Is the crack in the metal bat monopoly finally here?

This would be huge. I hope it happens. Many more would follow for several reasons. I hope Gunnar is around to throw out the first pitch next season.

Be careful what you wish for.

Do you want some politician passing a law about baseball every time there is an injury?

"Be careful what you wish for."

That's right...if we're not careful, our kids might find themselves playing authentic American baseball.

Generally speaking, I am not a fan of government regulation...but in this case, I say "whatever it takes."

Hope Gunnar throws out the first pitch too.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Generally speaking, I am not a fan of government regulation...but in this case, I say "whatever it takes."

Hope Gunnar throws out the first pitch too.

My concern would be what does the govenment do after a pitcher gets cracked in the head from a wood bat. What would be the next step in legislation?

Banning metal bats is pretty simple so a boatload of supplemental rules and regulations shouldn't be needed. If it started life as a tree, and has no metal, fibers, or whatever in any form added, it's a legal bat.

I'm certainly not a fan of excessive government regulation, but this is one place where the private sector has stuck its head in the sand. It took the government to get seat belts in all the cars, not a bad thing. It took the government to clean up the water and air. I agree with the sentiment "be careful what you wish for", but this one seems pretty obvious to me.

Normally I would say government has no business with high school baseball but in this case I believe it's a good thing . The time has come to do away with aluminum and especially composite bats . These kids are much bigger and stronger than 20 years ago . The pitchers are throwing harder and the hitters bat speed has increased to amazing . As long as the government doesn't start making decisions about lineups , I see no harm .

I am a big fan of wood bats and would love to see metal bats go away.

But as far as pitcher safety is concerned, why not put a helmet on the pitcher?

MT

One can also ask WHY ???

MTbaseballdad, please understand that one aspect of playing any sport is 'assumed risk'. Whether the sport is baseball, football, hockey, rugby or anything else, an athlete takes the field with the express knowledge that injuries, including potential serious injuries, are a possibility. When you walk onto any sports field to play, you assume the risk and know the worst can happen.

Each year, millions of pitches are thrown across the country, with very few injuries to pitchers relative to the number of pitches thrown. Actuaries would tell you that the occurance of injuries is so low as to be insignificant. Now, if that injury happens to you or your child, there is nothing insignificant about it, and these can be tragic injuries, but they are part of playing the game.

Once you start down this slippery slope, where do you stop? Do we mandate that all position players also wear helmets? What about fans in the stands close to the action who can be hit by foul balls? Should rugby players have to wear protective padding? Should NASCAR have a speed limit? See, it can take on many forms.

If you choose to play, you willingly choose to accept the risk associated with whatever sport you're competing in, and that is as it should be.

quote:

Once you start down this slippery slope, where do you stop? Do we mandate that all position players also wear helmets?

How about throat protectors on catchers masks. Or chest protectors that cover shoulders. Maybe shinguards that extend over cleats?

Oh yeah, they have that stuff already CATCHERDAD. Maybe PITCHERDADS would appreciate some sense of reducing that risk you talk about. I know I would. By the way, most high school pitchers I know are fearless on the mound. Fear lives in the stands with parents who have read about Gunnar.

There's always seems to be someone willing to put forth rhetoric like a NASCAR speed limit. How about the hahn's device. Bad idea? Rugby? OK, don't know anything about it.

I strongly support the switch to wood, and I will continue to support catcher's protective equipment, even if you don't.

This is from a University of Texas Blog:

March 25, 2010
The Danger of Metal Bats in Collegiate Baseball
0

Gunnar Sandberg is one of those kids who grew up with a baseball in hand. He was rarely around the house when I visited because he was playing Summer-Ball, Club-Ball, or playing for his high school in Northern California. Gunnar, now a junior, was pitching against De La Salle High School when he was struck in the head with a ball batted off a metal bat. I’ve heard estimates of the ball’s speed ranging from 120 to 150 MPH. When the injury occurred on 15th, a part of his skull had to be removed to give his brain ample room to swell. He briefly awoke but has returned to an indefinite coma.

Why is this relevant to BON? First of all, Gunnar needs prayers if that’s your thing. It’s relevant because it highlights the risk of metal bats. If high school players are at risk of serious injury from metal bats then Longhorn pitchers are at an equal, if not higher risk, as well. UT, as the flagship university of Texas, sets the agenda when it comes to changes in athletic policies for the state and has a responsibility to promote changes that would improve player safety.

College pitchers have the strength and technique to throw ten to twenty miles per hour faster than your average high school pitcher. This only amplifies the risk of serious injury. Faster pitchers and stronger batters in college increases the risk of injury. Modern metal baseball bats are favored by college players because they flex to “trampoline” the ball off at a high rate of speed. If you’ve seen foul balls ripped into the stands at Disch-Falk you understand the speed at which the ball leaves the bat.

I’ve heard the argument that it is the pitcher’s responsibility to adequately defend himself. Gunnar played baseball his entire life and knew exactly what position to be in to defend a ball hit directly towards him. No one, regardless of athletic ability, can prepare for a hard ball travelling well over 100 MPH from sixty feet away. Taylor Jungman has no greater chance of defending himself than any high school pitcher.

Baseball leagues that continue to allow metal bats argue that studies show there is no correlation between bats and injuries or that research has never been conducted. Companies that produce bats cite studies that reported that ball speed off bats was the same regardless of material. Upon further review, the studies were conducted with a pitching machine and a stationary bat, making their results doubtful. Taking a bat companies studies seriously is akin to believing Marlbough when it tells you cigarettes are not carcinogens.The effectiveness of metal bats results from their elasticity and the increased speed at which they can be swung. Evidence is starting to add up that metal bats result in more injuries. Two pitchers suffered head injuries in College World Series recently. A New Jersey pitcher was left with brain damage after being struck. Horrifically, in 2003 a Montana boy died after being hit in the head. North Dakota and New York City have already seen enough evidence to ban metal bats.

The argument for metal bats is that they are cost effective. With our athletic budget and equipment sponsorships this is hardly a concern. With high end metal bats now costing over $300 this argument is increasingly irrelevant. Wooden bats would give scouts a much better sense of a hitter’s potential in a professional league because metal bats artificially increase hits and home runs. I’d like to see a return to wooden bats in the college game because wooden bats are a quintessential part of the sport. I would give up viewing more home runs in exchange for hearing a bat crack in Disch-Falk instead of loud pings.

“What Starts Here Changes the World” has become UT’s favorite slogan. It’s especially applicable to sports in the state of Texas and the rest of the country. It’s no coincidence that Texas high schools adopted the spread offense shortly after Longhorns did. If Texas were to set a precedent by using wooden bats, high school teams would follow suit. Playing in burnt orange is the dream of thousands of athletes throughout the state and the country. If wood bats became the norm at UT, athletes and their schools would follow to increase their chances of being recruited. Gunnar’s injury proves its, God forbid, only a matter of time until a college player is severely injured unnecessarily due to metal bats. The University has a responsibility to protect its athletes and set an example for the rest of the country.

Read more from the original source:
The Danger of Metal Bats in Collegiate Baseball

The "studies" and "statistics" that have been put forth by hollow bat proponents have served only to obfuscate this issue. These are accompanied by logic-bending claims such as "metal bats are actually safer than wood" and "slower moving baseballs are more lethal than faster moving ones".

Ironically, the most revealing test would also be the simplest to conduct: measure the exit speeds produced by individuals hitting BP using both wood and modern hollow bats. These results would be startling for both average and peak velocity, and the amount of data that could be accumulated would provide a statistical certainty for conclusion. This is why those who typically fund bat testing are loathe to reduce data gathering to something so simple and conclusive.

quote:

Originally posted by all322:

quote:

Once you start down this slippery slope, where do you stop? Do we mandate that all position players also wear helmets?

How about throat protectors on catchers masks. Or chest protectors that cover shoulders. Maybe shinguards that extend over cleats?

Oh yeah, they have that stuff already CATCHERDAD. Maybe PITCHERDADS would appreciate some sense of reducing that risk you talk about. I know I would. By the way, most high school pitchers I know are fearless on the mound. Fear lives in the stands with parents who have read about Gunnar.

There's always seems to be someone willing to put forth rhetoric like a NASCAR speed limit. How about the hahn's device. Bad idea? Rugby? OK, don't know anything about it.

I strongly support the switch to wood, and I will continue to support catcher's protective equipment, even if you don't.

All322, at first I was going to ignore your comments, but decided to reply instead. First of all, before you assume I have no dog in this fight, realize that my own son (who is beyond his baseball playing days now) was a catcher and also a pitcher in high school. My nephew is a collegiate catcher. I've coached well over 100 young men who pitched in high school, and I guess close to a couple dozen of them are pitching in college right now. My own son has been on both sides of the batted ball deal, as he's been struck with batted balls when pitching, and he's hit a few pitchers pretty hard over the years with balls he's lined back through the box. I would feel awful if any one of them were seriously injured by a batted ball, and I have had to deal with that as one of my former pitchers was struck in the face by a ball off the bat of a UOP hitter a couple years ago. That ball was radar gunned at 124mph coming off the bat, and the ball struck him just under the left cheekbone. Very fortunately, he wasn't seriously injured, and later told me it was just one of the risks he takes when he steps up on the mound. He was back on the mound 5 days later, pitching without any sort of protective gear. Another of my former pitchers barely averted disaster by catching a ball right in front of his face, hit by a Sac State batter, and that ball was gunned at more than 130 mph. It knocked him over backward, but he got up and was ok. So, I've been there and have a greater stake in this discussion than some of our posters.

My summer teams have a total of about 40 pitchers on them this year, and I'd feel horrible if one is struck and seriously injured by a batted ball, but I still don't believe that means we should require helmets for pitchers. The last thing I would want is to see one of my pitchers (or any other pitcher, for that matter)be struck and seriously injured, but again I think that pitchers understand they play a dangerous position and can be hit after delivering any pitch they throw. If a pitcher wanted to voluntarily wear a helmet, I would never discourage him from doing it, but I'd never want to see it required. Baseball has been played for many decades by millions of people and the incidence of serious injury to pitchers from batted balls is very low from a statistical standpoint. Only pitchers can decide if they're willing to assume the risk when they trot out to the mound, and I've never met a single one who wants some protective nanny to tell him what he needs to wear out there. In fact, I know more than a few who don't wear cups when pitching. I think they're taking a risk, but it's their choice.

My opionion is that going to wood will minimize this risk significantly, even though serious injuries can happen even with wood (remember what happened to Erik Davis on this one).

Let me leave you with a question. I'm in my fifties, and I umpire high school baseball in the spring. In the B and C slots, I'm only about 15-20' feet farther from home plate than the pitcher. My reflexes are much slower and I don't have a glove to protect myself with. Should I have to wear a helmet? I know a lot of umpires who can't defend themselves very well from one of these hard hit balls right at them, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone suggest we wear helmets. Nor do I know any umpires who'd want to, either!

From a historical standpoint it sounds like the beginning of the 1920's temperance movement that eventually led to prohibition.

God forbid a line drive from a wood bat hits a player in this area because the knee jerk reaction would have to have pitchers in helmets. What would be the response from the wood advocates here if that were to happen?

More frustration in the governmental systems that cannot implement legislation without mind boggling study but can alter a system that has legislated itself for years.

Meanwhile, why don't we as parents, coaches, school officials, league officials etc. sit down, discuss and if agreed simply go back to wood. It doesn't have to be a big nation wide efort but, as stated earlier, a grass roots community effort. For those who love the game and want to see it played in the spirit originally intended this is an opportunity to do the right thing.

The Big Bat Companies don't love us, the game or our kids. Just our money.

I've read through the other posts and general don't comment, but...

I'm sorry metal bats after 14 years old need to go.

Kids are bigger and stronger each year and by the time they are in high school they don't need the handicap of a metal bat. Each year these bats get more and more advanced. Nearly the entire barrel of these bats is the "sweet spot" now.

My son's primary thing to do is hit, I wish his league would ban metal bats. He works out all winter with wood, why not stay with it? To learn to hit a ball in the sweet spot of a wooden bat is one of the key skills of the game. We all know that special sound that a well hit ball off of the sweet spot of a wooden makes.

Time to turn off metal bats in high school and beyond.

What is tough is that there are arguements on both sides of the issue.

I am always fearful of increased goverment regulation of individual activities and if this was a proposed federal ban on all metal and composite bats in high school play I probably would be among the first to cry foul.

But I honestly believe that the state does have the right to regulate what goes on with its public institutions, to include high school sports.

It is hard for some of us to remember but there was a time when things like batting helmets and even a simple cup were not mandated. If it is found that metal and composite bats are a source of danger for high school athletes then they should be regulated.

As for the individual choice argument. Well, we aren't dealing with adults making adult decisions. Collegiate players make the decision to join a college so as adults they have that right. In High School that is different, these are minors. Yes I have the right to decide something for my kid but if the state thinks that an aspect of it is dangerous then they have the right to say 'not on school property'.

Ultimately this is not a blanket ban on composite bats for anyone under 18, this is a ban on them in high school sports. There doesn't seem to be a ban in private leagues or in anything outside of high school.

We may not like it or agree with it but these games are played generally at public schools and as such are under control of municipal and county regulation. That means the state can intervene if it feels that something is potentially dangerous.

quote:

Generally speaking, I am not a fan of government regulation...but in this case, I say "whatever it takes."

Once you set the precedent, it's set. What will you do when they take away something you aren't so interested in "whatever it takes"?

You can't undo government once they get entangled. If you truly want metal bats out of the game, you should work your tail off to get it done within the baseball community and do everything in your power to keep government out of it.

As RJM suggested, I think it would be far more beneficial to approach the issue from an integrity standpoint. Absolutely no way anyone can argue that metal hasn't impugned the integrity of the game, at least as it pertains to HS JV and above.

Keep metal for the younger kids to get them going but from JV baseball and above, swing wood. I think it is a compromise that most would be happy to live with but it has to be done from within, not mandated by big brother.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
The Big Bat Companies don't love us, the game or our kids. Just our money.

Don't buy them. The only way you can make change is not buying into what they want you to buy to help your hitter hit harder and farther.

As a pitcher's parent, how many people (not here) actually care about the dangers that these bats present. I'll bet not too many. You start at the grass roots level, coaches don't allow certain bats for your players, talk to parents, tournie directors,let them know the dangers, don't wait for another player to get seriously hurt before the public becomes aware. If you lose a player because of that, so what.

That's how you make change occur, be proactive, let your opinions be known not just here but wherever you go.

JMO

1baseballdad - This isn't a 2nd amendment issue as some of you seem to (almost) argue. Or is it? I have my philosophy/principles about government regulation...probably about the same as yours. But I don't apply them, 100% to 100% of all situations.

A VP of one of the major metal bat companies once told me that they work awfully hard to keep the metal bats in the college and HS game. How do (did) they argue it to the NCAA and other governing bodies? More home runs...and they used Mark McGwire as an example of the explosion of the popularity of the game due to the home runs...thus, they argued more people would love the game at lower levels if there were more home runs. Kind of an interesting argument don't you think? Used a man "juiced up" to support their manufacturing of a "juiced up" product to accomplish the same results.

They know it. Why is it so hard for so many of us to see what they know about their own product?

Metal bat makers make lots of money off these bats (thats why they fight so hard to keep 'em)...college coaches, in power, get paid lots of money to use certain brands of metal bats...daddys like sons to hit long (and many) home runs. There is little incentive other than for those who have witnessed the damage and/or understand the physics to change it. Thus, if a lawmaker wants to write a new rule (law) that bans them, he/she has my full support.

IMO - The primary reason for the existence of metal bats in baseball is money.

Money for the manufacturers - money for the coaches and money for the NCAA.

None of the recipients of these funds - whether they receive these funds directly or indirectly - care about the safety of your sons and daughters.

They care about the money. They want the money. And they will do whatever they have to do to get the money.

It isn't as complicated as many of us make it out to be.

All IMO

its - I think you are spot on.

It may be money but business is driven by the concept of Supply and Demand. Coaches and the NCAA may reap some benefits but the majority of the bats purchased are done by Mom-n-Dads who want to see jr succeed and hit the ball out of the infield, see a smile on his face, and a kudo from other parents. It's much easier to attain those results with a bat purchase than forking out $ for lessons and insisting/pushing Jr to work his a$$ off to be the best he can be. Bringing offspring into the equation can make it complicated and those on this site may not have ever had to deal with those scenarios. IMO

It's easy to to point at the big guy but taboo to blame your neighbor especially when your own son is playing above him to begin with.

RZ - IMO - you are certainly right about that.

And you can bet that every manufacturer, every coach and every member of the NCAA that has anything to do with the issue knows that.

That metal rocket launcher has alot of appeal.

Just read this story on the Sacramento Bee it stated that since 2001 there has been 17 deaths
involving batted balls 8 came from wood bats , those numbers are very close. I do not think
that metal bats should be banned but I do think changes should be made. With the number of
injuries between metal and wood being so close could one make the argument that wood is twice as dangerous because of breakage. Just a thought.

We are playing in 11 tournaments this summer and we will be using wood in all events--other teams do the same---that is a lot of wood bat action

Is there a rule in LL that says the kids cannot use wood?
With all the new wood bat companies around now I bet it would not be too hard to find companies that would get involved at the LL level with some sort of sponsorship situation even if it is a partial situation.
Start it at the LL level and it will grow---since most of the travel teams use wood the need is in the intermediate groups and LL to make the situation better

Forget the politics and studies--JUST DO IT in your organization

Dover,

I strongly disagree regarding the wood is twice as dangerous statement. First, how many metal bats are in play versus wood? Secondly, confounding the usage stats, those using wood are primarily bigger, stronger players (i.e., special leagues, MiLB, MLB use wood, while LL, HS, and college use metal/composite), thus the stronger (and likely more accomplished) hitters using wood are more likely to cause injury because they hit the ball harder more often.

While there is a risk involved with wood from breakage, I think the risk associated with a direct hit to the head or chest by a ball is more dangerous and more likely to cause an injury by an order of magnitude. On an equal use basis, if ball exit speed is higher off metal, then the risk is greater than with wood.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Forget the politics and studies--JUST DO IT in your organization

What if the kids and parents do not want it? Do it anyway?

If I ran the LL I just make the rule WOOD BATS ONLY

Case closed---just stop all the ***** footing around the topic--DO IT--

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
If I ran the LL I just make the rule WOOD BATS ONLY

Case closed---just stop all the ***** footing around the topic--DO IT--

That's how break-off Leagues start and IMHO the wood bat LL may be standing on the side when the metal kids are hitting the ball to the outfield, scoring runs, and watching even the little shrimp have the opportunity to put the ball in play. LL is about everyone being involved and I don't know if wood would allow that up and down the lineups

In our league we use wood 100% from 15 and up. We were in fla for spring training last year and played a couple games vs metal, might have been to our advantage as the line drives fell in a few times.

It seems like there is a consensus that wood is the way to go for a number of reasons- safety, traditon and preparation/experience.

Like some have suggested - just simply doing it as an individual or colective group is what will change the staus quo. Sometimes a sacrifice in the W/L column is the price. History is full of examples of people changing the landscape by challenging conventional wisdom and tradition. This is one area everyone can make a difference.

Interesting if all involved on this website initiated an honest discussion with all players, coaches and parents to vette the issues. I'd be curious as to the results.

quote:

Originally posted by liner:
Interesting if all involved on this website initiated an honest discussion with all players, coaches and parents to vette the issues. I'd be curious as to the results.

This site is not a fair cross section of the baseball population. It is basically full of "elites" and we know where that vote will go. Baseball is Americas pastime and regardless of what us oldtimers think, that pastime may have evolved into a recreational pastime at the young ages that has found out that metal gave all kids the chance to succeed.

RZ

The game is not about hitting the ball further than the other guy it is about hitting the ball better than the other guys--if you want your LL to placate the yuppie parents than so be it--the game of baseball is about longevity so why not begin teaching kids the proper methods from the beginning---I played LL back in the 50's with wood and had 12 HR's in 12 games and I was nothing special as it turned out down the road--but I learned how to hit with wood---today kids get to the pros and have no idea what to do with wood in their hands


Back to basics so the kids can learn the game correctly--SCREW THE POLITICS OF IT ALL

RZ

I saw your post after I made mine and I respectfully disagree with you about this site being full of "elite" players--many of the lurkers are parents of the normal talent players who simply love the game

Every day I speak with readers from here who have a kid who "just" wants to play the game

More and more showcare programs are using wood almost exclusively in the summer and fall. And the main reason for it around here at least is preparation for the WWBA events that PG puts on. East Cobb and Jupiter as well as Fort Meyers. Perfect game tourneys are all wood bat. The WWBA events are the ones that everyone around here is striving to win. Basically every tourney that is played in leading up to these events is just practice for these events which are all wood bat.

So I think you have to give PG a lot of credit for driving this move to wood for many teams that play showcase baseball in the summer and fall. Last summer we did not swing metal in one ab. When I start my own program this coming fall it will be wood bat exclusively. Practice , games , it will be all wood. We will not play in any metal bat tourneys. If I can not find enough wood bat tourneys to play in during the fall around here I will simply put my own on.

When people stop b*itching and moaning about it and actually start doing something about it things will change. If PG WWBA events were all metal bat more kids would be playing metal bat in the summer and fall. But because PG WWBA events are all wood all the time it has caused others to go to wood. No one is making anyone play with metal. In hs you swing metal because your competition is swinging metal. I understand that.

So for me instead of complaining I will just do what I can do. If I am coaching it will be wood. If its not wood I won't be a part of it. Thats all I can do. But it is what I will do.

I have never seen a kid who could hit with wood that could not hit with metal. Have any of you? Learning to actually hit , with wood only makes the player an even better metal bat hitter. I have seen plenty of successful hitters with metal who couldnt hit a lick with wood.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RZ

I saw your post after I made mine and I respectfully disagree with you about this site being full of "elite" players--many of the lurkers are parents of the normal talent players who simply love the game

Every day I speak with readers from here who have a kid who "just" wants to play the game

While I would agree with the fact that there are many "normal talent" websters, there is a difference between lurking and participating. The participating opinions on this site are coming from the more "elite" because of their interest in the next level, thus their favoritism toward wood.

The last thing I want is to get in a pessing match with those who I agree with but I think sometimes our POV is not shared by the 80% of players/parents from LL on who will never sniff the next level, let alone select team status.

Maybe I'm different than most but I go to LL games to watch the smiles on kids faces for doing well even if they don't have the tools or the deep passion. The teamwork learned, the friendships made, the sharing of an activity with a parent, and the exercise they got will top any athletic advancements made. It's all about participation numbers and those who want to press on to other levels will have other avenues available. Those that don't will grow up with fun memories, maybe a recollection of a successful moment, a passion for baseball from a vantage point in the stands, and as future parents. JMO, but it is a closet passion of mine .

If the LL'ers learn with wood from the git go they will have smiles on their faces as well

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
If the LL'ers learn with wood from the git go they will have smiles on their faces as well

And if they don't want to change to what TR likes they can go play sokker . I don't think that having the hardest part of the game made harder at that level is good for the numbers. IMO many kids are softer today to begin with and with more activities outside and on the couch to take on, there is no reason to have another reason for them to turn away. Expansion of a sport is all about participating numbers early on, tradition can be instilled with those who want to take the steps down the road.