BREAKING: Houston Astros GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch have been suspended for one year after an MLB investigation found the team used technology to cheat during its World Series-winning 2017 season, sources familiar with the punishment tell ESPN.
Additionally, MLB will fine the Astros $5 million and take away their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts, sources tell ESPN.
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Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
Wow. This kind of punishment may change behavior. Losing 1st and 2nd picks for two years... That will set a team back.
Thank you commish, may I have another!
Deterrence. A good first step. Losing four almost sure MLB players should send a message.
Not only losing the draft picks, but the slot money that they would then be able to "upgrade" their later picks will hurt just as bad.
Jeff Passan is reporting on Twitter that his sources are saying Alex Cora is next and punishment will be "severe".
Wow, indeed.
Astros have fired the GM and manager.
The shoes keep dropping.
The penalties seem about right. Except maybe for this:
"While the scheme to steal signs and relay them to batters by banging on a garbage can was 'player-driven,' MLB commissioner Rob Manfred wrote in a nine-page summary of the investigation, no players were disciplined -- including New York Mets manager Carlos Beltran, who played for the 2017 Astros and was implicated by Manfred as one of the players involved in decoding signs." https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-fired-sign-stealing
I get that there is a collective bargaining agreement that (probably--I don't know) severely limits the punishments the league can impose on players, but this seems wrong. As an institutional matter, teams now have a real incentive to stop players from engaging in prohibited forms of sign-stealing. But the players themselves have literally zero reason to try to comply with the rules. Maybe the technology required means players won't be able to do this kind of thing without help from, or at least the knowledge of, management... Maybe. But should the players involved in this activity face no penalties at all?
Slap on the wrist. Very disappointing.
22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
RossGA posted:Slap on the wrist. Very disappointing.
Other than a lifetime ban, what more could Manfred have done? The $5M fine is trivial, but I have read that is the largest the relevant rules allowed.
Luhnow and Hinch may or may not get hired right away by another team next year—that will be interesting. But a one-year ban seems like a hefty penalty. And for the organization to lose its top two picks for two years is going to sting.
hshuler posted:22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
hshuler, that may be premature (unless you have read something I missed; which is entirely possible). It sure sounds like Cora is going to be penalized--probably for his conduct with the Astros. But I thought the Red Sox investigation was ongoing?
I don't think it's a slap on the wrist. More harsh than I expected. It feels like pretty close to the max penalties allowed
Chico Escuela posted:hshuler posted:22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
hshuler, that may be premature (unless you have read something I missed; which is entirely possible). It sure sounds like Cora is going to be penalized--probably for his conduct with the Astros. But I thought the Red Sox investigation was ongoing?
I should have said no proof of the Red Sox cheating as of yet.
Wow, this is harsh. I wonder if MLB has determined that this was limited to the Astros (and maybe Red Sox). Could get messy if additional allegations about other clubs start leaking out.
I’m pretty sure the Astros anticipated harsh penalties. I know a few kids who are potential top two round draft prospects and the only team that hasn’t done a home visit with them is the Astros.
Here's something I don't understand: MLB found the Astros stole signs in 2017 and won the World Series. But the cheating was supposedly limited to that year. So, team cheats and wins it all, then decides to stop cheating... because it worked too well the prior year??? That is the part I wonder about--is MLB trying to do damage control by limiting this to a single season?
[Or the year after Cora left, the Astros' cheating stopped, and the Red Sox won the WS. But nobody tried to cheat in 2019. Because it worked too well for two years in a row,]
This is far worse than what led to a lifetime ban for Coppoella (spelling?). I thing a lifetime ban for Cora, Luhnow, Hinch and Beltran should be a minimum. Vacate the 2017 WS title all players return the rings. Players need penalties. If you participated, your contract and service time are void and you can go back in the draft. Now this won't happen again. Not sure if anything can be done on the fine, but $ 5 million per trash can bang would have been better. We are talking about the integrity of the game and the message we are sending to kids. Needed more than a slap on the wrist.
Chico Escuela posted:Here's something I don't understand: MLB found the Astros stole signs in 2017 and won the World Series. But the cheating was supposedly limited to that year. So, team cheats and wins it all, then decides to stop cheating... because it worked too well the prior year??? That is the part I wonder about--is MLB trying to do damage control by limiting this to a single season?
[Or the year after Cora left, the Astros' cheating stopped, and the Red Sox won the WS. But nobody tried to cheat in 2019. Because it worked too well for two years in a row,]
Yeah - my thought exactly...I think that they are trying to draw scope by defining cheating to mean electronic surveillance and real time notification....otherwise there are probably too many potential cases to punish.
A disturbing continuation of integrity issues with our game the last 25 years -
... exciting record-breaking season HR battle between Sosa and McGuire... oh wait, never mind. They both cheated. Yet, the numbers stand. A few years later, Bonds shatters that HR record as well as the all time career HR record... oh wait, he cheated too.. but the numbers stand. Last year, HR's hit at record pace... oh wait, the balls are different. The Astro's show signs of a modern day dynasty... oh wait... and the world series trophies remain in the case.
Of course, go back a little ways further... All time hits leader Pete Rose took amphetamines and had a major gambling problem, including betting on MLB baseball games while managing MLB baseball games. And on and on... It's starting to become more difficult for even us most ardent supporters of the game to see it as America's Pastime.
Comment from manfred. He applauds the analytics and player dev juggernaut the luhnow regime created but also says that they have been problematic in their dealing with employees, media and other teams.
https://twitter.com/lindseyadl...800234526986241?s=09
Also interesting (not in this post) that apparently luhnow wanted to draft heimlich but was talked out of (probably by owner).
cabbagedad posted:A disturbing continuation of integrity issues with our game the last 25 years -
... exciting record-breaking season HR battle between Sosa and McGuire... oh wait, never mind. They both cheated. Yet, the numbers stand. A few years later, Bonds shatters that HR record as well as the all time career HR record... oh wait, he cheated too.. but the numbers stand. Last year, HR's hit at record pace... oh wait, the balls are different. The Astro's show signs of a modern day dynasty... oh wait... and the world series trophies remain in the case.
Of course, go back a little ways further... All time hits leader Pete Rose took amphetamines and had a major gambling problem, including betting on MLB baseball games while managing MLB baseball games. And on and on... It's starting to become more difficult for even us most ardent supporters of the game to see it as America's Pastime.
I think if you went back to the very beginning of the game you could find reference to the moral decay within baseball written in some paper at any given point in history. Some of the games most prominent heros from the past were drunks, adulterers, criminals and just down right mean people. The Black Sox scandal was 100 years ago and there has been plenty of good and bad both before and since. There are players from every possible walk of American life throughout the game's history and they all bring their own moral compass to the ballpark. You can't get much more American than that......
The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
It will be interesting to see whether Cora gets a harsher punishment as a two-time offender (if he is one). I also am wondering if a year from now, when the suspensions are over, Luhnow's and Hinch's services (Cora's, too) are in the same kind of high demand they would have enjoyed pre-scandal, or if there is some kind of lingering stain on their reputations.
PED users did see varying hits to their marketability and legacies--although a lot of that was because after they were busted, teams were concerned about how well they could play without a chemical boost. Luhnow, Hinch and Cora all are still very talented baseball guys, even without the aid of clanging trash can lids, so my bet is they pick up pretty much as though nothing happened. And that may be perfectly reasonable, since at that point they will have paid their proverbial debt to society (or to MLB) by serving their sentences.
What about the players? Bregman, Altuve, Betts, etc. are still great, but you really have to wonder whether they ought to have an asterisk beside the 2017 or 2018 seasons. (Yeah, I have heard Houston's team batting average was higher in away games in 2017. I still say knowing when a breaking pitch was coming during home games would have been a major advantage for an MLB hitter. Obviously the teams thought so, too, since they were willing to cheat for that edge.)
And it sucks to be the Dodgers. To think the same team lost the WS in both tainted seasons.
RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
Oh, Cora's screwed. I'd love to see Varitek get some consideration as a replacement from the front office. Who you got, RJM?
I think it's a light punishment. The draft picks hurt and that was warranted, I mean more in regards to Hinch and the staff behind the operation. By coming down with a suspension the MLB is saying they can prove he was in on the cheating. They can prove he was cheating which led to a World Series - but he only gets a year? That is what seems light to me. I'm not sure what Luhnow's involvement was, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was just collateral.
This will change the Astros organization for the next 10 years. When all their homegrown guys come up in contract years they will not be able to resign knowing they have 4 less elite prospects in their system. Expect the current young guys to be dished for draft picks near the end of their contracts. Whoever takes over at GM is going to have his work cut out and a tough career ahead of him, especially when you start down 4 top prospects and have to sign a bunch of guys who can get their money anywhere. I would imagine they would draft high school heavy to rebuild down the line or college heavy to salvage what they have and get those guys up while the studs are still around (Bregman, Correa, etc.). That is what I would expect at least.
Well, I for one, am so glad all the emphasis on spin rate, pitch design and analytics were successful against a garbage can and a video camera to steal signs....
What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
RossGA posted:This is far worse than what led to a lifetime ban for Coppoella (spelling?). I thing a lifetime ban for Cora, Luhnow, Hinch and Beltran should be a minimum. Vacate the 2017 WS title all players return the rings. Players need penalties. If you participated, your contract and service time are void and you can go back in the draft. Now this won't happen again. Not sure if anything can be done on the fine, but $ 5 million per trash can bang would have been better. We are talking about the integrity of the game and the message we are sending to kids. Needed more than a slap on the wrist.
I agree. Everyone on the team was in on it, including Bregman, Springer, Verlander, etc. All of them cheated. All of them knew they were cheating. All of them should pay a price - at a minimum return the rings and refund their bonuses. Just disgraceful.
fenwaysouth posted:RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
Oh, Cora's screwed. I'd love to see Varitek get some consideration as a replacement from the front office. Who you got, RJM?
Roenicke ... He has prior managing experience. Or, since the Sox don’t seem to be putting together a team that can compete maybe pull a fan out of the seats each game and give him a shot. Win and you coach tomorrow. Lose and you’re done.
hshuler posted:I’m pretty sure the Astros anticipated harsh penalties. I know a few kids who are potential top two round draft prospects and the only team that hasn’t done a home visit with them is the Astros.
This may have more to do with the fact that we were told the Astros are phasing out scouts and going on analytics and video. Regardless, I think the 4 picks will hurt them and I think this (cheating) is probably going on to varying degrees a lot more than we think.
PABaseball posted:I think it's a light punishment. The draft picks hurt and that was warranted,....
I don't think this was light punishment. I think this was FAIR punishment to the organization and field mgt who were in on it. Definitely the draft picks and the suspensions got everybody's attention in an MLB front office.
The punishment was too light/non-existent on the players that carried this out. These are grown men who knew what they were doing. Agree 100% with Chico that this bothers me. The MLB is going to look the other way on the players? Seriously? I don't get this part of the MLB punishment decision.
Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
TPM posted:Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
Serious question (no sarcasm intended): Do you believe Luhnow didn't know this was going on? Even after the Red Sox were fined in 2017 and Manfred warned teams that he would take future offenses very seriously?
I assume Luhnow spent very little, if any, time in the dugout during games. But he seems very much the kind of guy who would be a hands-on sort of manager. I admit to knowing precious little about the facts or about Luhnow's day-to-day activities, but it's hard for me to believe he was completely in the dark about this (unless maybe he chose to be--which is no defense IMO).
Chico Escuela posted:TPM posted:Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
Serious question (no sarcasm intended): Do you believe Luhnow didn't know this was going on? Even after the Red Sox were fined in 2017 and Manfred warned teams that he would take future offenses very seriously?
I assume Luhnow spent very little, if any, time in the dugout during games. But he seems very much the kind of guy who would be a hands-on sort of manager. I admit to knowing precious little about the facts or about Luhnow's day-to-day activities, but it's hard for me to believe he was completely in the dark about this (unless maybe he chose to be--which is no defense IMO).
Luhnow drafted son when he was with the Cardinals, so there is a connection there for me.
GMs don't spend time in the dugout. They have people that leave the day to day management of the team to others.
The commissioner did not implicate him in the crime.
I don't believe he was aware of what was going on. Never appeared to be a look the other way kind of person.
TPM & Chico,
So, I'm assuming the commish's message to all MLB GM's is you better know what is going on in your dugout. Ignorance is not bliss. If there is something going on, you better do something about it. While he did not implicate him directly he certainly held him accountable.
