Well, this isn't good for this young man

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

I don't accept CPLZ's assertion that only self righteous puritans could find moral implications to 5 guys having *** with two girls

I'll give you an AMEN on that...and if that makes me a self righteous puritan, I'll guess I'm right there with 90% of the country.

Firstly, we don't know that 5 guys had relations with 2 girls. That is a supposition not supported with evidence. 1 guy could have relations with 1 girl and use 5 condoms...let's wait for some facts to come out.

Secondly,
Assuming your values side with 90% of the country is a bit presumptuous, don't you think?

The Nazi's were a majority party, so history shows us that being in the majority is not a great foundation for righteousness. You have every right to your opinion, but claiming it is the majority opinion does nothing to support that it is the right opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
This young man has some immorality issues to change, that's for sure....

He wasn't arrested on morality charges. He was arrested in criminal charges. Thank you CPLZ. There's no way I could have said it better.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I see there are plenty ready to cast the first stone.

I'll wait for the result of the investigation. So far the available and public factsare less than sufficient to warrant a charge.

As to the issue of morality, I wish I had the concession on stones.

Is someone getting stoned?

CPLZ...why don't you give my post another read. I didn't render any judgment about the guilt of any of the parties involved here. My comment was strictly about the moral implications of the numbers in the example cited...that's way cross any morality line for the vast majority. To compare that to the Nazi's is a little imbalanced. Get some rest buddy.

CPLZ attacks what he doesn't understand....

Righteous puritans???????...

Now, that is hilarious....

When ever I hear of a situation like this or one where someone is accused of something like this I always try to put myself in their shoes. What if that were my son accused of something like that? What if that were my daughter?

Headlines, accusations, humiliation, etc etc etc. Can you imagine what would be going through your mind if you got that call? Can you imagine everytime you went somewhere people asking you questions? People rushing to judgement against your kid?

We have no idea what really transpired. I hope that it is all a misunderstanding and that these kids end up ok. I pray for all the parents that they will have the strength to deal with this and in the end it all works out. I do not pass judgement of people. I would hope that if I was in this same situation others would not as well.

None of our kids are perfect. None of us are. Let it play out and wait for all the facts to come in. I know one thing I have learned over the years. The people that are so quick to pass judgement on others are the first people to want others to not pass judgement on them or their loved ones. I feel bad for everyone in this the young ladies and the young men. And the families as well.

Very well said Coach May.....

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
When ever I hear of a situation like this or one where someone is accused of something like this I always try to put myself in their shoes. What if that were my son accused of something like that? What if that were my daughter?

Headlines, accusations, humiliation, etc etc etc. Can you imagine what would be going through your mind if you got that call? Can you imagine everytime you went somewhere people asking you questions? People rushing to judgement against your kid?

We have no idea what really transpired. I hope that it is all a misunderstanding and that these kids end up ok. I pray for all the parents that they will have the strength to deal with this and in the end it all works out. I do not pass judgement of people. I would hope that if I was in this same situation others would not as well.

None of our kids are perfect. None of us are. Let it play out and wait for all the facts to come in. I know one thing I have learned over the years. The people that are so quick to pass judgement on others are the first people to want others to not pass judgement on them or their loved ones. I feel bad for everyone in this the young ladies and the young men. And the families as well.

I feel bad for all parties involved. I don't want to pass judgment on anyone until all the facts are laid out and presented, so I've stayed away from this thread. My son and daughter are nineteen months apart; I tried to imagine how I'd react if our family was dealing with the same circumstances...it would be very, very hard. Coach May, nice post, I agree with everything you said.

Despite the hysteria of CPLZ, Jimmy03, and RJM, nobody threw any stones at anybody.

As near as I can tell from reading this thread, everybody has been pretty good about withholding judgment because we all seem to understand that we don't know the facts. Everyone gets this. Nobody called for any action to be taken against anyone.

The conversation went off the rails when one person suggested there is a moral dimension to the situation in addition to the legal and baseball contexts. At that point, CPLZ and his disciples started comparing people to Pharisees and Puritans and Nazis (hilariously indifferent to the vast dissimilarities among these groups).

Get some perspective, guys. Of all the dangers facing America, the one we should lose the least sleep over is the possibility we will start stoning people for morals offenses.

Nearly everyone on this site is a parent, and many of us will have to discuss this situation with our sons. When we do, we need to give them a better reason not to get in situations like this (whatever "this" turns out to have been) than that they might get thrown off a baseball team. And that better reason is called morality. Some things should be avoided regardless of whether they are legal or illegal. You generally know what these things are. You don't have to be a religious zealot to think so. And it's not casting stones or passing judgment to use this incident as a warning to guard yourself.

Swampboy, you failed to connect the bad moral decision lead to bigger problems dots. Draw the moral line where ever you want, but it's a slippery slope you put yourself on...and you're better off not being on that slippery slope at all. That's the lesson kids need to get out of this.

...edit note...I stand corrected. You did get it and I should have read your last paragraph before posting!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
CPLZ attacks what he doesn't understand....

Righteous puritans???????...

Now, that is hilarious....

I never used the phrase righteous puritans.

I used the word, "puritanical"

pu·ri·tan·i·cal (pyr-tn-kl)
adj.
1. Rigorous in religious observance; marked by stern morality.

I would say that accurately portrays your attitudes as demonstrated here.

So, for someone so zealous in their religious endeavors, doesn't mocking someone conflict with your "morals"? It would seem that threshold of morality is constantly moving...again.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Despite the hysteria of CPLZ

hys·ter·i·a (h-str-, -stîr-)
n.
1. Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

I've tried to stay pretty grounded in my responses. I fail to see anything close to hysteria exhibited by any of the people you've mentioned. Less drama is generally better, don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

Get some perspective, guys.

Stoning is a metaphor for casting aspersions and asserting some sort of moral higher ground from which to look down on lessers.

I won't speak for anyone else but I doubt I lack perspective.

What I do have in spades is plenty of patience and tolerance and hope. I'm patient enough to wait to see what comes of a potentially tragic situation with these kids, as so much is yet unknown (except to Bluedog, who just knows).

I have a lot of tolerance for people who make mistakes. I thank God each day that life ain't fair, or I'd be screwed.

I have a lot of hope. Hope that people, especially me, will find more patience, tolerance and common ground and fewer reasons to disparage others.

Is being intolerant of intolerance a bad thing?

quote:

Headlines, accusations, humiliation, etc etc etc. Can you imagine what would be going through your mind if you got that call? Can you imagine everytime you went somewhere people asking you questions? People rushing to judgement against your kid?

Through friends I casually know one of the families involved in the Duke situation. The dad said his son now goes through life as ***** ****** accused rapist, even though it never happened and the charges were dropped.

.

Here is a portion of CPLZ's first post in this thread...

"We'll have to see how it unravels."

This is really all we can do. We should pay attention as to how this case unravels because we should use it as an example to teach our own kids.

Regardless of our moral stance on what has been reported I know all of us have one major thing in common...keeping our kids out of trouble.

We don't know what the outcome is going to be so we will have to wait to tailor our opportunity to teach both our sons and daughters to avoid getting tangled up in a mess like this.

It is a sad situation. As RJM posted concerning the Duke lacrosse team, there likely will be no winners regardless of the truth of the matter. All the more reason for our kids to learn how to avoid getting caught up in something similar.

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Great post CPLZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Great post CPLZ.

Actually, it was a totally incoherent post.

Randomly selected dictionary definition that shows he doesn't understand how a term was used . . . out of context quote . . . ignored theme and substance of what he was purportedly responding to . . . misunderstands the metaphors he uses . . . falsely accuses others of trying to claim a moral high ground for simply pointing out that morals matter . . . claiming for himself the moral high ground of "tolerance" while comparing those who disagree with him to puritans and nazis (yeah, THAT's tolerant).

Got a question for you, CPLZ. Since you don't accept any concept of morals, what is your basis for asserting that "tolerance" is a virtue and being so eager to claim it for yourself and accuse others of lacking it? Why is your self righteous attitude about tolerance okay, but other people's less evident self-righteousness about morals not okay?

Re-read the thread. With your smug put-downs of traditional concepts of morality and broad denunciations of the religious basis for them, you're the guy who showed the most intolerance and tried hardest to stake out a higher moral ground for himself.

I do like your idea of promoting "patience, tolerance, and common ground and fewer reasons to disparage others." When do you plan to start?

Hey guys, pray for the girls, pray for the boys, really pray for the families...Do we really care about this sitution to the extent of three pages of sniping with people we mostly share great ideas and resources with?

The legal system will sort this out. It will not be good for anyone.

Lets let it not be bad for us.

"This is really all we can do. We should pay attention as to how this case unravels because we should use it as an example to teach our own kids."

"Regardless of our moral stance on what has been reported I know all of us have one major thing in common...keeping our kids out of trouble."

"We don't know what the outcome is going to be so we will have to wait to tailor our oppportunity to teach both our sons and daughters to avoid getting tangled up in a mess like this."

I thought that was a great post. I still do.

This could be a case of no innocents... from the chaperon of the girls all the way through.

The perfect storm so to speak.

Here's CPLZ's correctly quoted post.

I added the emphasis that seems to have been missed.

quote:

I have a lot of hope. Hope that people, especially me , will find more patience, tolerance and common ground and fewer reasons to disparage others.

And, I suspect that the issue at hand evolved much like this thread.............

quote:

"This is really all we can do. We should pay attention as to how this case unravels because we should use it as an example to teach our own kids."

What lesson would that be that we should teach our own kids on, coach?

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
. . . falsely accuses others of trying to claim a moral high ground for simply pointing out that morals matter . . . claiming for himself the moral high ground of "tolerance" while comparing those who disagree with him to puritans and nazis (yeah, THAT's tolerant).

Got a question for you, CPLZ. Since you don't accept any concept of morals, what is your basis for asserting that "tolerance" is a virtue and being so eager to claim it for yourself and accuse others of lacking it? Why is your self righteous attitude about tolerance okay, but other people's less evident self-righteousness about morals not okay?

In spite of the observation that it seems you are itching for a fight in this, I'll answer as best I can, without being baited by the goading.

Your assumption that I don't accept any concept of morals is incorrect. I don't accept the concept that someone elses morality should be put out as the only right. Ethics and morals are individual and should be kept that way. I have standards, ethics and morals. In most cases I choose to keep those to myself. What they are is right for me. Doesn't make them right or wrong, just makes me, me. My intolerance is for others that think they have the right to judge morality. That is what happened when Bluedog said...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
This young man has some immorality issues to change, that's for sure....

That is why I posed the question, is being intolerant of intolerance a bad thing.

I claim no higher moral ground because I don't measure mine against anyone elses...but that's been done here by others. All I did was state that I have patience, tolerance and hope.

Twisting what a person says is usually a sign of argumentative desperation. I never compared a person to Nazi's. I used the absurd example of Nazi's being right by being the majority to show the absurdity of using being part of the majority to be right. It also seems that you are trying to portray the use of the word puritanical to some negative connotation. It is not. It is expressive of a person, and was accurate. You have not been around very long. Bluedog has. The use of the word puritanical is no more negative than the word nondenominational. They are simply expressive, but you don't want to see that, you want to use them to fuel some non existent fire.

I doubt you'll actually take what I've said in the context it is meant, because you've yet to do that. I'd suggest picking another target to fight with, because I don't bait that well.

In spite of what I believe, I hope that I am wrong, and you and I can discuss and behave more civilly and without so much venom.

Have a happy new year.

That was CPLZ's quote not mine I am sure he can explain what he meant by that. For me situations like this can always be used to teach others. And even teach yourself. But until the facts come out we will just have to wait and see what we are really dealing with.

Fair enough, coach. I didn't realize you were quoting CPLZ. The courts will handle this matter, so I don't much care about commenting on it.

My whole point is there should be something to learn from this REGARDLESS of how the legal system plays out. If you wait to learn from this based on what the legal system says, you're teaching kids to live on the edge of the razor blade....not a good strategy, in my opinion as it will eventually cut you.

Take away the term "morals" that got everyone in a tizzy. What do we teach our kids about a situation like this so they can apply it with a better outcome if ever encountered? That's the point.

Well, to avoid a holy war, I'll avoid references to Scripture, which even non-Christians accept as a source of some worthy ethical considerations, and I won't launch into the moral relativism of determining ethics on a personal level as opposed to outside sources of some nature, but I'll just leave it here:

This thread has been beaten to within an inch of its life, so have a Happy New Year one and all, let's hope for more great baseball at all levels in 2011...and we all agree we hope that nobody's son or daughter ends up in such a sad situation, but we all hope for a fair outcome for all concerned...whatever we perceive "fair" to mean.

H-1

Guess there is nothing anyone can do about it, but I wish these things could be kept out of the media until the smoke clears.

Sometimes accusations and assumptions all by themself is all it takes to devastate people, even the innocent. There's plenty of time to hang someone after they are proven guilty.

The title of this thread is so true... "Well, this isn't good for this young man"... No matter what happens now!

Time to de-escalate.

CPLZ, I'm not itching for a fight.

I like you . . . You posted a very helpful answer to one of my first posts on this site many months ago. I still appreciate that.

I respect you . . . You raised a son who is playing ball for an institution I greatly admire while he prepares for a dangerous and honorable profession. You obviously did a lot of things right.

I've learned from you . . . A lot of your posts were helpful as I stumbled through the recruiting process.

I'm a little bit jealous of you . . . You have a totally awesome boat.

I reacted as I did because I thought the way you cut off the poster who mentioned morals was too harsh and because the way you characterized all religious based moral systems as exercises in self-righteousness attacked the sincerity of literally billions of people. In so doing, you did a disservice to the multitudes of people who turn to religion precisely because they understand their lack of righteousness--and these people are usually the most tolerant folks you can ever meet.

Also, I think our discussion of this incident with our kids needs to give them more than a utilitarian reason for staying away from potentially bad situations. They need to understand that the most important consequences of their moral decisions are not whether they get arrested or thrown off a team--the most important consequences are what kind of men they become as a result of their moral choices. That's a conversation we could profitably have without knowing the facts of the Bahamas situation, but your responses precluded such a conversation.

I'm on this site to talk about baseball--not religion, not politics.

I'd happily return to our regularly scheduled programming.

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"This thread has been beaten to within an inch of its life..."

What? I should put these away? Eh?





.

quote:

I don't accept the concept that someone elses morality should be put out as the only right.

I accept God's laws as the only right way......

You have free will given to you by God to believe what you want.....There are moral issues in this case.....You can ignore them all you want.....The fact is, the moral issue does matter....It's very important!

Swampboy,

All topics are fair game here, not just baseball...and you should see my fast tournament boat!

I'm glad that you are fair minded enough to be able to separate topics and not paint people with a broad brush as all good or all bad. That's quite admirable...I need to practice that more myself rather than taking the easy way out.

Dang it Woody put those paddles away!

Happy New Year, CPLZ.

(And truth be told, I probably enjoy sparring more than I should.)

Guys very classy of both of you. I have grown to really respect CPLZ over the years. We have had a few battles back in the day but I always respected his points of view. And CPLZ make sure your son knows how much we appreciate his service to our country and how much he is respected for what he does. Swampboy very classy post by you as well and I have really enjoyed your posts.

Happy New Year guys , God Bless.

There I go again. E6

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Whaddya' think Coach...these will work better?



Not that we're there, but we don't want to be up that certain creek (crick) without these!



.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I don't accept the concept that someone elses morality should be put out as the only right.

I accept God's laws as the only right way......

You share a great deal in common with another group of individuals who have been on the news a lot lately. Perhaps you've heard of them?...The Taliban.

Those may come in handy Woody. Keep them around.

.

Ok...does everyone have a plug? On the count of three pull!



1...2...3!


-30-

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Don't step in the dog poop, cplz.

quote:

Sliding scale arguments, especially those fraught with interpretive value, like the bible,......

This comment tells me you are Bible illiterate....You are trying to make valid a point you are not qualified to do......And, it can't be done, anyway...But, you don't know that...

You may not even know the Taliban aren't Bible believers....