How To Get By In The Minors On $1,500 A Month

On a related note, the court threw out the MILB suit and the players lawyers' surrendered. If MLB desires, it could now actually cut MILB salaries.

Roughly $33 a day after rent. Not sure if the rent includes heat / air. But they get to eat 6 of 21 meals (in clubhouse of home games) free, if I read that correctly but do have to pay for food when they are away in clubhouse?. I know a lot of people that work minimum wage ($8.10 / hour) for far less a day to live on. That being said, I think it is ludicrous that they are not paid during spring training. I would assume they cannot work another job during that time, so money is just being spent without being replaced by wages. I, also, think that having to pay clubhouse dues on that wage is silly. The club needs to pick that up.

My son hopes to be in that situation in a few years. Right now in college he lives on about $30 a day after rent and does fine.

I can tell you in my early 20's, I have multiple roommates and lived pretty simply because I was just starting out in my career. Somehow I always found money for pizza and beer .

I do think they clubs should invest in these guys with a year round salary

Two words - host family! :-)

hshuler posted:

Two words - host family! :-)

VERY VERY true. College summer teams do it all the time. In my son's case the one time he has done that so far, the team gave the host family season tickets in return

Regarding "host family", I love that set up for summer college and for youth international travel but this is supposed to be professional (i.e. - paid) baseball.  I think that when the need for host families comes into the conversation regarding MILB, that is a clear indicator that the pay scale is insufficient.

Also, the season is a heck of a lot longer and the players are older.  I could see a lot of potential pitfalls.  I don't know.  I think I've heard that some do that now??

Host families are not free.  

Roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of a player's gross pay goes to the host family; for that players get a bed, in most families (but not all) decent food, and no lease (so the player isn't on the hook when reassigned).  Most host families are wonderful and wind up losing money on the food end; some are in it for the few extra dollars. The bad ones are usually weeded out - as players wont live with that family once word gets around.

Also, since rent is due up front and before the player even gets a pay check,  a player's family is the bank of last resort.

hshuler posted:

Two words - host family! :-)

Host families are provided less often than you might expect.  Through our 2 sons and a total now (including this year) of 9 minor league seasons and 10 teams they have together had a host family (supplying housing) a total of 2 times (food and shelter).

One other time, the older one had a host family who were wonderful people but supplied snacks for the road trips, an occasional dinner and friendly companionship (no housing).

I remember when our older son was first promoted to double-A.  Shipped out with no car in the middle of the season - they gave him a 3-day hotel voucher and told him to 'figure out the rest.'  He ended up sleeping on the couch of a teammate the rest of the summer.

No complaints.  I believe they both have learned a lot from it and do not complain about it.  But it just is the way it is.  They have other options - both graduated from college with job offers - its a choice they made and continue to make.

I will tell you this - I sure as heck don't have $30 or $33 a day leftover after my bills!  Four kids at home. I would kill for that kind of money. If a young single guy can't live on $1500 a month there is something seriously wrong. 

From what I've been able to piece together, the article seems to pick a relatively "cozy" 7 days for a player in a low cost area.  I have a feeling that the particular week chosen does not simply repeat itself 52x year and the guy socks away $10k in savings every year.  Getting 2 meals free every day is the exception as is the absence of clubhouse dues.  What happens when one of the roommate guys gets sent up or released (could be the guy paying the cable bill) - that's got to hurt.  Any amount set aside for electricity and water - are both included in the rent?  Then there are the unpaid weeks (spring training) and the off season where these guys are trying to secure seasonal jobs while having to pay for gym memberships and all of their meals.  I got a feeling these same four guys aren't all going to be spending their offseason in Augusta.

I would not go so far as to say Single A ball ought to pay enough to raise a family, but something like abolishing clubhouse dues across the board AND providing 14 meals/week should be standard - especially when factoring in the benefits of a solid diet.  Also think there should be significant housing support - something along the lines of subsidized corporate housing where individual players don't end up having to sign leases.  Given them some options and charge the player a reasonable amount - maybe even have them one to a bedroom.  Charge them rent weekly (payroll deduction) but let them walk away when needed and not have their departure place a burden on the remaining roommates.  

Final observation - the guy can survive in Augusta, GA without a car - pretty amazing.  Also guess he didn't use his Tracfone that week.

2020dad posted:

I will tell you this - I sure as heck don't have $30 or $33 a day leftover after my bills!  Four kids at home. I would kill for that kind of money. If a young single guy can't live on $1500 a month there is something seriously wrong. 

I don't think $30 a day is leftover. That $ would include food, gas, insurance, phone, possibly heat/ac, any kinds of school loans, credit cards, clothing, etc. That being said, I know lots of folks that live on less than $1500 a month. They just don't have much luxuries.

What I think is the shame (and wrong) is during spring training and any other expected baseball times, that they are not paid for their time. My son, the college player, works out roughly 20-30 hours a week to get / stay in baseball condition to compete for his spot. He does have time for a 25-30 hours summer job. I'm thinking the same thing for the guys in MiLB to tide them over. But the season is only 5-6 month long when they are getting paid. But there is another 3 where they are expected to be somewhere for the team (spring training, etc) and should be paid for that, because during that time they cannot get another job.

2017LHPscrewball said it so much better than I did

No doubt it would be nice for MLB to do more for their Minot leaguers. We would all agree there I am sure. But thes young men know the score coming in. And know their dream at a young age. Goes back to what has been discussed on here before regarding student loans etc. do your best to not have them!  Seldom do our dreams actually come true. So maybe you settle for the local juco for two years then a less expensive college and come out with no debt.  When did cable become a need rather than a want?  Minimize your cell phone plan. If this MLB dream is REALLY that important you will find ways. Get down to what is really necessary and you will live on $1500 a month quite easily. If I had no wife and kids I could do that right now without even an issue. 

if they get a signing bonus and can live off that for a bit great!  If they can't mom/dad/grandpa/grandma is footing over half the bills...it's like a really long college program.  I don't plan on cutting my kids off when they turn 18, if they need a phone, clothing, or food I don't have a problem keeping them on my phone plan or sending them a wal-mart giftcard where they can buy food and underwear...I just hope they don't put them in the same bag...*shudder*

They are boys- underwear and food will go in the same bag . Truth is my kids are all still on my phone plan- just cheaper for them. They do pay if they are working and we cover if they are not. Same with health insurance, it makes no sense that they are not on my family plan as long as possible. Doesn't cost me a dime more.

2020dad posted:

No doubt it would be nice for MLB to do more for their Minot leaguers. We would all agree there I am sure. But thes young men know the score coming in. And know their dream at a young age. Goes back to what has been discussed on here before regarding student loans etc. do your best to not have them!  Seldom do our dreams actually come true. So maybe you settle for the local juco for two years then a less expensive college and come out with no debt.  When did cable become a need rather than a want?  Minimize your cell phone plan. If this MLB dream is REALLY that important you will find ways. Get down to what is really necessary and you will live on $1500 a month quite easily. If I had no wife and kids I could do that right now without even an issue. 

Kids (young men) have been finding ways for years, it is just getting a little harder each year given the lack of any increase in base pay along with the increased demands on a player's time, both in-season and off-season.  And besides, $1,500 is pre-tax and there are probably lots of states and municipalities that have athlete taxes where it becomes cost prohibitive to hire some CPA to file for refunds.  Tack on some mandatory club dues - without some good meals to show for it - and have a few roommates leave in the middle of the night, then the bills start stacking up.  Add 6-8 weeks when you get zero salary (some sort of per diem during spring training) along with the risks that go with trying to line up a job that coincides exactly with the off-season, it soon becomes apparent that these young men are not getting some steady paycheck every two weeks - nor do they really have any control over which area of the country the live (how about getting move from low cost Augusta, GA to Sacremento, CA - good luck finding cheap housing right next to the ballpark so so don't need that car).  $1,500 per month sounds good but they have to hustle all year to maintain that as an average monthly income.

If you want to argue that the financial struggle is part of the process, then so be it.  Maybe it builds character.  Personally, I'd prefer some of the day-to-day struggle get removed (access to housing, good dietary options, pay structure to extend to all periods where no outside employment is possible).  I won't go into whether they are actually paid sufficiently to meet minimum wage standards, I'm just thinking MLB owners could waive their magic wand and get some of these aggravating struggles taken care of with minimal effort or cost on MLB's part.  

CaCO3Girl posted:

if they get a signing bonus and can live off that for a bit great!  If they can't mom/dad/grandpa/grandma is footing over half the bills...it's like a really long college program.  I don't plan on cutting my kids off when they turn 18, if they need a phone, clothing, or food I don't have a problem keeping them on my phone plan or sending them a wal-mart giftcard where they can buy food and underwear...I just hope they don't put them in the same bag...*shudder*

Our younger son signed for very little.  23rd round college senior draft pick.  No leverage.  He used most of his signing bonus for a down payment on a used vehicle.  We co-signed for him, but we've never made one payment.  Even though we have the means, we haven't succumbed to that parental temptation.  Haven't paid for his phone or car insurance, gas, food...anything.  He got a speeding ticket - he paid.  His phone broke, he figured out how to get it fixed.  In the off season he worked 60 hours a week to save up for the season.  In fact, we told him while we wouldn't let him lay in a ditch if he fell in, we don't plan to pay for anything.

I think twice we sent him $200 just as a gift.  Once in Spring Training when they don't get paid.  He didn't expect it, nor ask for it....we just did it to give him a small break.  He is learning to be a real, independent, self-sufficient adult.  Its good.

He graduated from college with great grades and a good degree and had multiple job offers.  He wanted to pursue pro baseball for $1200/month.  His choice.  I applaud him.  But the choice needs to be clear for him to not pursue this too long if it isn't going well - or to keep going if he loves it enough.  We don't want him hanging on just because.

He's a great son - if anyone has 'earned' the right to get stuff from mom and dad - its him.  But he doesn't even want it.  And he is learning all about budgeting, life and choices. Our society is getting a strong, self sufficient, hard working, kind and good young man out of the other end of this.  I'm so darned proud of him - it would be hard to describe.  He knows that. We have a terrific relationship.  Its all good.  He will be fine.

Millions of senior citizens, disabled citizens, disabled veterans, factory workers, office workers etc etc etc live off 1,500 a month pre tax and almost none of them are doing something they love for a living. 

Two jobs ago I was a production manager in a teir 2 automotive plant. Over 1,000 shop employees and not 1 of them making over 1,500 a month and that's 10 hours a day in a hot as crap factory. Pretty sure all of them would trade and take a pay cut to spend the day on a baseball field. 

Do I think they should get more? Yes because their owners make a whole lot more but they get a deaf ear when the whining starts. Sorry

Baseball isn't "the game of baseball" at the professional level. Baseball is "the business of baseball" at the pro level.

That single word difference - to those who know - cannot be understated.  For many pro players, the best time they had was college baseball.  At the pro level, it's a job - and a hard, underpaid job with little hope of the future, with your health at risk, and time ticking.  Pro ball is more akin to a shark tank; college ball is - well, college ball!

I was offered a GA position coming out of college, where I'd be working with a D1 football team and going to school. $10k stipend plus tuition paid for. Turned it down. Next year received an offer for a GA position for $10k plus tuition for 6 of 9 credit hours each semester. I had to pay the other 3 credit hours. That $10k would have become about $6k. Again, to work in D1 athletics. Turned it down.

All about choices sometimes. Sports are just like everything else... the top makes good money and the workers at the bottom don't... 

Great discussion. Theoretically, in a free market economy with supply and demand constraints nobody is over paid or under paid. The market will self correct when disparities occur.

Simply put, enough players continue to play for $1500 a month to maintain the status quo. When players stop playing, the salary will go up. If more want to play, the salary will go down. 

My own turned down an opportunity to play MiLB after his senior year in college for a part time internship at $25/hour while he finishes his engineering degree during his "super senior" year. He'll be a part time coach for his college team when he isn't working, so he'll be able to ease away from the game gradually.

For every kid like him, there are probably two who chased the dream. I wish them all good luck.

Scotty83 posted:

Millions of senior citizens, disabled citizens, disabled veterans, factory workers, office workers etc etc etc live off 1,500 a month pre tax and almost none of them are doing something they love for a living. 

Two jobs ago I was a production manager in a teir 2 automotive plant. Over 1,000 shop employees and not 1 of them making over 1,500 a month and that's 10 hours a day in a hot as crap factory. Pretty sure all of them would trade and take a pay cut to spend the day on a baseball field. 

Do I think they should get more? Yes because their owners make a whole lot more but they get a deaf ear when the whining starts. Sorry

The problem is this is an apple to oranges comparison - no-skill minimum wage factory jobs vs. a professional occupation where only a handful of those who would like the job have the applicable skills. I also have to assume, for the math to work, that those 10 hour a day jobs were not five days/wk, they probably got at least some vacation time and they didn't work in an environment where the guys in the jobs a level up had strong union representation while they were denied the same.

I think it might be wise to understand that the value of $1500 a month really depends on where you live.   $1500 goes a lot further in Missoula MT than it does in Las Vegas, for instance.   If you are playing for the Biloxi Shuckers your money might go further than if you are playing for the Durham Bulls, as another example

A couple of points...

As 3AND2 points out, a whole lot depends on where you are playing.  I would agree that $1,500 is probably more than enough if you land in the right spot and get some of the logistics ironed out for you (for instance, several friendly landlords or heaven forbid corporate housing next door to stadium).  My point is less about the dollars involved, and more about the stress of having to manage it given all the moving parts (transfers, roommate transfers, lining up off season work, etc).  Also, $1,500/mo is not $1,500/mo every month.  Maybe six months of MiLB salary, 2 months unpaid during spring training and other downtime and another 4 months hopefully working an off-season job - in that scenario it averages out to $1,250/mo.

As for the tier 2 auto plant two jobs ago, that guy must have a long work history.  Assuming 40 hr week, that puts these workers making $8.50/hr - not much higher than minimum wage unless we are talking about 20-30 years ago at which point the numbers are irrelavent to today's discussion.  Upside is that they get that salary 12 months out of the year and they know exactly where they are living during those 12 months - kind of simplifies life and makes the money go alot further.  If the town has a few such plants, then the workers can in fact go elsewhere if the pay is deemed unfair (MiLB is sort of like a small town with a single mill where everybody has to work - or leave town).  Not sure what 1,000 folks were doing for minimum wage at an auto parts supplier, but my experience is the fringe guys might be making minimum (while they sweep the floors) but lots  were making 2x that amount (basic machine operators) with the truly skilled folks making 3-4x that amount (know how much a skilled mold maker makes these days?).  I personally want to be a unionized longshoreman in LA making $100K+ with aspirations of becoming one of the crane operators possibly making twice that (kind of reminds me of the MLBPA).

I don't think that players make $1,500/mo until AA. I think starting salaries are around $1,200/mo or even less.

So, $1,200 less FICA and Medicare and other state fees (e.g., disability) leaves around $1050. Subtract $350 for rent (host family; an arms length apartment is far more and carries some form of lease), $150 for club house dues, add $350 for road per diem and a player has $900 for the month.  The player will pay for roughly 60 meals per month himself. Assume $8/meal (great high quality protein cannot be purchased for that; but a steady diet of Big Macs can) leaves roughly $420.  From that $420, the player pays gas, insurance, etc. - $15/day for everything beyond room and food.

Now, you can insist that your player doesnt need the post-game beer (to come down from the during-game chew) and can live on air and love for the game alone; but, that player is the exception not the rule.

And the player is also required - required mind you - to file a state income tax return in EVERY single state he player. Try finding an accountant to do that for some small sum - so it's mom and dad on the phone with multiple state tax entities trying to navigate the maze.

On top of that, the player's cost in the off-season skyrockets as he is contractually required to remain in first class physical condition, must take his skill lessons, live somewhere (mom/dad - so long as the town has the personal coaches needed), eat, pay for the car, insurance, cell phone, etc.. Of course, the player can work around his 4 - 6 hours a day needed for baseball - but the jobs available are limited (coaching, manual labor). 

A player living in an apartment is far worse off financially.

Also, while most employers look upon the baseball experience positively, the technical skills the player had during college (e.g., the ability to be fluent in EXCEL) all but disappear in several years in all areas except baseball.

IMO, chase the dream with your eyes wide open. Pursue the dream - but realize it's a dream and position yourself accordingly (good college grades, good college major, max MLB scholarship money possible (for those who get it), network for the future in college). For parents, recognize how much you are willing to subsidize the dream (a pro athlete can eat a lot of good protein, needs a car to get to work and play and gas and insurance, a phone, showers a lot, needs to join a work out facility, pay for lessons, etc.) and has a limited ability to bring in income.

For us, except for college tuition, his living expense INCREASED when compared to college.

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

This is an argument that would have worked well concerning major league contracts 50+ years ago. I also have always had a problem with the argument that the amount one is paid for their labor should be based on anything other than the worth of that labor - in this case the idea that a lack of responsibilities such as a family to support should somehow lessen the value of their work. Bottom line is that professional baseball is a business and the players are skilled workers who obtained at least some of those rare skills through hard work and sacrifice. To say they should be paid the same as the kid who walks down to McDonald's and gets a non-skilled position flipping burgers is an insult. The fact that they like their job shouldn't diminish its value. If pay is attached to how much one loves his job, sewage workers should be paid extraordinary wages.

roothog66 posted:

Scotty83 posted:

Millions of senior citizens, disabled citizens, disabled veterans, factory workers, office workers etc etc etc live off 1,500 a month pre tax and almost none of them are doing something they love for a living. 

Two jobs ago I was a production manager in a teir 2 automotive plant. Over 1,000 shop employees and not 1 of them making over 1,500 a month and that's 10 hours a day in a hot as crap factory. Pretty sure all of them would trade and take a pay cut to spend the day on a baseball field. 

Do I think they should get more? Yes because their owners make a whole lot more but they get a deaf ear when the whining starts. Sorry

The problem is this is an apple to oranges comparison - no-skill minimum wage factory jobs vs. a professional occupation where only a handful of those who would like the job have the applicable skills. I also have to assume, for the math to work, that those 10 hour a day jobs were not five days/wk, they probably got at least some vacation time and they didn't work in an environment where the guys in the jobs a level up had strong union representation while they were denied the same.

Actually the union thing kinda makes it a better example lol. Tier 2 are generally not unionized (which was the case where I worked) and are paid much lower. Teir 1 plants are unionized and make 3 to 4 times more. Although we could probably increase production if the best workers could get promoted from tier 2 up to tier 1. Sorry production joke. 

I understand a minor league player is a skilled labor position. But just like I'd tell employees I've had that made 1500 or less a month. If you don't like it do something else I don't want to hear you whine about it. 

roothog66 posted:

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

This is an argument that would have worked well concerning major league contracts 50+ years ago. I also have always had a problem with the argument that the amount one is paid for their labor should be based on anything other than the worth of that labor - in this case the idea that a lack of responsibilities such as a family to support should somehow lessen the value of their work. Bottom line is that professional baseball is a business and the players are skilled workers who obtained at least some of those rare skills through hard work and sacrifice. To say they should be paid the same as the kid who walks down to McDonald's and gets a non-skilled position flipping burgers is an insult. The fact that they like their job shouldn't diminish its value. If pay is attached to how much one loves his job, sewage workers should be paid extraordinary wages.

Define worth and skill?  The fact that they are skilled doesn't mean it has value.  How much "$$$$" does an average skilled A (entry level pro baseball skill set) level ball player bring into MLB?  The answer is less than what they are paid.  It's my understanding  that MLB pays for the players, coaches, and staff in return they receive a small percentage of the ticket sales.  While the MiLB pays for the facility and receives the advertising, concessions, ticket revenues.  I know our local MiLB loses money every year and they get a bulk of the proceeds.  Lets look at the independent league to get a real look at the value of the product.  It looks like they have a salary cap of $100K and a minimum of $800 a month.  So if your talent/skill level puts butts in seats to purchase $10 beers and $5 Hot dogs you get paid $100K.  If no one knows your name your value is $800 a month.  

The talent that MLB thinks will payoff (fill seats) gets paid with a signing bonus.  It seems to me they get paid exactly what they are worth.  Just because the top end (highly skilled) of an organization is making millions doesn't mean the entry level worker deserves a bigger piece.  

2017LHPscrewball posted:

A couple of points...

As 3AND2 points out, a whole lot depends on where you are playing.  I would agree that $1,500 is probably more than enough if you land in the right spot and get some of the logistics ironed out for you (for instance, several friendly landlords or heaven forbid corporate housing next door to stadium).  My point is less about the dollars involved, and more about the stress of having to manage it given all the moving parts (transfers, roommate transfers, lining up off season work, etc).  Also, $1,500/mo is not $1,500/mo every month.  Maybe six months of MiLB salary, 2 months unpaid during spring training and other downtime and another 4 months hopefully working an off-season job - in that scenario it averages out to $1,250/mo.

As for the tier 2 auto plant two jobs ago, that guy must have a long work history.  Assuming 40 hr week, that puts these workers making $8.50/hr - not much higher than minimum wage unless we are talking about 20-30 years ago at which point the numbers are irrelavent to today's discussion.  Upside is that they get that salary 12 months out of the year and they know exactly where they are living during those 12 months - kind of simplifies life and makes the money go alot further.  If the town has a few such plants, then the workers can in fact go elsewhere if the pay is deemed unfair (MiLB is sort of like a small town with a single mill where everybody has to work - or leave town).  Not sure what 1,000 folks were doing for minimum wage at an auto parts supplier, but my experience is the fringe guys might be making minimum (while they sweep the floors) but lots  were making 2x that amount (basic machine operators) with the truly skilled folks making 3-4x that amount (know how much a skilled mold maker makes these days?).  I personally want to be a unionized longshoreman in LA making $100K+ with aspirations of becoming one of the crane operators possibly making twice that (kind of reminds me of the MLBPA).

 

7 years ago and all shop employees made minimum wage plus production which would get the hardest worker up to 1,500 a month.

Two jobs ago would mean at most three jobs. I don't know anyone that hasn't had at least three jobs unless daddy gave them their job. 

I agree it's a regional thing both for the player and their cost of living. As well as readers of the article and the perception they have about 1,500 a month. There are a lot of really poor parts of this county with a lot of really poor people. 

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

I get what you're saying, but these guys are pursuing their career and earning a living in their desired career path.  Not working gigs between summer biking and winter skiing.  You are basically describing partying a couple of years before getting serious about pursuing your career vs. the actual undertaking of trying to make a living.  At some point you stopped chasing adrenaline and settled into making a life for yourself (I assume, maybe you're posting this from a mountain somewhere)

Very different in that you could choose to work more and ski less if financial need dictated.  These guys can't hold down a second job while playing MiLB.

As for your subsequent comments about skill and value, as well as Scotty's, the fact of the matter is that MLB all but has a monopoly and is exempt from antitrust laws.  They are taking full advantage of that exemption with their MiLB system

Nuke83 posted:

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

I get what you're saying, but these guys are pursuing their career and earning a living in their desired career path.  Not working gigs between summer biking and winter skiing.  You are basically describing partying a couple of years before getting serious about pursuing your career vs. the actual undertaking of trying to make a living.  At some point you stopped chasing adrenaline and settled into making a life for yourself (I assume, maybe you're posting this from a mountain somewhere)

Very different in that you could choose to work more and ski less if financial need dictated.  These guys can't hold down a second job while playing MiLB.

As for your subsequent comments about skill and value, as well as Scotty's, the fact of the matter is that MLB all but has a monopoly and is exempt from antitrust laws.  They are taking full advantage of that exemption with their MiLB system

I don't see it that different.  When I was skiing I thought I had a shot to make a living.  Glen Plake, Scott Schmidt, and the like were role models.  They were making good money extreme skiing.  When I left the small ski area I grew up on and moved to the "big" area, I soon realized there were 20 other skiers at each resort just as good and better than me.  Taking tougher lines and bigger drops.  After three years, as fun as it was, it was obvious I had to fall back on plan B and all I was really doing was having fun.  Moved back to my hometown finished my degree and moved on to the real world.  

I see MiLB career very similar accept they pay you and feed you.  Players don't have to go to work after a day at the park to make rent, keep the lights on, and beer in the fridge.  

Nuke83 posted:

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility.  They are given the chance to play a game.  When I was that age I was chasing adrenaline making just enough money to ski daily through the winter and mountian bike through the summer.  

 

As for your subsequent comments about skill and value, as well as Scotty's, the fact of the matter is that MLB all but has a monopoly and is exempt from antitrust laws.  They are taking full advantage of that exemption with their MiLB system

Regarding the antitrust laws, how does the Indy league get away with a $800 minimum?  I don't have ANY insight on the antitrust laws involved, but based on the court rulings MLB seems to be playing within the current rule set.  

Two jobs ago would mean at most three jobs. I don't know anyone that hasn't had at least three jobs unless daddy gave them their job. 

SCOTTY83 - Didn't mean to imply that you had numerous jobs, just that maybe you were talking about a job you had in 70's or 80's.  If I was one of those workers and saw a sea of 1,000 all working for minimum wage, and guessing the only promotion was to the job you held, I would have run away to somewhere else.  No shift supervisor making an extra 50 cents an hour?  No 25 cent bump after reaching 2-3 years?  Even McDonalds hands out regular raises and has a career path.  Would hate to think McDonalds was the premiere employer in town.

Laws and rules as currently interpreted allow MiLB to pay what it does (and I presume Indy league) - something to do with classifying the MiLB player as seasonal workers.  You can find all sorts of stories about guys getting stuck with others rent or having to pick and move and maybe end up paying rent in two places for a couple of months (assuming you don't stick it to your old roommates).  I would like to think MLB could pick up the tab and help with some of these type costs that can truly wipe out someone's budget through no fault of their own.  Might be nice to raise the minimum bar on clubhouse food (instead of what appears to be a wide variance in quality).  Could MLB not afford to fund the clubhouse budget outright and dispense with dues?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Two jobs ago would mean at most three jobs. I don't know anyone that hasn't had at least three jobs unless daddy gave them their job. 

SCOTTY83 - Didn't mean to imply that you had numerous jobs, just that maybe you were talking about a job you had in 70's or 80's.  If I was one of those workers and saw a sea of 1,000 all working for minimum wage, and guessing the only promotion was to the job you held, I would have run away to somewhere else.  No shift supervisor making an extra 50 cents an hour?  No 25 cent bump after reaching 2-3 years?  Even McDonalds hands out regular raises and has a career path.  Would hate to think McDonalds was the premiere employer in town.

Laws and rules as currently interpreted allow MiLB to pay what it does (and I presume Indy league) - something to do with classifying the MiLB player as seasonal workers.  You can find all sorts of stories about guys getting stuck with others rent or having to pick and move and maybe end up paying rent in two places for a couple of months (assuming you don't stick it to your old roommates).  I would like to think MLB could pick up the tab and help with some of these type costs that can truly wipe out someone's budget through no fault of their own.  Might be nice to raise the minimum bar on clubhouse food (instead of what appears to be a wide variance in quality).  Could MLB not afford to fund the clubhouse budget outright and dispense with dues?

Hahaha not saying it wasn't a crap hole place to work. Like I said former job. Yes there were supervisors, process managers etc. my point was I knew over 1,000 people that made the same or less and unfortunately it was the top place to work. It's probably one of the poorest areas in the state. 

Now my job requires me to work a lot with social security recipients. You want to guess how may of them live off of less than 1500 a month. 

I have no problem with milb players making more. I think they should. I just don't care for the whining about it when plenty of people do it and it's the best option they have. 

justbaseball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

if they get a signing bonus and can live off that for a bit great!  If they can't mom/dad/grandpa/grandma is footing over half the bills...it's like a really long college program.  I don't plan on cutting my kids off when they turn 18, if they need a phone, clothing, or food I don't have a problem keeping them on my phone plan or sending them a wal-mart giftcard where they can buy food and underwear...I just hope they don't put them in the same bag...*shudder*

Our younger son signed for very little.  23rd round college senior draft pick.  No leverage.  He used most of his signing bonus for a down payment on a used vehicle.  We co-signed for him, but we've never made one payment.  Even though we have the means, we haven't succumbed to that parental temptation.  Haven't paid for his phone or car insurance, gas, food...anything.  He got a speeding ticket - he paid.  His phone broke, he figured out how to get it fixed.  In the off season he worked 60 hours a week to save up for the season.  In fact, we told him while we wouldn't let him lay in a ditch if he fell in, we don't plan to pay for anything.

I think twice we sent him $200 just as a gift.  Once in Spring Training when they don't get paid.  He didn't expect it, nor ask for it....we just did it to give him a small break.  He is learning to be a real, independent, self-sufficient adult.  Its good.

He graduated from college with great grades and a good degree and had multiple job offers.  He wanted to pursue pro baseball for $1200/month.  His choice.  I applaud him.  But the choice needs to be clear for him to not pursue this too long if it isn't going well - or to keep going if he loves it enough.  We don't want him hanging on just because.

He's a great son - if anyone has 'earned' the right to get stuff from mom and dad - its him.  But he doesn't even want it.  And he is learning all about budgeting, life and choices. Our society is getting a strong, self sufficient, hard working, kind and good young man out of the other end of this.  I'm so darned proud of him - it would be hard to describe.  He knows that. We have a terrific relationship.  Its all good.  He will be fine.

I have 2 sons in MiLB and couldn't have said it better myself. And they don't mind the current pay situation - it's all in what you make it. FYI - they do have good healthcare year 'round and that is probably worth as much as their annual salary. 

Without naming names, can anyone provide some best case and worst case examples of where an organization either provides good logistical support or where they simply drop you in Timbuktu and let you figure it out on your own?  How do host families in rookie ball compare to a typical Cape Cod experience?

Remember seeing some comments in prior threads and some comments here, but figured I'd kick start this for a Friday discussion.

I think it really varies more town-to-town than MLB org-to-org.  The drop you in and you figure out scenario has been far more common than the here's your host family scenario for our two sons.  By about a 4-1 ratio.

In either case though, somehow they all figure it out.

I guess the upside to having these problems is that it means you made it to the MiLB and are in fact still living the dream.  

Ran across an article on some Triple A guys out of Nashville.  Hardest part was trying to find affordable housing as well as somewhere that would be flexible on the lease terms - said Craig's list and such were the best sources where you ended up dealing with an individual lessor.  Also said the recent stadium upgrade did wonders in using tickets as currency of sorts.  The old ballpark was truly crummy and, as such, tickets were of little value.  Have heard Nashville rents have gone through the roof during the past 4-5 years so that city might be a good  case study.  Had a chance to email author of the Deadspin article and she says she wants to do a series of articles, the good outcomes like the first article as well as examples of train wrecks where everything goes wrong, and admits that this initial one-week example was probably flawed in showing the guy winding up with $200 in his pockets as though that happened week-in, week-out.

More stories from an article today...

https://www.washingtonpost.com...nl_sports&wpmm=1

3and2Fastball posted:

I think it might be wise to understand that the value of $1500 a month really depends on where you live.   $1500 goes a lot further in Missoula MT than it does in Las Vegas, for instance.   If you are playing for the Biloxi Shuckers your money might go further than if you are playing for the Durham Bulls, as another example

Durham is AAA, so is Las Vegas.  Non 40 man rostered players start at 3500, 40 man rostered players and free agents can make100k plus.  You are way passed the poverty level at this point.  AA pay is 2500 per month.

The system is designed for most players not to be successful.  If after a few years your college player hasnt reached high A or AA, he probably doesnt belong at this particular job anymore. Most HS players will have a longer journey, so either get yourself a nice signing bonus or head to college for a degree or 3 years at the most.

One good point that was brought up. Independent leagues pay most players practically nothing per month, yet you will find many ex milb players and former college players trying to pull strings to get a roster spot on these teams, to try to get back to making 1200, 1500 a month with a milb team!!!!

Cant be all that bad!

Once again, milb isnt necessarily designed to make most players get to the ML level but rather to make up a team for those that will.

Kudos to those folks who understand that this is a choice, and that they as parents dont have to support their sons past a certain age and feel guilty about it.

When our son was being courted by scouts in HS, we made it clear that you'd better get enough signing bonus because if you turn down college we are not supporting you.  We said the same to our daughter in terms of support.

This is how you raise productive healthy adults who more than likely will be more successful at something other than baseball.  

FWIW, there is a big difference in how teams treat their minor leaguers.  My son never was served a peanut butter and jelly sandwich as a meal from the two organizations he worked for, yet I have heard about how many, even large market ones do. I think many teams make efforts to do as much as they can for their lower minor league players.  

chefmike7777 posted:

They are boys- underwear and food will go in the same bag . Truth is my kids are all still on my phone plan- just cheaper for them. They do pay if they are working and we cover if they are not. Same with health insurance, it makes no sense that they are not on my family plan as long as possible. Doesn't cost me a dime more.

Yes it does cost you more. Without the additional family members on the group plan the company would be paying less. Your monthly buy in would be less. Or you would be paid more.

Here's the rip off. It would be easy to say this isn't fair. Since the 70's the dollar has inflated 300%. MiLB minimum pay has increased 75%.

The argument against is its a market driven seasonal job (by the books). Therefore minimum wage doesn't apply. Also, no one is forcing anyone to be a minor leaguer. It's a leap of faith based on the player investing his time and talent.

Maybe it's why there are more and more players coming from poor Carribean environments. A college kid decides he isn't signing on for a long shot with a $1K bonus and $1200 a month for six months. He takes the 30-60K job. The poor Caribbean kid sees $1000 and it looks like a million bucks. He has nothing to lose signing. It may his only way out of poverty.

A friend's son was drafted by the Mets and assigned to Brooklyn. He rented a dorm room in a local college. He and his teammate's hit NYC. They thought the NYC women would be interested in pro ball players. They were. But not minor leaguers on beer money.

He made it to AAA. He eventually signed a sizable contract, all expenses paid to play in Japan for a couple of years. He came back and became AAA roster filler for several years making about 75k. His view was where else can he go to work for 75k for seven months. 

He's now a A level coach making a lot less. His dad knew he was a baseball lifer from the beginning. The kid (now in his 30's) said he'll quit baseball when they tear the uniform off his back.

RJM, good points .Didn't realize it was only 300%. With what you said on foriegn born. I wonder what the makeup of teams was back in the day? Would think not near as many foriegn born. I get whats said next "free market" I would agree. Its just didn't Mr. Smith mention over and over a word that seems like most have forgot these days when free markets/capitalizm  is slammed.    The  "MORALS" that are supposed to go hand in hand with the system.

RJM or anyone. Out of 1200 ML players (40 man x 30 teams), what percentage is american born vs foreign?

TPM posted:

RJM or anyone. Out of 1200 ML players (40 man x 30 teams), what percentage is american born vs foreign?

my guess 35% foreign born.

Opening day numbers (25 man roster) listed as 27.5%

NYdad2017 posted:

Opening day numbers (25 man roster) listed as 27.5%

So out of 750 players, 27.5% or roughly 206 players are American born, opening day?

2015 opening day rosters article ...

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/...born-outside-the-us/

These young men are no doubt among the most exploited workers in the entire US.  Their employer is exempt from many ordinary regulations that apply to every other industry.   And their employer is an extraordinarily profitable multi-billion dollar entertainment industry.  I have complete sympathy for them as exploited labor and none for their employers.  To dismiss them as whiners, as some on this board are prone to do.... is well .... 

But then I grew up in union household and to this day tend to sympathize with working stiffs. 

Ok sorry,  asked what % americans vs foreign born.  I dont see the mention of 35%.

Sluggerdad,

If you are taking about milb players being exploited, I dont necessarily agree. American born players get drafted and have an option NOT to sign. Trust me, no one suffers playing this game unless they get hurt.

As far as exploiting foreign born players, I think MLB has cleaned that up in the DR and other latin countries, used to be really bad.

However, keep in mind that these guys ARE the ones who live frugally.

They send their paychecks home. Can you just see your sons doing that to help mom and dad?

I really dont feel badly for anyone, and I dont think they would want you to feel badly either.

Now if this job really cramps your sons lifestyle, maybe he doesnt belong there. Because the struggle IS real.  

I have said this many times, and will again. My son is who he is because of his professional baseball experience.  Yea, he made some bucks at it, but it wasnt about the money. The day it became that, he knew that it was time to walk away.

MiLB players ARE exploited.  Their employers are exempt from  labor laws that apply in every other sphere -- because of their antitrust exemption.  They lack basic labor mobility within baseball -- i.e. cannot sell their labor to the highest bidder. Imagine what salaries in your own field, whatever it is, would be if employers were permitted to collude on wages and workers lacked basic labor mobility and even collective bargaining rights.  If major leaguers were exploited before the days of free agency, minor leaguers are even more so. 

Try making, say, airline pilots work under the thumb of the airlines in the same way that Minor league players do. See what would happen.

Labor solidarity is not a form of pity!

Sounds like the MILB is oppressed.  Where is Kaepernick when you need him!?

Sitting down - get it

real green posted:

I think a big part that we are missing is the fact that we are talking about young men with little responsibility. 

Utterly disagree. #1: this is a job, and as such, they have a responsibility to themselves and the organization to continue to improve and deliver value back to the organization. #2: the whole point of this topic is that they're responsible for doing what they can to get by on as little as possible while fulfilling #1.

If a young man is not fulfilling either one of these main responsibilities, then he will wash out rather quickly.

+1 Slugger

I'm all about capitalism and paying what the market will bear but these guys are being paid chump change and although it's a dream to play the game, it has a salary, benefits and responsibilities that are all synonymous with a J.O.B. without the compensatory pay scale often found in a competitive business /economic environment. 

Maybe this is baseball's way to weed out guys by/at  a certain age/level and replace them with younger, eager , hungrier & cheaper talent?

Anyone have any ideas on how much they should get paid?  In prior threads, some folks said that they ought to clock in and clock out and get paid by the hour (or at least ensure minimum pay is earned based on hours worked). 

I am of the opinion that $1 is not the same in all cities based on a myriad of circumstances, therefore I would propose some focus on living standards as opposed to cash pay (not that they shouldn't get some additional pay).  Would also promote much larger increases based on service time (does the single A player actually get a $50 monthly raise starting his second year?).

I know this sounds like I am being a "fence rider", but I really am not sure where I fall on this debate.  Is the pay low?  Sure is.  But, as many have stated ( with sons that have been there and done that ) it is a choice.  I agree with that as well.

Someone made a point about MLB clubs having corporate housing that players could use for a specified amount and it would help with moving and breaking a lease or leaving your roommates with covering your part of the rent until they found someone to take over.  That seems like a very good idea to me.  Maybe the clubs could build an apartment complex that could serve something like a dorm.  I also agree that they club should include food and workout facilities for these player as they expect the player to be in top shape.  But as someone also stated, maybe this is the "weeding" process.  The bonus babies really don't have to worry about most of these issues.

The pay is obviously not too low.  If it were, you wouldn't see so many guys willing to work at that pay rate.

Any time one guy finds it too low for his liking, if he retires, the competition for his spot is keen.  Anyone running a business knows that when that's the case, your pay scale is just fine.  I wish the competition were as rabid for openings at my business!  I pay a lot more, too, but apparently young men prefer the baseball line of work.  And they're evidently willing to forgo money for it.

younggun posted:

I know this sounds like I am being a "fence rider", but I really am not sure where I fall on this debate.  Is the pay low?  Sure is.  But, as many have stated ( with sons that have been there and done that ) it is a choice.  I agree with that as well.

Someone made a point about MLB clubs having corporate housing that players could use for a specified amount and it would help with moving and breaking a lease or leaving your roommates with covering your part of the rent until they found someone to take over.  That seems like a very good idea to me.  Maybe the clubs could build an apartment complex that could serve something like a dorm.  I also agree that they club should include food and workout facilities for these player as they expect the player to be in top shape.  But as someone also stated, maybe this is the "weeding" process.  The bonus babies really don't have to worry about most of these issues.

 

Well, cant speak for all organizations but generally housing wasnt an issue. All teams son played for had available options during season and for all milb players during spring training you are provided housing and meals. Once a player moves up someone takes their place.  The tigers and many other organizations have dorms and cafeterias.  

Look at it this way, teams are like college programs, some are very rich and some are not.  Teams are not all equal in their milb systems.

Once a player gets to high A things change.  Florida high A teams play in the teams spring training facilities and travel is good.   Some leagues are tougher than others. Son liked the eastern leagues better than the midwest and west teams.  For the most part HS players have to live where they tell you, and as a parent you should prefer it that way.

Trust me, its not all that bad. Players who really want to be there find a way to make it work. You do need to be a man and figure things out for yourself, thats how it works.  

And you dont need transportation, thats an option. And you will have a gym at your disposal or the nearby gym gives you a great deal!

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/...em-than-the-players/

Maybe in the off season some of these MiLB kids could start umping LL games and work their way up into the MiLB Ump's union one day and start making some real money.

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.  Yes, Milb player pay is still really stupid.  However, the ump pay isn't exactly a financial motivator either...  so, with the new improved agreement, the guy who reaches the highest level of the minors after 15 years of service will still be earning less than 48K per year.  Yikes.

Lots of travel.  Does this equate to a full time job for most of these guys?

I'd also say that the chances of advancing from the minors to the majors is just as bad for the umps as the players. Perhaps even harder for the more talented. If your talent is major league level in the minors, you'll make the jump. I'm not sure if it is the same with every umpire - probably more politics there than with players.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/...em-than-the-players/

Maybe in the off season some of these MiLB kids could start umping LL games and work their way up into the MiLB Ump's union one day and start making some real money.

Really umpiring isn't a bad gig if you have the temperament for it.

My kid regularly pulls in $200-300 a week umpiring youth baseball games. When baseball is out of season he does soccer and makes about the same.

I'm surprised that there aren't more college age kids around here doing it.  For me it sure beats waiting tables or cooking Big Macs.

Also saw an article on Bleacher Report about MMA fighting - the headline read along the lines of getting punched in the head for $40k a year.  I'm thinking about writing a sister piece about having a 90 mph fastballs throw at you for $12k a year.  Started reading and saw where these guys have maybe 2 bouts a year and some can get something like $50k extra if they drop the other fighter - now their making $90k. for maybe 15 minutes in the ring and maybe 1,500 hours of training.  

My kid thought about umping but lucked into a job at a local golf course.  I wanted to get him a job roofing in the summer but they they don't hire teenagers to do that anymore.  Now he is a part time marshall, part time cart washer, part time food critic and loves nothing more than to take a cart out for a spin.  He's hoping for a promotion this summer - maybe full time marshall.

If you got rid of the team's ability to tie up  "employees" via the draft etc. you would see how much they are really worth.  I suspect we would find on average they are worth more then 1,500 per month....for 6 months.  We pay our  interns more then milb players.

Poor things.  We pay about $1500 per month for my kid to play in college.

SultanofSwat posted:

Poor things.  We pay about $1500 per month for my kid to play in college.

Very insightful.

If anyone plans any career in baseball, the bottom is where everyone will begin.  

Its how you embrace your opportunity.

Most of all you have to love what you are doing.

NOT  a simple issue for sure. But it is totally the choice of the player. That is why I am an avid supporter of kids going to college and not signing right out of high school unless they get a nice sized signing bonus. Yes , they are kids but after a few years they become men. Men who must earna living and support themselves and eventually a family. 

"Chasing the dream" makes some people do things they otherwise would never do. No parent would suggest to his adult son that he settle for making 1500 month instead of getting or finishing a college degree unless there was a long term goal and dream attached to the decision.

TPM posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

Poor things.  We pay about $1500 per month for my kid to play in college.

Very insightful.

If anyone plans any career in baseball, the bottom is where everyone will begin.  

Its how you embrace your opportunity.

Most of all you have to love what you are doing.

Full tuition & board PLUS $1,500 each month?  WOW!  I thought most college players played for free and many of them actually got discounted room & board to boot.

Never got a 50% raise, but I imagine I could do some big things if I did.  For you typical young MiLB player, a 50% raise (say from $1,200/mo to $1,800/mo), they too could do big things - like get their own bedroom in that 3BR apartment they share instead of having to double up (use the blow up mattress for guests going forward).  Maybe they could incrementally improve their diet.  Maybe they could afford to sign up for a few classes during offseason to keep working towards a degree.  That huge increase would take their baseball earnings from around $10k annually to a whopping $15k annually.  I'm all for character building, but I just don't really get how getting paid the current ridiculously low wages makes good sense.  

Maybe folks just love hearing the funny stories about all the creative ways kids come up with to survive.  $15k a year is not going to make many folks complacent, but rather would allow these kids to focus a little more on baseball and less on finding new hiding spots for their peanut butter.

I am of course not privy to how things operate everywhere.  But I can tell you around here minor leaguers can make good money giving lessons. They could also officiate basketball during the winter. These are two things that are easily accomplished. They are begging for officials. These are also two part time jobs that would dovetail incredibly easily with their minor league baseball career. So let's stop pretending that they 'have to' survive on their minor league salary alone. My son would sign for a stick of gum for that type of opportunity. It is an opportunity he is almost 100% certain to never get. Those who will never get that incredible opportunity don't want to hear the whining from those who do. If it's such a hardship don't do it!  Leave it to some kid who would kill for the opportunity and won't complain!!!

If it's such a hardship don't do it!  Leave it to some kid who would kill for the opportunity and won't complain!!!

If my kid were ever to be given the opportunity, believe me I would be helping out in an effort to ensure that he has the best chance of making it up the ladder.  That said, our personal take on the matter is somewhat beside the point.  Simply put, the time commitment and length of contract a profession baseball player has put upon them should require some higher level of compensation.  As a few articles have pointed out, most everyone working at the MiLB stadiums is probably making more than the early year players themselves.  Throw in equipment requirements, training and the possibility that you are told to report to work during the off-season with no extra pay just begs for a little higher pay scale (don't get the lawyer started talking about minimum wage laws as a minimum starting point- that would probably give these guys a solid 100% pay raise day 1).  I'll gladly listen to the parents who have had sons go through the process and maybe point out some real life stories of how to make the pay stretch, but I don't really think us outsiders should have this opinion that MiLB is some gap year fling where you stay in hostels while seeing the world.  The comment that you don't want to hear them whine because your kid probably won't get the chance is not a compelling argument.

Anyone know what the smallest signing bonus was for which a team sued for "desertion" before the 7 years was up?

Aren't basically all expenses paid (travel, hotel, food)? Still not great of  course but you can probably survive if you don't have a family or wife has a job.

Dominik85 posted:

Aren't basically all expenses paid (travel, hotel, food)? Still not great of  course but you can probably survive if you don't have a family or wife has a job.

Nope. When you're on the road, yeah, you get a per diem. Some clubs do better than others at providing food in the clubhouse. While your travel is taken care of, it isn't like you can get a place to live that only requires you to pay rent on the days you're in town.

Food is not paid for (dues pays for game food and can vary greatly according to folks on here).  Hotel is  paid for, but that does not relieve the player of having to have a permanent residence, so no real benefit.  MiLB umpires new contract says hotels must have interior entrances - guessing MiLB has no such restrictions and not much fun bunking with someone at the cozy Motel 6 (or worse, the Acme Motel).  Travel is free and they give you lots of it, although I don't think the buses have free WiFi yet.  I will admit they pay you enough to survive, but should that really be the case?  I do think it is highly foolish to get married and start a family while chasing this dream unless the spouse has solid employment and is on board with the journey.  It's like these guys have reached that last camp on Mt Everest before reaching the summit, at which point they are told to turn off their oxygen and take off their parkas so they can see who really wants to make the summit.  I think they simply deserve a little more for the work they put in and the entertainment (as a group) they provide at the MiLB and help support at the MLB level.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

If it's such a hardship don't do it!  Leave it to some kid who would kill for the opportunity and won't complain!!!

If my kid were ever to be given the opportunity, believe me I would be helping out in an effort to ensure that he has the best chance of making it up the ladder.  That said, our personal take on the matter is somewhat beside the point.  Simply put, the time commitment and length of contract a profession baseball player has put upon them should require some higher level of compensation.  As a few articles have pointed out, most everyone working at the MiLB stadiums is probably making more than the early year players themselves.  Throw in equipment requirements, training and the possibility that you are told to report to work during the off-season with no extra pay just begs for a little higher pay scale (don't get the lawyer started talking about minimum wage laws as a minimum starting point- that would probably give these guys a solid 100% pay raise day 1).  I'll gladly listen to the parents who have had sons go through the process and maybe point out some real life stories of how to make the pay stretch, but I don't really think us outsiders should have this opinion that MiLB is some gap year fling where you stay in hostels while seeing the world.  The comment that you don't want to hear them whine because your kid probably won't get the chance is not a compelling argument.

Anyone know what the smallest signing bonus was for which a team sued for "desertion" before the 7 years was up?

As any lawyer knows we ALL have a right to express ourselves. And doctors don't need to be an open heart surgery patient to understand how to be an open heart surgeon. I don't have to have 'been there done that' to have an informed and educated opinion.  It's a free country for they don't want the opportunity they can pass it to someone who does. 

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

2020dad posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

If it's such a hardship don't do it!  Leave it to some kid who would kill for the opportunity and won't complain!!!

If my kid were ever to be given the opportunity, believe me I would be helping out in an effort to ensure that he has the best chance of making it up the ladder.  That said, our personal take on the matter is somewhat beside the point.  Simply put, the time commitment and length of contract a profession baseball player has put upon them should require some higher level of compensation.  As a few articles have pointed out, most everyone working at the MiLB stadiums is probably making more than the early year players themselves.  Throw in equipment requirements, training and the possibility that you are told to report to work during the off-season with no extra pay just begs for a little higher pay scale (don't get the lawyer started talking about minimum wage laws as a minimum starting point- that would probably give these guys a solid 100% pay raise day 1).  I'll gladly listen to the parents who have had sons go through the process and maybe point out some real life stories of how to make the pay stretch, but I don't really think us outsiders should have this opinion that MiLB is some gap year fling where you stay in hostels while seeing the world.  The comment that you don't want to hear them whine because your kid probably won't get the chance is not a compelling argument.

Anyone know what the smallest signing bonus was for which a team sued for "desertion" before the 7 years was up?

As any lawyer knows we ALL have a right to express ourselves. And doctors don't need to be an open heart surgery patient to understand how to be an open heart surgeon. I don't have to have 'been there done that' to have an informed and educated opinion.  It's a free country for they don't want the opportunity they can pass it to someone who does. 

I guess I got a little sidetracked when you used the term "whining" - kind of dismisses the "informed and educated" opinions of those apparently living the dream.  I guess they should suck it up so they can keep living that dream.

I think a lot of the guys "whining" aren't really looking to make a killing and probably don't expect much benefit themselves, but would prefer players going forward be able to have decent accommodations and decent nutrition.  Kind of sad when you have a competitive advantage in the workplace cause daddy sends you some extra money to live on every month.

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

Excellent Point....I'll add to it.  Every kid my son knows graduated from HS....so there's everyone is equal to that point.   Most of his friends (including him) are attending a four year college....so still even right??   He's a sophomore....he and a lot of kids haven't decided on a major yet...so yes, all square to this point.  Next year, his friends will declare a major and take classes for their major for 2 years....for the sake of this argument we'll say accounting.   At the end of their senior year, those accounting kids will head off to a job paying $50k-ish/year.   All for basically 2 years of specialized classes....the first 14 were just like everyone else's right??

A baseball kid who's going to get drafted after his senior year has probably put in at least 6-8 years of work honing his craft, whether it's pitching, hitting, fielding....whatever....IN ADDITION TO HIS SCHOOL.  He's given up his summers, his after school time in the winter, his entire spring and likely most of his fall....IN ADDITION TO HIS SCHOOL.   If he is lucky, he'll get a signing bonus....likely in the $10k-20K range for most players.   Then he gets to start working for What amounts to $10K/year....while his friends are making $50k......Same amount of school, same classes, but a completely different outcome.   Sure, he has a chance to earn millions someday.....so does his friend at the accounting office.  But it if it takes him 8 years to get to the majors, his income to that point will be somewhere around $300K less than his friend who has a big house, 2 cars and a place at the lake.  

Don't get me wrong, as others have said, baseball players know going in what they are getting in to.  I've got a couple years and if things go right, this may be a decision my son has to make.  I can tell you right now that it's gonna be a fight.  He'll want to play ball, I'll be for him giving it a shot, but his mother, the big whig marketing wiz with a huge company making big $$$ will tell him to join his friends in the accounting department and get on with his life.....lol    I guess we'll see how it goes

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

Here's the ripoff right here ...

Since the 70's the dollar has inflated 300%. MiLB minimum pay has increased 75%.

If MiLB salaries had kept up with inflation the players would have reasonable pay and eat better. Nutrition is an important part of physical development. On the road the players get a $20 per diem for thee meals and clubhouse tips. I'm guessing minor leaguers aren't sending clothes to the dry cleaners on road trips.

BTW people, if you ask minor league players how they like "living the dream" almost all most all of them will tell you they're NOT "living the dream" . . . . yet.   I've asked a few of them the question about how they liked "living the dream" and I'd get this puzzled look on their face as they reply: "this isn't the dream.  the dream is when we're called up to the majors."  Yes, they enjoy the work that they do . . . but it's "the dream" they're working towards and hoping for.  It's the carrot that's held out to them that keeps them enduring the low pay, the low living working conditions until they make it or they're thrown away (released) for a new crop.  I suppose that because these people are so young, it's acceptable that they can be treated this way.  And if it's done in some other professions, that makes everything OK too.  

Go44dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

It's entertainment business.   It's a game only if it's for fun and no profit motives involved.

Truman posted:

Go44dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

It's entertainment business.   It's a game only if it's for fun and no profit motives involved.

OK, it's an unfair, low paying entertainment business.  Don't play.

Go44dad posted:

Truman posted:

Go44dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

It's entertainment business.   It's a game only if it's for fun and no profit motives involved.

OK, it's an unfair, low paying entertainment business.  Don't play.

Turning away from a problem or having a problem go to someone else doesn't solve the problem.

Go44dad posted:

Truman posted:

Go44dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

It's entertainment business.   It's a game only if it's for fun and no profit motives involved.

OK, it's an unfair, low paying entertainment business.  Don't play.

Go leave it to you to sum things up so well in so few words!  Last time I checked nobody is forcing these guys. And only a couple people have begrudgingly admitted that it opens doors for a lifetime. If my son was miserable doing something I would definitely advise him. It to do it. This is what it is. It's the progression of things. In travel ball we pay more than we would like for our kids to play ball. In college with the help of excellent grades and a little baseball money maybe it's close to a wash. In minor league ball it's better than a wash at least you get a little something for the effort. Then if you make it all the way it's big cash. If you don't like any step along the 'journey' and can't simply 'enjoy the ride'. Then quit!!  

Just to be clear I am all for the minor leaguers getting more money. I wish we could all get more money. But that doesn't mean what's happening now is somehow egregiously wrong and if all of us don't see that we are horrible people!  Everything is a value judgement. That comes down to each and every individuals choice. Personally I hope you guys convince thousands, maybe 10,000+ kids from the class of 2020 that they shouldn't tolerate this...  

Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest.  Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish.  Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt.  And those that still can't adapt will perish.

its also supply and demand.  There is an endless supply of young, and not so young, men willing to try for the chance at the dream of MLB.  There is not an endless supply of programmers that are capable of making 6 figures.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest.  Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish.  Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt.  And those that still can't adapt will perish.

its also supply and demand.  There is an endless supply of young, and not so young, men willing to try for the chance at the dream of MLB.  There is not an endless supply of programmers that are capable of making 6 figures.

It's not supply and demand.  S/D suggests an open and free market where the rate (in this case the pay) is set freely by the market at an equilibrium where the two balance, and the supply (ballplayers) has the opportunity to move freely until that equilibrium is established.  MiLB is anything but that.  The fact that programmers make 6 figures IS supply and demand.  It's exactly that.  If there were a higher number (availability) of competent programmers, the corresponding pay would be less.  If there are fewer programmers, the pay is more. 

Just because a party (ballplayers) is willing to be taken advantage of, doesn't mean they are not being taken advantage of.

2020dad posted:

Go44dad posted:

Truman posted:

Go44dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

To all those who somehow think that because it's baseball (the "dream"), an employee should be thankful for earning $4/hr, would you think the same way if your kid who got his dream job on Wall Street, Apple, Amazon or whatever, should be thankful about earning the same $4/hr?

What is it about baseball that makes this job different? Is it the fact that teams collectively agree to pay these wages, prohibit the players from marketing their talent in a free market, control their lives 24/7/365 without paying for it - what is the magic here?  Kids who play pro-ball spent over a decade developing their talent into the top amateurs in the world - and simply don't get paid even minimum wage. Meanwhile, the kid who learned computer programming over that decade steps out of school for a six figure job. The competition for those top jobs are just as fierce, yet free markets dictate the terms of these contracts; but, somehow, baseball is different (maybe because it's the same game as he played since he was old enough walk).

While playing proball is a great experience and can be used as a stepping stone to all sorts of jobs - inside and outside of baseball, it is a tough road and often subsidized by parents. Simply put, baseball has succeeded in off loading the overhead to those parents who love watching their sons play a familiar game.

An industry run my billionaires off loading the cost of health clubs, lessons, even baseball gloves and cleats to middle class parents. Kudos to the system!

It's a game.

It's entertainment business.   It's a game only if it's for fun and no profit motives involved.

OK, it's an unfair, low paying entertainment business.  Don't play.

Go leave it to you to sum things up so well in so few words!  Last time I checked nobody is forcing these guys. And only a couple people have begrudgingly admitted that it opens doors for a lifetime. If my son was miserable doing something I would definitely advise him. It to do it. This is what it is. It's the progression of things. In travel ball we pay more than we would like for our kids to play ball. In college with the help of excellent grades and a little baseball money maybe it's close to a wash. In minor league ball it's better than a wash at least you get a little something for the effort. Then if you make it all the way it's big cash. If you don't like any step along the 'journey' and can't simply 'enjoy the ride'. Then quit!!  

I would not say it opens doors for a lifetime. Yeah you can give lessons but the number of high paying jobs in pro and college baseball is really not high, even in lower level pro ball many jobs don't pay all that well.

Washing out in the minors is not really a dream, you basically have to start your career again. You could say playing the minors is like a lottery but I still don't think it is a good practice to have talent do an unpaid internship  (the really good companies like silicon Valley type have stepped away from that too I think and pay their interns well albeit their probably would be a lot of good code writers who would do half a year for google for free (because if you do well it basically means you can pick your job after that).

Of course you could say there are enough others who do it and this is true but still it might hurt the talent level of baseball because it might make some good two way hs athletes to pick basketball or football over baseball.

"Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest. Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish. Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt. And those that still can't adapt will perish."

Not only isn't it supply and demand, as 9and7 points out - since baseball stands alone in sports in a judicially created fiction of an anti-trust exemption - it is not survival of the fittest either. Making it to MLB has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a player has a positive or negative cash flow from his $1500 (actually less in the lower minors).  This is not some sort of perverse budgeting test where guys who save a shekel advance and others don't. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest.  Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish.  Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt.  And those that still can't adapt will perish.

its also supply and demand.  There is an endless supply of young, and not so young, men willing to try for the chance at the dream of MLB.  There is not an endless supply of programmers that are capable of making 6 figures.

$1,500/month for 12 months starting out would actually be a pretty good start.  Now try making it on $1,100 for 5, maybe six months, not having any real control over which city you play ball in, having to work through changes in living arrangements (still love to know how they manage deposits and utilities) and then presumably pack up and head "home" where maybe you can start maybe making some real money working weekends as a ref.

Egregious might be a little strong, but I'd much rather hear some MiLB player whine about living on $1,100/month (gross let's not even discuss deducts - almost like working/living in the old factory town and getting paid with company scrip) than I would some MLB player talking about their lower share of revenue anyday.  It's barely legal and it just doesn't feel right understanding the contribution to the bigger cause (i.e. MLB superstars or future stars) that these guys make.  Is it true that the single A clubby actually makes more than most of the players?

GOOSEGG - What's a shekel?  Regardless, good point!

Goosegg posted:

"Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest. Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish. Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt. And those that still can't adapt will perish."

Not only isn't it supply and demand, as 9and7 points out - since baseball stands alone in sports in a judicially created fiction of an anti-trust exemption - it is not survival of the fittest either. Making it to MLB has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a player has a positive or negative cash flow from his $1500 (actually less in the lower minors).  This is not some sort of perverse budgeting test where guys who save a shekel advance and others don't. 

If you can adapt you thrive.  If there are 400,000 people qualified and ready to do your job it's a form or supply and demand.  You take their demands or they find a different supply.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest.  Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish.  Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt.  And those that still can't adapt will perish.

its also supply and demand.  There is an endless supply of young, and not so young, men willing to try for the chance at the dream of MLB.  There is not an endless supply of programmers that are capable of making 6 figures.

$1,500/month for 12 months starting out would actually be a pretty good start.  Now try making it on $1,100 for 5, maybe six months, not having any real control over which city you play ball in, having to work through changes in living arrangements (still love to know how they manage deposits and utilities) and then presumably pack up and head "home" where maybe you can start maybe making some real money working weekends as a ref.

Egregious might be a little strong, but I'd much rather hear some MiLB player whine about living on $1,100/month (gross let's not even discuss deducts - almost like working/living in the old factory town and getting paid with company scrip) than I would some MLB player talking about their lower share of revenue anyday.  It's barely legal and it just doesn't feel right understanding the contribution to the bigger cause (i.e. MLB superstars or future stars) that these guys make.  Is it true that the single A clubby actually makes more than most of the players?

I look at it like this.  If you went fairly high in the draft then you have some savings. If you went fairly low in the draft you are there for the love of the game and would do it for no salary.

It is the GOLD-en RULE!!!

Hmmm???  Like baseball players, indentured laborers have/had a choice as to whether or not to sign a contract.  Does having such a choice negate problem(s) with such contracts?

There seems to be a misconception about who makes it to proball and who doesn't.

There is not a line - like at a grocery store - whereby if a patron leaves the line, the next person moves forward. That is not how the proball system works.

Every player signed or drafted (courtesy picks aside) has been identified by his organization (and probably others, though it only takes one) as having a potential MLB tool. While some players may be missed, no team signs and devotes time and coaching to a player who doesn't have that potential tool.

There are no limits to the number of players a team may sign; there is no finite number of hotel beds available in ST which cap the number, no rule - written or unwritten - restricting teams from signing players who that organization has identified as having that MLB tool.

So, while there are 400,000 players lined up waiting for the one who refuses out of principle to accept $4/hr, there will still be those same 400,000 waiting while the principled player chooses another path.

Pro ball is unique animal; protected by an anamolous legal precedent, with high paid lobbyists (see the result of the lobbying in the proposed Save Our Pastime Act [giving baseball - and baseball alone - a minimum wage exemption]), and people who somehow equate that product with their recollection of carefree youth and HS baseball. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

"Sorry people, but, it's simply survival of the fittest. Those better adapted to living on $1500 a month will flourish. Those ill adapted will attempt the get their parents to help them adapt. And those that still can't adapt will perish."

Not only isn't it supply and demand, as 9and7 points out - since baseball stands alone in sports in a judicially created fiction of an anti-trust exemption - it is not survival of the fittest either. Making it to MLB has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a player has a positive or negative cash flow from his $1500 (actually less in the lower minors).  This is not some sort of perverse budgeting test where guys who save a shekel advance and others don't. 

If you can adapt you thrive.  If there are 400,000 people qualified and ready to do your job it's a form or supply and demand.  You take their demands or they find a different supply.

Just because one can swing a bat and throw a ball doesn't make anyone qualified to play at the MiLB level.  If that were so you wouldn't have the draft and you wouldn't have the different levels within MiLB.  MLB wants the very best ball players to provide competitive training for their top prospects.  The statistical numbers the MLB collects bears that out.  So, there really aren't that many qualified players waiting in the wings.  The principle of supply and demand isn't at work at the MiLB levels.