Other 2020s getting screwed?

Wait, so the choices are:

- keep the scholarship, coach says, "you're not practicing with my team because I don't want you" - then you're a redshirt?

- keep the scholarship, coach says, "o.k. you can be on the team because I have an unlimited roster," you don't play in the spring (because too many guys) - then you're a redshirt?

- give up the scholarship, stay at the school, coach says "o.k. you can practice with the team because I have an unlimited roster" - then you're not a redshirt?  or you are if you are on the spring roster but don't play in any games?

- give up the scholarship, stay at the school, coach says "you can't practice with the team" - then you're not a redshirt, you're just a student who works out on his own, which means you've burned one of your 5 years to play 4?

Of course, all of this assumes that there is a baseball season in spring 2021.

BTW, these are the threads where there was a discussion:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...el-of-talent-in-d2-3

https://community.hsbaseballwe...opic/transfer-portal

Just read a news article about a P5 2020 player who had his scholarship pulled, has landed at another P5.  I'm guessing that the other recruits at his position are less excited, I wonder if some of them had their scholarships pulled to account for him?

@PABaseball posted:

Redshirts practice with the team. They do everything but dress for home games and travel to away games

You are right. Player has to be on the roster.  Many coaches over recruit and not enough room on the 35 many roster. So they tell the guys they can work out and try again next year.

This year there is no limit, so technically the coach can have as many red shirts as he has uniforms for and the AD has approved.

@JCG posted:

This brings up a point I have wondered about a bit.

My son plays at a HA D3 here on the left coast.  I know that a LOT of his teammates are at least considering taking the fall off, especially if classes are not conducted in person.  I believe at least a couple will actually do it.  I have also heard that this discussion is happening at similar schools in the east, and I have heard that it's not just among athletes.

So what happens if such a school loses part of its student body for an indefinite period?  Do they take all students back on the student's schedule? Do they reopen first year and transfer applications?  Do they start reaching out to rejected applicants?  I have not heard anything about this from the admin side, but I'm thinking that a student like your son should consider reaching out to coaches at HA schools of interest to see if they might have some unexpected slots opening up.

It’s not an indefinite period. Schools have policy on how long a student can leave and automatically return. When I attended college (years ago) it was one year. There were a handful of exceptions. 

What would happen under these circumstances is the colleges may suffer financially for a year unless they can replace all those who take a year off. Then they will be overcrowded the following year or it will be very hard for graduating high school seniors to get accepted. 

@anotherparent posted:

Just read a news article about a P5 2020 player who had his scholarship pulled, has landed at another P5.  I'm guessing that the other recruits at his position are less excited, I wonder if some of them had their scholarships pulled to account for him?

Could you link to the article here?

@PABaseball posted:

Redshirts practice with the team. They do everything but dress for home games and travel to away games

Our RS even dressed for home games. Did not travel tho. 

https://insideusc.blog/2020/06...osers-of-the-week-4/

Thank the coach for the opportunity. 

IMHO, The family needs to pivot quickly.

Check out the local Jucos.

Find out who might show love. 

Get the engagement ring.

@Jam24 posted:

My son, who is 5 weeks from heading to school, is being asked to "un-sign" his NLI so his money can go to the seniors and undrafted juniors who are staying at the D1 school he is supposedly attending. I hear this is happening everywhere, but I am surprised not to find talk about here. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thread. Seven freshman from his school alone were told they were no longer wanted, and 5 of them won't be going to school at all because they can't afford it. This is a travesty and a nightmare for those families. We can afford to get our son through freshman year, but he's not really interested in going to the school without baseball, and now it's too late to find something else. Anyone else in this position? Any advice? This is so difficult for 2020s who have already lost so much, and now to get the rug pulled out from under them again....

It's a bit late in the game. Take the money. Show up in the fall. The coach is just trying to make the best (best for him) of the current situation. He's thinking, it can't hurt to try to get this NLI-signing 2020 to volunteer to give up his scholarship after not talking to other schools and only applying to my school because I told him he was my guy.

Do you really think he thinks any less of your son since last November when he sent him the NLI? If he did think less he WOULD NOT HAVE SENT HIM A NLI! What's a coach to do? Perhaps he's just trying to do right by the kids that already play for him (as in not cutting their scholarships)? I would not feel bad for the coach, let him figure out how to divvy up what's left of his scholarship $'s after he has to honor his NLI's. Not your problem. The NCAA gave him a way to do it (11/./32, no 25% minimum, etc.). He's just waiting to see if your son will take the bait! If he doesn't who knows, he still has a good chance to make the team. Especially if some returning players decide not to return once they hear they won't be receiving the same $ amount as the previous year. How does your son feel about his abilities? Is he confident? I can tell you my son would be! Any player that bails is not showing much fight so why would a coach want a player like that? I'd take the confident fighter to play on MY team.

Of course he may not appreciate your son and his baseball days at that particular school may be short-lived.

But you wanna know what? His baseball days at that school or any other school may be short-lived anyway as MANY kids find out EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Regardless of whether the coach asked them to voluntarily give up a scholarship!

At least get a year of school in. There's no guarantee your son will make a JUCO roster or any other roster. Unless you have a GREAT offer RIGHT now I'd stay the course. He wants your son to give it up right now because he has to tell returning players what their next year of scholarship dollars will be before July 1st per NCAA.

@anotherparent posted:

Wait, so the choices are.. 

Redshirt is the term applied to the season in which you do not compete in live games. Whether you are receiving money, not receiving money, or are not a part of the team and are a regular student. You can suit up for every game, warm in in the bullpen, get to the on deck circle, etc - as long as you never officially enter a game you can use your redshirt for one season. All your scenarios above would qualify a redshirt year. 

The new rule for the D1 2021 season only is schools can have unlimited rosters with 32 guys (up from 27) getting 11.7 and no 25% minimum. But if you're getting money you count against the 11.7 and the 32 whether you are the everyday starter, a redshirt, or cut player remaining at the school in the gen student population. You can go to a P5 - get cut your first day there and remain at the school on scholarship, for 5 years and count against both the 11.7 and normal 27. 

@anotherparent posted:

Just read a news article about a P5 2020 player who had his scholarship pulled, has landed at another P5.  I'm guessing that the other recruits at his position are less excited, I wonder if some of them had their scholarships pulled to account for him?

P5 recruits sign a four year athletic aid agreement.  Most sign in November of senior year of high school.  It is a contract.  The school cannot "pull it". They can pressure the recruit to give it up, but they cannot change it or delete it without the agreement of the recruit.

@Go44dad posted:

P5 recruits sign a four year athletic aid agreement.  Most sign in November of senior year of high school.  It is a contract.  The school cannot "pull it". They can pressure the recruit to give it up, but they cannot change it or delete it without the agreement of the recruit.

Yep, good point; "pulled" in the same sense as the OP's son; at least, that's what it looks like, from the article.

Schools can't go over the 11.7 (seniors excepted). Most P5's don't rely on seniors anyway, non P5 schools do.  But schools that rely on seniors are usually dollar/budget constrained.

2021's will get it the hardest. Schools are encouraging middle of the road recruits to try JUCO, or the recruits are just seeing the numbers. (There really isn't too much savings to be had in the middle ranked recruits).  Rest of the money is coming from coaches pressuring players to back load their deals (move 2021 year money to 21, 22).  This means much less scholarship money for 2021's, who have not signed an athletic aid agreement as of yet. You will see smaller recruiting classes next couple of years. Lots of verbals will be pulled.

What are these schools to do?  When they offered and signed the 2020 class to athletic aid agreements, the MLB draft was 40 rounds and players eligibility was expiring. The rules changed a bunch after they signed the kids.

BTW, nice to see a baseball thread on baseballweb.

Do what ABSORBER says.  If not, tell the coach to find your son a spot on another team. If not, I’ll see you in September.

@PABaseball posted:

Redshirt is the term applied to the season in which you do not compete in live games. Whether you are receiving money, not receiving money, or are not a part of the team and are a regular student.

Hey, Remember when you quoted me a few months ago, when I wrote:

"Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

Then you tried to correct me with this line:

"That just isn't true. Redshirts count towards the 35 man roster."

See it my way now.

OP, This situation is very unfortunate.  Many of us warned about this when the NCAA made a ridiculous decision to appease a student-athlete committee that was what I call WM2, well meaning but wooly-minded.

Usually the advice to go JuCo is pretty solid for those really interested in playing baseball, except that all of college baseball is going to be overflowing with talent next year. Given the unusual college baseball times we are living in, I would advise one of two routes.

First, if scholarship money is necessary, stay and take his chances on the current team.  Recognize that the coach doesn't want your son's money because he doubts him, he wants it for the proven, older, talented grad students, JuCo transfers, and those in the portal that the NCAA gave an additional year of eligibility.  The HC wants your son's scholarship money to lure that talent.  The NCAA just opened up the flood gates with talent and the coach is trying to capitalize on it.

Second, if scholarship money isn't as important and this was a school your son was only attending for baseball, and would prefer somewhere else (as you alluded to in one of your posts),  look at this as a glass half full situation.  Contact the coaching staff at schools he really wants to attend for academics,  go visit, start the recruitment all-over again.  With rosters being unlimited this year, it gives him a chance to prove himself on the field at a place that he really wants to be if baseball doesn't work out.

@Pedaldad posted:

OP, This situation is very unfortunate.  Many of us warned about this when the NCAA made a ridiculous decision to appease a student-athlete committee that was what I call WM2, well meaning but wooly-minded.

Usually the advice to go JuCo is pretty solid for those really interested in playing baseball, except that all of college baseball is going to be overflowing with talent next year. Given the unusual college baseball times we are living in, I would advise one of two routes.

First, if scholarship money is necessary, stay and take his chances on the current team.  Recognize that the coach doesn't want your son's money because he doubts him, he wants it for the proven, older, talented grad students, JuCo transfers, and those in the portal that the NCAA gave an additional year of eligibility.  The HC wants your son's scholarship money to lure that talent.  The NCAA just opened up the flood gates with talent and the coach is trying to capitalize on it.

Second, if scholarship money isn't as important and this was a school your son was only attending for baseball, and would prefer somewhere else (as you alluded to in one of your posts),  look at this as a glass half full situation.  Contact the coaching staff at schools he really wants to attend for academics,  go visit, start the recruitment all-over again.  With rosters being unlimited this year, it gives him a chance to prove himself on the field at a place that he really wants to be if baseball doesn't work out.

Great advice.

I wonder how many 2020 HS Grad are feeling this same pressure.

The coaches should honor the NLI contracts plain and simple, the financial components shouldn't be in their hands. This should be a Athletic Director or school president decision.

IMHO, this is similar to how the government handled the Coronavirus, depending on where you live leadership abdicated their responsibilities and push controls down,

The School President should absorb the cost in his budget, if not then the Athletic Director (governor) should ask his donors.

That situation really sucks. I think the returning seniors was a bad decision because  it not only affects one year but 3-4 down the road. Sure it would have sucked for the seniors but at least they got like one third of the season already.

And of course the 5 round draft makes that worse as many good juniors will return to school and on the other end also many undrafted HS kids who would have been drafted will go to school.

That situation really is a mess and the returning seniors only make it worse even though I blame no senior to grab that opportunity (hitting the labor market right now isn't great either so why not continue school anyway).

@Jam24 posted:

@RoadRunner - that is a part of the frustration. The student athlete literally has no voice. The school, the NCAA, the whole system has the power, but if no one calls out these institutions they can keep harming kids and getting away with it. they pretend to be concerned about kids' well being and they certainly demand that kids act with character and integrity, but they - on the other hand - are allowed to be immoral and unethical without consequence.

At times yes. However, there are many schools that run their athletic programs with integrity.  I know it can be hard to know the difference. So far, we have been blessed. 

Jam24. sorry to hear about your son's situation.  I am curious as well as to how prevalent his circumstances are.  Is anyone else facing similar issues?  I have heard only a few anecdotal stories.  My son is a 2020 also and his team will have 41 to 42 heading into the fall so its going to be tough for him as well. 

I think it will be more common in December.  I think a lot of coaches are going to let the kids come and then decide after Fall who stays and who gets the talk about no playing time and how it's better to go somewhere else.  

@baseballhs posted:

I think it will be more common in December.  I think a lot of coaches are going to let the kids come and then decide after Fall who stays and who gets the talk about no playing time and how it's better to go somewhere else.  

Yes - but at least those kids are getting school paid for in the meantime, as promised. And to @GloFisher and @baseballhs  - with these giant rosters, I don't understand how everyone is keeping their money. It must be widespread but kids and families are too scared to talk about it because they don't want to be black balled by the school they are coming from or frowned upon by potential new school for being trouble makers. 

True, but this also helps the school with enrollment because baseball scholarships for the most part don't cover it.  The school still makes money.

I will also say that although my son has had multiple calls telling him how much they want him there, I feel zero assurances that if he has a bad fall that there is any loyalty or even a leash to come out of it.  I don't think anyone has that.

@baseballhs posted:

I think it will be more common in December.  I think a lot of coaches are going to let the kids come and then decide after Fall who stays and who gets the talk about no playing time and how it's better to go somewhere else.  

But many of them will not have a new place to go to.....

There aren't many options for now either.  2020s did get screwed and 2021s will too.

@Pedaldad posted:

Hey, Remember when you quoted me a few months ago, when I wrote:

"Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

Then you tried to correct me with this line:

"That just isn't true. Redshirts count towards the 35 man roster."

See it my way now.

Good to know you've been waiting for this moment. The line you used is still wrong. Redshirts can make the team, they are allowed to practice with the team, and the last is an opinion. 

Redshirt = not seeing the varsity field at any point in the season. If you are receiving money and redshirt, you're still on the 35 man so yes redshirts can count against the roster. 

Redshirts who are not receiving money and don't practice with the team are regular students. In every situation mentioned in my post, you can be a redshirt. You can make the 35 man as a walk-on and still redshirt. Redshirt on the 35 man roster is different from a redshirt not on the roster who can't use facilities. They are not part of the baseball program. What coaches do with non scholarship players not on the 35 man is at their discretion. 

So if Joey Walk-on gets cut in the fall and keeps attending his school as a regular student, he can use his redshirt season if he were to become an athlete at another school. If he transfers he will be a RSFr at School 2. He was not considered an athlete at School 1 just a regular student who burned one of his 5 years of eligibility. 

@Pedaldad posted:

Hey, Remember when you quoted me a few months ago, when I wrote:

"Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

Then you tried to correct me with this line:

"That just isn't true. Redshirts count towards the 35 man roster."

See it my way now.

You are both correct. Now and a few months ago. 

O.k., so just to try to summarize:

- in general, if you are enrolled at a school and don't play in any games, the next year you will be a redshirt.

- before 2020, if you had a scholarship but didn't get into any games, you would be listed on the 35-man roster and could practice with the team.  If you didn't have a scholarship and weren't on the roster, you couldn't practice with the team.  In both cases, the next year you would be a "redshirt xxx".

- in 2021, with no roster limits, whether or not you have a scholarship you could be listed on the roster and not get into a game.  Then the next year you would be a "redshirt xxx."

So, how does the 2020 season work?  What if in 2020 (this year) you had a scholarship but didn't get into any games?  Is it different than if you didn't have a scholarship and weren't on the roster?  In that second case, do you still get 5 more years to play 4?

@anotherparent posted:

O.k., so just to try to summarize:

- in general, if you are enrolled at a school and don't play in any games, the next year you will be a redshirt.

- before 2020, if you had a scholarship but didn't get into any games, you would be listed on the 35-man roster and could practice with the team.  If you didn't have a scholarship and weren't on the roster, you couldn't practice with the team.  In both cases, the next year you would be a "redshirt xxx".

- in 2021, with no roster limits, whether or not you have a scholarship you could be listed on the roster and not get into a game.  Then the next year you would be a "redshirt xxx."

So, how does the 2020 season work?  What if in 2020 (this year) you had a scholarship but didn't get into any games?  Is it different than if you didn't have a scholarship and weren't on the roster?  In that second case, do you still get 5 more years to play 4?

Yes you are correct. With this year everybody gets a clean slate. Anybody who participated in college baseball this season has 6 seasons to play 5, counting the 15 or so games played this year. Redshirt is designated at the end of the season for those who did not receive playing time. So if you were on a roster this spring and didn't get game action you will still be able to use your redshirt year in the future as long as you did not previously burn it. 

Example - Joe Smith is a freshman in the 2020 season. He doesn't see any game action and the season gets cut short. He now has an additional 5 years to play 4. For now we'll just call him a corona freshman. If he redshirts in 2021 he will enter the 2022 season as a redshirt freshman even though he is a junior academically. Wild times. 

@PABaseball posted:

Yes you are correct. With this year everybody gets a clean slate. Anybody who participated in college baseball this season has 6 seasons to play 5, counting the 15 or so games played this year. Redshirt is designated at the end of the season for those who did not receive playing time. So if you were on a roster this spring and didn't get game action you will still be able to use your redshirt year in the future as long as you did not previously burn it. 

Example - Joe Smith is a freshman in the 2020 season. He doesn't see any game action and the season gets cut short. He now has an additional 5 years to play 4. For now we'll just call him a corona freshman. If he redshirts in 2021 he will enter the 2022 season as a redshirt freshman even though he is a junior academically. Wild times. 

I hope you know that I just enjoyed messing around when you put up your current definition of a redshirt. 

But I'll give you the wildest example that I know.  One of my son's teammates was redshirted his freshman year, then blew out his UCL, had surgery, and got a medical redshirt his sophomore year.  He made three appearances as a junior before the season was canceled and eligibility reinstated.  He will be back as a senior next year in his first year of eligibility.  That's right, a college senior with 4 years of remaining eligibility.  Now that's wild.

@Pedaldad posted:

I hope you know that I just enjoyed messing around when you put up your current definition of a redshirt. 

But I'll give you the wildest example that I know.  One of my son's teammates was redshirted his freshman year, then blew out his UCL, had surgery, and got a medical redshirt his sophomore year.  He made three appearances as a junior before the season was canceled and eligibility reinstated.  He will be back as a senior next year in his first year of eligibility.  That's right, a college senior with 4 years of remaining eligibility.  Now that's wild.

You know there is no such thing as a medical redshirt, right. 

Just messing with ya.....

Slight caveat to PABaseball's explanation above:

Unless there's been another update that I missed, the "6 years to play 5" only applies to D1 athletes. D2 did NOT extend the 5 year clock for underclassmen (only for seniors.) They did give everyone another season of eligibility. In effect, D2 forced everyone to take their "redshirt" year this season (2020).

So, for example, a 2019 HS grad/ 2020 D2 freshman now has 4 remaining years to play 4 more seasons.

@Pedaldad posted:

I hope you know that I just enjoyed messing around when you put up your current definition of a redshirt. 

But I'll give you the wildest example that I know.  One of my son's teammates was redshirted his freshman year, then blew out his UCL, had surgery, and got a medical redshirt his sophomore year.  He made three appearances as a junior before the season was canceled and eligibility reinstated.  He will be back as a senior next year in his first year of eligibility.  That's right, a college senior with 4 years of remaining eligibility.  Now that's wild.

I understood, it's just a baseball site, plus it's pretty hard to offend me to begin with. 

We might see the first doctor/college baseball player by the time he's exhausted his eligibility. Kid is going to be able to diagnose his own injuries soon. Going to graduate law school and become his own agent in the 2024 draft. 

@TPM posted:

You know there is no such thing as a medical redshirt, right. 

Just messing with ya.....

Hardship Waiver, it is.

@Pedaldad posted:

I hope you know that I just enjoyed messing around when you put up your current definition of a redshirt. 

But I'll give you the wildest example that I know.  One of my son's teammates was redshirted his freshman year, then blew out his UCL, had surgery, and got a medical redshirt his sophomore year.  He made three appearances as a junior before the season was canceled and eligibility reinstated.  He will be back as a senior next year in his first year of eligibility.  That's right, a college senior with 4 years of remaining eligibility.  Now that's wild.

Related odd sidenote - 

Son graduated HS in 2012, had a "lengthy" college playing career, taking 5 yrs to play 4 and has now been coaching college ball, going on his fourth year.  He has a friend from our area that he played youth travel ball with who is also a 2012.  That friend bounced around from JC to D2 to NAIA, dealing with multiple injuries along the way.  He somehow ended up entering his senior year at an NAIA school this past Spring, which of course was cut short due to Covid and, yes, he is coming back to play out his senior year in 2021.  It isn't too much of a stretch that that season gets cancelled, so he could potentially be back to play that senior year in 2022!  I would think a ten year college playing career would have to be a record!?!?!?  

Add to that oddness, son was instrumental in recruiting him to the NAIA school.  HC has got to be getting close to retirement.  Son would be high on the list as a candidate to replace him.  So, theoretically, he could be his friend's college HC for two years after having graduated in the same HS class.  And, pretty sure the friend is a year older.

cabbage, ow, THAT'S a story to tell their kids!

Cabbage’s story is like those infrequent times the nephew is older than the uncle.

My mother was the oldest child of a mother with eight brothers and sisters. I’m a year older than a second cousin who is the youngest child of the ninth sibling. 

What a crappy situation for the OP's son and teammates. 

My 2020's school has not (yet?) asked any signees to "un-sign". It is an underfunded low D1 though, so I'm not sure if those dynamics matter... meaning, pulling what little scholarships they offered won't make much bottom line difference anyway I suppose (especially when considering those tuition dollars would leave once unsigned). Seems this scenario where schools ask 2020s to de-commit this late would only be at fully funded programs and likely lower tuition/non-privates?

As for publicity, in Texas, I know of one D1 that has had a couple (or more?) 2020s de-commit after signing in November. That school had shown some prior recruiting interest in my 2020 until he blew a save in an outing they traveled to watch him pitch back in 2018... looking back, maybe it is better to be (un)lucky than good as I am sure he would have been asked to un-sign, too.

@TheRightScuff posted:

What a crappy situation for the OP's son and teammates. 

My 2020's school has not (yet?) asked any signees to "un-sign". It is an underfunded low D1 though, so I'm not sure if those dynamics matter... meaning, pulling what little scholarships they offered won't make much bottom line difference anyway I suppose (especially when considering those tuition dollars would leave once unsigned). Seems this scenario where schools ask 2020s to de-commit this late would only be at fully funded programs and likely lower tuition/non-privates?

As for publicity, in Texas, I know of one D1 that has had a couple (or more?) 2020s de-commit after signing in November. That school had shown some prior recruiting interest in my 2020 until he blew a save in an outing they traveled to watch him pitch back in 2018... looking back, maybe it is better to be (un)lucky than good as I am sure he would have been asked to un-sign, too.

Keep in mind not being asked to de commit could mean showing up on campus with 40-45 players for 35 roster spots. A nit fully funded program doesn’t have a lot to lose. The player can lose a year sitting out while transferring.  Not being rostered and sitting out transferring is actually two years.