Defusing the HM problem

I have been on both sides of this issue.

As a coach, with some parents using their influence to destroy the team morale and cohesiveness in an effort to promote their own son's at the expense of everything else. Parents who use "political pull" to get decisions from League Boards to promote their own teams to set up the "outcome" before the season is played out.

And as parents unhappy about the treatment of our son as a minor in one BB program...where we pulled our son out of the program.

Let's define our terms here. HM meaning "high maintenance" or parents that find fault with most everything, because they could run things better, coach better?

Where they feel that their son is not appreciated for his talents and not been used in a role where his talents could shine through to the exclusion of every other player...is that what we mean by a HM?

The best approach to avoid all of this is to set down the rules for everyone at the beginning of the season as we use to do when I my son played Pop Warner Football.

For some reason in youth BB they do not do this to the extent of the youth football programs. Maybe it is because in youth football the kids have to submit to a certifiable weight validation every week and parents realize that any unpleasant behavior by them can have a direct impact on whether their kid sits or plays. Youth football teams have 33 players per team, so a coaches best friend against HM parents is the bench.

That would be my recommendation. At the start of the season have compulsory league meeting for all players and parents where hand out written rules are given to each player and their families. Have the Board president set down the "do and don'ts" up front.

Most of the time this will not be done...why because as is with most of these situations the worse offenders are the parents who run the leagues. That has been my experience.

RR,

The other thread on this topic is real interesting, and so I just thought I would chime in a bit.

Most college level coaches have no problems with parents. Most problem parents show their colors during youth sport activities. of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

In many coaching circles, we do not refer to such parents as High Maintenance, but rather as "Helicoptor Parents".......they are always hovering over their children and their children's activities.

I will not say that all HM or helicoptor parents have negative influences on their kids or the teams. Some are very good parents and are positive influences.

There are parents who are low maintenance who can be worse for kids/teams than the ones who are perceived as high maintenance.

I am just happy to have low maintenance children.

Aparent: I posted some comments on the thread 'Should the parents be a negative factor?' on page five and I don't know how to transfer them here so I won't be redundant here. I do have some other thoughts on this topic so thanks for starting it.

For those parents that recognize high maintenance (HM) parents and work hard not to slip into this type of behavior themselves they hopefully will be rewarded by their athlete getting the nod over an athlete with HM type parents with everthing else being equal. Which coach,upon knowing all the facts, would select a headache situation into his program? The possible exception of course is a HM coach! They do exist I'm sure.

The common wisdom is to match an athlete and his characteristics to an ideal,complementary program which necessarily includes the influence of the coach (the coach may very well be the most important factor in making a decision).

My point is that by comparison if you are not a HM parent then you and your athlete will probably look quite attractive next to a HM parent and their athlete. If HM parents and HM coaches attract each other than a good match has been found and the common wisdom has prevailed.

Attempts to manage or diffuse the HM's carnage would be difficult but if it could be demonstrated to them that their bad behavior actually goes counter to what they are so desparately trying to achieve then it may sway their behavior towards the better.

Anyone else have thoughts on this matter?

Doesn't almost every team, regardless of the sport, have that negative parent syndrom? I've coached youth football, basketball and baseball for well over 20 years and I cannot remember a team that did not have that parent, or one that was on the edge. And, not once in that 20+ years did they ever dictate the direction of the team or the league.

With every "do and don't" list there will constantly be new additions. There is only one rule and that is "If you cannot abide by the same rules of sportsmanship that we ask of your kids you will be asked to leave the event and if you don't agree with the League policy you and your child can withdraw from the League".

If any program was consistantly having parental issues and my kid was affected by it you can bet your bottom dollar that my kid would be playing somewhere else. The blame cannot always be put on the "bad parent" because all they are doing is pushing the envelope of rules set down by the league officials. If the League cannot stand up and promote the fact the game is for the kids, then, the League itself has a problem. A strong parent base that the league develops takes care of the issues on the spectator sise of the fence. There is strength in numbers, but some Leagues insist on having total control, and, many times parents do not like that type control when their kids are involved.

The coaches from my son's new 12U team made parents, players, and coaches sign an agreement prior to the season. As parents it is our responsibility to be a parent and not a coach. The players are to give 100%, be repectful and supportive, and bad attitudes will be benched and for further offenses, be asked to leave the team irregardless of how good he is. The coaches agree to give 100% and to teach the team to the best of thier ability and be positive role models. We have several "outspoken" parents and so far we have had nothing but a great time. We knew adhead of time what the expectations were and what outcomes would be. The team is comprised of all-star LL players from several leagues. All are good players so in many instances, your ability is only a small factor toward playing time. Coaches look for other aspects of being a "ballplayer". As a matter of fact, they played and won 4 games over the weekend and one of the biggest complimets was how supportive the bench was. No complaints from the kids that sat out (which were definately starters in any league). Anyway, parents knew upfront what the rules were and know that their behavior may have an impact on who is chosen for the spring team. I think its working great and now I can concentrate on being mom and not trying to figure out what went wrong with each at bat.

Aparent: I strongly agree with PGstaff's post on the other thread (pg. 2) that most parents who have ballplayers in college have figured out this HM/behavior problem. It would be good advice for parents of younger players to seek out advice from parents that have successfully accomplished the journey from T-Ball to college and beyond. This website is an invaluable asset for these parents to use. Since becoming a member just a few short months ago I have not been shy about letting parents and players know the benefits of this site. Our oldest is in college now and although he is in a good situation this site would have been helpful in our college search. We have three others following him so you can bet that we will use this site often in their search.

The coaches from my son's new 12U team made parents, players, and coaches sign an agreement prior to the season. As parents it is our responsibility to be a parent and not a coach. The players are to give 100%, be repectful and supportive, and bad attitudes will be benched and for further offenses, be asked

From a coaching perspective, it is inherit in the beast. You must have a plan in dealing with this issue. Our plan is to have a Parent's Meeting at the beginning of each year. The veteran parents can almost recite word for word what is going to be said. We also make a handout (7 pages) that outlines our philosophy, talks about being the parents of athletic children, outlines our "Qualities of a Baseball Knight" while also outline the process we would ask that they use should they find the need to talk to us. Since we are in such a small community, I already know potential HM Parents and I make special attempts to communicate with them what we expect before their child makes the team. For instance, I might see a parent at a basketball game and they might want me to know every stat that Johnny has since 4th grade. I'll be courteous but tell them that I really don't care. I also make sure that they know that, while I enjoy talking to them, we won't have any conversation such as this during the year. Well, I could go on and on.

What we do is right for us and has worked well for us for a long time. However, it might not be right for you. There isn't a one size fits all answer for this issue. Believe me, I've seen this issue in EXTREME FORMS and yet, we've had success. JMHO!

How about the parent who takes their kid from HS to HS one a year for 4 years in search of the coach who will treat their son the way "they" want him to be treated/

How do you handle that?

I think many are thinking of high maintenance as "only" causing trouble.

Often (HM) involves things that appear harmless, but require more "maintenance or time or work" for the coaching staff.

Then there are other (HM) problems that do include potential for big problems.

I think "TPM" said it correctly when she said (HM) doesn't always include causing trouble.

Sometimes it can simply mean a parent requires too much attention.

My wife probably thinks I'm "HM" within the context of our home...and I think she is very right. My father always told me like-it-is too...I never had to wonder.

My wife prefers the straight-on approach and tells me exactly when I'm getting into the "Double-HM" zone. I know she quickly brought one of our sons out of "Double-HM" zone the other night. She also uses that direct approach with umpires when her son is pitching sometimes too, perhaps making her HM in their eyes?

I also like this approach when it comes to parents or kids on my baseball teams. We just have a little talk and things usually improve from there. I usually appreciate someone telling me when I mess up, as long as its not in anger (unless thats what I deserve )...so I try hard to make sure I'm calm and not angry before giving such feedback. It goes a long way.

The pre season meeting is the place that you nip the problem in the bud. I have always had such meetings.

Let me tell you a little Over The Top HM parent story and how I dealt with it.

It was when my son was 9. He was playing on a 10u travel team and I was not coaching. This was my 1 season in the stands. so I already felt out of place. There were several different styles of OTT HM parents in the stands.

There was the dad who cheered extremely loudly, but only for his son.
There was the mom who had something bad to say about every player, umpire and coach on the field.
There was the grandfather who's mindless non stop chatter was annoying and disturbing, offering useless advise to every player in every situation
There were the parents who had no clue about basic baseball rules and every umpire was out to get their child....
The list goes on and on...

Since I was in the stands, I often brought my video camera to the games. My camera at the time had an integrated microphone that picked up every sound around it. At the end of the season I offered to put together a video presentation for the end of year awards dinner.

I created a really nice video of the teams season. I was lucky enough to capture many of the highlight plays. I edited it down to a nice 10 minute presentation. The best part, that without any extra exiting, many of the annoying attributes of these parents came shinning through on the soundtrack of the video. The video got raves reviews from most of the folks attended, and I made copies for everyone. Though I never sat in the stands again, I have heard from other parents that the OTT HM parents have been a lot less OTT HM in the following years. I guess experiencing yourself first hand on video can be an eye opening experience.

I really liked several of the posts on the other thread but I did not want hijack his thread.

We have a unique environment here with many, many old timers, and many, many rising stars. How wonderful it would be if we could find a way to help the HM parents understand that you don't have to cause anyone headaches to help your son reach the next level.

From my viewpoint and experiences....if you look at some of those baseball parents you would classify as "HM"...you would probably find that it is a pervasive problem for them and they are "HM" in many areas of their life, not just at the ballpark. You aren't just trying to change a "specific behavior"....but sometimes a personality type, which is a much more daunting task. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way they can learn to control their personality is after they see the damage it can truly do to someone they love. I'm speaking in generalities here....of course there are exceptions.

.

Let me ask a couple questions that are likley to set the dogs loose on the HM subject, but ones that I think need to be asked ...

Is there any correlation between demanding, high results oriented, controlling, HM parents and successful players?

Is there value at all in having those demanding, expect it to get done yesterday, HM, kinds of parents around a team?

Before you answer, give it some thought. Not advocating, or answering...just putting it out there for discussion....

.

quote:

Is there any correlation between demanding, high results oriented, controlling, HM parents and successful players?

In a competitive environment, ie: life, you are either predator or prey. jmo

observer44

I would say you can easily be a high demanding results oriented person and still not be HM.

An example: Maybe practise isn't running smooth enough to suit you. Well, you can monopolize the coach with complaints or you can offer to shag balls or hit fungo's or whatever else the coach could use help with (and let him choose). Both are controlling - one is HM, one is not.

As for your other queston, I have seen some darn good players whose parents were pretty laid back. The drive and motivation has to come from the player - not his parents.

Perhaps it should be looked at as the young mans first venture into the "real world"-- college baseball is a business and do not ever forget it

Perhaps it's worth looking at success in the "real world". Jim Collins in his work on the role great leaders play in transforming good companies to great companies writes "... leaders blend the paradoxical combination of deep personal humility with intense professional will ... How do leaders manifest humility? They routinely credit others, external factors and good luck for their companies' success. But when results are poor, they blame themselves. They also act quitely, calmly and determinedly ... they are stoic in their resolve to do whatever it takes to produce great results."

Hopefully, we behave in this way and teach our sons likewise.

Observer44 asked: Is there any correlation between demanding, high results oriented, controlling, HM parents and successful players?

Is there value at all in having those demanding, expect it to get done yesterday, HM, kinds of parents around a team?
***********************************************

Well we all know that our psychology classes helped us to identify the various personality types.

Can we get away from the "Alpha males" and "Alpha Females"? I don't think so.

The "good" Alpha's have learned to be empathetic, putting themselves in the other guy's shoes, sort-to-speak. Bad "Alphas" are narcissistic, self-absorbed, and oblivious to how they impact other's around them...why because they don't care what anyone else thinks since their opinion is the only one that counts.

I confess, I'm an Alpha male, but I'm not one of those that has to "run" everything. As I have gotten older I realize that my son has to have his chance to succeed or fail on his own merits.

But I also know that if I hadn't pushed him to utilize his God-given talents he probably would not have gone as far either...

Why? Because young boys need direction, and someone to help in finding out the information they need to get the exposure they need, like a mentor to help them deal with the disappointments they will experience as part of the difficult trek that BB will be for them.

Of all the people who can be the "point-of-the-spear" to get through all the BS to help a kid both understand, and ultimately prevail in the competitive nature of the endeavor that BB is...I would take the Alpha males and Alpha females to assign that task.

Let's not kid ourselves, it takes a very large ego with a matching humility to play this game at the top levels. All the kids that weren't sure of themselves have long been gone by the time they get to the college level...

Anyway, that has been my experience.

No offense meant to anyone.

JMO

quote:

Is there any correlation between demanding, high results oriented, controlling, HM parents and successful players?

Successful players have come from all kinds of different parents. Rich, poor, dumb, smart, demanding, easy going, single moms, controlling, etc. You can find examples of just about everything.

quote:

Is there value at all in having those demanding, expect it to get done yesterday, HM, kinds of parents around a team?

Only if they happen to be coaching the team. HM is a description often used by coaches. It is used to describe something they feel is detrimental. College coaches do not use the words HM in a positive way. It is not something they want!

So no matter what we feel is good or bad, right or wrong, There are many college coaches that do not want HM parents, let alone HM players. Therefore, one could say, HM is not a benefit as far as maximum opportunities to the player.

I do believe lots of kids could describe their parents as being HM in their view. Lots of parents could describe their kids as being HM in their view. It’s when the college recruiter sees it as HM in his view, that counts the most. At that point there is no right or wrong opinion… In that instance… It just hurts!!!

It does not destroy the players chances of reaching the top, but it could make it a tougher road.

PGStaff said: So no matter what we feel is good or bad, right or wrong, There are many college coaches that do not want HM parents, let alone HM players. Therefore, one could say, HM is not a benefit as far as maximum opportunities to the player.

*************************************************

How about the HM coach that has a preference for HM players that are "jerks"?

Believe me in my experience that has been a circumstance that happens more then anyone wants to admit instead of HM parents being the issue.

Being a "jerk" does not necessarily mean someone is very "high maintenance", it just means they are a "jerk". (That's a different topic) Still I have never known a coach who goes out looking for the "jerk" ahead of all others. (Unless, the "jerk" is a extremely big talent)

Be it cars, refrigerators, lawn mowers, televisions, employees, parents or players... All things being somewhat equal, would a person want to pay for high or low maintenance?

There might be some, but I've never met a coach that actually prefers HM players. If the player is exceptionally talented a coach might be willing to put up with a bit of maintenance. Enough talent can be very tempting. But all things being equal HM is not a benefit.

Let's just say that these are all, just my opinions. However, I do know many baseball people who share these opinions. No one has to pay attention to them. There's always a chance that I am wrong. Been wrong many times in my life!

Those that care to think about this stuff may or may not benefit. I do believe it's worth thinking about, though.

In case anyone is interested here are two posts from the thread that started this discussion. Sorry for the length.

Posted in another thread.
HIGH MAINTENANCE Player or parent = More effort, time, risk and problems!

LOW MAINTENANCE Player or parent = Less effort, time, risk and problems!

Take it for what it is worth! This doesn’t even pertain to most!

At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I think people need to be more aware of the term “high maintenance”. The following is not meant to offend anyone. It is not directed to any individual. The purpose is to help rather than to judge anyone.

Scouts and College Recruiters often use the words “high maintenance” in describing certain players. Most often it is reserved for some exceptionally talented players, even the very best. Sometimes the talent is so good that it outweighs the maintenance factor. In fact, there are “high maintenance” major league stars.

Sometimes “high maintenance” is used to describe parents. Once again it is used most often when the parents have a very talented son. College coaches tend to put more importance on this than pro scouts. It’s much harder for parents to be a pain in the *** in pro ball.

Just the other day in a conversation with a recruiter from one of the nations’ top programs, the term “high maintenance” was mentioned. The discussion went like this (condensed version)

The Coach: “We are looking for a corner infielder who can really hit and contribute right away.”

Me: What about ****** (name left out, but very, very good player)?

The Coach: “He would be the guy, but we’re not going after him.”

Me: Why? Do you think he will be an early pick?

Coach: “He might be, but the reason we’re not interested is because his dad is too “High Maintenance!”

Now I don’t want to tell people how they should conduct themselves. In fact, many including myself have failed in the conduct department at times. Just thought that maybe this info could help a few parents who might take this the right way. After all, everyone wants the best for their sons and daughters.

It should be said that not all scouts and recruiters place the same importance on things beyond a players ability. Just know that there are many who do look into much more than the players ability. With more time I could provide a list (so could others) of some things that are warning signs (red flags) to recruiters and scouts.

If someone reads this and their first thoughts are defensive, please read it again. It is possible you could be a candidate for that “high maintenance” tag. It doesn’t mean you are a bad parent. You might be the world’s greatest parent. However, if you are deemed “high maintenance” it could affect certain opportunities.

I think those who are scouts and coaches at any level, who have examples of high maintenance parents, would be doing others a big favor by giving examples. (without using names of course)

If some day, just one mom or dad could say…. I didn’t realize it, but I might have been headed in the direction of being labeled a high maintenance parent, but I made the appropriate adjustments. Then we should all be very happy this topic was brought up.

If one mom or dad gets anything out of this, I’ll be glad it was posted!

If no one gets anything out of this post, I apologize for using up the space.

Posted by request in another thread.
justbaseball,

As per your request. By the way, regarding involvement we have had with your son and his parents - You score very high in the "Low Maintenance" department. And very high in the "Good Supportive Family" department. Also very high in the "Extremely Talented Son With Great Makeup" department. I think most parents here are high interest "low maintenance types.

Once at a baseball tournament I saw a father marching from another field. He was looking for me! I knew the father and he would fall under "High Maintenance" in the biggest way. His first words were predictable "I really hate to bi*ch, but... I stopped him in mid sentence and said "If you hate to bi*ch so much, DON'T!

A few examples to get things started.

* = Warning signs of potential for high maintenance
# = Good Sign

* Player has been in a lot of trouble
# Player is a good citizen

* Parents have caused a lot of problems in the past
# Parents are supportive but don’t cause problems

* Players or parents who show any signs of disrespect
# Players or Parents seem to show respect to everyone

* Player who is not respected by his team mates
# Player who is loved by his team mates and coaches

* Players or Parents cut down previous coaches.
# Players or Parents who never cut anyone down

* Players or Parents have excuse for everything
# Players or Parents who don’t use many excuses, but can clearly address the reasonable excuse ie. He just pitched 2 days ago.

* Players or Parents are full of complaints
# Player or Parents who don’t complain even though they might have reason

* Players or parents who believe they have no weaknesses
# Players or Parents who understand there is room for improvement

* Players or Parents take up too much time on unimportant things (shoot the ****)
# Players or Parents who are friendly, but understand time constraints

* Players or Parents who are overly satisfied with accomplishments
# Players or Parents who are confident, but understand there is much more to accomplish

* Parents that need to know everything (Meddlers)
# Parents who get the inside information from their son rather than the coach.

* Players or Parents who think they do know everything
# Too many questions is annoying – Too many answers are unbearable

* Player gives the impression he is a celebrity
# Player understands he is what he is

* Parents give the impression their son is a celebrity
# Parents understand their son is what he is

* Parents who need to discuss (with coaches) their son, or the team, on a daily basis
# Parents who show interest, but don’t become a “Oh no, tell them I’m not in” person

* Parents who give the impression that they are not going to “let their son” go it alone.
# Parents who show their confidence in their son to go it alone

* Parents that show they will get involved if things don’t go just the way they want
# Parents who remain consistent and realistic even when things are not going their way

* Parents that show the potential to be vindictive if things don’t go their way.
# Parents who never seem to have a bad word to say about anyone

That last *, might be the most important! It can cause a college coach to avoid a player completely… no matter how good the player might be.

All those * listed above are warning signs that the player or parent could be more trouble than what it is worth. Some involve time consumtion issues, some are potential head aches, some are not conducive to a healthy team atmousphere, and some can even be dangerous for job security purposes.

If you fit into the # category on everything… you would be very unusual. I would almost think there might be something wrong with you!

There are many more warning signs. Hope others join in and add their thoughts. I really think this is a topic that could benefit a some people and their children.

It would be interesting, PG, if HM parents recognized themselves as HM...or jerks. IMO, they operate under the impression they are supporting or defending their son "as any good parent would". The coach, the other players, whomever, just doesn't understand their son's talents, the situation, what's fair, or the game in general. They are not, in their own minds, behaving badly.

A HM mother at my son's hs was constantly up in the coach's face about PT for her pitcher-son --- he should be a position player when not pitching. I asked her which of the starters should sit so that her son could play and she got confused....it hadn't occurred to her that putting her son on the field meant taking someone else off. But the once-every-five-game start "wasn't fair" to her son and she felt the need to point it out, complete with her ---in her mind --- reasonable solution.

People can justify their actions in an amazing variety of ways. Hence the equal popularity of the unfortunate word "spin".

Orlando,

We were in the coach's face because we didn't want our pitcher son to do anything but pitch (reasonably), he wanted him to play every game, every position that he was needed. We finally compromised on first base, DH when not pitching.
Does that make me one of those parents? Poor coach.

A big thank you to PG for their awesome post. And Orlando made some great points as well.

Most of us recognize a "jerk" when we see one. Sometimes we can recognize a "HM" parent also.

Recognizing the HM parent is a step in the right direction. My guess is that many if not most of the HM parents do NOT place themself in this category.

The problem with that is that it does not matter if you consider yourself a HM parent. It does not matter if other parents see you as a HM parent. What does matter, is how the coach's see you.

The problem is that sometimes the HM parent is a friend (or parents of one of sons friends). Do you simply cross your cross your fingers and hope their child never suffers the consequences or their parents behavior?

Are there other appropriate options?

After all, that is my primary reason for starting this post.

How do you (and should you even try) convince a friend (or team mates parent) to take a step back. How can you convince them that in doing so they will actually be helping their son more than they are right now.

By all means, there are times when a parent should get involved. There is also a point at which the parent becomes too involved.

Are there tactful ways to help a parent realize they are skirting, or may even have crossed that line?

PGstaff: I agree wholeheartedly with your post yesterday. College recruiters do not want to deal with a HM parent or HM player. Everything else being equal who in their right mind would want to deal with a HM parent or player? Good, decent, and respectful behavior should be rewarded. Bad behavior, regardless of which type it is or what the motivation is, should be shunned. Good behavior =reward... bad behavior = no reward. Simple!

Orlando posted:

quote:

I asked her which of the starters should sit so that her son could play and she got confused.

Can you bring her to my next poker game?

Aparent: If the parents and player have a say so in the selection of which team or organization to play for they should really do their homework and try to learn who the "jerk" parents are and who the "jerk" coaches are. It certainly is true that in some regions the number of teams to select from may be slim and your ability to choose a desirable team may be limited. For most,though, this is not the case. This past summer our family had four players in travel ball and we have been participating for over six years now. We have learned the ropes well and now when choosing a team we focus primarily on the quality of the families and the quality of the coaching staff. In the early years we focused solely on whether the team was a "winner" since this is what we thought was most important. We were wrong. Some teams loaded with talent were also loaded with problems (huge egos, unrealistic expectations, poor politics, selfishness,etc.). Life is too short to spend cherished baseball time with a lousy crowd and the game deserves better. Good organizations, top to bottom, are the successful ones. Hitch your horse to one of those! Which would you want to be assciated with? An organization that may very well win most often yet is riddled with bad behavior... or an organization that also wins often but does so with civility and class. Different strokes for different folks. The choice is yours!

PGStaff

Let's see how my perception of how my son and my wife and I behave around our coaches and the ball park in general...which has nothing to do with my sole interaction here on the HSBBWEB. So I will mark off how I think I would do based upon your table of behavior


* Player has been in a lot of trouble...no
# Player is a good citizen...yes

* Parents have caused a lot of problems in the past...no
# Parents are supportive but don’t cause problems...yes

* Players or parents who show any signs of disrespect...no
# Players or Parents seem to show respect to everyone...yes

* Player who is not respected by his team mates...no
# Player who is loved by his team mates and coaches...yes

* Players or Parents cut down previous coaches...yes, not ever at ballpark, but we have our opinions about certain types of coaches.
# Players or Parents who never cut anyone down...no, and never around the ball park

* Players or Parents have excuse for everything...no
# Players or Parents who don’t use many excuses, but can clearly address the reasonable excuse ie. He just pitched 2 days ago....yes

* Players or Parents are full of complaints...no, never to the coach. May discuss an issue with our son.
# Player or Parents who don’t complain even though they might have reason...we may question something if we don't have a clear picture.

* Players or parents who believe they have no weaknesses...no
# Players or Parents who understand there is room for improvementyes

* Players or Parents take up too much time on unimportant things (shoot the ****)...no
# Players or Parents who are friendly, but understand time constraints...yes

* Players or Parents who are overly satisfied with accomplishments...no
# Players or Parents who are confident, but understand there is much more to accomplish...yes

* Parents that need to know everything (Meddlers)...no, but it would be nice to get a roster, and a schedule
# Parents who get the inside information from their son rather than the coach....yes

* Players or Parents who think they do know everything...no, but as like eveeryone else, we have our opinions
# Too many questions is annoying – Too many answers are unbearable...never talk to the coach, unless he comes over and wants to talk to us.

* Player gives the impression he is a celebrity...not my son, he's to layed back
# Player understands he is what he is...yes, that's our son

* Parents give the impression their son is a celebrity...no way, our son wouldn't allow it
# Parents understand their son is what he is...yes, very proud of him

* Parents who need to discuss (with coaches) their son, or the team, on a daily basis...Very seldom, if ever speak to the coach, no need to.
# Parents who show interest, but don’t become a “Oh no, tell them I’m not in” person...no, but we reserve the right to left alone if we don't want to speak to someone

* Parents who give the impression that they are not going to “let their son” go it alone...yes, but we do not interfere in his activities
# Parents who show their confidence in their son to go it alone...yes, sent him to Australia, alone, and Florida alone and he wasn't even 18 yet.

* Parents that show they will get involved if things don’t go just the way they want...never, only if asked, or son is being abused
# Parents who remain consistent and realistic even when things are not going their way...son plays baseball, we don't

* Parents that show the potential to be vindictive if things don’t go their way....no, but we expect individuals to live up to their commitments
# Parents who never seem to have a bad word to say about anyone...no, recommendations work both ways...coaches need to remember that


I would like to see others here take the test and be honest about it.

Thanks PGStaff things don't always come out the way they appear sometimes.

RR,

It really wasn't meant to be a test, but thanks for showing some interest.

You sure are right about things not always being as they appear.

TPM, I don't know.....did you behave yourself while negotiating?

AParent. I think that a lot of us here, being current/former coaches, knowledgeable about the game and/or the recruitment process, and/or parents of stronger players get approached by a lot of the jerks ---- frequently just looking for support for their position.

We can take that opportunity to at least try to defuse the situation either by explaining what they're really asking for (such as my example above), offering a reason for the coach's actions for them to chew on, or giving them the 'life lesson' we might give our son in the same situation as well as the suggestion that it might be better for Junior to handle it with Coach himself.

Just don't give in to the temptation to argue (she repeated to herself )

TPM says:

quote:

Does that make me one of those parents? Poor coach.

At least you found out before it was too late. Feel better?

Ramrod: Thanks for the honest self-analysis. Your post, in my opinion, demonstrates that this HM moniker can be applied to both parent AND coach.

Just as a coach should choose his players and parents carefully so should the player and parents choose their coach carefully.

Kudos to you and your honest assessment.

Most would not consider my wife or me an HM type but I must admit that I agree with most all of your answers.

It's safe to say that all of us are very interested in our player's particular situation. We all want to help but some are better suited to actively help than others. Some parents have the diplomatic skills necessary to interact favorably with a coach, scout, or recruiter and acheive positive results. Others may not possess these skills and their results may be much less thsn desired.

It is up to the player and/or parent to know their strengths and weakness along with the same for the coach and others. If its likely that your imput is going to create a larger problem then wisely back off and regroup. On the other hand if you're confident that your involvement will have a positive impact then go forward. Be observant and act wisely.

Ramrod: I just reviewed your "alpha" post from yesterday. Again I agree with you. You're admitting that you are an alpha male but one that has learned lessons in life and is now using your alpha qualities in a wise manner particularly in regards to helping your son. I wouldn't classify myself as an alpha male but I've certainly learned valuable lessons through the years from them and especially respect those that put their alpha qualities to good use.

gotwood 4sale

I guess i have been out of it too long. Never know I had to choose players and parents. If the kid can play I picked him. If the parent was a pain in the *** I told them to back off.

Sometimes it's as simple as knowing your place. Those that don't understand their place require more "maintenance".

I agree with choosing the coach, but then again if you get far enough you don't have that choice.

For most young players it's much more important what the recruiter thinks is HM than what the parent thinks is HM.

When I was a college coach one thing was well known by all our players...

It doesn't matter whether you like me... What's most important is whether I like you!!!!

Obviously I don't live my life that way, but in baseball things can be different. I actually did like most all of our players, most of the time, by the way.

Overseas Dad - Thanks for a HSBBWeb first for me.. when my professional life transfers directly to my other full time life (as a HSBBWeb fan). It reminds me of an interview I saw with Joe Montana many years ago. He said that from his perspective, when the 49r's won it was because the TEAM won; when they lost, it was a personal loss.

quote:

Originally posted by OverseasDad:
Perhaps it's worth looking at success in the "real world". Jim Collins in his work on the role great leaders play in transforming good companies to great companies writes "... leaders blend the paradoxical combination of deep personal humility with intense professional will ... How do leaders manifest humility? They routinely credit others, external factors and good luck for their companies' success. But when results are poor, they blame themselves. They also act quitely, calmly and determinedly ... they are stoic in their resolve to do whatever it takes to produce great results."

Hopefully, we behave in this way and teach our sons likewise.

I have liked the vast majority of my players. There have been some that I did not like. But as long as they did what we asked them to do and followed the team rules the best players play regardless of wether I like them or not. It should not be an *** ******* contest as to who gets on the field. As far as the parents I have liked most and some have been a pain in the neck. I have never held anything against a player because the parent was a pain. The kid can not help it if the parent is a nut case. But we dont recruit. As a college coach I can sure understand passing on a kid if the parent is percieved as HM. I dont have that luxury in HS. If we have a parent that is HM we just tell them face to face. It is their decision if they feel that they need to go play somewhere else. If the problem persists and they choose to stay in the program (HM parent) we take the steps to keep them away (practices etc). Now if a player is HM we just cut them. They either do it the way everyone else is expected to do it or they find another place to play. JMHO

This is quite the interesting discussion. It seems to me that coaches today want to emphasize rules, rules, rules. What is the responsibility of coaches to these kids? There is an epidemic of arm injuries in baseball today and the discussion is about HM parents. These kids deserve better. The traditional pitching motion is done, busted, kaput. Where are ths coaches that will step forward and change the way kids pitch? How many coaches so hell bent on rules know when each of the important growth plates close? How many of you know the damage supinating the release of pitches causes to these kids. Your reapnse: find another program! How many coaches know the primary muscles involved in pitching a baseball? Arm injuries cost baseball teams in the vicinity of $100MM per year and you look to the hot pitcher du jour to guide you.

Who is calling what to pitch on your team? I rarely see a team where the coach let's the pitcher pitch or lets the catcher call the game. Kids are taught to obey rules and be tough. Great. Russians were good ast that but it did not do much for their creativity. If these kids are going to compete in the larger game of life I strongly suggest you give the game back to the kids and stop worryiong about the HM parent.

URKMB,
Thanks

I think HS sports are part of our children's education because they provide a "safe" environment for testing and developing character. Sports are a microcosm enabling fast learning, chances to stretch oneself, tests to learn how to behave when you really care, and the opportunity to observe both the intended and unintended consequences of one's choices (including the choices of parents and coaches). Ultimately, success in the real world (professional success, family success, social success, spiritual success, etc.) is governed by our charcter - a life long development project that our sons are now in charge of for themselves.

I would agree and also add that HS sports can often provide a wonderful opportunity for an individual to learn what it is like to be part of a high performance team. When I ask clients to describe when they have ever experienced being part of a high performance team, they almost always describe experiences they have had at the high school or college level - usually (although not always) in athletics.

Hey everyone if you wanted a definition of HM check out Kharma. Seriously Kharma do you really have a clue? We have rules we have expectations of our players just as parents do, I hope. On one hand you suggest that we controll the pitches a player throws then go on to say that we should allow the catchers and pitchers to call the games. I personally want my catcher to have the ability to call a game but he has to be mature and experienced enough to do it. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. It depends on the kid and what we have at that particular time available to us. Most HS coaches that I know are very protective of their players health and care greatly about them on and off the field. Maybe you have had a bad experience. If so I am sorry. Your comments lead me to believe that you are not very informed about what you are speaking about. I dont mean to sound abrasive but I am speaking honestly to you.

Wow!!! I didn't know I was such a problem

Coach May:

It sounds like you have been coaching awhile. Have any of your pitchers ever hurt their arms. Did you blame it on the kid? Was his arm slot wrong? BS. Was he not bending far enough at the waist? BS. Was his arm slot incorrect? More BS. Do you agree that there is an epidemic of arm injuries? Do you allow your kids to supinate the release of their curve balls (turn their thumb up)? Or do you let yourself off the hook by saying arm injuries are just a part of baseball? The worst BS!

Something tells me you will refrain from answering my specific questions. It's so much easier to revert to name calling.

Kharma...what is your point??? That coaches are horrible and parents can do no wrong.

The subject was about HM parents...and yes they do exist.

In regards to coaches you are right there are plenty of coaches that have issues as you note in your earlier rants, oops I mean points. BUT thats not the subject. Your points may warrant a separate topic discussion.

In regards to coaches blaming the kid, or arm slot issues etc... If you have a kid who is a pitcher and don't have faith in a coaches pitching knowledge either get him private lessons from a instructor who has the background and expertise and/or get him off the team if you think he is hurting the kids arm. Most of these coaches try their best but they are doing this out of love for the game on nights and weekends between a job and and everything else in life.

IMO...there are very few coaches who can coach pitching at an advanced level. To be able to take a kids natural motion and adjust the player as an individual vs. trying to get every kid to pitch the with the exact same motion. To be a pitching coach takes a special talent and gift.

A HM parent may not see it that way though...and blame the coach

My thoughts, and a healthy dose of reality

We will all encounter a few HM parents, as well a a few HM coaches over our baseball years, some more than others. Many of us have even been the HM parent/coach on a rare occassion.

Now if you are one of those parents who has encountered MOSTLY HM coaches, or you are a coach who feels the MAJORITY of parents are HM then it is time to take a long hard look in the mirror.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. No one is that "unlucky".

Ever seen what happens when two bulls collide? Ever notice how even the meakest animal can become viscious when backed into a corner?

Your own actions can be a major contributing factor to the problems you are having.

AParent,

A very wise observation!

.

First...Kudo's.

OverseasDad...your last post about sports as an arena for testing and building character has to be one of the most astute statments I have seen made about sport in a long,long time. I nominate this for the Hall of Fame thread section all by itself!

Second....with all due respects...

While IMO I too feel that a coaches attitude and burn out level in great part dictates how many Jerky High Maintenace parents (JHMP) he creates and perceives....

I do also believe that the very reason that thread like this even exists and has such long life is that we all feel that the JHMP factor is seriously on the rise and has been for some time.

As the pressure ratchets up, as the emotional, and monetary cost of creating, marketing and placing college athletes increases, the perceived reward on investment for the involved parents increases dramatically. And the temptation to manipulate that process increases. Frankly I see it increasingly in my travels in the four sports I am involved with. I would be willing to be you all see it in yours as well....

For the sake of brevity I won't go into specific instances but I've got lots of stories and IMO you'd have to be blind not to see the increase.

.

IMO.....high maintenance parents only appear when coaches allow them to appear. Coaches who are good and professional are able to prevent any potential HM parents from becoming a distraction to the team, the team's preparation, and the players on the team. That is why there are more HM parents at lower levels of athletics, and fewer at the higher levels.

.

I, for one, have in the past underestimated the ablity of HM parents to disrupt even the best laid plans of the best coaches.

I have watched HM high school parents use libelous internet accusations, letters, calls, angry confrontations of Principals, athletic directors, and school boards, anonymous phone calls regarding minor or phantom rules violations, calls to local papers, petitions, lawsuits....

.

Kharma,
NC dad answered for me. Sorry you had a bad experience. I wish you the best.

Grateful 44

They will appear no matter what the coach does or does not do.

observer 44

Talking to other coaches and from personal experience when the HM parent or parents get together they can be very disruptive. The anonymous phone calls and letters are the tools of choice for some.

I am certified to teach K-8. I would not even attempt to educate high school kids. It takes a special person to understand and tolerate this age group. Most high school baseball coaches are teachers first and coaches second, giving up many after school hours to work with our kids. Can you imagine trying to force history or math into these kids all day, then spending from 3pm till dark with a group of energetic teenage boys in the spring, when kids begin to lose focus on school? Especially seniors! Then throw in HM parents to deal with off the field! And all at the expense of your own family.

I haven't always agreed with everything our high school coach has done, but I know his heart is in the right place and I cut him some slack! Let the coaches coach and let the kids play. We're all in this for the same reason... we want these boys to get all the benefits of playing the greatest game ever and being a part of a life-learning experience. Unless the coach isn't qualified to work with kids and you feel he is inflicting harm upon children, parents need to step back and let the baseball happen. It may not be perfect, but few things in life are. Even the negative lessons become important life-lessons! The good usually outweighs the bad in the end.

Hi Coach May:

As I expected you did not answer my very specific questions. Neither did NC dad. You chalk up tough questions to HM parents. You take the easy way out by saying you're doing your best and if you don't like it find another team/coach. The America love it or leave it mentality. I'm sure you tell the parents that you want the kids to give 100%. My question to you is when are you going to give 100% of you mental energy. How many of your impressionable players have to ruin their arms because you are trying your best. Sometimes your best isn't good enough. I suspect you can do better. I know you van do better

You called me out as an HM parent. For the record my son's coaches have probably been much like you. Well intentioned men who sincerely believe they are doing their best. I'm here to tell you that you are not doing your best and you should keep an open mind. You must change the way you teach your kids how to pitch. But then you may have to irritate the NC dads of the world who think they know baseball.

Kharma.....I don't know you and I don't know Coach May. Are you trying to tell us that there is not one coach in the country that gives a complete offort in his coaching?

Grateful: I couldn't agree more! To run a successful organization takes alot of different skills and the knowledge and wisdom on how and when to use them. If HM parents have to be dealt with then it can be expected,to be successful,that plenty of those skills will be required to keep them in check. It may prove wiser to employ those skills upfront and maneuver in a way that eliminates the HM parent altogether. That of course is easier said than done.

Do HM parents exist in fantasy baseball? Maybe 'trading cards' with their most notable escapades ond outbursts listed would be helpful! Only the HM parents that have made it to the 'majors' would be printed up... and sour apple bubblegum! Topps, Donruss, Upper Deck can you hear me!?

Grateful: My comments on agreeing with you were generated from your post on Sept. 25 and not the one just above posted earlier today. Didn't want you to be confused!

going back to the original post and how you can diffuse the troublesome parent- usually asking them to help (help prep the field, held raise funds, help make calls, help in anyway) usually shuts them up and sends them running. It's usually the ones that never contribute their time and effort that have all the suggestions and complaints.

Grateful"

Coached May called me out as a HM parent. I don't think he knows me but that's fine so I thought I'd probe him on his ability as a coach.
To answer your question, the vast majority of coaches are not giving a complete effort when it comes to the correct way to teach the skills of baseball, especially pitching.


This is my last post on this subject. This seems to be a very collegial web site. My post are akin to bringing up the war in Iraq. We only want happy news. Ergo, the Coach Mays will be happy to know that I will be easing off the site. Just think what they used to call Ralph Nader when he insisted that seat belts be put in cars. The way we are teaching are sons is akin to not wearing seat belts.

Kharma,


Please don't "ease off" the site. Leave quickly LOL

I think you are full of **** and I sincerely hope you are removed as soon as possible.

No easing here pal.

Kharma you dont know anything about me. As a matter of fact you probaly dont know any HS coaches with the exception of the one that you think did you wrong. You paint everyone with the same wide brush out of ignorance. Please dont go away mad, just go away.

How do parents become High maintenance is a question that should be asked.

Will: Some HM parents become that way because they are not rooted in reality when it comes to the ability of their sons or daughters.

When their perception of reality conflicts with actual reality they, by virtue of their personality, kind of go nuts and spin out.

Sometimes athletes are genuinely dissed for who knows what reason and everyone can agree that some response,including parent involvement, is justified.

When it is apparent to all of those watching that parent involvement is NOT justified then you have a HM moment... and often it isn't pretty.

If all parents could somehow be rooted in reality with reasonable expectations then this HM problem may diminish.