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182 replies

Wow - Astros penalty is out

Chico EscuelaChico Escuela5,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:

If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system?  The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.

Do you seriously think that with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, the best baseball players, coaches and analytics guys in the world didn't do whatever they workably could to protect their signs?  If it were as easy as a 12U softball game, would anybody be talking about this?

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts

Clearly, I don’t have a dog in the fight but we talk all things baseball here and this will be a story for a while until the next big thing. 

As a fan of baseball, I like hearing the diverse opinions and perspectives from other baseball fans. Without fail, someone here gives me a perspective that I didn’t think about. 

 

Q Qhead1,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:
22and25 posted:

I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:

 

If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now?  If you have pics post 'em up.

Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?

 

Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.

Whatever is true or not no longer matters.  Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead.  It will be there for a lifetime.

If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system?  The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.

Stros are now marked as cheaters - agreed.  But to me it does matter if this (seemingly far fetched) buzzer allegation turns out to be true, because it shows a much more coordinated and advanced system of cheating?  And it impacts 2019 whereas the existing taint is to 2017-18?  It could all be BS, but this is a different level above and beyond banging on a trash can lol.  

Don't say red "C" because that is the Indians new logo on their hats that replaced Chief Wahoo!

Thinking about it now, maybe that is why Cleveland never wins anything - b/c they don't cheat??  Just a theory....

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts
RJM posted:

It easy to photoshop pictures. 

Agreed but what interesting is I think “Beltran’s niece” said Altuve and Bregman wore devices on the right shoulder and this is something on the left shoulder...but ******* swings lefty. 

Again, lots of different opinions about all of this. I’ve gotten 100+ text messages from various people in my baseball circle so lots to digest. 

There’s another interesting story out there that I want to see if it has legs or not. It could be a big deal and it could be nothing but it’s interesting because I’m a fan of baseball. 

For the record, I’m a glass half full guy and tend the think the best of people and not the worst and I’ve made many mistakes in my life so I also tend to be a giver of second chances. 

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

Last edited by hshuler
Go44dadGo44dad10,000+ posts
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

We need more Braves fans because people aren’t happy about their lack of activity in free agency. 

Arenado would be huge but don’t think Braves will make it happen. My money is in the Cards. 

Last edited by hshuler
Go44dadGo44dad10,000+ posts
RossGA posted:

Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship.  Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million.  JOKE.  

Probably not Braves. I’m still a little sore about all the foot outside strike calls Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux got back in the ‘90’s. 

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts
RossGA posted:

Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship.  Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million.  JOKE.  

A couple additions and they’d probably be legitimate contender.  There ownership will learn about Atlanta fans soon. 😂

hshulerhshuler10,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:
RossGA posted:

Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship.  Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million.  JOKE.  

Probably not Braves. I’m still a little sore about all the foot outside strike calls Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux got back in the ‘90’s. 

Touché 

Texas1836Texas18361,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

Orioles need some help

F FoxDad10,000+ posts
Texas1836 posted:
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

Orioles need some help

Yeah, Lots of help.   From the top down.

K K910,000+ posts
Chico Escuela posted:

If you like scrappy underdogs that survive and thrive among to big spenders in the AL East, I recommend the Rays.  (Although you have to get used to rooting for a lot of new guys every year, because the team can't afford to keep its stars.)  And the Trop isn't as bad as it's made out to be.  

Yup.  I'm a Red Sox fan by birth, so I'll never shake that, but really admire what the Rays do.

fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

My local and national league team is the Nationals.   Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year.  Can't go wrong with the Nats!  Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.  

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.   In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package).  I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year. 

It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers.  That perspective is gone.   With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players.   How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game?   In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players.   If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life.   Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season. 

Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it. 

As always, JMO.       

Last edited by fenwaysouth
Go44dadGo44dad10,000+ posts
Chico Escuela posted:
fenwaysouth posted:

....

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.  ....

Many years ago, someone explained MLB to me this way:  "In the American League, they use a Designated Hitter; and in the National League, they play baseball."

Pitcher’s hitting are a nice comedy break, speeds things up a bit. 

JCGJCGStill working on a clever handle

I was born and raised as a O's fan (fortunately I'm old enough for that not to have been a horrible experience) but I've lived my adult life in NL markets (LA, SF, NY) so I follow and prefer NL baseball.  

True, pitchers hitting can be comic, except when they're not (for example Bumgarner), and sometimes you get to see something really, really special, as I did last season in my first game at Citi Field when Syndergaard shut out the Reds in  CG win, and drove in the only run of the game with a solo HR.

Last edited by JCG
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011

So, regarding the "wearable devices" element to this story, specifically the video of Altuve covering his jersey as he crosses home plate, he put out this statement via his agent...

...and this is his statement: ‘I have never worn an electronic device in my performance as a major league player.’ … [Altuve] has never been involved in any information with the use of an electronic device that is triggered during the course of the game. Fans need to keep in mind that there are a lot of players who are in the spider web, but they are not the black widow just because they are a member of the team or the league.

What I found to be missing in this statement is any denial of involvement in the bigger picture of the scandal.  Sure seems to me, if you are going to make a point to publicly clear yourself, you would do it all the way if innocent of any wrongdoing.  Unfortunately, my A + B = C logic tells me he was definitely involved in benefiting from the "trash can" version.  One of my favorites.  Dammit.

Last edited by cabbagedad
Go44dadGo44dad10,000+ posts
cabbagedad posted:

So, regarding the "wearable devices" element to this story, specifically the video of Altuve covering his jersey as he crosses home plate, he put out this statement via his agent...

...and this is his statement: ‘I have never worn an electronic device in my performance as a major league player.’ … [Altuve] has never been involved in any information with the use of an electronic device that is triggered during the course of the game. Fans need to keep in mind that there are a lot of players who are in the spider web, but they are not the black widow just because they are a member of the team or the league.

What I found to be missing in this statement is any denial of involvement in the bigger picture of the scandal.  Sure seems to me, if you are going to make a point to publicly clear yourself, you would do it all the way if innocent of any wrongdoing.  Unfortunately, my A + B = C logic tells me he was definitely involved in benefiting from the "trash can" version.  One of my favorites.  Dammit.

Hence my search for a new team.

Chico EscuelaChico Escuela5,000+ posts

Am I correct in recalling that Boras previously denied that Altuve participated in the trash can banging scheme?  I could swear I read a statement earlier, before the penalties were announced, but I can't find it today.  The latest Altuve denial is worded very carefully so as not to deny the prior cheating.

Yes, the latest controversy is only rumor and speculation at this point.  But I remind folks that there were published rumors at least as early as 2018 that the Astros were using trash cans to signal pitches in 2017 ("Two major league players said they have witnessed the Astros hitting a trash can in the dugout in recent years and believe it is a way to relay signals to hitters." -- from Oct 2018, https://sports.yahoo.com/sourc...ation-032027336.html  ) I'm not saying the current rumors are true, just that recent history suggests 1) that they can't be completely discounted (and denials by the alleged participants mean little or nothing given their track records); and 2) MLB may not act unless someone makes a non-anonymous public statement a la Mike Fiers.

--------

Edited to fix the link--autocorrect inserted an emoji.  Sorry

Last edited by Chico Escuela
Chico EscuelaChico Escuela5,000+ posts

I think we are going to be seeing more of this kind of report...  This one hit ESPN.com a few minutes ago:

"Jack McDowell says Tony La Russa had sign-stealing system with White Sox in '80s"

"Former Cy Young Award winner Jack McDowell on Friday accused Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa of having a camera-aided sign-stealing system installed when he was with the Chicago White Sox in the late 1980s."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...system-white-sox-80s

RoadRunnerRoadRunner5,000+ posts
fenwaysouth posted:
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

My local and national league team is the Nationals.   Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year.  Can't go wrong with the Nats!  Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.  

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.   In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package).  I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year. 

It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers.  That perspective is gone.   With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players.   How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game?   In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players.   If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life.   Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season. 

Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it. 

As always, JMO.       

Nfenwaysouth posted:
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

My local and national league team is the Nationals.   Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year.  Can't go wrong with the Nats!  Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.  

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.   In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package).  I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year. 

It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers.  That perspective is gone.   With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players.   How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game?   In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players.   If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life.   Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season. 

Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it. 

As always, JMO.       

I agree with all of the above except the ban for life. The players should be suspended, for at least a year. There’s no worse pain than not playing the game you love. And they need to feel that pain. They hurt other younger players coming up. Those young guys are being inadvertently punished. There will be 4 less guys that will get the chance to play pro ball. The wrong guys are being targeted. This hurts.

C collegebaseballrecruitingguide1,000+ posts
RoadRunner posted:
fenwaysouth posted:
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

My local and national league team is the Nationals.   Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year.  Can't go wrong with the Nats!  Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.  

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.   In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package).  I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year. 

It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers.  That perspective is gone.   With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players.   How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game?   In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players.   If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life.   Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season. 

Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it. 

As always, JMO.       

Nfenwaysouth posted:
Go44dad posted:
hshuler posted:
Go44dad posted:

Explain this, Shu!

https://twitter.com/LiveSCS/st.../1217919287987449889

No explanation, my friend! 🤣

The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree. 

At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life.  I'm looking for a new team.  Must be in Eastern time zone.  A 6:00 CST start sounds good.  Can't stay up past 9:00.  Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets.  Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't.  I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.

My local and national league team is the Nationals.   Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year.  Can't go wrong with the Nats!  Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.  

I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball.   In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package).  I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year. 

It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers.  That perspective is gone.   With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players.   How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game?   In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players.   If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life.   Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season. 

Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it. 

As always, JMO.       

I agree with all of the above except the ban for life. The players should be suspended, for at least a year. There’s no worse pain than not playing the game you love. And they need to feel that pain. They hurt other younger players coming up. Those young guys are being inadvertently punished. There will be 4 less guys that will get the chance to play pro ball. The wrong guys are being targeted. This hurts.

I actually agree with your last statement to a degree, although all of the players who project to be drafted top 2 rounds will still be drafted, just by other teams. 

RoadRunnerRoadRunner5,000+ posts
cabbagedad posted:

So, regarding the "wearable devices" element to this story, specifically the video of Altuve covering his jersey as he crosses home plate, he put out this statement via his agent...

...and this is his statement: ‘I have never worn an electronic device in my performance as a major league player.’ … [Altuve] has never been involved in any information with the use of an electronic device that is triggered during the course of the game. Fans need to keep in mind that there are a lot of players who are in the spider web, but they are not the black widow just because they are a member of the team or the league.

What I found to be missing in this statement is any denial of involvement in the bigger picture of the scandal.  Sure seems to me, if you are going to make a point to publicly clear yourself, you would do it all the way if innocent of any wrongdoing.  Unfortunately, my A + B = C logic tells me he was definitely involved in benefiting from the "trash can" version.  One of my favorites.  Dammit.

And if you are a hitter for the Astros, how exactly would you claim/be innocent?  Buzzer=private. Loud noises not so much. So what do you do as a player?  How do you ignore that?  I say it’s impossible. And I was huge Altuve fan (for personal reasons you can likely guess). This has made it harder for some to climb the ladder. 

RoadRunnerRoadRunner5,000+ posts
collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:
RoadRunner posted:

I agree with all of the above except the ban for life. The players should be suspended, for at least a year. There’s no worse pain than not playing the game you love. And they need to feel that pain. They hurt other younger players coming up. Those young guys are being inadvertently punished. There will be 4 less guys that will get the chance to play pro ball. The wrong guys are being targeted. This hurts.

I actually agree with your last statement to a degree, although all of the players who project to be drafted top 2 rounds will still be drafted, just by other teams. 

Of course. But what about the 4 that get no chance?  Some here may say/think the last last 4 don’t really have a ”chance”. I guess that depends how you define chance. Maybe some guys need/want the experience. Maybe they want to build their resume, to coach, college or otherwise. Maybe those 4 unimportant players want to stay in the game, whatever it takes, at whatever level, doing whatever job they are qualified for. 

RoadRunnerRoadRunner5,000+ posts
collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

Guys I know who were drafted in the last couple rounds in my experience are typically great players who are going to top D1 programs and told teams that they were not going to sign, or relatives of MLB executives or coaches, who have no real chance at a professional career and were drafted as favors. Happens every year.

Four less. 

C collegebaseballrecruitingguide1,000+ posts

Is it just me, or has everyone else had it “up to here” with cheating and cheaters? If it’s not people buying their ways into schools or on to rosters, it’s players/teams cheating at a systemic rate. It’s trash cans, video cameras, perhaps buzzers and PEDs. 

I for one and sick of this crap and would like to see teams receive an ultimatum. If the team is caught cheating to win games, the organization will not be scheduled to play in the following season. THE ENTIRE SEASON. Impacts the owners, impacts the players who are part of the cheating, and impacts those who do not cheat. Hopefully the pressure on the cheaters on the club from the non-cheaters to not mess with their livelihoods would have an impact. A full year of team revenue would certainly catch their attention.

just sick of this...

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