Wow - Astros penalty is out

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

Is it just me, or has everyone else had it “up to here” with cheating and cheaters? If it’s not people buying their ways into schools or on to rosters, it’s players/teams cheating at a systemic rate. It’s trash cans, video cameras, perhaps buzzers and PEDs. 

I for one and sick of this crap and would like to see teams receive an ultimatum. If the team is caught cheating to win games, the organization will not be scheduled to play in the following season. THE ENTIRE SEASON. Impacts the owners, impacts the players who are part of the cheating, and impacts those who do not cheat. Hopefully the pressure on the cheaters on the club from the non-cheaters to not mess with their livelihoods would have an impact. A full year of team revenue would certainly catch their attention.

just sick of this...

Do you think it would help if the commissioner’s office would clearly outline what the punishment is for every major infraction?

Coppolella got a lifetime ban for multiple violations in the international market but many feel like the Astros scandal was worse. 

My thought is if you state what the penalty would be for every major infraction, that may make folks think twice about cheating. I know that everything isn’t black and white but drug violations have set penalties. 

HShuler, it would be a start. I am just at the point now, with a D1 baseball player in my household, that I have reached the end of my rope with the cheating. My son plays clean, trains clean and works hard to do things the right way. If by doing that we are now less likely to move on in baseball, so be it. But what kind of message is baseball, both MLB commissioner’s office and players who cheat, sending the next generations of baseball players if there is no accountability for cheaters in the game? Are we simply going to rely on baseball writers not putting these guys into Cooperstown as their only punishment? 

We aren’t being strong enough on PED use. Get caught once, lifetime ban. Period. Sounds draconian but that will stop it. Violate league rules in order to gain a competitive advantage? One year suspension for the entire organization. That will fix that behavior. Create a new way to cheat that gets caught? Commissioner decides punishment and it gets written into league rules from that point forward.

I’m waiting for these type of scandals to work their way into college baseball...because the college game, with its big salaries for top team coaches and the TV revenue will undoubtedly end up corrupting the college game too. This needs to stop!

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

 

I’m waiting for these type of scandals to work their way into college baseball...because the college game, with its big salaries for top team coaches and the TV revenue will undoubtedly end up corrupting the college game too. This needs to stop!

CBRG - I had the exact same thought yesterday as I was driving 2.5 hours...what impact could this have on college baseball?  Sign stealing has been in baseball a long time.  I'm talking about a few guys in the dugout trying to crack the other teams signs through human "mental horsepower", NOT cameras in centerfield or buzzers on their chest.  My son, along with a couple other pitchers were those guys in the dugout trying to break the other teams code.   He was very good at it.   Honestly, I think it is a way for a player to stay in the game when he's not in the lineup.   In my mind, there is a clear delineation of what is acceptable (using your eyes and mind) versus unacceptable (cameras, algorithms and computers) in stealing signs.  

I love college baseball, and I'd hate to see it ruined by the professional game.   The NCAA would be well served by observing how MLB handles this, then adding some well written guidelines to their rules.     

As always, JMO.

hshuler posted:

Say it ain’t so! I’m crushed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoSj1GaIIsU

LMAO

I may be wrong, but I believe that the NCAA cleaned up college baseball years ago, in more ways than one.  But, I can't speak for other NCAA sports.  There are rules and you can find them on NCAA.com, as well as some conferences have their own expectations.

A huge part of the  HC's job of each program  is to set and preach goals and expectations of the  individual as well as the team. Remember, their primary job is to help the players to become responsible adults and citizens as well as making sure they graduate, on time, not churn out future pro players.  There are exceptions to this philosophy.

Stealing signs is part of the game, and more than likely will remain so. For really good coaches, it's not hard to crack the code.  

Players are  drug tested when they come into the program and at times during the season, and during regionals. You also can't play if you don't make the academic requirements.

That's why I am an advocate of the college experience. Values and priorities are different than professional baseball.

JMO

Could go back to the days of old where the batter would request a pitch in a certain location and not have to worry about sign stealing...

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/10-bi...lls-past/c-124363454

It ain't cheatin' 'til ya get caught. Every one of those players will not only live with the cheating stigma, but they'll also have targets because for those that (claim that they) didn't cheat - retribution is testosterone's answer to losing out on the possibility of big Benjamin's.  Whether it's a HBP, a hard slide, or something else - do the umpires or MLB look the other way when it does happen. I would think Darvish wants to bury a FB in some ribs right about now...

FoxDad posted:

Texas1836 posted:

Go44dad posted:

hshuler posted:

Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

Orioles need some help

Yeah, Lots of help.   From the top down.

Breaking news! According to internet sources, O's implicated on sign stealing!!!

However no penalty is being handed out. Management drafted an illiterate camera operator due to having 20/15 vision when being scouted  

ps - that was just a joke and I was just bored, lol

^^^^Now that is funny.  I thought the penalty might be that the City of Baltimore & MLB is going to shutdown Boogs BBQ and encourage Peter Angelos to stick around longer with financial incentives.  Now that would truly be painful! 

I love Camden Yards. I can buy a $10 standing room ticket and sit in the front roooooow. It’s part of my Sox traveling season ticket package. For the last few seasons the Sox have played the O’s and Phillies within a week. Eating at Boog’s cost more than the game. 

I wonder how many years will go by before an Astros position player will be voted into the All-Star game?

Go44dad posted:

I wonder how many years will go by before an Astros position player will be voted into the All-Star game?

However many years it takes to get rid of the current cheaters. I’d vote for any deserving Astro that was not on 2017-2019 rosters. Some of those players have moved on. No matter what team they’re on, they don’t deserve All-Star status.  It’s not all about the Astros. It’s about the cheating. 

A fan compiled analysis of Astros cheating:  http://signstealingscandal.com/

Am I the only one who finds the Red Sox decision to hire Roenicke as (interim) manager really strange?  I know he's z well-respected baseball guy (but so were Cora, Hinch and Beltran).  And I know nothing about the man's character.  BUT, wasn't he bench coach under Cora in 2018 when the Sox allegedly cheated? 

OK, MLB hasn't issued any findings about 2018 yet; but unless Manfred tipped off Red Sox management, I would think they have to act on the assumption some kind of punishment is coming soon.  And if that happens, Roenicke almost certainly would be tainted (whether or not he were punished).  Why not pick someone from outside the organization?

The rumors are the penalties on the Sox will be light. It’s turning out Cora wasn’t the brains behind the Astro’s cheating. So ...

1) Hiring Roenicke maintains some sense of continuity heading into the season. He’s only the interim manager. It allows ...

2) Bloom to take his time finding a manager that fits for his direction, or ...

3) Cora is back next year after a suspension. 

RJM posted:

The rumors are the penalties on the Sox will be light. It’s turning out Cora wasn’t the brains behind the Astro’s cheating. So ...

1) Hiring Roenicke maintains some sense of continuity heading into the season. He’s only the interim manager. It allows ...

2) Bloom to take his time finding a manager that fits for his direction, or ...

3) Cora is back next year after a suspension. 

Cora's not coming back to the Sox.  Rosenthal/Drelich published another article in the Athletic today. While pointing the biggest finger at Beltran, Cora and Astros front office get pointed at also.  As far as brains, no argument on Beltran and Cora lacking, based on their actions.  Here are a few excerpts.

...In that context, Beltrán, along with former bench coach Alex Cora, became a driving force behind the trash-can banging system that marked a culmination of the Astros’ use of electronics to steal signs illegally.

“What happened was Cora and Beltrán decided that this video room stuff Koch-Weser was doing (with Codebreaker) was just not working, inefficient, too slow,” a person with direct knowledge of the investigation said. “They just had some lower-level guy put up this monitor and did it themselves.”

RJM posted:

The rumors are the penalties on the Sox will be light. It’s turning out Cora wasn’t the brains behind the Astro’s cheating. So ...

1) Hiring Roenicke maintains some sense of continuity heading into the season. He’s only the interim manager. It allows ...

2) Bloom to take his time finding a manager that fits for his direction, or ...

3) Cora is back next year after a suspension. 

Unless it turns out the Sox did very little cheating (which is possible), then Roenicke seems like damaged goods to me.  He may not have participated in the cheating, but he presumably would have known it was happening--and did nothing.  That might not warrant discipline in a world where players who actively participate get zero punishment; but Roenicke wouldn't be kicked upstairs in the wake of a cheating scandal?  That would be hard to stomach.

The more I think about it, the more I think Manfred has let the Sox know they are at least mostly in the clear.  I can't imagine Boston would want to run the risk that a few weeks after naming Roenicke they would have to fire him.  (And if the team faces any kind of serious sanctions, then I still say promoting Roenicke to manager would be a terrible symbol for MLB.)

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

The rumors are the penalties on the Sox will be light. It’s turning out Cora wasn’t the brains behind the Astro’s cheating. So ...

1) Hiring Roenicke maintains some sense of continuity heading into the season. He’s only the interim manager. It allows ...

2) Bloom to take his time finding a manager that fits for his direction, or ...

3) Cora is back next year after a suspension. 

Unless it turns out the Sox did very little cheating (which is possible), then Roenicke seems like damaged goods to me.  He may not have participated in the cheating, but he presumably would have known it was happening--and did nothing.  That might not warrant discipline in a world where players who actively participate get zero punishment; but Roenicke wouldn't be kicked upstairs in the wake of a cheating scandal?  That would be hard to stomach.

The more I think about it, the more I think Manfred has let the Sox know they are at least mostly in the clear.  I can't imagine Boston would want to run the risk that afew weeks after naming Roenicke they would have to fire him.  (And if the team faces any kind of serious sanctions, then I still say promoting Roenicke to manager would be a terrible symbol for MLB.)

Roenicke will not be the manager next year. He’s been officially named as an interim. It would be hard at this point for Bloom to find the candidates he really wants. An interim manager buys him a year. Plus, the team isn’t having a stranger thrown at them the week spring training starts.

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

 

 

Roenicke will not be the manager next year. He’s been officially named as an interim. It would be hard at this point for Bloom to find the candidates he really wants. An interim manager buys him a year. Plus, the team isn’t having a stranger thrown at them the week spring training starts.

I admit I'm surprised you don't see troubled by this, RJM.  I think I recall you mentioning a few weeks ago that you thought Roenicke was a good candidate to replace Cora (?).  I can understand that you might like Roenicke as a coach.  But if we assume the Red Sox are about to be penalized for using electronic means to steal signs, how can they promote the guy who was bench coach while those infractions were going on?  I'm not suggesting Roenicke ought to be forever banned from managing again (though depending on what the facts show, I'm not saying he shouldn't either).  But he shouldn't manage in Boston in the same year they are (presumably) going to face sanctions for violations that seem to have happened right in front of Roenicke in the 2018 Sox dugout.

As for getting a new manager right before spring training:  The Astros were in the same boat--one of the after effects of cheating.  For the Red Sox to complain that they don't want the disruption of an outside manager hired in February is a bit like the proverbial defendant who murdered both his parents then asked the court for mercy because he was an orphan.

The word is the penalties will be light on the Sox. Roenicke may not be involved. He’s a good short term replacement. But he’s in his 60’s. In the long run Bloom is going to want his own guy. 

This topic doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. I'm surprised how many players are speaking out. Even MLB golden boy Mike Trout gave his opinion! Seems that the comments recently made by the Astro's just made thing worse.

Got me wondering ??? 2020 might set the record for the most pitchers getting ejected. One piece of advise for the Astro's, don't dig in. I'm not a fortuneteller, but I can predict a lot of "it just slipped" pitches being thrown. 

Reluctant, totally agree!  And Correa's comments about not wanting to talk about it anymore just made me fume.  You don't get to decide when to stop talking about being a cheater! And I think it's going to get ugly early in the season.  Manfred needs to strap on some balls and punish the players. Otherwise, there's no real incentive to not cheat. Ugh, not really teaching the young fans how to play the game the right way.

I do not advocate pitchers intentionally trying to hit fellow players with 95+ mph projectiles that are capable of causing death or serious injury.  But...  it is going to be a little hard to swallow when (as seems inevitable) someone gets suspended for hitting a member of the Astros 2017 roster with a pitch, since that Astros player will incur no penalties of any kind for his role in the sign stealing scheme.  Manfred is in a no-win situation here.

fenwaysouth posted:

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

 

I’m waiting for these type of scandals to work their way into college baseball...because the college game, with its big salaries for top team coaches and the TV revenue will undoubtedly end up corrupting the college game too. This needs to stop!

CBRG - I had the exact same thought yesterday as I was driving 2.5 hours...what impact could this have on college baseball?  Sign stealing has been in baseball a long time.  I'm talking about a few guys in the dugout trying to crack the other teams signs through human "mental horsepower", NOT cameras in centerfield or buzzers on their chest.  My son, along with a couple other pitchers were those guys in the dugout trying to break the other teams code.   He was very good at it.   Honestly, I think it is a way for a player to stay in the game when he's not in the lineup.   In my mind, there is a clear delineation of what is acceptable (using your eyes and mind) versus unacceptable (cameras, algorithms and computers) in stealing signs.  

I love college baseball, and I'd hate to see it ruined by the professional game.   The NCAA would be well served by observing how MLB handles this, then adding some well written guidelines to their rules.     

As always, JMO.

It’s already having an effect. Pitchers and catchers with wristbands. Coach feeding signs. I hate it. 

Chico Escuela posted:

I do not advocate pitchers intentionally trying to hit fellow players with 95+ mph projectiles that are capable of causing death or serious injury.  But...  it is going to be a little hard to swallow when (as seems inevitable) someone gets suspended for hitting a member of the Astros 2017 roster with a pitch, since that Astros player will incur no penalties of any kind for his role in the sign stealing scheme.  Manfred is in a no-win situation here.

Manfred created this situation 😡

Manfred has overwhelmingly failed in his handling of this.  So did Tony Clark.  None of this is a surprise as neither one is qualified for the job they are in.  

Kimb27 posted:

Reluctant, totally agree!  And Correa's comments about not wanting to talk about it anymore just made me fume.  You don't get to decide when to stop talking about being a cheater! And I think it's going to get ugly early in the season.  Manfred needs to strap on some balls and punish the players. Otherwise, there's no real incentive to not cheat. Ugh, not really teaching the young fans how to play the game the right way.

Manfred can’t punish the players. He gave them immunity to talk. If he goes back on his word he loses credibility with the MLBPA.

This deal keeps getting bigger. The outrage is universal in the sport of baseball. I just had a text conversation with a college teammate who is now an MLB scout w/ the Diamondbacks. But in 2017 he was an Astros scout and was one of 6 scouts that got fired right before the World Series so the Astros wouldn’t have to buy rings for them. His comment about all this was, “Its like Christmas. This couldn’t happen to a bunch of worse people.”  Karma is a real thing. 

Once you are convicted in the court of public opinion you are screwed. 

adbono posted:

This deal keeps getting bigger. The outrage is universal in the sport of baseball. I just had a text conversation with a college teammate who is now an MLB scout w/ the Diamondbacks. But in 2017 he was an Astros scout and was one of 6 scouts that got fired right before the World Series so the Astros wouldn’t have to buy rings for them. His comment about all this was, “Its like Christmas. This couldn’t happen to a bunch of worse people.”  Karma is a real thing. 

It's gotten bigger than baseball.  LeBron just tweeted his opinion of this ("...if someone cheated me out of winning the title and I found out about it I would be F*^king irate!...")

Manfred created this.  He should have never given immunity to players who admit cheating.  He's got to find a way to make this right or he's got to go.  I don't see how baseball moves forward to opening day with this hanging over it.

I listened to Manfred’s interview tonight on MLB radio. I’m shocked a guy like him is in that role. He is very weak and lacks any assertiveness whatsoever. If the owners hired him just to have a guy they can push around, well they nailed it then. The fear and uncertainty in his voice was awkward coming from someone in his position. 

The most surprising revelation for me was that Manfred's player immunity deal was moot because of the current CBA, the players could not be prosceuted/persecuted for the cheating. It was on MLBN, is that really true?

2022NYC - Seems to be the case.  MLBPA said that no player would cooperate with the investigation unless all players received immunity, according to Manfred.  The job of the PA is to protect and support ML players (not sure if it is also supposed to protect MiLB players) so they were doing what they are supposed to do.  However, protecting current players can be detrimental to the game of baseball and to future ML players.  Yes, the PA can damage the game and may have done so in this instance.

Guys on the radio this morning pointed out that players who say that Astros cheaters should have been punished need to talk to their union.  Union is the reason they are not being punished.  Who or what does the union represent?

2022NYC posted:

The most surprising revelation for me was that Manfred's player immunity deal was moot because of the current CBA, the players could not be prosceuted/persecuted for the cheating. It was on MLBN, is that really true?

I wondered the same thing. Not to put too much stock in the labor law musings of baseball guys, but on MLB radio the past couple of days they have insisted that the current collective bargaining agreement would have made it almost impossible for MLB to win a grievance filed by a player who was disciplined for the sign-stealing scandal. 

Supposedly the players didn't get notice of the Commissioner's ultimatum after the Red Sox were fined in 2017.  It may be that the CBA specifies notice procedures and those weren't followed.  But is it plausible to think any MLB player actually was unaware of the policy?  Strange, too, to see the union taking a position that many (most?) of its members object to.  (Although it the CBA would have prohibited punishment, then MLBPA couldn't have taken any other position.)

The players' reactions also makes it harder for me to believe the "everybody was doing it" rationalization.  If Trout, Bellinger, et al. were also engaged in prohibited forms of sign-stealing, even if on some smaller scale than Houston, they'd be fools to keep the issue alive and to risk that someone would blow the whistle on them.

If it is the case that Manfred had his hands tied and could not punish the players with or without granting immunity, the best thing he can do is go public with this and lay out the situation in its entirety.  At least this way he'll get some sympathy from the public and the outrage will turn to the PA.  I don't see how he survives otherwise.

Not sure if this was a public release or not, but a friend (son's pitching coach, former MLB pitcher) received a notice from the MLBPA basically stating Manfred's claim that they were in a stalemate was complete BS. They made it sound like they asked for immunity and Manfred immediately responded with a yes. No back and forth at all. 

My take is that MLB went for the "truth" over "punishment" with the players.  Would probably not get the info without the immunity.

To further Fenway's point.  College baseball is heading into the "data" era with most big programs already hiring Director of Player Development positions.  These hires  will be using the likes of Trackman, Kvest, Rapsodo etc.  to improve their players.  Keep in mind that certain data needs video of the AB during games.      

NCAA rules should be written sooner than later.

http://www.astroscounty.com/p/...astros-timeline.html

Here is a 5,000 word piece chronologically linking 4+ years of the sign stealing saga in MLB.  Author does an excellent job of linking to the source articles and events.

Well this is disappointing:

David Ortiz says Astros whistleblower Mike Fiers looks like ‘a snitch’

https://www.washingtonpost.com...s-looks-like-snitch/

Ortiz's comments are more nuanced than the headline suggests.  But he and Pedro Martinez both criticize Fiers in the article.  I don't think that's a good look for them.  When Fiers released his story, he didn't have a deal for immunity or special treatment so far as I have heard.  Seems to me he took a greater risk than any other member of the 2017 Astros.

Jody Mac said that Fiers was not saying anything until the Astros used the cheating system against him when he was on the mound in an Astros / A's game last year.  According to Jody, Fiers heard the trash cans and got pretty mad.  He decided then to out them since they had the bad form to use it against a WS teammate.   

Maybe this snippet has been out there, but Jody just talked about this in the context of Ortiz' criticism.

Fiers is no humanitarian. But when he spoke up in the Athletic, he (based on what I have read) had no way to know if he would be punished, if he would be believed, or how his fellow players on and off the Astros would react. I’m not nominating him for a Nobel Peace Prize, but IMO he looks pretty good in comparison with the folks who said nothing, as well as those preaching omertà in the clubhouse and saying he is a snitch.

And even by the “sanctity of the clubhouse” standard, was he supposed to let the Astros hose his current team?