Patrick Corbin played JUCO ball...... Son's school has 34 this fall.... won CWS last year.
JUCO is a different animal when compared to kids who go to 4-year schools. By definition, it is a one or two year program with a goal of competing to open a door to finishing up at a 4-year school. Roster spots are a continuous churn of guys moving up or out, other guys dropping down from failures at 4-year schools, and so on. It is much more practical for JUCOs to keep their roster sizes down to a manageable number. And like all levels, the better programs do not need to inflate their rosters because they always can attract top players to their programs.
Again, for those still on the recruiting trek, now is the time many schools are in Fall preseason and many schools do post their "tentative" rosters. Save a copy of those rosters because they will decline by the time Spring season rolls around and they are updated. Look at the kids who are no longer on the list and ask yourself questions about who got cut, such as were they at the school last year and years before, did they play much (check Stats usually archived), how many kids kept are transfers in, and so on. You can get a real read of a program and a coach's methods by looking at the rosters on a regular basis.
EDIT: Thanks Cabbage...autotype is never good for me!
Backstop22 posted:JUCO is a different animal when compared to kids who go to 4-year schools. By definition, it is a one or two year program with a goal of competing to open a door to finishing up at a 4-year school. Roster spots are a continuous churn of guys moving up or out, other guys dropping down from failures at 4-year schools, and so on. It is much more practicable for JUCOs to keep their roster sizes down to a manageable number. And like all levels, the better programs do not need to inflate their rosters because they always can attract top players to their programs.
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Backstop, that was definitely not our experience here in Calif. Two of the best programs in the state (and ones that I am close to) commonly bring in between 70-95 in the fall. Another pretty solid program that one son played for brought in between 80-90 in the fall the two years he was there. Some cuts are pretty obvious early on but most of the players are typically pretty decent (some HS all-league recognition or better). All of fall is a bloodbath. None of these programs would post rosters until spring, which, BTW, is also when a few additional drop-downs would typically show up.
But then, I didn't know that "practicable" was a real word, so take this with a grain of salt 
It’s hard to make generalizations about JuCos that hold up across the board. High level D1 JuCo programs that make it to Grand Junction can beat the pants off many a D1 mid-major 4 year school. Those JuCo programs are sought after and often bring in big numbers in the fall (60+). Low level D3 JuCo programs would lose to some good HS teams. Those programs are not heavily sought after and would likely never have inflated fall rosters.
Son's NAIA (he is a vol assistant this year) has almost 100. They play Varsity and a full JV schedule with 2 JV teams (at least they have 2 this fall). Their varsity is very good, lots of international kids. The JV guys are almost all from within a 2 state radius. Son said that alot of the JV kids are really there for the school (one of their degree programs is well known worldwide as the place to go if you want to work in that field)....but still just want to play baseball. I went and watched one of their fall JV games. It wasn't awful baseball...at least while the top 9 or 10 guys were in. Pitching was the weakest point by far. He did say they have some guys that probably didn't see much PT in HS, if any at all. I guess as long as the kids know the situation going in, I don't have a problem with it.
bacdorslider posted:Patrick Corbin played JUCO ball...... Son's school has 34 this fall.... won CWS last year.
So Vandy only has 34 total this fall? I heard they had 40 plus at scrimmage the other day. Not questioning you, just what I heard was dressed out. Source may be wrong. I just can't believe they have less than the 35 in fall ball. If so, that is good, I reckon.
They had 21 return from last season, and 14 freshman so 35 but one is a medical redshirt. that's enough...
PitchingFan posted:bacdorslider posted:Patrick Corbin played JUCO ball...... Son's school has 34 this fall.... won CWS last year.
So Vandy only has 34 total this fall? I heard they had 40 plus at scrimmage the other day. Not questioning you, just what I heard was dressed out. Source may be wrong. I just can't believe they have less than the 35 in fall ball. If so, that is good, I reckon.
How do you find out all of this info? Seriously.
I had a friend that took his son to watch them. He said he counted 40 plus in uniform. Maybe his counting skills are off. Maybe he counted coaches. Maybe he counted batboys. I don't know. I was not trying to contradict BACDORSLIDER just saying what I was told. Plus when you look at their picture for their roster it shows 40 so maybe that is what he going off of also. But maybe that is last year's picture on this year's roster page. Their roster like many only has returning players.
PitchingFan posted:I had a friend that took his son to watch them. He said he counted 40 plus in uniform. Maybe his counting skills are off. Maybe he counted coaches. Maybe he counted batboys. I don't know. I was not trying to contradict BACDORSLIDER just saying what I was told. Plus when you look at their picture for their roster it shows 40 so maybe that is what he going off of also. But maybe that is last year's picture on this year's roster page. Their roster like many only has returning players.
Maybe. Maybe.
I think it's really important to get accurate information. This applies to everyone.
The bottom line is that a D1 program is allowed 27 scholarships. Not all fund. So I suppose that one coach can have as many walk ons as he wants, while another coach will not go over 35 players.
last year we had 40-41....too many redshirts, this year it worked out to 35....had 6-7 transfer out the pic is from last year. The thinking is if you are not going to see any playing then transfer out, This school doesnt need to sort through 50 players, your friend just miss counted, they do travel with 3 mgrs, 3 trainers, 4 media 5 coaches
TPM, I don't know what you think I am trying to start or alluding to. I just went off what I was told and it was similar to what was on photo. When UT came out for national anthem against Clemson a few weeks ago everybody around us was trying to count and some were off by 5 high and 5 low. I was the only one around me that was right on the number of players.
BACDOSLIDER, I will agree on the transfer out logic. I think it is tough to stay at a school that you are not going to play at for a year. I think you are better off going to a juco and possibly coming back rather than sit out a year. The redshirt rules make it really tough to get better if they are held to by the coaching staff. It is hard to get better as a lone wolf when you can run with a pack. When you look at who Vandy brings in, especially with Rings, they do not have to over recruit. They have a good idea who will be drafted and where and can pretty much get who they want. Not trashing in any way they have earned it, just saying, and that is a good thing for them. UT is trying to change their culture to get to where you guys are and with that he is having to work to find the best and get them early. Many times that is a gamble that they will grow and become the SEC players they need them to be. It is a trial and error situation. I believe Vitello is very good at seeing talent and getting it as he has proven as a RC in the past. To get where you guys are he has to bring in a very different level of talent than in the past. That sometimes will mean bringing in more than he needs and letting the system weed it out but I think he is also willing to give some instate guys a chance that Vandy doesn't do and doesn't need to do, and I understand that also. He is willing to bring in some guys that may not be quite SEC material but is willing to give them a chance to get there. And some them are willing to burn a year and work really hard to earn the right to play in the SEC. Plus they are fighting for the best players in Tennessee every year. The main thing is that the best in Tennessee have to wear either a T or V on their jersey. They cannot let them go out of state.
The one series I wanted to see was UT/V but it seems I have a wedding that weekend so I will miss the entire weekend live. Will have to see it on TV or internet. Good luck to your son this year.
Ironically, if you google "college baseball overrecruiting" you get:
https://community.hsbaseballwe...topic/overrecruiting
That is a 2017 thread in which a bunch of people say their D1 team has 40-45 players in the fall. You can find these threads going way back on here; in one from 2015, TPM specifically says she thinks teams will have 40-50 in a few years!
But, that google search brings up very little else. No-one else talks about this.
If D1 programs said to players, "this NLI/guaranteed roster spot/whatever is NOT a spot on the 35-man roster, but a chance to try out for it," then it would indeed be a buyer-beware, show-up-ready-to-compete, best-man-wins type of situation. But I don't think that's what most people are told.
I think Vitello is on the right track. When he came to UT the place was a mess. He was the RC at Arkansas correct? My oldest played at Tenn Tech when they had a couple of good years. I remember talking to the head coach that is now at Rice and the RC that is now the head coach and even though they bring in a fair amount of JUco guys they did not want to have more than 35-37 in the fall.
Vandy, recruits pretty much who they want knowing they will lose a few to the draft. Last year was an anomaly due to many sr's coming back ... it pushed some freshman out... Vandy is tough place..... I would always try and go to a school where I was going to play as a freshman. If not your out over your skies and the hill is going to be too hard to climb.
Last year Vandy had exp. players with young talent. This year the athleticism and talent is very strong. The top 6 pitchers are 1-2 round guys. The outfield is very good. We had 5 or 6 guys that sat the bench that would have started on any team in the SEC last year.
I will say this , I cannot speak for all the SEC teams, but I have seen a few other teams besides Vandy this fall, and unless I caught them on a bad day, their fall is not likes Vandy's . VU fall is brutal....
I believe it. Vandy right now has a large number of guys that could have gone early rounds or turned down early rounds to stay/go to Vandy. You guys are very tough. Even your freshmen are great players. I think the only way UT can get where I hope they get is to set their sights on Vandy and try to beat them in recruiting and then/also on the field. Vitello is very driven along with the rest of his staff and they want to be the best and in Tennessee to be the best you will definitely have to beat the best, Vandy, as of now.
Story from February 2013. That year our HS varsity was scheduled to "scrimmage" a JC from just west of DFW (right off of 20). Our boys were like "oh crap". Parents were 
. 2-9 inning games. Our starters played the 1st game and subs played the 2nd game. 1st game ended 22-3 us. 2nd game ended 11-9 them. Their bus roll up and about 30 kids got off the bus................and I'm guessing alot of these kids were not the 1st team from the JC. Now the JC was NOT good that season, and we were really good, but I'm guessing that the best players were left at home, and if they were left at home, how many did they really have in the program?
Buyer beware, and always investigate and ask questions.
I know of a D2 in Texas that has 70 on the fall roster. I would think that might be too many 
russinfortworth posted:Story from February 2013. That year our HS varsity was scheduled to "scrimmage" a JC from just west of DFW (right off of 20). Our boys were like "oh crap". Parents were
Buyer beware, and always investigate and ask questions.
If that JuCo was anything like the D2 JuCo my son played for, the number of players for a travel game (away) is limited to what the bus can carry. Son's JuCo only took 25 players to away games out of a 35 man roster. The bus had 28 seats - enough for 25 players and three coaches.
anotherparent posted:Ironically, if you google "college baseball overrecruiting" you get:
https://community.hsbaseballwe...topic/overrecruiting
That is a 2017 thread in which a bunch of people say their D1 team has 40-45 players in the fall. You can find these threads going way back on here; in one from 2015, TPM specifically says she thinks teams will have 40-50 in a few years!
But, that google search brings up very little else. No-one else talks about this.
If D1 programs said to players, "this NLI/guaranteed roster spot/whatever is NOT a spot on the 35-man roster, but a chance to try out for it," then it would indeed be a buyer-beware, show-up-ready-to-compete, best-man-wins type of situation. But I don't think that's what most people are told.
I also said stop worrying about the numbers, get yourself a solid commitment, sign an NLI and prepare yourself for some tough competition!
As an FYI, where son coaches, the HC sticks to 35, 36. Always.
I guess that the P5 programs can do that, and smaller programs lack the funds to offer athletic $$, so then I guess, that it's just easier to ask everyone to walk on ?
Isn't finding the right player for your particular program, part of your job?
TPM;
Amen:!
Happy to see you back! As a "part time" hitting coach at a local Division 2 college, I can only work with the "pure suspects" for the Spring roster. If they had running speed I advised switch hitting.
Bob
Son's D1 had 44 on fall roster but will trim to NCAA limit of 35 for spring. I know cuts began this week. Don't believe they're down to 35 yet, but from what I've been hearing, they're close to it.
Consultant posted:TPM;
Amen:!
Happy to see you back! As a "part time" hitting coach at a local Division 2 college, I can only work with the "pure suspects" for the Spring roster. If they had running speed I advised switch hitting.
Bob
What happened to guys switch hitting? I just do not see it anymore in HS or college. Specializing?
Switch hitting a lost art. Takes extra work. Check your son's dominant eye.
Dominant right eye should consider hitting left handed.
When I coached, I would recommend switch hitting to 3-4 players each year.
Eddie Murray HOF player did not hit left handed until age 18.
Bob
PitchingFan posted:Consultant posted:TPM;
Amen:!
Happy to see you back! As a "part time" hitting coach at a local Division 2 college, I can only work with the "pure suspects" for the Spring roster. If they had running speed I advised switch hitting.
Bob
What happened to guys switch hitting? I just do not see it anymore in HS or college. Specializing?
It seems to me that switch hitting declined when pitchers lost the ability to throw aggressively inside. Hitters can now lean into the plate and reach the outside pitch and hit to all fields. Why put in the extra time to switch hit if you can do this?
Smitty28 posted:PitchingFan posted:Consultant posted:TPM;
Amen:!
Happy to see you back! As a "part time" hitting coach at a local Division 2 college, I can only work with the "pure suspects" for the Spring roster. If they had running speed I advised switch hitting.
Bob
What happened to guys switch hitting? I just do not see it anymore in HS or college. Specializing?
It seems to me that switch hitting declined when pitchers lost the ability to throw aggressively inside. Hitters can now lean into the plate and reach the outside pitch and hit to all fields. Why put in the extra time to switch hit if you can do this?
Good pitchers still pitch inside. It’s not a lost art.
adbono posted:Smitty28 posted:PitchingFan posted:Consultant posted:TPM;
Amen:!
Happy to see you back! As a "part time" hitting coach at a local Division 2 college, I can only work with the "pure suspects" for the Spring roster. If they had running speed I advised switch hitting.
Bob
What happened to guys switch hitting? I just do not see it anymore in HS or college. Specializing?
It seems to me that switch hitting declined when pitchers lost the ability to throw aggressively inside. Hitters can now lean into the plate and reach the outside pitch and hit to all fields. Why put in the extra time to switch hit if you can do this?
Good pitchers still pitch inside. It’s not a lost art.
There's inside and there's inside. Guys like Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan could be pretty aggressive, way off the plate inside. They didn't have umpires giving warnings or ejecting pitchers. I think it is different today.
Survival of the fittest
As the OP on this thread, I wanted to post an update for my 2019 Freshman RHP.
First, I wanted to thank you all for all the great comments and information that has been provided here as I appreciate all of you.
Fall Ball is now concluded.
This Mid D1 started fall with a roster of 60 then went to 53 for most of the fall games is finally down to 35.
It was a crazy fall for him and us:
With the large roster, The 18 transfers, the life changes, the unknown, the GF drama, the Helicopter Mom visits and the inconsistent pitching - making the team was very much not a remote certainty.
He has found out that they want him to redshirt.
Obviously this wasn't the desired outcome and he immediately said is not going to redshirt (and we agree) especially when next years recruiting class looks even larger than this one.
Overall -He was doing much better this past month-especially after breaking up with the GF a few weeks back(who was providing much unwanted stress and early fall drama). He is doing very well in school, making a lot of friends , getting bigger and stronger (13 lbs) and the chicks dig him.
He seems to be handling this pretty well despite the initial dissapointment . He told the coaches to put him on the Portal and we are all in the research to find the right Juco for this spring that will be win/win and facilitate a transfer to another D1 next summer. At least this is the plan. Local PC is on board with it and will help.
so Life's journeys and Baseball Journeys aren't always in a straight line. It is about overcoming challenges and adversity. This will be one of those moments for him.
His Journey is just beginning and I am very proud of him.
Hopefully this will help some HS families here really research,choose wisely , ask good questions when reviewing a potential college situation that will /could greatly impact your son's life.
Good luck to all out there
Thank you
FISH - I would suggest that you reach out to Rick at Informed Athlete. There are a lot of moving parts related to transfers and eligibility issues and depending on your son's situation, it may require he graduate from the JUCO before moving on unless he transfers to D2 or D3. He has been a wealth of knowledge for us and is well worth consulting with so you are not surprised later on down the road. Wishing your son the best of luck! https://informedathlete.com/
Sorry to hear that. It’s a hard road and many families are not taking into consideration the chance/likelihood that the program they are committing to many also be bringing in JUCO transfers to have to compete against as well as the rest of the returning roster and new recruiting class.
Good luck going forward.
I'm sorry, and I hope he moves forward successfully. Thanks for posting, if only more people would read stories like this that are posted here; this happens way more than it should IMO.
63 player D2 roster. All freshmen redshirted or highly suggested they do.
23 juco players on roster
Do you bring many juco players in?
"No, we have decided to stop bringing in more than 5 max, rather invest in our own young recruits"
Uhhhh yep
Showball$ posted:63 player D2 roster. All freshmen redshirted or highly suggested they do.
23 juco players on roster
Do you bring many juco players in?
"No, we have decided to stop bringing in more than 5 max, rather invest in our own young recruits"
Uhhhh yep
I want to compliment you on having the courage to make an honest post. A post like this helps to enlighten others as to what is really going on. As a result, others have information that will help them make more informed (and hopefully better) decisions. Knowledge is power. Sharing of knowledge is the ultimate benefit of HSBBW, IMO.
Fish - Very sorry it didn't work out as you had planned/hoped at this school. I would second the suggestion for Rick at Informed Athlete - I have found him very thorough and helpful. I'd also agree very much with Adbono's post above and would go on to say how impressed I am with your positive attitude in the face of this adversity for your son. Best of luck to you and him in your search for a better situation for him.
I don't think redshirting is the end of the world, especially at a D1 where you would've already made the 35 man roster. If there are upperclassmen at his position or an older pitching staff it makes sense to save a year of eligibility. Was there a conversation as to why they intended to redshirt? Coaches might also have plans for him and rather him hit the weights, get bigger/stronger and have him come back throwing harder with more command. Did fall ball go well? Honestly in this situation I think redshirting means you can be valuable to us in the future but you won't be doing much now. At 2019s school they've had conversations with guys likely to redshirt and why. And it was that they would be useful, but didn't have enough pitches or needed to work on an out pitch, or velo.
The reason I say this is because your son will likely want to transfer back to another D1 where he will possibly be another 1 of 18 transfers in. If playing right away is the goal then by all means, but just because it is juco doesn't mean it will be any easier, especially when they've already been evaluating all their guys since August.
At least where I am at, the local JUCO pitching staffs will benefit greatly from the D1 dropdowns that come in late fall/winter. Things are pretty thin here.
FriarFred posted:FISH - I would suggest that you reach out to Rick at Informed Athlete. There are a lot of moving parts related to transfers and eligibility issues and depending on your son's situation, it may require he graduate from the JUCO before moving on unless he transfers to D2 or D3. He has been a wealth of knowledge for us and is well worth consulting with so you are not surprised later on down the road. Wishing your son the best of luck! https://informedathlete.com/
Another vote for reviewing your son's situation with Rick. I think there is definitely a route for your son to transfer to a D1 next fall and be eligible, but better to know all the requirements. For example, he'll have to take and pass at least 12 credits in the spring, and he'll need a GPA of 2.5 or better.
PABaseball posted:I don't think redshirting is the end of the world, especially at a D1 where you would've already made the 35 man roster. If there are upperclassmen at his position or an older pitching staff it makes sense to save a year of eligibility. Was there a conversation as to why they intended to redshirt? Coaches might also have plans for him and rather him hit the weights, get bigger/stronger and have him come back throwing harder with more command. Did fall ball go well? Honestly in this situation I think redshirting means you can be valuable to us in the future but you won't be doing much now. At 2019s school they've had conversations with guys likely to redshirt and why. And it was that they would be useful, but didn't have enough pitches or needed to work on an out pitch, or velo.
The reason I say this is because your son will likely want to transfer back to another D1 where he will possibly be another 1 of 18 transfers in. If playing right away is the goal then by all means, but just because it is juco doesn't mean it will be any easier, especially when they've already been evaluating all their guys since August.
Redshirting isnt the end of the world in many situations with normal sized fall rosters.
However with a very large roster (55-60) and even more expected next year it is not the best move in my son's case-especially since we were told a fall roster or low to mid 40's on our visit. Combine that with an average school that we probably would not have chosen in the first place and and the answer for us is clear.
there is another path for him and a better school in the end.
True. Potentially Not a thing in the world wrong with redshirting or being asked to redshirt. It happens for good reasons........and unfortunately not for good reasons.
Good reasons:
1.) Need size, strength, grade adjustment to keep up. Maybe just a step behind in being up to competitive speed.
2.) Performed well but blocked for a year
3.) Performed poorly during competitions and drills, but there is something there to tweak.
4.) We screwed up and overrecruited, performed poorly in competition an drills, but we will honor our recruiting for a second shot.
Bad Reasons:
1.) We have 60+ players in Fall and don't have room
2.) We have 60+ players in Fall and can't evaluate each one. So you go over there to the side and hit off the tee everyday, while we scrimmage/evaluate/drill the juco transfers and returners. Come back next year (and bring tuition check!) Thank you for your fund raising donations this year.
3.) Redshirt after 95% of the entire incoming class got less than 2 competitive at bats and/or less than 2 competitive live innings on mound during Fall. With even zero level of BP on the field. Despite 3 intersquad scrimmages a week for over a month.
Showball$ sounds like you have something specific you want to say but you didn't, whats up?