College pitching coaching

Expanding on the topic: How do you know what is a good pitching coach? What separates a great one from the rest of the pack? (For example, some of the college pc's i know, have philosophies that are specifically designed for metal bat play -- they tend to focus on the outside of the plate -- and dont really throw inside (essentially conceding the inside to the batter). (Before anyone goes on to say that that approach is a losing one, the program is a d1 power which has been very successful -- especially for a private school.)

There are also coaches who oversue pitchers. A friend pointed out every first round pick from a certain powerhouse over a period of years had surgery within a year of turning pro. Pitching recruits find out about coaches by discussing philosophy with them, reputation and word of mouth.

Goosegg: (nice screen name BTW)

This is a very interesting subject for pitchers and those looking at pitching coaches and colleges.

To answer your question one that can communicate effectively with the student and transfer his knowledge effectively. I am not going to get into pitching philosophy or this thread will convert into Tom House vs. Mike Marshall smack down.

My son has had maybe 10 different coaches over the years. He has got positive information from each of them. He has also received “bad teaches” from some of them and because of this I think it is important to be a student of the craft you are learning and continually see what the current thought is on a particular area. A “current” coach would not teach stuff that was taught 20 or even 10 years ago today. So the other thing that is important is to find a coach that is looking to continually improve himself and stay current in his craft.

As far as good pitching coaches at colleges, I think you need to do research into a giving college and formulate your own opinion. There are just too many programs out there to broad-brush good or bad pitching coaches. As RJM pointed out talk to them ask questions.

Regarding Handke, kids develop at different rates, my experience is that tall kids develop slower than shorter ones. Everyone assumes a 6’5” kid is going to throw hard, and well they might, but IMO they tend to peak later than others. This is why you hear the term “projectable” so often with taller kids.

I don’t know the Handke story but I would guess that he took awhile to fill into his frame and it appears he was a multi sport athlete. He was with a D3 program, and he may have not had much individual attention, that together with being multi-sport and maybe a little tall and not a go to guy for the team, he did not develop. Maybe the D3 program did not have a real good pitching coach. Don’t really know.

I suspect he is just now filling into his body and is now receiving some good coaching and all of a sudden it has clicked with him and he is getting it together. Great for him and great for the team that drafted him at 1237.

Most college P coaches are not paid. Many of them have little or no pitching knowledge. What is most concerning is that they don't know what to look for and to correct. My son had 4 different PCs over 4 years. I recently found out he had been pitching injured for the last 2+ years in college. He wouldn't say anything for fear of losing his scholarship.
I just received the results of an injury study on college pitchers that my son participated in. This was a study put on by UNC Chapel hill. The scary thing was that 50% of college pitchers in the study pitched when they had sore arms . That included shoulder and elbow pain to the extent they had to take pain relievers.
One of the reason MiLB pitchers have surgery is that they are checked for problems by team medical staff. Things that went undetected are now exposed..

quote:

Originally posted by Goosegg:
Expanding on the topic: How do you know what is a good pitching coach? What separates a great one from the rest of the pack? (For example, some of the college pc's i know, have philosophies that are specifically designed for metal bat play -- they tend to focus on the outside of the plate -- and dont really throw inside (essentially conceding the inside to the batter). (Before anyone goes on to say that that approach is a losing one, the program is a d1 power which has been very successful -- especially for a private school.)

Good topic.
Huge reason son went out of state was to work with Kevin O'Sullivan, who I really didn't know much about until we began our homework. It was a good choice, not only did he work consistantly on refining son's mechanics, he prepared him for the college game as well as for the professional game.

I realize that not everyone has the opportunity to work under such a knowledgeable coach, but for a player who will be pitcher only who wishes to reach the next level, this is very important in the consideration of where you might want to spend your next 3-4 years, you do not need to work under an A+ pitching coach but you need to watch for pitcher abuse and know that the pitching coach is minding the pitchers, who knows them better than anyone. In 3 years he was only allowed once to pitch a complete game, but most likely could have had more. That's the way he manages his pitchers and that's important for later on, JMO. Unfortunetly son has had some issues, but it is not from overuse.

My son has a friend in his organization that was a first rounder, attended Baylor and he was the workhorse during their run for Omaha that year (also his draft year in 2005 hitting close to 100mph). He has had 3 operations since being drafted and possibly never play the game again.

BHD,
I am not sure where you get the fact that most college p coaches are not paid. Not sure if you can blame your son's injury on the program he attended and 4 different p coaches, he didn't throw enough innings to consider overuse. And it is every pitchers responsibility to tell their coaches or managers that they are hurt. You don't lose your scholarship over injury, you can lose it by just not getting the job done and if you are hurt and hide it, you only see more bench time than playing time. I also have to tell you that the coaches and medical staff at son's college were just as attentive if not more than in pro ball. In college you have an issue you are off to the doctor that day, or next, in milb, you have to wait for the organization to decide what they want to do, and this can take time.

TPM if you look at the reported equity in sports it tells how many coaches are paid and how much they are paid in total.
Did I say he was over used ?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Most college P coaches are not paid. Many of them have little or no pitching knowledge. What is most concerning is that they don't know what to look for and to correct. My son had 4 different PCs over 4 years. I recently found out he had been pitching injured for the last 2+ years in college. He wouldn't say anything for fear of losing his scholarship.

No, you did not say he was overused..in college anyway, but seems that you are making reference that since he had 4 different p coaches who didn't know what they were doing, but if son was hurt and didn't say anything how were they to know? How can you make corrections when one is injured.

To be honest with you, I don't know of any pitchers who got worse going to college, overused yes, but not worse in skills and ability.

Can you provide a list of programs, especially in D1, where coaches don't get paid.

quote:

Many of them have little or no pitching knowledge. What is most concerning is that they don't know what to look for and to correct. My son had 4 different PCs over 4 years. I recently found out he had been pitching injured for the last 2+ years in college. He wouldn't say anything for fear of losing his scholarship.

BHD,
I just don't get you.
On another thread, and many before that, you post/boast about your getting your son a "max" scholarship.
Now, in this thread clearly assert the lack of knowledge of those coaches injured your son's arm.
If both are true, it seems that you did not do your due diligence.
From what you are posting, you negotiated the scholarship.
You negotiated what you wanted for your son.
You required the big schollie from a coaching staff and now state those coaches were not skilled enough to coach effectively at college baseball. In fact, you clearly state their lack of skills caused your son to be injured for 2 years.
Looks like you put money first and let your son take the risk and consequences of that decision.
It is to his credit he did so well academically.

TPM he had a great P coach in his freshman and Sr year. The 2 in the middle were terrible as far as catching the mechanical issues. He did complain about a minor discomfort in his shoulder near the end of his soph year but said it felt okay after throwing a bit. He and another LHP led the team in ERA and he led the team in OBA until a few games at the end of the season. The other LHP had TJ surgery last year.
I asked him why he didn't talk to the coaches and he said they didn't think it was anything serious. He is not the type to make a fuss. About a month before the end of his SR year he told his Mom his shoulder was really hurting and he hoped it would hold up until he was done.
I can't explain why he did that. It still bothers him a little .

InfD if you think about what I have said . I said BB wasn't that important to us in our decision.
It is hard to anticipate changes in P staff. As I said the 1st guy was great and quit because the HC wouldn't give him more control over the pitchers.

quote:

I said BB wasn't that important to us in our decision.

In the DIII thread, you posted how the maximum amount of the scholarship was so important.
With that thread saying you wanted the biggest baseball scholarship you could negotiate, and this one saying baseball was "not that important to us," that probably says about all that needs to be said, in my view.

I know you have an issue with what I have said. That is your problem.
i have always said that we went for max scholarship or my son stayed here . College here is a quarter of what you pay in the US. Simple economics.
I don't give a **** what you think.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM he had a great P coach in his freshman and Sr year. The 2 in the middle were terrible as far as catching the mechanical issues. He did complain about a minor discomfort in his shoulder near the end of his soph year but said it felt okay after throwing a bit. He and another LHP led the team in ERA and he led the team in OBA until a few games at the end of the season. The other LHP had TJ surgery last year.
I asked him why he didn't talk to the coaches and he said they didn't think it was anything serious. He is not the type to make a fuss. About a month before the end of his SR year he told his Mom his shoulder was really hurting and he hoped it would hold up until he was done.
I can't explain why he did that. It still bothers him a little .

Oh, so he didn't have an injury? Or he did? He had it for two years of just at the end? What is it?
He led the team in ERA?
I am not sure you realize how much harm your above implication can do to hurt a program.
How hurt could he have been if he didn't ask to have it checked out, coaches are not doctors, they send their players to the team doctor when a player has an issue. Why didn't he let you know? I am sure you wouold have advised him to get a docs opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I know you have an issue with what I have said. That is your problem.
i have always said that we went for max scholarship or my son stayed here . College here is a quarter of what you pay in the US. Simple economics.
I don't give a **** what you think.

Yes, you have said that you went for the money, you advise parents to go for the most money, but that is NOT good advice, a good example of why is because of what posted above about your son.

I am not really sure what happened to your son is relevant to this topic anyway.

They fired the 2 pitching coaches and have a good one now.
They also fired the HC. Hopefully they will get things straightened out.
As far as due diligence. talked to 3 pitchers that went there and they were happy with the old coaches. I do believe I have warned people about THE COACH REVOLVING DOORS. happens QUITE OFTEN.

quote:

That is your problem.

No, it isn't.
You are on this site throwing a group of coaches under the bus and saying their lack of skill caused your son to be hurt for 2 years. You are the one suggesting the coaches who gave the big scholarship created an environment where your son could not say anything for fear of losing his scholarship, but yet in other threads say they increased his scholarship both his junior and senior year.
Saying I wanted and negotiated the maximum scholarship for my son, but "baseball wasn't important for us" clearly says there was a problem. It isn't mine. It isn't the coaches who gave the big scholarship.
My bet is you never told them 'baseball wasn't important for us" when you negotiated the big scholarship. .
In fact, baseball and being successful was the way those coaches tried to make a living. It meant everything to them. When they were not successful, they got fired.
Nope, that isn't my problem,at all.

quote:

Yes, you have said that you went for the money, you advise parents to go for the most money, but that is NOT good advice, a good example of why is because of what posted above about your son.

I am not really sure what happened to your son is relevant to this topic anyway

Isn't this thread about P coaches ?
Not good advice ? Well if our focus was on academics and not pro ball which 90% of the posters will be facing , it is a reasonable advice. Many of my son's teammates owe over $70,000 after 4 years.

I am finished explaining to you 2 Neanderthals who are just trying to be ignorant.
The coaches got fired for just causes. In fact 2 players were leaving until they heard the coaches were going. At the end of the soph year 13 SRs graduated and wrote derogatory exit letters about the coaches.
The 1st 5 guys told the coach at the exit meeting they weren't coming back at the end of my son's JR year. My son was the 6th and the only one who said he was coming back. I felt sorry for him but it was clear he had to go.
You may not think it is nice to talk about this but it is reality and it goes on all over the country.

Many programs go though coaching changes, usually because the coach they have replaced has left for a better opportunity, there are VERY few coaches that actually get fired because they do poor jobs. You will always hear about the big conference guys getting the boot, but usually they are good coaches, but not given enough time to turn around programs.

There are many parents of players who post here whose sons have gone through coaching changes, yet they managed to survive and did well.

I agree the program your son attended may have had issues, all programs have issues, but your son seems to have more than most, for some reason or another. I agree with infielddad, you can't talk out of one side of your mouth, it was all about the money, then blame coaches for a possible injury when you let everyone think you called the shots in your sons recruiting. How can you say it wasn't about bb? Of course it was, that's why your son got a scholarship!

My comment on overuse BTW, was that if your son was overused (which he wasn't) by all means blast the coaches.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I am finished explaining to you 2 Neanderthals who are just trying to be ignorant.
The coaches got fired for just causes. In fact 2 players were leaving until they heard the coaches were going. At the end of the soph year 13 SRs graduated and wrote derogatory exit letters about the coaches.
The 1st 5 guys told the coach at the exit meeting they weren't coming back at the end of my son's JR year. My son was the 6th and the only one who said he was coming back. I felt sorry for him but it was clear he had to go.
You may not think it is nice to talk about this but it is reality and it goes on all over the country.

What does that have to do with an injury your son never said anything about?

I won't speak for my intelligance or lack of, but in no way do I or anyone else here think that infielddad is ignorant.

quote:

The coaches got fired for just causes. In fact 2 players were leaving until they heard the coaches were going. At the end of the soph year 13 SRs graduated and wrote derogatory exit letters about the coaches.

Like I said, these coaches worked with you to provide the maximum scholarship for your son.
You state on this site that baseball was not important for "us."
If it feels right for you to throw those coaches under the bus, that says a lot.
Since those coaches provided, based on a video and your continued negotiations with them, a large scholarship, when baseball was not important "for us," that says even more.
Your posts in this thread could well be a reason many college coaches are forced to treat things like a business.
It sure appears you did and used the maximum caveat emptor, buyer beware, since baseball was "not that important to us," but "I'm not telling you that."

There are tons of bad coaches in college (and pros also I bet). But there are a lot of good ones too that work hard furthering their knowledge on player development. I am sure they are thinking about their staff and doing whatever they can to make them successful.

That may be a tough thing to find, and a lot of times you don't know any of this until you're there. But I have to believe they are out there.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Most college P coaches are not paid. Many of them have little or no pitching knowledge.

Can you cite the basis for this comment?

Are you talking across all divisions and NAIA or just D1?

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/In...393a32333a333520414d

This little 3 way ****ing contest is getting old.

So, back to the original topic regarding college pitching coaches. And I will use a player near and dear to my heart as an example. Son plays at a D-1 school that is usually ranked in the top 20. I would say more, but frankly there are some of you that I don't trust.

Last year's pitching coach could be described as old school, but that's not really the best term. I think it would be better to say his approach was a bit dated. Running consisted of lots of distance running, and very little sprinting. Conditioning consisted of a lot of bench, squats, etc. Stuff that you would get from a HS football coach. Kids were taught to throw "doorknob" sliders, with hard supination of the forearm. Terms like pansies and pu$$ies were frequently used. Reporting injuries often provoked a strong negative reaction. After a time most of the kids quit reporting pain at all for fear that they would end up on his S--- list.
Players were discourage from listening to anything that Tom House had to say about pitching.

New coach is night and day different. Running program has been modified to include LOTS of sprint work. Old guy's 180 foot long toss "program" has been replaced with something akin to the Alan Jaeger max out approach. Conditioning has been modified to include more rotational core work. Kids are having evaluations to help determine what they need to work on mechanically and strengthwise.

Players love new coach. Old coach was universally disliked.

Old guy called a great game. Don't know how the new guy will do, or if he'll even call pitches. What will the results be in the spring? I have no idea. But I am thrilled with the new guy.

I should also point out that the old guy had pitched a little at a small DI. I don't think the new guy even pitched in college. But he has obviously busted his butt to educate himself. I'll take a guy like this over a guy that hasn't learned a thing since college ANY DAY.

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It was decent and honorable of you to mention the former coach's strength...that being he capably called a good great game.

I wish for your son's school to have much success on the diamond with their new coach.




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quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/In...393a32333a333520414d

I see nowhere in there where it mentions pitching coaches at all, let alone how much they make or how much they know.

Yes woody, my son's HC had redeeming qualities. He was a very good recruiter. The JR year P coach had non. He also was generally hated by all the pitchers.. The soph year P coach was a nice guy but admitted he knew very little about pitching. He did try hard to get up to speed and he was well liked.
The freshman P coach was a great P coach. Ran a pitching clinic and had Tom House attend. The SR year PC I think will be good. He also runs a P clinic and hopefully will get things on track
Where P coaches are very important is that they have to recognize mechanical break down. All pitcher have a tendency to stray as do hitters. Pitchers can develop problems which is what happened to my son. He started to drop his elbow down and was separating his arm from his upper body as he tried to leverage more velocity. He went from being a very good pitcher to a terrible pitcher. I corrected the mechanics the summer before his SR year and for a couple weeks he was back on his game but gradually drifted back to some of the issues.
If you look at this link you will see how little if anything assistant coaches are paid if anything at all. Yes there are good P coaches out there but how do you ensure that they will be there for 4 years while your son attends.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/In...393a32333a333520414d

CPLZ they are the assistant coaches which is listed in coaches salaries.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
CPLZ they are the assistant coaches which is listed in coaches salaries.

I am having a problem searching the site where it breaks down assistant coaches salaries for baseball by for that group. Could you please provide a direct link that shows that data?

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I didn't make it clear BHD, but I was referring to MTH's situation with my last post.

With that said, I am pleased to read your most recent comments regarding the various coaches your son played for. Where praise is due you have offered it. Where criticism is due you leveled it.

We have been around more than a few coaches who sorely lacked the skills to be successful and more importantly lacked the skills to take their players forward and prepare them well for the next level.

By experiencing that type of coach it really makes a good coach, one who has everything put together, very valuable and tremendously appreciated.

Becoming a good and successful coach is not at all easy, but should always be rewarding! My hat is off to all of those good coaches out there. I know they all worked hard to become the good coach that they are...and they will continue to work hard. Why? Because they love the game!




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I tried that and it kept giving me the main page.
The assistant salaries are at the button on the coach salaries.
If you select a college and pull up their data , the coaches salaries are found by clicking on that heading. It tells how many coaches and what their average salaries are. One friend who graduated from my son's college was paid $12000 at a D1 but it was a credit against his MED fees.

Gw I totally understood your comment.

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quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I tried that and it kept giving me the main page.
The assistant salaries are at the button on the coach salaries.
If you select a college and pull up their data , the coaches salaries are found by clicking on that heading. It tells how many coaches and what their average salaries are.

So, you don't really have a basis for the comment...

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Most college P coaches are not paid. Many of them have little or no pitching knowledge.

correct?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
One friend who graduated from my son's college was paid $12000 at a D1 but it was a credit against his MED fees.

This is typical of a volunteer assistant slot, of which, each team is allowed one.

Sooooo. What are the qualities of a good college pitching coach? Is a discipile of the Tom House school of pitching a + or -, or just a starting point to understanding what not to do.

I contend the reason most PC's move around so much is that their looking to become HC's. I would also contend that overuse is brought on by the HC.

Over the years, I've become a firm believer in the 20-80 rule.

Regardless of sport or level of play, the 20-80 rule applies. Twenty percent of the coaches are good, to excellent. Eighty percent are poor, to downright lousy.

I've always felt blessed when one of our kids got a twenty percenter.

I know plenty of players that went to top programs, didn't feel that they were getting what they should in instruction(pitching or hitting) and sought out instruction during the off season, instead of laying blame that they didn't do well because of the coaching staff. Don't some of you do that now for your younger players? You may like the coach a lot, but you may feel that instruction is lacking, so you seek pitching or hitting lessons elsewhere, that doesn't change in college and it doesn't change on the pro level either. It is also the responsibility during recruiting to understand the pitching philosophy of the coach. My son's p coach is a young guy (even younger back then), but his philosophy falls under traditional mechanics. Not sure if you all know of a first rounder who worked under a well known pitching coach, he didn't care for his philosophy or his attitude. I am sure that many of you whose sons have been to college will tell you that they may not have liked every coach they had, but that doesn't mean that you lay blame for business you should have taken care of yourself.

It's gonna be hit or miss wherever you go, and understand that at most programs, there IS a designated paid hitting coach and pitching coach and HC allow them to do their jobs without interference. Some HC are just figure heads that are too busy for instruction, others are their own hitting and pitching coaches, this is where one has to do their homework and who the player will work under. I still don't get the comment about most pitching coaches not getting paid. That may be true in some cases where programs are almost broke.

I can't stand it when people lay blame on coaches, there are alternatives.

Ok then, exactly what is the role and/or responsibility of the pitching coach at the collegiate level.