Icing in PRE-High School...Really????

 Though recent studies now say that icing doesn't really help the healing process, and can even be detrimental to the healing process my son still ices. He started when he was about 10. 15 minutes of ice after throwing followed by 15 minutes off followed by another 15 mins of ice. You need the on off process to allow blood flow to return to normal for a while. 

Joes87, do you feel this regiment has helped him?  Did he ice because he was hurting, or just because you thought it was the thing to do?  What kind of pitches was he throwing at age 10 that would have made you think to ice?

Mine was probably around 10 as well. He threw just FB and CU back then, but he was always on the field throwing. Everyone figured if you were sore, use ice and take an anti inflammatory. No big deal and no idea how it helped. He liked it, getting his arm wrapped...

No harmful effects. 

Ice masks and relieves the pain and will help with swelling with a bruise. However, it restricts blood flow and decreases the rate of healing. It certainly does make a throbbing arm feel better, but that's about it.

So it's "normal" for a 10 or 12 year old to have a throbbing arm due to throwing? 

 

Yes, that's the bigger question to me... why does this 12U team have "a few sore arms and injuries"? And is he asking because his son pitches and catches, or just catches? The old thinking was that ice brings blood to the area, and blood promotes healing of muscles. Also numbs the pain of muscle fatigue. Not a huge deal.

 

But if he's looking for ice to stave off elbow and shoulder injuries, he's looking at the wrong problem.

The poster seems to be looking for her/his 12 year old catcher.  My son has caught for 4 years and pitched for 3 years and has never once even hinted at arm pain.  I kind of think of him as being made of rubber, but his coach sits him prior to and after pitching, maybe that's the difference?

Ice is a normal part of being an athlete.  He has had some "rehab" and every time they ice at the end. 

 

When a player doesn't properly condition in the off season and then picks up a ball and throws 100% the first practice, sore arms are the result.  I can't tell you how many teams by me struggled with sore arms in April/May.  Our team never had an issue but the kids where well conditioned to throw. 

Icing restricts bloodflow.

 

Why would anyone, ever, want to restrict the bloodflow of a tendon? (Except of course in the case of an emergency situation)

Son started at 11. I have found no problems with it.

I've iced my sore ankles before with great results. 

 

Also don't pro-athletes in football and basketball sit in ice tubs after a game?

http://www.caringmedical.com/s...do-not-recommend-it/

 

http://www.mobilitywod.com/201...re-wrong-sooo-wrong/

 

http://www.macleans.ca/society...-end-of-the-ice-age/

 

http://stoneathleticmedicine.c...n-is-not-the-answer/

 

http://drmirkin.com/fitness/wh...delays-recovery.html

What's funny about those "anti-ice" people is that most of them have something for sale. And they often cannot provide references supporting their situation; they just like to tell you that there aren't any sources supporting ice either.

 

Personally I believe it's nuts the way baseball purists have considered icing to be so crucial after pitching or just throwing in general. But I do utilize quite often for a lot of different injuries. We use our Game Ready units a ton at the high school I work at. 10-12 kids a day easily for this or that injury. Especially post-op situations the Game Ready units are life-savers. These provide both cold and compression. 

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

My sons would throw with each other on a daily basis, including long toss, a couple times a week. Their arms did get tired, and back then it was all about ice, no controversy back then. But the point is they threw and they had muscle pain, maybe tendon pain, who knows. They iced, rested then threw again. My son at 25 still has a strong arm that rarely aches.

He threw a lot every day or so from the time he was 7 or 8.

It is what it is, a ball player will use his arm and will experience discomfort, even at 11.

My son has iced (rarely) on and off over the years. I think the first time we iced him was 13U after he threw a lot of pitches in a semifinal game. Anymore, he prefers to rest it and ease back into throwing rather than ice. I asked one of THE premier college pitching coaches in the country this past summer about the need to ice etc and when/how often? He basically said, he doesn't think there is one thing that remedies every player. Mentioned how icing immediately chills the muscles/tendons/ligaments that are hot from use and that quick contraction can't be good long term. Also said, "I don't take aspirin if i don't have a headache." Not what i expected but it sort of helped me deal with my son's methodology of not really using it over the years. If it works for your son and relieves discomfort/adds to his confidence and performance, then go right ahead.

Yes, appalled that an 11 year old needs ice is pretty much how I feel.  If you are properly warmed up, and properly conditioning 10, 11, 12 year olds...they really are like rubber they have to be doing something their body just isn't ready for for them to hurt like that. 

 

The 10 year old that plays a different sport in fall and winter and picks up a baseball in February and tries to throw with all his might is doing something wrong, and the coach shouldn't allow full throws without a ramp up to that...maybe long tossing for one practice, followed by short throws....etc...not day one "Let's see if you remember how to pitch throw it hard!"...isn't the coach just begging for an injury and a sore arm?

 

There seems to be this theory out there that the more you throw, the sorer you get, the better you must be conditioning your arm....what ever happened to listening to your body so you don't hurt yourself?

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

I read the article, it was informative about how kids don't throw enough...but it didn't mention kids feeling sore.  In fact it backed up both the assertion of floridafan that kids don't throw enough, and my assertion that the soreness is coming from lack of use and a pitcher should ramp up, or maintain the level of throwing, not try to go full out on day one of practice after 4 months.

I've heard all kinds of stories about pitchers over the years.  I hear of pitchers that never get sore and I, personally have a hard time believing that.  I'm sure they're not lying, but I have yet to personally meet a pitcher who doesn't get sore after a relatively long outing.

 

Keep in mind.  There is a difference between being sore and feeling pain.  My son has been pitching since he was 8.  I don't remember about being sore during the 8-11 years, but I know that he would get sore at 12+.  He still will get sore if he pushes it.  My son knows when he is just sore from throwing a lot and when he is feeling some kind of pain, or discomfort other than being sore.  

 

My son played rec league until he was 12.  Only played maybe 25-30 games a year between spring and fall.  However, he was ALWAYS throwing something.  Whether it was tennis balls at the garage door, superballs at the walls in the house, rocks into the lake, whiffle ball games, whatever.  Starting at 12 he played travel and if he was up on his pitches, he would get sore.  I'll still talk to him and if he goes over 85 or 90 pitches, he'll get sore.  Once in a while he ices, but has never really liked to do it much.  Fortunately (knock on wood), he hasn't had any major injuries (ie. surgery) and is still pitching at 21 years old.  

 

I just wanted to make the point that there is a BIG difference between getting sore after an outing and feeling pain after an outing.  I think sore is OK, pain is NOT.

Nice stuff by Kyle.

I like him, he makes it very simple and easy to understand how it works.

 

Yup, there are plenty of youth pitcher,catchers who have very painful/sore arms, I think that was my point in pitching injury topic. Most of it is overuse and poor mechanics. Being sore is NOT UNUSUAL, having pain is.  The problem is that parents dont know the difference so they allow their players a few days rest and then back on the mound without ever figuring out what is going on. They think it will go away with some ice and some otc drugs.

 

Mine started pitching at an early age and they iced back then all of the time. I am not sure exactly of the benefits, but he iced all of his life until he stopped he developed some shoulder issues. My opinion.

Also giving a young child medication is not a good practice.  Save that for someday when he really needs it.

Kevin O'Sullivan told me once that he lets pitchers do what makes them comfortable. I guess that is the key, everyone is different.

 

CaCO3girl,

If you are getting this info from a post, how do you know if the players throws enough

or not?

So you are saying that pitching in a game one day and then catching the next or playing ss is good. Its not about how much you throw or dont throw but the preparation and the frequency.

Don't confuse tossing with throwing. And don't confuse a loose arm by describing it as rubber. Not all kids have loose arms.

I don't know if this relates to icing arms or shoulders in baseball but a few years ago at about age 45 I severely sprained my ankle playing basketball to the point I had to be carried to a car for my wife to take me home. I had been playing for about an hour so I had a good workout.

The HS basketball coach who was there told me to submerge my ankle in ice for 10-15 minutes immediately upon arriving home in about 4 sessions with about 10 minutes between sessions.  I did this that evening and then next morning. 

I was playing within a week and a half with no pain. . 

You always use ice after a sprain. RICE..rest, ice, compression then elevation.
In the case in the OP, if there is soreness or pain than ice may be helpful. For  young pitchers that throw too hard, their first few outings should be closely monitored by the coach as to not over do it.  Thats only if he knows what he is doing.

FWIW I was referring to lions injury (RICE). 
I cant endorse if it would or would not help a 12 year old's severe arm pain.  I have always found ice helps reduce inflammation but should be applied asap after an injury.

I have no idea if the player in the post throws enough or not...but at age 12 I can only assume that he is either not conditioned or not doing it right to be sore and needing ice.

 

As for my rubber comment, I was referring to all youth in general. Their bodies bounce back far quicker when they are young, and things that would land an adult in the hospital for weeks they just pop up and say "I'm okay!"  Of course children can get broken arms and they can get hurt, but having multiple 12 year old's on one team asking for ice because their arm hurts/is sore...doesn't sound normal to me.

Nothing wrong with ice, but you should combine it with heat (unless you have an injury like a sprain or bruising).  The normal body reaction to healing from injury is to swell and immobilize.  Taking anti inflammatory medicine, may help with pain and keep swelling down a bit, but inhibits the natural healing process from starting.  Ice will restrict blood flow, heat will promote blood flow.  Restriction squeezes out waste, heat brings in nutrients.  A combination of the two will assist in recovery. If you have too much swelling from a sprain, blood flow can be naturally restricted and the healing process can take longer.  That is why with sprains, you should ice immediately, take anti-inflammatory medicine, and immobilize the joint artificially.  Once the swelling has stopped, you treat with ice and heat to speed the healing process.  If your child has arm or shoulder pain, he should run after his games and treat with ice / heat, no anti inflammatory medicines.  If he is still sore for his next game, he should not throw.  Video his mechanics and have someone review.

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

I am not sure how one can assume anything without knowing the player but this is why I posted about injuries. Parents do your due diligence when you have control over the situation. I agree NO 12 year old should be experiencing any type of pain in any sport, but they do, because parents just cant have them not be in the game, because they are afraid they will miss out on something.

My daughters BF son age 12, had bad knee issues and not able to do anything for 2 months. Dad just thought playing football and lax at the same time was a good thing. It was 5 -6 days a week of either games or practice.  Because he has growth issues to begin with, he ended up with a serious issue. 

Not agreeing that all kids bounce back from injuries.  Lots of it depends on growth issues, those injuries showing up later many times are from youth issues never properly addressed.

 

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

This doesn't make you a better athlete, that's not its purpose. It's purpose is for more efficient and quicker recovery times which lead to lesser risk of injury. It's endorsed by a number of reputable sources including Kyle.

Honestly, do some research on it. If it does even a quarter of what people claim, it's a long term investment with a big upside.

Healthier athletes? Yes. Well, maybe (I took the risk but haven't had it long enough to draw a conclusion). Do you really think it can't help?

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 

The glove wasn't much over $100 :-)  Other kids have $300+ gloves.  Still keeping my head down and NOT drinking the kool-aid...much....but the old glove did break.

Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.

And my kid isn't 12.

In fact, note that it is used by 28 MLB teams and endorsed publicly by many of them. Sorry about the last comment.

Endorsed? Used?  Not! Because they endorse it means you should use it? They endorse lots of products!! They get paid to do that!!!!

Sorry, its a fancy TENS machine!!

 

http://rightdoorproductions.com/portfolio/marc-pro/

 

Detroit Tigers for one, discuss its use here. Do you even investigate anything before you post? I'll be honest. You provide some good information in about 10% of your posts, but I get a little weary of your "holier-than-thou attitude" and the idea based on the success of your son that there are no experiences or knowledge beyond what's in your own world. I, personally don't post info like I have here (and certainly don't spend my money) without doing my research and talking with people who have experience with the product. Before buying this, I communicated with Kyle at Driveline, I spoke to several professional cyclists. You, on the other hand, just spouted out an ignorant opinion without any research or fact checking. But, that's what you get on the internet, Iguess.

There is controversy as to whether it really does do what they claim it does. How do you know what I have read and what I havent? Will this machine make your player better or will he do better than the player that uses ice?  Are we to be impressed because you bought a 600 machine. Lets see what the future holds, will he stay healthy using this product?  

 

How successful do you suppose son was, maybe if the Tigers thought this really would help their pitchers they would have used it down the farm? or other teams?  I mean its only 600 dollars, these guys can afford dozens of them for every team they have, and would not pay as much as you did, right?  Do you know if these machines are in every locker room?  Please let us know.

 

 

You spoke to cyclists?  How many pitchers did you speak with?

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think that the Tigers wont have as many pitchers struggle this season with the use of that? Or any other team?

Maybe its endorsed but prove to us it helps pitchers not get injured or recover faster.

 

Come on, we all know that you get it for free when you endorse a product!!!  Its the poor athlete who has to pay for it!!!

Root,

This is a HSBBW and the topic was about 12 year old pitchers with arm issues. I dont think the 12 year old needs that high tech stuff, at this time.  Not sure why you actually brought it up, other than you wanted us to know that you spent 600 on something after talking to cyclists?

 

Ice vs no ice, this discussion was not about professional athletes doing all sorts of things to keep their job.

 

Do college programs use this device?  I do believe that would be of more interest than what the Detroit Tigers do for their staff they pay millions of dollars to.

 

Do you get that?

 

Because you have shown a total ignorance of the subject. Driveline, for example uses it for their pitchers and have been impressed with the results and they are just one of many organizations over a range of sports. Where is the controversy? When researching it, I couldn't find a single negative or ambiguous comment from those who have used it. Are you impressed that I spent $600? No. Am I supposed to be impressed that your son has pro experience? You lord it over us mere mortals often enough. Does it work better than ice - definitely. Actually, the Houston Astros use it between innings for their pitchers. The Toronto Blue Jays use it for all of their pitchers. As do nine NBA teams and a dozen NFL teams. Additionally, I very much trust the advise and experience of Kyle Boddy.

 

Really, your entire argument seems to be that your son (again we get to hear of your wisdom imputed through your son) doesn't use it, so it's useless.

 

My question is, knowing nothing about it, why did you feel the need to immediately throw out a snarky remark?

The issue is about the benefits of icing at any age.Do you get that? From Driveline and Kyle :

"Many MLB teams and Division-I colleges use this product and I’ve gotten a deluge of testimonials from people I highly trust, including Dave Coggin of PFA Fitness down in LA."I don't know.Maybe you don't find Driveline to be credible.

The only D1 I can say for sure uses it is Temple.

 

I am not disputing that these people use recommend and endorse this product. 
This has nothing to do with son so dont go there, you already brought him into this and that only makes you look bad. 

Please supply reviews of ML baseball players that have used this product and have had positive results.  I cant seem to find any.
Let me get this straight you were recommending this product for a 12 year old or bragging about how much you spend?

Here's a good article on the subject by Randy Sullivan of The ARMory.

 

https://armorypitching.com/ice...ls-not-for-pitchers/

I know Trevor Bauer uses the marc pro and is a very big proponent:

https://twitter.com/baueroutag...s/519971025946439680

 

I know that Kyle's pro, college and HS pitchers use the Marc Pro and he's had great measurable results with it: http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...oducts/arm-recovery/

 

I've used it with my pitchers (disclosure: I won mine, and didn't buy it), and they all love it.  Whether it's a placebo effect, I can't be sure.  If the price is too much, I've also used the Stick on pitchers' Flexor Pronator mass [see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466738 ].  Before getting the Marc Pro, we used this:   http://www.amazon.com/truMedic...f=zg_bs_8627079011_1  While not as nearly good as the Marc Pro, for the price, it's a good deal and seemed to help.

 

 

Don't want to engage in any battle, however I will somewhat reluctantly give my .02 cents in case anyone deems my opinion / contribution of any value.

 

As it relates to ice - I am not a fan, there is way too many reviews and articles (many posted here already) that indicate no value unless of actual injury, and may (likely) inhibits recovery as a post throwing protocol.

 

Marc Pro (sp?) - I spent time with Kyle (Driveline) in Nashville recently, and have read or studied the device, and do believe there is some definite benefit of using, specifically for post throwing recovery / and or rehab. 

 

As any of this relates to 12 year old, I am not sure of any value....if a 12 year old is needing post throwing arm care, or experiencing arm soreness, I think something else is in play here.  Most studies show that micro tears, or potential danger to ligaments, or tendons exist primarily for those throwing in excess of 80 MPH or more, and the harder you throw the higher the risk.

 

Gonna add one more comment as it relates to icing. 

 

Baseball, unlike the other major sports is normally "last" to embrace technology, and abandon activities that no longer are valid.  There was recently a thread where an ex-MLB pitcher was advocating long distance running, which most recognize is not the best mode of conditioning a pitcher. 

 

It is almost sad to watch "pitching / hitting instructors" give lessons with verbal cues, and drills that are proven contradictory to their effectiveness.  Why?  Because their coach "said so", and their coach before them "said so", so it must be true.  Baseball is one of the most traditional games, with a lot of nostalgia that is not as prevalent in other sports, which makes it the greatest game on earth, however also makes it difficult for some to realize that what we did 100 years ago, may not be what we should be teaching today.

If anyone bothered to read I did say son stopped using ice a while ago. He does series of excercises given to him from ortho rehab. I did express my opinion of him not using ice. He would ice if in pain.   He also throws hard.  Thats the key here...throwing hard.  Saying because son doesn't use it that I think its no good is just plane ridiculous. You Mr. Roothog, have actually no clue what son has or hasn't done for recovery, after surgery, for injury, etc, because I questioned it has NOTHING to do with what he has or hasn't done.  

Once again this was about  12 year olds using ice because they are sore or in pain.  Just not sure how marc pro (for 600$) would solve that problem.  This got a bit off topic and I take blame for some of that.

Good points made above by back foot slider. As there are continuously new methods coming out for training and conditioning, there are many who still go back to old school. It works for some, not for others. Its like running or no running after you pitch. This is a message board so you will get a variety of opinions. I tried real hard to find product recommendation on sites it was sold but couldnt.  Its the pitcher who uses it not affiliated with any organization who has to pay for it that I want to see info from.

 

Recommending an item here for 600 dollars when people cant afford to send their players to showcases or campus visits is just plain a kick in the butt for many. Until you can prove that this makes the pitcher a better pitcher, that he has sustained no injury, what was the point in recommending a product that you said you are not even sure it works?

thanks mcCloven for the lessor expensive machine.

 

Last season, the Tigers organizations pitchers sustained lots of injuries that kept Brad Ausmus scrambling everyday for replacements, had to go deep into the farm.  

 

BTW, they have a pretty good pitching program, son actually liked it much more than he did with the Cardinals. However, the bottom line is that nothing will ever prevent injury, unless you stop pitching.

I will remain unconvinced about the beneficial results of the product until more than one ML pitcher or amateur pitcher speaks on the benefits and how it has helped them to recover or sustain injury.  No digs on anyone but when one partners and sells a product or gets it complimentary..of course they will endorse it...no offense to Kyle, you are a good guy and you should not have been brought into this.

 

JMO

 

 

^5

My baseball players here, I'm told, love the Game Ready units. Fortunately we have two of them and we could actually have 4 players hooked up at one time. We also have expensive stim units and all sorts of things. No Marc Pro and quite frankly I don't see one in my future either. Not worth the money to me..

I didn't recommend the Marc Pro, though I might after I've given my son and my students a chance to use it for awhile. I simply mentioned that it is an alternative many in the profession, including myself, are using. That was met with the following snarky comment:

 

"Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?"

 

I didn't "bring Kyle into it." I simply pointed out, as a reference, that I wasn't out in the dark here. If TPM wants to ask the above question, she's going to get an answer. That answer is yes and comes from Kyle and Driveline, Steve Ellis, Dick Mills, Kevin Rand (head trainer for the Detroit Tigers), Kenny Leverich of Crossfit, Gary Vitti (head athletic trainer for the Los Angeles Lakers), Dwight Stansbury (Head ahletic trainer for Temple baseball), and on and on. Kyle runs a business. I don't use Kyle as a reference point because he's a poster on here. I use him as a reference point because he's a qualified professional most on this board would be familiar with. You asked a rhetorical question with the purpose of diminishing another's opinion (not a new move for you, by the way). I answered your question. Yes. All of the above as well as 26 mlb teams, 9 NBA teams and several NFL teams think this is a far better alternative than icing for helping an athlete. You, however, having very little knowledge on the subject decided to demean my opinion. You might have questioned its price. You might have questioned its effectiveness. There are many things you might have intelligently and rightly questioned. Then we could have had a real conversation on them pros and cons of this alternative to icing. However, you chose a different path. Typical. If you would ever like to have that discussion, please do so. Bring some research, bring some references and opinions for backup that differ from what I've given you. No problem. There are, in fact, others here who would also gladly give you their own experiences and knowledge of the subject. I welcome such a discussion.

FYI, the Marc Pro appears to be for muscles, not tendons (ex. UCL) which is what usually 'breaks'.

 

Ice is fine for muscles.

FYI, the Ulnar Collateral Ligament is not a tendon.

And, the concept is that the ligaments "break" because of the muscles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17936028

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466738

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...oducts/arm-recovery/

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...s-and-wrist-weights/

 

If the muscles aren't working correctly they put more strain on the ligament.  The Marc Pro and other techniques (wrist weights, etc.) in combination help the muscles recover, strengthen and work correctly.  

 

See also:  

 http://drchrismckenzie.com/bas...eleration-exercises/

 

When you lack eccentric strength and you continue to throw hard, abusing those deceleration muscles—The weakest link usually hurts, AND (this is important!) it puts more strain on the next segment down the chain causing risk of significant damage.

 

The stages look like this:

 

1. Muscle soreness/fatigue that goes away quickly in 2-12hours

 

2. Muscle soreness/fatigue that takes longer, >12-48hrs to go away.  **Also known as DEAD ARM**

 

3. Muscle soreness/fatigue turns into muscle and joint pain  (Low and mid back pain, shoulder impingement syndrome(s), Little league shoulder syndrome, small SLAP and labral tears, elbow tendonitis, UCL/Tommy John pain, elbow stress fractures, and valgus overload syndrome to name a few)

 

4. Muscle and Joint failure:  Hamstring strains, abdominal strains,  rotator cuff tears, large SLAP and labral tears, and Tommy John injuries.

Ok so here are my last thoughts on this.

First I didnt realize that there are 32 teams in MLB.  But I guess when you get your info from the internet it is what it is.

Second, I agree that most people that are anti something always have a product to sell. 

Third, fitness is a huge business. HUGE!

Fourth, agree tendons and ligaments are not the same.

Fifth, once again this topic was not directed about what professionals do, but rather about 12 year olds having arm issues. Does anyone know if this product is recommended for that age group?  I do believe that you, roothog were the one who posted the info against anti icing. I know, I know you were recommending another alternative (for 12 year olds).  

Sixth, do yo get where I am coming from Mr roothog?  Probably not but I dont care.

 

 

I searched the internet and have not come up with any pitcher saying that this product says what the people who endorse or sell it say it does.  This is not to say that I do not believe that the people who endorse or sell or have their clients use these type of products are not good at what they do. They are all probably very good at what they do, for sure.  On the sites that sell the product (that are not training sites  associated with the product) there are no reviews by people who have bought the product, that I have found.

 

I am sorry that you do not understand what I am talking about, I guess I am not as educated as you, Mr Roothog to get my point across.  All I asked was could anyone come up with one ML pitcher who feels that  it is what it is advertised to be, or it is not. Or that they did recover quicker and last season had no issues with their arm? Can anyone do that?  

 

I found this though, but since you are so much more proficient in the use of the internet maybe you could come up with something else. Read through. maybe you can help this guy out Root!

 

http://www.mobilitywod.com/for...ks-vs-a-tens-unit/p1

 

And kudos to McCloven who seems to be able to provide much more meaningful discussion on injuries, which essentially this topic is referring to,  that are occurring at younger and younger ages.

 

Ice or no ice.

 

 

mcloven, thanks for the useful post.  Ties this together nicely.

I think this Marc Pro thing is just an e-stim machine.  I'm not sure, I haven't done much research, but if that is what it is, I got one when I was playing for like $50.  There are many brands out there.   A lot of pitchers when I was playing would use the e-stim under the ice.  I just liked it by itself.  It felt like a massage which I liked when I was sore.  I shot this vid in early 2010.  Excuse the camera quality as I was still learning how to make nice videos.  There is an affiliate link in the video but I don't mean to post it to get you to buy one, just thought it was relevant to the topic and would help some of you out.  Plus there are probably newer models available.  So do your research and consult a doctor before using one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWDTRUohfmo

What you are describing is a TENS unit. An e-stim unit is used to stimulate the nerves. This blocks pain and has it's uses for pitchers, but the Marc Pro is an ems unit which stimulated muscles, not nerves. For example, someone with back pain would get a lot of use out of a TENS unit, but wouldn't have much use for an ems unit. For a pitcher, on the other hand, we're actually looking to increase bloodflow through the muscle and to apply controlled retraction and expantion of the muscle.Here's a link to a TENS unit review site which explains the difference.

 

http://www.tensunitreviews.net/tens-vs-ems/

Out of curiosity, I looked into this a little.  The best description I found in my limited research came from a company that sells all kinds of TENS and muscle stimulation units.  I think this Marc Pro is basically an Electronic Muscle Stimulator (EMS).  There is a difference between the TENS and EMS:

 

How to Choose Between an Electronic Muscle Stimulator and TENS Unit

Electronic Muscle Stimulators technically are TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulators) devices, the difference being which nerves in your body are stimulated during electrotherapy. EMS Machines are designed to stimulate muscle motor nerves while TENS devices stimulate sensory nerve endings. Both types of treatment work by generating electrical impulses that stimulate nerves through the skin causing muscles controlled by those nerves to react by contracting.

 

With that being said, there are WAY cheaper ways to go than spending $600 on an EMS.  Here is a link to a combination TENS/EMS unit for $65 on this site:

 

http://www.activeforever.com/b...s-and-ems-combo-unit

 

I don't think you could go wrong with this.