D1 commit in our league who doesn't make contact with bad pitches.  He's very patient and squares up well on pitches he likes.  I have the one guy on my team who can hit those pitches, any pitches.  He's swung and missed just once this year and last year 3 times total as a freshman.  But he's far from D1 material unless someone projects they can add 30mph to his max velo.  

So I'm confused. This guy can rake but is he throwing with the wrong arm? Just curious.

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Rob T posted:

...

In this thread you have had opinions from:

• High school coaches
• Travel coaches
• Professional scouts
• College players
• College coaches

They have all said the player did the right thing.

The only person saying the player was wrong:

• The player's dad

There are some very experienced people telling you that your advice wasn't good, and that it wasn't going to produce the results you seek. They've explained why. It's your choice to listen or not - but just realize that you aren't getting advice from people who haven't been in your shoes, or the shoes of the coaches your son will play for. I haven't always liked things I was told, but the advice was rooted in experience - and more often that not it turned out to be correct.

 

 

...

My issue here is this fell into the "what's best for the team" end all be all logic.  And I think some disingenuous responses.   

I think most people agree (even the posters) that if that at bat resulted in a double it was MORE LIKELY he remains on the field.  That they also agree that swinging at a 3-1 fastball that was called a strike is not really crazy at all. 

 

...

I think what you point out in this post as "My issue" (bolded) is the real issue and not the particulars of taking a 3-1 pitch.  While I have made it clear that I believe "what's best for the team" is very important, I understand that it is not always completely black and white and not the end all be all.  Some of your comments about kids just wanting to play certainly hold merit and must be weighed into the equation when coaches are charting their programs.

On the other hand, you have made it clear that you lean much harder on the other end of the spectrum, against the "what's best for the team" concept, particularly as it pertains to JV baseball, stating or implying that your son should do what is best for him first, downplaying (to put it mildly) the importance of the team concept.

I find this curious as you otherwise show indications of being the type of person who would recognize the importance of the concept (in my experience) and the effect it has on other aspects of most everyone's daily lives.  I would be interested to hear your thoughts (beyond your stated "kids just want to play") on this as well as your thoughts on what you do to set the example for your kid(s) to this end.  And, if you think the concept is important and has reaching effect, where do you think kids learn from it the most?  I would also be curious to hear what you do for a living and what the few top level highlights and lowlights of your career path have been.

My questions are out of genuine interest and not meant to be a lead-in for criticism.  Of course, I don't expect you to share anything too personal.

I was thinking about hitting "reply with quote" on one of the longer sections and see if we could squeeze out 6 pages, but thought better of it.

However, I am thinking about adding the following quote to my wall....

The idea that people can only create success when conditions are ideal is a failing strategy.  

Maybe overlay this on some America's Cup sailboat taking on the big waves.

Guess I need permission.  Getting back to the OP, the final answer is "it depends".  If that was a decent pitch for his swing, then perhaps he should have taken a cut and driven the ball - assuming he is comfortable with the pitch.  As I mentioned before, if he has a tendency to chop at it, then he did great by letting it go by.  You are correct in stating that there is some probability that if he drove the ball deep on that pitch, that he might get another at bat, but whether there is a high probability depends on all sorts of things like the coaches actual expertise (maybe he gets excited easily on long fly ball outs) and, more likely, what the other 7 at bats looked like.  If he had already been driving the ball, then not sure why he was getting moved down, unless the coach doesn't appreciate well struck balls and favors the blooped to right field (especially the one right on the foul line that sort of rolls away for a double).  

If a) the #1 goal is to get more playing time and b) the coach is the one handing out playing time, then you should definitely work towards getting on the coaches good side.  Most of the responses here probably make the assumption that the coach is reasonably competent and that quality at-bats would equate to getting on the coaches good side.  If that assumption is not valid, then you may need to go with an alternative plan (maybe the swing out of your shoes approach that was outlined earlier) or maybe some other approaches that are unique to this coach (we had a coach that was dating the older sister of one of the players, but that takes a very unique set of circumstances).  

Thanks for everyone contributing as these last few days would have been awfully slow otherwise.  If you need further insight, perhaps you could post the entire 8 at bats, pitch by pitch, and maybe a more insightful response will be forthcoming.  I seriously cannot fathom how we are approaching six pages related to letting a single strike (albeit high) being passed over.  

Did anyone here about the NBA G league guys getting a big bump in pay?

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

It is perfectly logical for you to read my post and question the logic of swinging at the pitch or even not being a "team player".  Those are legitimate comments and you and others may be right about it and I may be wrong.  

But, you reading this and concluding that since he is in the #10 spot for one game and started 0-7 means he can't play (especially when provided background info) makes you look...well...not that smart...

Honestly, this is my only issue with everything you said (individual vs. team).  I purposely stayed away from any discussions of whether your son is good enough to deserve a higher spot in the batting order, or even if he is good enough to play college ball bec to be honest, it is not an issue for me.  With what you have communicated so far, I don't get any alarm bells going off that you are a delusional parent when it comes to your son's ability.

BUT I still don't understand and agree with placing the individual over the team.  I agree that all kids want to play more.  But doing any action that is not to the best interest of the team to get more playing time is not the way to do it.  If the scenario is that there are 2 outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd, and the batter behind your son is almost a guaranteed out, and you are asking if your son should have swung at the high strike at a 3-1 count as opposed to taking a walk bec it may be what is best for the team (not so that he can get more playing time), then that is a different discussion altogether.  In your son's case, he is about the turn the lineup over with that walk and no outs.

I actually had this scenario yesterday where there are runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, my son up to bat, and the kid after him is almost a guaranteed out.  The pitch grazed his finger, and umpire awarded him first base.  The next batter struck out by watching 3 strikes go by.  My son told me afterwards that he was tempted to tell the umpire that it didn't hit him or that it hit the bat (foul ball), but he said that taking first base was probably the right thing to do.  I told him that I'm thinking the same thing.

Again, kids want to play more.  But there are right ways and wrong ways of doing this.  It is our responsibilities as parents to guide them in getting more playing time the right way.  We don't want to start giving them the mindset that "I" am more important than the team, regardless of whether they are playing in a rec team, in a crappy school team, or in the MLB.  We want them to learn that contributing to the team in whatever role they are in as enjoyable as being the star of the team.  We want them to take pleasure in the success of their team mates and in the success of the team as much as their own personal success.  This does not come naturally as all of us has a selfish nature (which is normal).  But it is our responsibilities as parents to teach our kids these life lessons in baseball.

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

Here is the scenario…

Top of the 3^rd with one out, man on 2^nd and 3^rd.  My son is at the plate.  Count is 3-1.  The coach from third yells, gotta be your pitch! 

My son take a fastball that is a bit high, borderline, but probably a strike.  Count now 3-2.  Next pitch bounces in the dirt and he walks.  Should he have swung at the 3-1????  Seems like who cares, but my son and I had a long conversation last night that he should of…100%!  The walk was unacceptable.  

Now, let me set the background.  My son is a sophomore on JV.  It is not a great team.  He also plays travel and has since he was young.  Probably not a D1 player unless adds some size. He is an excellent student, wants to be a Dr. and has a decent shot to play D3 and keep playing baseball as long as possible.  Which he would love to do. 

He is just under 5’10, but is solid and strong.  Runs a 7.3 or so 60 yard dash . Exit velo low 80 ‘s and throws low 80’s. Good stats for a young sophomore, but need to improve.  

Plays every position, but catcher.  On his travel team generally center and left, it is a good team here in the Northeast and competes for some weekend championships, but not every one. He is a very good defensive player. On the freshman team he started at 2^nd for the season, this year starts at 3^rd.  He prefers outfield, but as a town we are short on infielders.   He was lead-off for the freshman team last year and led the team in BA, OBP, Hits, Doubles and a few other categories.  One other kid had more extra base hits than him.  He has pretty much led every town team in these categories for 5 years and generally in top 3 in them on his travel team.  He almost always hits leadoff because he hits and has a good eye and does not really strikeout, so is on base a lot.   

The JV team has a new coach who does not know any of the players.  My son’s tryout was decent, but nothing amazing.   He has a circulation issue in fingers and tough in the NE when tryouts and games have been in the high 30’s and windy.   We have only played 5 game so far with weather cancellations. 

In the first 4 games he batted him somewhere between 5 and 7.  He has never batted past 5 before, but everyone has to prove themselves, so no big.  Going into the game he was 0-7 on the year and leads the team in RBI as he has come up multiple times with men in scoring position and less than two outs and has gotten the runs in. In the game before last night had two long shots that were caught, the contact you want though.   Last night he was batted in the 10 spot.

He walked as I said above and then the coach when he was on deck for his second at bat pulled him.  Did not see the field again.  I have mixed feelings on whether in general that pitch should be a take ever, some would say be aggressive and get the runs in.  Others would say 3-1 and you don’t love it, take the pitch. 

BUT, in my son’s case I told him that was a MUST SWING.  Even though the coach yelled gotta be your pitch, he did not mean it.  His actions said, if you don’t make something happen I am pulling you.  This is JV so there are no playoffs, so there is no team argument.  Plain and simple he needed to make a play to not get pulled. Should have swung to fight for more at bats!

Years of performing well and 0-7 with some good shots in the prior game is the 10 hole and one at bat!  Tough game, good life lessons! 

By the way the team BA is .192…FRUSTRATING START TO A SEASON!!!

I didn’t read through all of the posts.  So, don’t know if anyone has said this, but, your son is not as good as you wish he were. His coach has nothing against him personally.  He has simply looked at him and said “He is not a star.  Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud.”  Playing lots of positions in travel league is not an indicator that one’s kid is awesome.    

If your son was great he would indicate it in practice every day and his skills would show that he deserves to play.

As CaCo Girl said, chill out on the poor kid.

I'm not sure why this just crossed my mind ...

Our parks and recreation department ran one week long 7-12yo sports camps all summer. My son went for each sport. I saw it more as fun than instruction. 

The baseball camp was run by a local D1 program coach. With the number of kids in the camp he had over two weeks I asked if the fees go a long way towards their spring trip. He laughed.

i watched and saw parents asking the coach how good their kids are and should they come back for the second week or next year. His stock answer was, “If your son practices hard there’s no telling how far he can go in the game.”

I laughed. When no one else was around I told him it’s the most honest, ambiguous answer I’ve ever heard. He laughed and said there's no telling with most of the parents of these kids. But I have a spring trip to finance. I don’t want to scare away business. I hope most parents just look at this as fun for the kids.

Teaching Elder posted:

I didn’t read through all of the posts.  So, don’t know if anyone has said this, but, your son is not as good as you wish he were. His coach has nothing against him personally.  He has simply looked at him and said “He is not a star.  Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud.”  Playing lots of positions in travel league is not an indicator that one’s kid is awesome.    

If your son was great he would indicate it in practice every day and his skills would show that he deserves to play.

As CaCo Girl said, chill out on the poor kid.

 

I don't know if I would go that far.  We know nothing about the coach.  I can vouch for one who couldn't judge talent if it kicked him in the noots.  

 

I think what you point out in this post as "My issue" (bolded) is the real issue and not the particulars of taking a 3-1 pitch.  While I have made it clear that I believe "what's best for the team" is very important, I understand that it is not always completely black and white and not the end all be all.  Some of your comments about kids just wanting to play certainly hold merit and must be weighed into the equation when coaches are charting their programs.

On the other hand, you have made it clear that you lean much harder on the other end of the spectrum, against the "what's best for the team" concept, particularly as it pertains to JV baseball, stating or implying that your son should do what is best for him first, downplaying (to put it mildly) the importance of the team concept.

I find this curious as you otherwise show indications of being the type of person who would recognize the importance of the concept (in my experience) and the effect it has on other aspects of most everyone's daily lives.  I would be interested to hear your thoughts (beyond your stated "kids just want to play") on this as well as your thoughts on what you do to set the example for your kid(s) to this end.  And, if you think the concept is important and has reaching effect, where do you think kids learn from it the most?  I would also be curious to hear what you do for a living and what the few top level highlights and lowlights of your career path have been.

My questions are out of genuine interest and not meant to be a lead-in for criticism.  Of course, I don't expect you to share anything too personal.

 

Happy to share and an interesting topic.  I have two kids and they are quite different.  They are both overachievers, but my son really has to work for it and everything kind of comes easy to my daughter.  My daughter rides horses and competes both as a team and as a individual.  My son has really never played a non-team sport.  My daughter is really a natural leader and good teammate, my son is much more introverted and is a people pleaser.  He just listens and does not goof around.  Kind of a do your job and keep quiet kid.  He was voted as a team captain by his teammates last two seasons, but really should not be.  He does not do any of the things you want in a captain / leader other than he plays well.

I try and teach both the value of working with others and teams, but you make your own success.  I see this played out much more in school than in baseball.  I don't really see the team sacrifice in baseball the same or very often.  Maybe sometimes a coach will call a bunt and you want to hit away, but you do what the coach calls and that is that. Baseball is a stats game and although kids want to win and get frustrated when they don't, you can find solace in individual achievement.  

In school you see group projects all the time where kids collectively earn a grade.  Groups made up of poor students who don't try and students who care and achieve.  I teach my kids that yes, there is a team, but would you rather just go along with a team and group think and maybe get a C or possibly a B or take charge and ensure you get an A.  Even if have to carry more of the burden.  Help everyone get the A.  

Career -  I help companies as an external adviser and support entity and have done it in-house as well for a few companies.  Corporate restructuring, mergers, operational redesign, offshoring operations, etc.  Have managed teams as small as a few people and a global organization of 500+.  

atlnon posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

It is perfectly logical for you to read my post and question the logic of swinging at the pitch or even not being a "team player".  Those are legitimate comments and you and others may be right about it and I may be wrong.  

But, you reading this and concluding that since he is in the #10 spot for one game and started 0-7 means he can't play (especially when provided background info) makes you look...well...not that smart...

Honestly, this is my only issue with everything you said (individual vs. team).  I purposely stayed away from any discussions of whether your son is good enough to deserve a higher spot in the batting order, or even if he is good enough to play college ball bec to be honest, it is not an issue for me.  With what you have communicated so far, I don't get any alarm bells going off that you are a delusional parent when it comes to your son's ability.

BUT I still don't understand and agree with placing the individual over the team.  I agree that all kids want to play more.  But doing any action that is not to the best interest of the team to get more playing time is not the way to do it.  If the scenario is that there are 2 outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd, and the batter behind your son is almost a guaranteed out, and you are asking if your son should have swung at the high strike at a 3-1 count as opposed to taking a walk bec it may be what is best for the team (not so that he can get more playing time), then that is a different discussion altogether.  In your son's case, he is about the turn the lineup over with that walk and no outs.

I actually had this scenario yesterday where there are runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, my son up to bat, and the kid after him is almost a guaranteed out.  The pitch grazed his finger, and umpire awarded him first base.  The next batter struck out by watching 3 strikes go by.  My son told me afterwards that he was tempted to tell the umpire that it didn't hit him or that it hit the bat (foul ball), but he said that taking first base was probably the right thing to do.  I told him that I'm thinking the same thing.

Again, kids want to play more.  But there are right ways and wrong ways of doing this.  It is our responsibilities as parents to guide them in getting more playing time the right way.  We don't want to start giving them the mindset that "I" am more important than the team, regardless of whether they are playing in a rec team, in a crappy school team, or in the MLB.  We want them to learn that contributing to the team in whatever role they are in as enjoyable as being the star of the team.  We want them to take pleasure in the success of their team mates and in the success of the team as much as their own personal success.  This does not come naturally as all of us has a selfish nature (which is normal).  But it is our responsibilities as parents to teach our kids these life lessons in baseball.

I pretty much agree with everything you have said here, the only thing I would say is it is possible to be both.  Teaching selflessness and teamwork does not have to be mutually exclusive with some selfishness.  In fact some selfishness can be better for the team.  Like in your example with the finger or as we see played out in the final minutes of every NBA playoff game. 

Better players have the ball and take worse shots over giving up the ball to open role players.  By design. 

Your son could have been selfish in that scenario and still did what was "best" for the team...and you can still teach your child teamwork and selflessness in many other areas of life in addition to athletics.  

 

I didn’t read through all of the posts.  So, don’t know if anyone has said this, but, your son is not as good as you wish he were. His coach has nothing against him personally.  He has simply looked at him and said “He is not a star.  Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud.”  Playing lots of positions in travel league is not an indicator that one’s kid is awesome.    

If your son was great he would indicate it in practice every day and his skills would show that he deserves to play.

As CaCo Girl said, chill out on the poor kid.

 

I guess I would say a few things.  Yes, I wish he were as good as Bryce Harper...that would be cool.  Yes, his coach has nothing against him, nor did I say he did.   As for the rest of your comments, not going to bother to discuss other than to say...you're an ass!  

For those interested had a game Friday night.  Hit in the 2 hole (In 6 games has hit 5th, 6th, 6th,10th and now 2nd).  Was the starting pitcher and had two at bats.  1-2 with a double. Came off the mound in the 6th and the new pitcher got the 3rd at bat.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

For those interested had a game Friday night.  Hit in the 2 hole (In 6 games has hit 5th, 6th, 6th,10th and now 2nd).  Was the starting pitcher and had two at bats.  1-2 with a double. Came off the mound in the 6th and the new pitcher got the 3rd at bat.  

So the double didn't help keep him in the lineup then?  He got the double you wanted and he was still removed from the game.

Here's a question that may or may not have been asked - does the coach substitute everyone on the bench into the games or at least most of them?

coach2709 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

For those interested had a game Friday night.  Hit in the 2 hole (In 6 games has hit 5th, 6th, 6th,10th and now 2nd).  Was the starting pitcher and had two at bats.  1-2 with a double. Came off the mound in the 6th and the new pitcher got the 3rd at bat.  

So the double didn't help keep him in the lineup then?  He got the double you wanted and he was still removed from the game.

Here's a question that may or may not have been asked - does the coach substitute everyone on the bench into the games or at least most of them?

hmmm....I am really not sure.  He got pulled after 5 and 2/3 on the mound and the relief pitcher got the at bat.  I guess could have left him in to hit, I am not sure how that works in our league but I did not read much into it.  He had thrown 75 pitches against the number 1 team, so seemed natural to pull him completely.  Although the kid who was brought in was his first at bat of the year and he struck out.  He had never hit a pitcher up high in the lineup so I read it as a positive sign regardless of not getting the 3rd at bat.  

There are 5 kids or so who never sit.  Another group like my son who play probably 2/3rds and then a large goup that share that 1/3rd although not evenly.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 

I didn’t read through all of the posts.  So, don’t know if anyone has said this, but, your son is not as good as you wish he were. His coach has nothing against him personally.  He has simply looked at him and said “He is not a star.  Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud.”  Playing lots of positions in travel league is not an indicator that one’s kid is awesome.    

If your son was great he would indicate it in practice every day and his skills would show that he deserves to play.

As CaCo Girl said, chill out on the poor kid.

 

I guess I would say a few things.  Yes, I wish he were as good as Bryce Harper...that would be cool.  Yes, his coach has nothing against him, nor did I say he did.   As for the rest of your comments, not going to bother to discuss other than to say...you're an ass!  

You sound angry.

Teaching Elder posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 

I didn’t read through all of the posts.  So, don’t know if anyone has said this, but, your son is not as good as you wish he were. His coach has nothing against him personally.  He has simply looked at him and said “He is not a star.  Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud.”  Playing lots of positions in travel league is not an indicator that one’s kid is awesome.    

If your son was great he would indicate it in practice every day and his skills would show that he deserves to play.

As CaCo Girl said, chill out on the poor kid.

 

I guess I would say a few things.  Yes, I wish he were as good as Bryce Harper...that would be cool.  Yes, his coach has nothing against him, nor did I say he did.   As for the rest of your comments, not going to bother to discuss other than to say...you're an ass!  

You sound angry.

Actually his comment make me smile, who wouldn't when someone on the internet says about you son...."Truly, he’s mediocre at best.  He’s a 10 hole hitter and isn’t a defensive stud".  

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like the coach has a plan

1. Your son was on a strict pitch count if he was removed at 75 with one out to go.  To me 75 pitches in the 6th inning shows he was being very good / efficient.  Looks to be he was roughly 12 pitches per inning which is good.

2.  Looks like the coach doesn't think your son is in the best group but is in the next group.  At least he's not in the bottom group who plays an unequal 1/3 of the game.

Look here's the bottom line - none of us can truly answer any of your questions because we have never son play and never will.  All we have to go on is your resume you spit out in the first post.  That is a biased perspective that vast majority of us take with a grain of salt.  End of the day he's on JV and he can either use this time to get better with the chances he gets or he can see himself as getting screwed over or whatever.  You will foster one of those with how you talk to him.  One of the things I've found that reveals a lot is when someone complains my automatic answer is "get better".  

I should be playing more - get better

I don't like playing this position and want to play there - get better

Or you can help him develop a victim mentality and blame others or create excuses.  I have no problem with someone getting on here venting frustrations but this has went on for 5 pages.  Every time someone tells you something constructive you create an excuse.  This is how it's went on for 5 pages.  

coach2709 posted:

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like the coach has a plan

1. Your son was on a strict pitch count if he was removed at 75 with one out to go.  To me 75 pitches in the 6th inning shows he was being very good / efficient.  Looks to be he was roughly 12 pitches per inning which is good.

2.  Looks like the coach doesn't think your son is in the best group but is in the next group.  At least he's not in the bottom group who plays an unequal 1/3 of the game.

Look here's the bottom line - none of us can truly answer any of your questions because we have never son play and never will.  All we have to go on is your resume you spit out in the first post.  That is a biased perspective that vast majority of us take with a grain of salt.  End of the day he's on JV and he can either use this time to get better with the chances he gets or he can see himself as getting screwed over or whatever.  You will foster one of those with how you talk to him.  One of the things I've found that reveals a lot is when someone complains my automatic answer is "get better".  

I should be playing more - get better

I don't like playing this position and want to play there - get better

Or you can help him develop a victim mentality and blame others or create excuses.  I have no problem with someone getting on here venting frustrations but this has went on for 5 pages.  Every time someone tells you something constructive you create an excuse.  This is how it's went on for 5 pages.  

You lost me a bit.  

My entire post was about the exact opposite of being a victim. It was all about making something happen.  Not being a victim or letting others decide your fate, but taking a chance, ,making a play.  I 100% agree it is up to the coach and I WOULD NEVER talk to a coach about my son's playing time.  It is not my place.  

People are treated unfairly everyday.  Some people take actions to get what they want, other people just blame people for their misfortune.  

You told your son to go against baseball wisdom and swing at a pitchers pitch in a positive count because if he had doubled then he would have stayed in the game.  That is purely selfish and undermines the coach no matter how good he is.  You did that in front of your son.  You're telling your son it's the coach is wrong and now he will start questioning other decisions made.  Based on what you're telling me on here it sounds like your son is part of a bigger plan the coach has for developing players by playing them in games.  Based on what you put your son isn't performing and is part of the second group.

This has went on for 5 pages because of you not listening to the others. You're right - you are lost.

coach2709 posted:

You told your son to go against baseball wisdom and swing at a pitchers pitch in a positive count because if he had doubled then he would have stayed in the game.  That is purely selfish and undermines the coach no matter how good he is.  You did that in front of your son.  You're telling your son it's the coach is wrong and now he will start questioning other decisions made.  Based on what you're telling me on here it sounds like your son is part of a bigger plan the coach has for developing players by playing them in games.  Based on what you put your son isn't performing and is part of the second group.

This has went on for 5 pages because of you not listening to the others. You're right - you are lost.

The coach is in charge, if he wanted the 3-1 to be a take, all he had to do is give the sign.  He was not undermined in any way.  He was not ignored in any way.  I never suggested to question a single decision a coach made or ever not to listen to the coach. 

And yet here we are 5 pages later and you're still looking for the answer you want which justifies everything you did.

No, I was not and nor am I now looking for affirmation.  My son will succeed or not in baseball regardless of this discussion, that pitch or any conversation we had that day.

I was venting and offering a different perspective on a scenario for discussion purposes.  Personally I think this is five pages because the community blew a small topic out of proportion, but it was a fun discussion and interesting to hear all the perspectives.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

No, I was not and nor am I now looking for affirmation.  My son will succeed or not in baseball regardless of this discussion, that pitch or any conversation we had that day.

I was venting and offering a different perspective on a scenario for discussion purposes.  Personally I think this is five pages because the community blew a small topic out of proportion, but it was a fun discussion and interesting to hear all the perspectives.  

"My son will succeed or not in baseball regardless of....that pitch" - truer words were never spoken.

As for the five pages (I am still hoping to get to six), you have to admit you held up your end of the discussion quite well - kind of stoking the fire along the way.  Not saying there are six pages worth of gold here, but there are a few nuggets buried along the way.

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

You told your son to go against baseball wisdom and swing at a pitchers pitch in a positive count because if he had doubled then he would have stayed in the game.  That is purely selfish and undermines the coach no matter how good he is.  You did that in front of your son.  You're telling your son it's the coach is wrong and now he will start questioning other decisions made.  Based on what you're telling me on here it sounds like your son is part of a bigger plan the coach has for developing players by playing them in games.  Based on what you put your son isn't performing and is part of the second group.

This has went on for 5 pages because of you not listening to the others. You're right - you are lost.

The coach is in charge, if he wanted the 3-1 to be a take, all he had to do is give the sign.  He was not undermined in any way.  He was not ignored in any way.  I never suggested to question a single decision a coach made or ever not to listen to the coach. 

 

Your original question was if your son should swing at a bad pitch....knowing it's a bad pitch, but hoping that maybe it would make him look good if he got a hit.....and you essentially said you completely disagree with the fact that he didn't swing.    Fortunately for your son, he was right in not swinging.  You were wrong....and a week later you're still wrong.  Regardless of whether or not he came out of the game....for whatever reason...he did his job...and got on base, which last time I checked is one of the main components of being able to play is game.   Congrats to your son for being a good teammate.  Hopefully he continues to listen to his head when it comes to AB's....and not to dad

Buckeye 2015 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

You told your son to go against baseball wisdom and swing at a pitchers pitch in a positive count because if he had doubled then he would have stayed in the game.  That is purely selfish and undermines the coach no matter how good he is.  You did that in front of your son.  You're telling your son it's the coach is wrong and now he will start questioning other decisions made.  Based on what you're telling me on here it sounds like your son is part of a bigger plan the coach has for developing players by playing them in games.  Based on what you put your son isn't performing and is part of the second group.

This has went on for 5 pages because of you not listening to the others. You're right - you are lost.

The coach is in charge, if he wanted the 3-1 to be a take, all he had to do is give the sign.  He was not undermined in any way.  He was not ignored in any way.  I never suggested to question a single decision a coach made or ever not to listen to the coach. 

 

Your original question was if your son should swing at a bad pitch....knowing it's a bad pitch, but hoping that maybe it would make him look good if he got a hit.....and you essentially said you completely disagree with the fact that he didn't swing.    Fortunately for your son, he was right in not swinging.  You were wrong....and a week later you're still wrong.  Regardless of whether or not he came out of the game....for whatever reason...he did his job...and got on base, which last time I checked is one of the main components of being able to play is game.   Congrats to your son for being a good teammate.  Hopefully he continues to listen to his head when it comes to AB's....and not to dad

Actually I said the pitch was borderline and was called a strike.  Not as you characterized it, "a bad pitch". 

You're right....just went back and re-read it.  Either way....again, he did his job.....if the coach pulled him for not swinging....that's his perogative, but I doubt that that's the entire reason.  Your son needs to just continue to do his job...which he did.  If he starts wanting to "be a star" and worries about getting doubles instead of just getting on base any way he can, things will go South real quick. 

I have been following along. And I must say quite a discussion. 

As for borderline pitch. In this situation it may be a bad pitch. To quote the coach "it has got to be yours" Your son judged that it was not his. What would the outcome have been if he swung and hit a weak grounder or a pop fly? That would have not improved his chances of getting more playing time. What would the coaches opinion have been in that instance? Is it possible he would have figured, your son does not recognize "His pitch to hit"? Is it possible that the coach also thought it was high and from that form an unfavorable opinion of your son's pitch recognition? 

It is all a cost benefit analysis. And it was only one pitch, in one at bat in one game, JV at that. JV is for developing players for Varsity. Do you think swinging at that pitch would have improved the coaches assessment on whether your son, was developing into a varsity player? 

You mention he is a pitcher and started against the number one team. Is it possible the Varsity coach see's him as a PO, at the varsity level? 

Just some thoughts. Good luck to your son, in his future endeavors. 

I cannot dispute he did his job, I never did.  I just find it interesting that the masses in this string don't acknowledge that their are degrees of "doing your job".  Players that drive those two runs in and hit the borderline pitch stay in the game and move up the order and both of those things are the goal of EVERY PLAYER.  Players who take the walk get a "attaboy", but stay where they are.  

I meant to ask my son about the pitch he hit a double on Friday, it looked to me to be similar to the one he let go by prior.  I will have to remember to ask him about it.  

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

I have been following along. And I must say quite a discussion. 

As for borderline pitch. In this situation it may be a bad pitch. To quote the coach "it has got to be yours" Your son judged that it was not his. What would the outcome have been if he swung and hit a weak grounder or a pop fly? That would have not improved his chances of getting more playing time. What would the coaches opinion have been in that instance? Is it possible he would have figured, your son does not recognize "His pitch to hit"? Is it possible that the coach also thought it was high and from that form an unfavorable opinion of your son's pitch recognition? 

It is all a cost benefit analysis. And it was only one pitch, in one at bat in one game, JV at that. JV is for developing players for Varsity. Do you think swinging at that pitch would have improved the coaches assessment on whether your son, was developing into a varsity player? 

You mention he is a pitcher and started against the number one team. Is it possible the Varsity coach see's him as a PO, at the varsity level? 

Just some thoughts. Good luck to your son, in his future endeavors. 

All great questions and don't really know the answer to any of them.  It is all for sure a cost benefit analysis. it also possible the coach pulled him because he wanted to see aggression he did not see.  Who knows...

It is possible they would see him as a PO, but not likely.  In our program (if I can call it that) those are pretty rare and this start on the mound surprised me.  The coach had previously approached my son and told him that although he knows he is normally a starting pitcher he planned to use him out of the bullpen because he could not afford to have his glove not in the field.  We are pretty bad defensively. In fact in the game we had 6 ground balls that were scored hits (cause they could not be scored errors)  but should have been outs.  

Fielded balls where the fielder looked to the wrong base and then were too late to throw.  Wrong position covering on a steal and then the ball goes into the vacated hole.  Fist baseman guarding the line with no one on and a right-handed batter.  

Thanks for the well wishes! 

There are 5 kids or so who never sit.  Another group like my son who play probably 2/3rds and then a large goup that share that 1/3rd although not evenly.  

This is exactly how my son’s JV coach played it. He’s a very good coach. He’s now a varsity coach elsewhere. The kids who never sat eventually became varsity players. One player in the next group elevated his game to eventually make varsity. 

The coach had previously approached my son and told him that although he knows he is normally a starting pitcher he planned to use him out of the bullpen because he could not afford to have his glove not in the field. 

This doesn't mesh with he plays 2/3rds of the time.

RJM posted:

There are 5 kids or so who never sit.  Another group like my son who play probably 2/3rds and then a large goup that share that 1/3rd although not evenly.  

This is exactly how my son’s JV coach played it. He’s a very good coach. He’s now a varsity coach elsewhere. The kids who never sat eventually became varsity players. One player in the next group elevated his game to eventually make varsity. 

I have no issue with this.  The coach should play any players he wants any amount he wants based on his assessment of ability.  

RJM posted:

The coach had previously approached my son and told him that although he knows he is normally a starting pitcher he planned to use him out of the bullpen because he could not afford to have his glove not in the field. 

This doesn't mesh with he plays 2/3rds of the time.

Well, the coach is a bit all over the place and is still learning players and what he wants to do.  But, it still does mesh.  Generally my son gets pulled in the 6th, misses one at bat and one or 1.5 innings in the field to get others in.  Two other players split the last 1-1.5 defensive innings at 3rd.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

RJM posted:

The coach had previously approached my son and told him that although he knows he is normally a starting pitcher he planned to use him out of the bullpen because he could not afford to have his glove not in the field. 

This doesn't mesh with he plays 2/3rds of the time.

Well, the coach is a bit all over the place and is still learning players and what he wants to do.  But, it still does mesh.  Generally my son gets pulled in the 6th, misses one at bat and one or 1.5 innings in the field to get others in.  Two other players split the last 1-1.5 defensive innings at 3rd.  

The coach is all over the place? LOL!

Steve A. posted:

Maybe send the coach an email detailing his historical travel ball OPS as evidence he should be leadoff??

I just spit my coffee out! 

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I cannot dispute he did his job, I never did.  I just find it interesting that the masses in this string don't acknowledge that their are degrees of "doing your job".  Players that drive those two runs in and hit the borderline pitch stay in the game and move up the order and both of those things are the goal of EVERY PLAYER.  Players who take the walk get a "attaboy", but stay where they are.  

I meant to ask my son about the pitch he hit a double on Friday, it looked to me to be similar to the one he let go by prior.  I will have to remember to ask him about it.  

I find it quite amusing that you are still holding on to the "masses in this string don't acknowledge that..."  It's funny because it is quite evident that you only hear what you want to hear.  Many folks have suggested that your son did the right thing by taking the pitch, and that by doing so, he was showing the coach that he was taking a good approach.  AB's are precious, especially in a 7 inning game.  Especially when your boy is only getting 1 to 2 per game.  That makes it even more important to ensure he has a good approach and is swinging at good pitches.  Telling him to do anything different than swing at pitches he can handle is bad advice, but go on and blame the masses for not sharing your same sentiments.

rynoattack posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I cannot dispute he did his job, I never did.  I just find it interesting that the masses in this string don't acknowledge that their are degrees of "doing your job".  Players that drive those two runs in and hit the borderline pitch stay in the game and move up the order and both of those things are the goal of EVERY PLAYER.  Players who take the walk get a "attaboy", but stay where they are.  

I meant to ask my son about the pitch he hit a double on Friday, it looked to me to be similar to the one he let go by prior.  I will have to remember to ask him about it.  

I find it quite amusing that you are still holding on to the "masses in this string don't acknowledge that..."  It's funny because it is quite evident that you only hear what you want to hear.  Many folks have suggested that your son did the right thing by taking the pitch, and that by doing so, he was showing the coach that he was taking a good approach.  AB's are precious, especially in a 7 inning game.  Especially when your boy is only getting 1 to 2 per game.  That makes it even more important to ensure he has a good approach and is swinging at good pitches.  Telling him to do anything different than swing at pitches he can handle is bad advice, but go on and blame the masses for not sharing your same sentiments.

He's angry.

coach2709 posted:

And yet here we are 5 pages later and you're still looking for the answer you want which justifies everything you did.

Let me tag onto this by saying I cant believe that a thread about ANYTHING that took place in a JV baseball game has carried on for 5 pages.

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

I have been following along. And I must say quite a discussion. 

As for borderline pitch. In this situation it may be a bad pitch. To quote the coach "it has got to be yours" Your son judged that it was not his. What would the outcome have been if he swung and hit a weak grounder or a pop fly? That would have not improved his chances of getting more playing time. What would the coaches opinion have been in that instance? Is it possible he would have figured, your son does not recognize "His pitch to hit"? Is it possible that the coach also thought it was high and from that form an unfavorable opinion of your son's pitch recognition? 

It is all a cost benefit analysis. And it was only one pitch, in one at bat in one game, JV at that. JV is for developing players for Varsity. Do you think swinging at that pitch would have improved the coaches assessment on whether your son, was developing into a varsity player? 

You mention he is a pitcher and started against the number one team. Is it possible the Varsity coach see's him as a PO, at the varsity level? 

Just some thoughts. Good luck to your son, in his future endeavors. 

All great questions and don't really know the answer to any of them.  It is all for sure a cost benefit analysis. it also possible the coach pulled him because he wanted to see aggression he did not see.  Who knows...

It is possible they would see him as a PO, but not likely.  In our program (if I can call it that) those are pretty rare and this start on the mound surprised me.  The coach had previously approached my son and told him that although he knows he is normally a starting pitcher he planned to use him out of the bullpen because he could not afford to have his glove not in the field.  We are pretty bad defensively. In fact in the game we had 6 ground balls that were scored hits (cause they could not be scored errors)  but should have been outs.  

Fielded balls where the fielder looked to the wrong base and then were too late to throw.  Wrong position covering on a steal and then the ball goes into the vacated hole.  Fist baseman guarding the line with no one on and a right-handed batter.  

Thanks for the well wishes! 

Thanks for the reply. However I would think that if the coach wanted to see more aggression, he would have used a different  phrase. For example, "if its there, give it a ride" or others, indicate an aggressive approach. The phrase, "it has to be yours", implies a more cautious approach.  

But I was not there. So I did not hear the tone or exact phrasing.

adbono posted:

coach2709 posted:

And yet here we are 5 pages later and you're still looking for the answer you want which justifies everything you did.

Let me tag onto this by saying I cant believe that a thread about ANYTHING that took place in a JV baseball game has carried on for 5 pages.

It’s not summer ball, it’s not playoffs, what did you think was going to happen? 

This thread is pretty funny.  Did anyone actually agree with the OP.  i.e. "Yes, your kid should have swung at the 3-1 borderline pitch"?  

Or was it 5 pages of the original poster arguing with literally everyone who responded?  (!)