IHSA ... What!!!!!!!!!!

sorry...Item "F" should read "principal"

Are you sure that you are looking at the Illinois site? (IHSA)

Sounds like Iowa to me. (IHSA)

no, it is Illinois. www.IHSA.com

go to "baseball" and the "summer baseball on pdf"

TALENTSEEKR,

You freaked me out, the link should be to www.ihsa.ORG. I was confused at first with all the horse riding info. Anyway the direct link to the document is http://www.ihsa.org/forms/2002-03/ba/subasb.pdf

What TALENTSEEKR says is true....I'm glad my son is out of HS baseball now!

thanks for the help bigmw!

I read it.

I don't think any big schools have discontinued or will discontinue their spring programs.

I would suppose that some smaller Class A programs (say less than 200 student high schools) might be affected...the kids might have to be planting crops and milking cows or something in the early springtime!

BeenthereIL,

I guess what is disappointing to me is that it appears the IHSA is advocating moving the HS season knowing it will conflict with travel ball. It may never happen but they're certainly suggesting they would like it to.

if the IHSA moves or even thinks about moving the baseball season to summer...i think you might see the end of HS baseball. i think kids would pick travel over HS if it came down to it. you think about the other states and when their season is. summer is when the best HS players from around the nation play...just look at all the local travel teams that go out of state to find the better competition. we all know that up here in the "north" the kids have to find the best competiion to play and do not get to play year round. i doubt it will happen but if the IHSA moves the season, it would be the worst thing that ever happened to HS baseball in Illinois.

I believe Ihsa Baseball is run by a bunch of people who were cut by their highschool team or were just too scared to play the game, and now they have a chance to ruin it for all the people who were and are good player's!

So when would you play your Sr. Season? Between Jr. and Sr. years or during the summer after you graduate. If they do this will some players lose a season?

Let me try and set the IHSA thing straight. Here goes. The past two years the certain principals has proposed starting the spring season in mid to later April and having the spring tournament in early July. I don't think the IHSA was behind the initial suggestion. It was from some schools down south that tried to get moving on this. Most schools in this area made it well known that this was a bad idea. The issue of travel ball never arised as a reason to kill this movement. Some coaches were sick of playing baseball in 25 degree weather. However, most coaches felt like it would be next to impossible to run the same type of HS program with half a team of graduated seniors. We were all seniors at one time, do you remember what your focus was on in July the summer before college. This gets brought up and shot down year after year.

Have some faith guys! Spring baseball in this area isn't going anywhere.

this will have zero affect, any further discussion on this is useless

The Ballfan and JimD45 are correct about the origin of this plan and that the spring HS season will continue as it has been. HS coaches in our area are not interested in moving their season. There is no need to be concerned about the spring season moving back.
But, high school and junior high players and their parents should be concerned about the expansion of the High School Summer season. A growing number of HS baseball coaches are very interested in expanding their Summer program and are working toward eliminating summer travel baseball programs. You can look around and see quite a few high schools that are now scheduling week-end games and entering tournaments. There are a number of schools that forbid their players from playing for outside teams. Lockport is just the latest to do so. In no way do these coaches have the best interest of the player in mind in these efforts. Some of these coaches are jealous of the impact that summer travel baseball has had in the development and exposure that the players have gained and feel that they need to re-gain control of their players.
I think that Hit400 is incorrect that players will choose their travel teams ahead of high school ball. Most of the players will not be able to risk losing their spring season by choosing to play with a travel team in the summer. Only the absolute top level of HS player will have the clout needed to stand up to his HS coach's demands. The second tier player, that is still a viable college baseball prospect, will not enjoy the luxury of choosing to go against the will of his high school coach. Those players will suffer significantly from the expansion of the HS summer season.
If I were a parent of a high school or future high school player, I would be very concerned about the direction that HS summer baseball is headed.

Rawlings...it is true that top level players will have some clout and will choose to continue playing travel ball. most of the second tier kids do not play summer ball other than their school teams anyway. i am just saying that if the hs season occurs at the same time as travel ball...meaning summer...the top players would choose travel. second tier guys might not really have a choice but to play with their school. now, with that being said, if the best players are actually playing travel instead of hs, does that level the playing field? and how many coaches or scouts will actually come watch a high school game if it is only the second tier players? this can be debated up and down for a long time. question is, when would the IHSA implement this new plan anyway?

i do agree that there might be some jealousy with the hs coaches. perhaps they feel that the kids play with the travel teams because they, the hs coaches are not good enough. or that the players think the coaches are not good enough. in any case, i think we can all agree, even the high school coaches, that travel ball in the summer gives the kids the best possible exposure to top talent around the country. to be the best, you have to not only compete with the best, but beat the best. no doubt. maybe hs coaches are forgetting what is most important here...getting the kids prepared for the next level...if that means allowing them to play travel ball...then so be it.

Hit400, What a message you are sending to the youth of america. If you have the clout, everything will work in your favor. Why do some HS caoches have a problem with travel ball? because of people like you.. I am a HS coach who has no problem with travel ball, but I also don't blame the lockport coach for his stance. I had dinner with 5 scouts last month after a meeting and they told me personally why they like to see a prospect in a HS game. They said it lets them know the coachability of the kid. They want to see him perform in a situation where he has invested most of his time and energy. There is a passion and pride in HS baseball that I think you downplay. Like I said, I think travel ball allows the kids to be seen by some colleges, and have no problem with it. Hard work, passion, talent, dedication, and performance make a kid attractive to the scouts and coaches. quit with all the politics about which offers the kid a better chance and spend your time trying to find new and creative ways to help the kids you are affiliated with.

I believe that if this plan is implemented you are going to have a lot of unhappy ballplayers . The reason I say this is that once some of the hs coaches see that some teams are making their front line players participate in the summer league , you can be sure as heck that they will want to be competitive and make it mandatory for all . This would hurt the development of your younger players and not allow your " elite " players to be seen in tournaments and showcases .

Ballfan,
You mention that you don't blame the Lockport coach for his stance regarding summer ball. I would be intersted to know what his stance is, and would like to get an idea of how that benefits his players. I can readily see how it will help his won/loss record. I don't see how denying players opportunities that may be available helps them.
There should be room for both travel ball and high school sumer baseball to thrive and provide the maximum benefit to all players. Many travel programs enjoy great relationships with the high schools that they deal with and the High School and Travel teams support each other and provide a win-win proposition.
Hit400: When I referred to the second tier player, I was describing a high quality HS baseball player that would be all-conference level for his high school. A top level player would be an absolute stud. Not all high schools even have that stud. Most or all will have the second level guy. That second level guy is the one that will be hurt. These are travel ball players with the potential to be college players.
Top level guys (studs) will always be found and don't need help with exposure. Second level guys can be easily missed if they are not playing in the right places at the right time, in front of the right people.

For the 2003 graduates alone just in players that I know personally, there are 11 young men that are now playing college baseball that had zero opportunity from their high school.

ball..valid points, yes. but tell me this..."if" this whole thing were to go down and "if" most of the best players chose to play travel ball...let's say a scout comes out to watch one of those top level players who chose to play with his high school, and let's say the kid was 5-5, 2 doubles 5 rbi against second tier players from the other school. now, is that an accurate showing of his ability? or would a scout/coach be more impressed if he did that against a Norwood, Top Tier, Lombard, UD, or some team from Florida?? sure, he will see his coachability..but there are a lot of players out there that are coachable, some are just not as talented as the others. of course a coach can see how the player handles himself, his mechanics and so on...but is he talented enough to play against top competition?

again we can argue til we are blue in the face, the fact that the IHSA has proposed this idea will, and already has, cause a lot of controversy. am i for the change? NO. do i see potential problems down the line? YES. do i think the change will ever happen? NO.

Rawlings, I can not comment on why the lockport coach takes the stance that he does. i do know that he works very hard for his players and that he is concerned about development and exposure of his players. he is also concerned about their work ethic, dedication, and the values of his players. I am not saying that a travel coach is not concerned about the same, I am just stating what I know about this guy. He has his program to run, I run my program the way I feel is best. I have made a decision that allows my kids to play travel ball and am supportive of them. I work the conflicts out with the players parents in a way that we both benefit. However, I am only speaking about my program. Not every program does this, but not every travel team does what you say either. I have attended many summer games and spoke with my players that play travel ball. Just like there are opportunities to be seen in the HS season, there are chances to be seen playing travel ball. i don't take the stance that scouts and colleges only care what happens for the HS team, but I am also smart enough to understand that the same is true about summer travel ball. I spend countless hours helping kids in their pursuit of college baseball, but I spend more time in making the kid understand what it takes to get there. The lessons learned along the journey. I give a thumbs up to any venue that helps kids. But I caution any comment or situation that claims, "this is the way to be seen, or recruited". Travel ball has taken off in past years and I feel the players have benefited from the experience, but I know all D1, 2, 3, rosters were filled with quality players 15 years ago, just like they are today. I hope this clears up one misconception, that all HS coaches feel threatened or don't like travel ball. Good luck to all in HS and travel ball.

Some good points made by Rawlings and ballfan. Believe it or not, all sides of this controversy(IHSA, HS coaches, travel ball people) THINK they are doing the right thing for the kids. The underlying philosophy of the IHSA is to protect a healthy balance of athletics and academics for the development of the kids. That is why they put limitations on seasons. They know that fanatics would have their teams practicing and playing all year if they could. At this age that isn't healthy.

Most travel ball people believe playing hundreds of games in all parts of the country will give their kids what they need to "prepare for the next level" or be exposed to scouts. That may be right on some level.

As far as HS coaches are concerned, I can understand how they can be frustrated with the whole travel baseball movement. It seems like HS coaches are the Rodney Dangerfields of baseball. Do some of them earn that reputation, absolutely, but if your players stop listening to you and start choosing travel over your team you'd be frustrated too.

A similar dynamic has developed betwee HS coaches and instructors. In some cases tension arises because the players are taught one method by the instructor and a different one by the coach. Other times there is simply a level of insecurity on the coach's side. Coaches also don't want to hear from parents "his instructor is teaching him this so leave him alone". Is it right or wrong? No easy answer there.

Hit400, I have to disagree with you on one very significant point.

"maybe hs coaches are forgetting what is most important here...getting kids prepared for the next level...if that means allowing them to play travel ball...then so be it" HIT400

High school sports are NOT a developmental or minor league system for colleges or pro ball. They are a developmental system for LIFE! High school sports teach the concepts of hard work, discipline, teamwork, and sportsmanship to name a few. The interscholastic sports programs are as much for the kid sitting on the end of the bench as they are for your "next level prospect".

Do I think travel baseball is a good thing? Yes, within reason. I think with simple communication we would find many of these problems would disappear. Some hs coaches have seen how travel ball can enhance their programs. The coaches who don't see it may have legitimate reasons for their opinions based on individual experiences.

Augie Garrido, the 3r winningest coach in college baseball history(he may be #1 active) with four nat'l championships, once told me that one of the main reasons for his success is that he considers baseball his classroom to teach LIFE. Baseball is NOT bigger than life. If more people would have that perspective we would be much better off.

hit400, this has been argued for years. It is not going to happen. Is the school going to increase the stipend for a coach because he can now play 60 games before the season starts? Is the school going to pay for 15 more bus trips? is the school going to pay for 15 more umpires? The answer is no. This would have to be passed by the principals of the school districts. The ihsa can propose anything they want, but they better have the support of the principals. Trust me, this thing has no movement... On a different note. I guess I take exception to your comment that a kid has to play travell ball to be considered a top prospect. I have a left handed pitcher who has been contacted by various travel teams to play this summer. He has not decided on playiing yet because he has a few things on his schedule this summer. To name a few, the stevenson showcase, the area code tryouts and a couple school camps. Is this to say that he is not going to be a top prospect because he decides to spend his time elsewhere? Does that mean he can not get wht you call the "top players" out on a consistent basis? Don't get the impression that I don't think travel ball is a valuable experience for the boys, because it is. I just wish you wouldn't say that a kid who doesn't play travel ball is less qualified. For the sake of arguement, the lefty has recieved 8 letters from major league scouts regarding his signability. he is a major prospect.

jimd45, are you still working nights? any free time? call me 708 409 8997 thanks. (leddy)

Jim...IHSA and limitations on seasons? In their dreams!

Kids are forced to participate in summer basketball workouts and tournaments and such or they can't try out for the team in the fall.

Football is a bigger joke. Kids have to work out in the weight room all year round under the watchful eye of a "captain" who takes notes on who is there and who isn't. How about those summer 7 on 7 leagues that the kids have to participate in at the expense of being "cold-shouldered" by their classmates.

Kids just can't be kids any more because some guy making ***xxdollars per year insists they participate because it it his job! I know tons of kids that quit football because it became a grind and not much fun...with 3 a days and then 2 a days in the summer time. For what? Most of them never, ever see any scholarship money yet they ruin their bodies which affects them dramatically as they get older!

I say everyone should quit football in high school and have fun with your friends and girlfriends.

beenthere, couldn't agree with you more. They still need to be kids. Balance is just as important for a kid as it is for an adult. I quit coaching football for that reason.

Saw a recent basketball game (s) where a team likely lost several games and lost 3 players (who would either start or would play plenty of minutes) because of the coach and his assistant's attitude about players playing in the summertime; and, because everyone (kids talking) dislikes playing for the sophomore coach.

Kids on the team that couldn't play minutes on the freshman B team while kids who could give the varsity starters a run for their money are in the stands hugging their girlfriends and munching on popcorn. Why? Because of the coach and his and his assistants attitude.

I just don't get it.

Ballfan,

I was just about to ask who you were and where you coached. I am still working nights for the time being, although I am considering a move to days in the next month or so. I'll call you later today or tomorrow.

Many great points...
I agree with your statements Beenthere...there is a lot of politics to playing HS sports. I personally quit basketball and football for those reasons and that was almost 15 years ago.
Ballfan, what are some of things that HS coaches do to help their players through the recruiting process, getting them exposure, preparing them for the next level? You said you spend hours helping them. Maybe share with everyone a positive story you were involved with personally. We need more of that on this board!
I agree with Rawlings and probably know 3/4 of the guys he is talking (probably helped them in one way or another)about when he said he knew 11 players that got nothing from their HS coach on helping them play at the next level. Some of these coaches have no idea what kind of player they have.

There is a big misconception and I still believe that a majority of HS coaches aren't interested in helping these players go anywhere except playing for them. And if the players try and fight back, well I'm sure the parents on this board can come up with many stories...politics run wild.
How many HS coaches are participating in travel teams, exposure camps w/ area indoor facilities or national organizations...during the summer months? How many HS coaches are making calls for the player to college coaches and promoting them...and not their one or two college coaching friends?
Another point and misconception I'm sure Beenthere will agree...he's mentioned it several times in many threads...I'll say it from this perspective though...a scout at a HS game is there for one reason and one reason only...to look for the PRO PROSPECT...not a player looking to go play college baseball. Most scouts will tell you which way they think...they aren't all interested in promoting a player to colleges but only what round a player can play...And think about it how many players were drafted last year out of Chicago land area? How many scouts called your house and said I just talked to so and so college for you?
The IHSA baseball is here to prepare kids for life...that's is great!!!
Most of these baseball players just want to play in college and possibly get a chance in the pros.
I am for the HS coaches helping, but do it or get someone else and don't complain when the players choose travel ball competition over summer HS.

I must agree about the politics of HS sports.

Did our son's HS coach help one time in recruiting.? No.

Get exposure? No.

I commend those hs coaches who do this, but for us we were at the other end of the spectrum.

I also agree we need to hear more of these positive stories where coaches do just that - help prepare our players for life and college ball if they aspire to continue playing.

I can honestly say that if my son had not played high school ball that he could have just played summer/travel instead as far as the recruiting part went...

but would he have wanted to give up his time with his peer group and the experience of playing with his friends, of course not...

That said...we did what we had to do...for our son. If the help isn't in your own back yard, you must move ahead inspite of local opinions.

JMO

MLB22, I will only comment on what I do because you asked me too. I am not here to wag my own tail. I do it for the kids and not for the recognition froma a parent or a web site. It is the fundamental reason I got into teachiing. I send over a 100 letters out a year to all levels of college. I put the same emphasis on a kid who is a d3 prospect as I do a kid who is a d1 prospect. This is a daily routine for me. I place phone calls to coaches for my kids on a daily basis. I also talk to schools about other kids that I have seen and I am sure play the game like it is supposed to be played. If I come across a kid who has a passion and work ethic for the game I will pass their name along just as I would my own kids. last summer I called the university of Minnesota about two kids I coached in the Jack Kaiser all star game. Anetsburger and perniar. They already had perniar (sp) on their watch list from the stevenson or area code showcase. But, I felt these kids were legitmate players who could help a program. My summer is filled with my own team and volunteering at the stevenson showcase and with various all star games. Now my question to you..... One of my players has been contacted by what this site regards as the better travel teams about playing this summer. They told him if he plays for them they will make some calls for him to some programs that they have worked with in the past. I am sure they would do this for him at that it might help. But, I bet they won't amke any calls on his behalf if he decides to play elsewhere this summer. Now you tell me that who doesn't have the kids future in mind. Once again, I only say this because you asked. I support all forms of baseball, but don't feed me any BS about politics. You know there is politics in every aspect of both.

Ballfan...I don't know you but I like you already!

Should have a cup of coffee together and share stories when I'm out in the Western suburbs or when we have our "spring Fling" at Strikes in mid-March...about the 3rd Friday in March!

beenthere, you know me really well. I grew up with jay and paul. I was a senior when paul was a soph. I'm heading up the program where paul played. would love to catch up. (cl)

1. The lefty prospect mentioned by ballfan needs experience. i have had this discussion w/ all parties so just to explain.... A kid who gains experience with travel teams vs in house leagues gets about 2-3 times the experience. Over a # of years that factor keeps increasing and eventually will have a pronounced effect on his evaluation by scouts and coaches. If i am a D1 recruiter i can count on certain coaches (HS + Trav.) to have done their job. i may love everything about this guy, may sign him but if he hasn't pitched against lineups that can hurt you from top to bottom and doesn't have the knowledge(built on EXPERIENCE) to deal with getting hit and losing games then he needs a redshirt. Having said that if he go's pro he'll still have to make that particular adjustment at a lower level of pro ball. The guy in question is going to succeed. unless its about $ he should play at the highest level possible as often as he can. pitching especially is relative to the experience factor.. ......as far as travel ball vs high school we simply need a lot more ballfans and a whole lot fewer travel coaches that don't know how to communicate with the HS coaches. i understand that you can add highland park to that lockport list of misguided fellows who would eliminate travel ball from their program. look for the porters and HP to sink slowly if they adhere to such a closed minded approach.

JimD very good points!

If your talking about Coach Hall not getting his HS school kids noticed then your just not thinking normal. At the Pitch & Hit dinner last week, he did more for his program and kids then any other travel league coach could do.

He was sending out resumes for his former players who were just released out of affiliate ball and were trying to catch on with independent league teams. He was talking up his current group of seniors with pro scouts and some college coaches and was making waves for his current group of underclassmen.

I'm sorry, but if Coach Hall has a stance then I'm willing to listen and so should the IHSA. Please don't get on this half-asse* assumption that HS coaches don't get your kid noticed, simple fact of the matter that your kid sucks! Deal with it!

ball...Gotcha!

Will give you a call at school in the next couple of weeks and we can have a cup of coffee and a piece of pie before your real grueling pre-season schedule starts.

ballfan..
I can't speak for the "other" travel programs out there, but I know for fact that Bill O'Brien (Lombard Lightning) will talk to schools about players that don't play for him all the time. I have been around when he has been ptromoting players that played AGAINST his team as well as those that play for his team. I would imagine that this is the exception and not the norm.
My son is one of the players that he knew who's high school coach did nothing for...he didn't even talk to him about being able to play in college when he talked to all the other seniors last year. He had some interest from programs in the midwest...because of travel ball and going to showcases...not from high school.
His high school coach taold all the seniors he talked to that they should be thinking of D3 because they could have a "nice experience", and that was where their talent would land them. Mine is in AZ playing juco, 1 is at a D1 and will be a starter, 1 was drafted and played rookie ball last year and 3 others are at a D3 school....one having passed on some potential opportunities at a D1...because his high school coach told him he wasn't talented enough.
I think it is wonderful that you do all of that for your players and wish mine would have played for you...but I bet 80-90% of the coaches do nothing at all to help them get to colleg playing baseball.
I have heard college coaches...during conversations...state that they don't put "that much emphasis" on what a high school coach thinks of a player... they rely showcase, tournaments, other college coaches, travel coaches and scouts that they have a good relationship with.

just my 2 cents worth

St.Charles..quote

"Please don't get on this half-asse* assumption that HS coaches don't get your kid noticed, simple fact of the matter that your kid sucks! Deal with it!" St.Charles

That is not always the case. What about the player who has scouts and current pro players talking the player up...telling him he has a "very bright" future ahead of him...offer to make calls for him.....guiding him, yet his H.S.Coach does nothing but berate him?..It happens all the time..

and..Some High School coaches just suck!...they are in their coaching job for the extra$$, control and for self promotion ...and nothing more

Ballfan, I am glad to hear the effort you put into promoting your players...Now, doesn't it make you feel proud to be that helpful and part of a young players experience? I wish there were more like you. However, you are in the minority in your efforts as a HS coach. Please continue your ways!!!! That is a POSITIVE story.

Your last point may very well be a valid one regarding the travel team coaches. I wouldn't know and it's a fair question...(travel team coaches care to clarify?) I will say that I am not a HS coach nor a travel team coach. If I saw a kid and thought he had some talent, I'm going to talk about him. I represent an unbiased opinion for each player that wants to play at the college level much like a pro scout would for players at the pro level.
If your player decides not to play for this travel team and plays somewhere else, who's to say that old coach won't talk about him. That is an assumption on your part of that coach. But having heard the stories directly from parents regarding their HS coach telling them if they play in that tournament or attend that showcase or miss any games with me this summer, then you will be benched for games or be possibly cut...is screaming politics. I have even heard players threatened that if you miss a game then don't bother coming out for the spring season. Why should a player every be subject to that?

St. Charles, you are right about coach Hall and what he does. He's another positive story. He's trying to make a difference.
There is no assumption "that HS coaches don't get your kid noticed" because the simple fact of the matter is(as you put it) a large majority don't DO A THING FOR THEIR PLAYERS AND DON'T CARE. Should I now say they suck, so deal with it!!!

Keep it real.
Ballfan, again way to go...your a positive influence!!!