Wow - Astros penalty is out

Couple takeaways.  I will stay clear of others opinions of too light, too harsh, just right on the punishment.

1)  If you cheat, lie, steal, or take/give a bribe, you are a cheater, liar, thief or corrupt for life.  Once dirty, dirty forever in many people's eyes. If you took PED's once, you are a PED user for life. No matter how clean the rest of your life is, or how many good deeds you do, you will be seen by some as your worst deed. You live with your choices. This is the message to pass to young people.

2) Someone's HOF chances just went down.

As an Astros fan since 1981, I would like to see all position players from 2017 roster traded.  Happy Crane fired Luhnow and Hinch.

There is an asterisk on the World Series and the current players accomplishment, whether BBREF puts one there or not.

fenwaysouth posted:

TPM & Chico,

So, I'm assuming the commish's message to all MLB GM's is you better know what is going on in your dugout.  Ignorance is not bliss.   If there is something going on, you better do something about it.   While he did not implicate him directly he certainly held him accountable.

I know I understand, but I have my opinion. 

I believe what he said, but I agree that he deserved to be fired.

Waiting to see what Cora's fate is, HE really should be given a lifetime suspension.

JMO

Went home for lunch and briefly listened to some Will Cain.  ..heard some interesting, albeit slanted, takes on one aspect of the effect of the cheating via an interview with Plaschke.

His viewpoint was that without the cheating, the Dodgers would have won that series in six.  What was interesting is his further delving into the impact...  Some examples - Yu Darvish was basically run out of LA after failing in the series after having been very successful otherwise during the season.  Kershaw's image/reputation as having failed on the big stage may have been reversed with success in that series.  Dave Roberts would be seen in an entirely different light with a WS title under his belt.  The Dodgers' overall fortunes, player and personnel salary and opportunities likely affected long term as Series Champs always carries considerable resume weight as well as the direct compensation, etc., etc.  As he was talking through it, there was almost a "Back to the Future" feel.

One could certainly carry this argument further downstream.

Jeff Passan on ESPN.com (I want to read Manfred’s report For myself; haven’t done so yet):

“information in Manfred's report that "at least two emails sent to Luhnow" informed him of replay-review room sign decoding, about which he did nothing.“

Maybe Luhnow never read the emails, or didn’t take them seriously. But this is not a great look.

Whole article is an interesting read: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...stealing-punishments 

Interesting.  Who sends an email to someone when the implications are huge?  

I am gonna use a phrase that you have all heard.

The fish stinks from the head down.

Sounds like Crane wasn't in the dark either, and MLB gave in to him and the other owners. 

JMO.

I am kinda done with this. It's just such a shame.

Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways. 

hshuler posted:

Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways. 

The conversation went a little like this:

Red Sox: "So, we both agree that you have to get fired, right?"

Cora: "If you say so."

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

hshuler posted:

Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways. 

The conversation went a little like this:

Red Sox: "So, we both agree that you have to get fired, right?"

Cora: "If you say so."

 

Like this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/12u.../1212867195182735361

Yankees minor league team doing mini trash can promo 

https://twitter.com/SIYanks/st...180321973776385?s=19

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

K9 posted:

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

Bingo.  There may be a lot of clubs looking for new GMs and Managers, and a lot of clubs getting draft picks that would have gone to other teams.   Detroit, Miami and Baltimore may be able to pull themselves out of the MLB dumpster by getting more talented draft picks thanks to the greed of these other teams.  Just a thought.

Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life  At least I can say I don't ride band-wagons, lol

fenwaysouth posted:

K9 posted:

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

Bingo.  There may be a lot of clubs looking for new GMs and Managers, and a lot of clubs getting draft picks that would have gone to other teams.   Detroit, Miami and Baltimore may be able to pull themselves out of the MLB dumpster by getting more talented draft picks thanks to the greed of these other teams.  Just a thought.

My guess is that the Astros will be the only team that will be punished. 

ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life  At least I can say I don't ride band-wagons, lol

Given Baltimore's recent history in managing the team draft choices and trades, as an O's fan I'm not all that optimistic.   But after last season there's no where to go but up (I hope!).

K9 posted:

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

I think most teams "cheat" to some extent.  Astros were just stupid and out of control.  Manfred made an example out of them.  I don't think MLB will push too hard on the other clubs, with the exception of the Red Sox.

K9 posted:

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

Should be interesting... we seem to have reached a very pivotal point.  A player specifically calls out several offenders (can you say "Jose Canseco"?).  Will baseball act and investigate, which would open a huge can (excuse the pun)?   Or will they just draw the line in the sand and say "no more - you're all on notice"?

cabbagedad posted:

K9 posted:

This is just getting started.

Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sp...4rmdf4mfe-story.html

Should be interesting... we seem to have reached a very pivotal point.  A player specifically calls out several offenders (can you say "Jose Canseco"?).  Will baseball act and investigate, which would open a huge can (excuse the pun)?   Or will they just draw the line in the sand and say "no more - you're all on notice"?

MLB mirrors much of what we see and hear everyday. People cheat. They cheat for all different reasons, in this case, it's  about being #1, which brings rewards, fame and fortune.  Sorry, there is a lot more to life than being #1, and you can be successful without cheating.

Sit down with your kids and have the talk. It's important.  We need to change the narrative. You have to get up each day and look yourself in the mirror and ask, how can I make a  positive difference to others.

FoxDad posted:

ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life  At least I can say I don't ride band-wagons, lol

Given Baltimore's recent history in managing the team draft choices and trades, as an O's fan I'm not all that optimistic.   But after last season there's no where to go but up (I hope!).

I would hope UP is the only place left to go, lol, but I have learned to keep my expectations low over the years. Stings a little less that way! 

If any team really needed a camera system set-up with a stupid trash-can banger it was the O's. Probably wouldn't of matter anyway, overpaid 1st baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat

FWIW our own Kyle Boddy is a fan of new GM Mike Elias. I have always thought that in pro sports,  good owners were more important than good management, but hopefully I’m wrong and the new regime can turn things around for all of us long-suffering O’s fans. 

Another domino...Carlos Beltran "stepping down" as Met's manager.

Good.  Lots of Mets fans whining about it, and the timing sucks,  but it's much better not to have a cloud over the club before pitchers and catchers even get to camp.

If they are whining about BVW making a bad hire to start with that is understandable.  If they are whining about a cheater being let go, that is ridiculous.  

This is about to get reeeeally interesting.

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/st.../1217886556263940098

https://youtu.be/mWKLDm8ZI6Q

 https://mobile.twitter.com/Bas.../1217902653595889666

This is a good time to root for our boys and our IRL friends' boys' & HSBBWEB friends' boys' college baseball teams and stop paying very much attention to MLB.

HSHULER that's nuts.  I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did.  Were they pushing it for certain pitches?  Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over.  Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another.  Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....

1st thought:  

2nd: The fact no one mentioned these charges during the recent investigation (assuming they did not do so) makes me skeptical.  This seems calculated to stir the pot, not to lead to any resolution.  

3rd: But the Altuve shirt-ripping thing is kind of odd...

4th: Can there be any doubt that it's time for MLB to move to encrypted communications links between players and the dugout?  No usable system of relaying signs in the old way is going to be secure given 2020 technology. 

Kimb27 posted:

HSHULER that's nuts.  I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did.  Were they pushing it for certain pitches?  Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over.  Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another.  Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....

Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sta.../1217905115362930700

hshuler posted:

Kimb27 posted:

HSHULER that's nuts.  I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did.  Were they pushing it for certain pitches?  Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over.  Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another.  Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....

Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sta.../1217905115362930700

Wow....   Altuve does seem really, ummm, interested in taking care of that jersey.

A prosecutor in a criminal case would start offering plea bargains to try to "flip" a witness. What happens if Manfred calls Hinch, Cora, Luhnow and Beltran and says "the first one of you to tell me the entire truth can avoid a lifetime ban"?  

Chico Escuela posted:

hshuler posted:

Kimb27 posted:

HSHULER that's nuts.  I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did.  Were they pushing it for certain pitches?  Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over.  Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another.  Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....

Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sta.../1217905115362930700

Wow....   Altuve does seem really, ummm, interested in taking care of that jersey.

A prosecutor in a criminal case would start offering plea bargains to try to "flip" a witness. What happens if Manfred calls Hinch, Cora, Luhnow and Beltran and says "the first one of you to tell me the entire truth can avoid a lifetime ban"?  

The owner of this twitter account says that she’s Beltran’s niece  The Beltran family has said that she isn’t a relative.

This person may not be Beltran’s niece but it’s ironic that they posted Beltran has steeped down last night but the announcement wasn’t made until today. My guess is that it’s a ghost account but the owner has an ax to grind. The most interesting comment is that they have locker room pics for a rainy day.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jom...556263940098/photo/2

hshuler posted:

This is about to get reeeeally interesting.

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/st.../1217886556263940098

https://youtu.be/mWKLDm8ZI6Q

 https://mobile.twitter.com/Bas.../1217902653595889666

Wow.  That is crazy.

I'm not sure what MLB can do to discipline the players due to the Players Association.  Management has been made the scapegoats, and the players will be able to say that Hinch/Cora pressured them to it.

K9 posted:

I'm not sure what MLB can do to discipline the players due to the Players Association.  Management has been made the scapegoats, and the players will be able to say that Hinch/Cora pressured them to it.

Maybe.  But Altuve is a former MVP, and Bregman, Springer and others weren't going to be benched without the matter attracting a lot of notice.  I wouldn't buy that they could be coerced into cheating. There is also the fact that the players may have lied to MLB's investigators--I thought they received immunity at least in part in exchange for providing information. I don't pretend to know the details of the union's contract, but if MLB can't discipline players in circumstances like those alleged here, then that's a critical problem.

IMO, wearable buzzers take the scandal to another level, because it requires a different degree of coordination among multiple people on and off the field. It also seems likely to be much more effective than trying to pick out the sound of a trash can banging in a crowded stadium.

Obviously we need more facts.  But just having these new allegations surface is bad. MLB will have to investigate and can't say "well, that's all behind us now." I assume people are already scrutinizing game films to look for Astros players suspiciously tugging at their collars. That footage of Altuve homering off Chapman does look awfully odd now.  

"MLB explored wearable devices during the investigation but found no evidence to substantiate it.” (from Joel Sherman, NY Post)

https://twitter.com/Joelsherma.../1217918038961467400

I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:

If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now?  If you have pics post 'em up.

Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?

22and25 posted:

I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:

 

If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now?  If you have pics post 'em up.

Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?

 

Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.

Whatever is true or not no longer matters.  Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead.  It will be there for a lifetime.

If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system?  The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.

Go44dad posted:

22and25 posted:

I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:

 

If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now?  If you have pics post 'em up.

Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?

 

Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.

Whatever is true or not no longer matters.  Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead.  It will be there for a lifetime.

If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system?  The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.

I think it was reported that the Nationals went to extreme measures to protect their signs during the World Series. 

Go44dad posted:

22and25 posted:

I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:

 

If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now?  If you have pics post 'em up.

Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?

 

Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.

Whatever is true or not no longer matters.  Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead.  It will be there for a lifetime.

If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system?  The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.

The buzzer allegations, and Altuve video posted above are from the 2019 ALCS.  In game 2 of the series Corea hit a walk off bomb in the 11th.  After he crossed the plate another player ripped his jersey open and eventually off.  No wires or bulges seen under his compression layer.

https://youtu.be/2f7lmqAlht4

Kimb27 posted:

HSHULER that's nuts.  I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did.  Were they pushing it for certain pitches?  Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over.  Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another.  Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....

Vacating championships? That will happen right after all steroid era statistics are erased.

And one more thought.....if the buzzer was an escalation for 2019, over banging drums and then whistling, how would Beltran's niece know anything about it or have Astros locker room access.....he wasn't with the Astros in 2018 or 2019.  In fact, Beltran worked for the Yankees in 2018 and 2019 as a special advisor.  Did he advise the Yankees on the same things he taught the Astros?  

22and25 posted:

And one more thought.....if the buzzer was an escalation for 2019, over banging drums and then whistling, how would Beltran's niece know anything about it or have Astros locker room access.....he wasn't with the Astros in 2018 or 2019.  In fact, Beltran worked for the Yankees in 2018 and 2019 as a special advisor.  Did he advise the Yankees on the same things he taught the Astros?  

I don’t think anyone believes that it’s Beltran’s niece but it’s clearly someone with an axe to grind. 

This is interesting if you zoom in.

https://twitter.com/stephenjne...907336418877443?s=12