Wouldn't it be nice if we would judge people by their actions and not a slip of the tongue. We are letting PC get out of hand.
I realize there are some who believe a single word can define how someone feels. Myself, I would have to know the man a lot better to determine if he was indeed racist.
I have seen a few racists in my day that are politically corrent enough to NEVER use the "n" word. Being PC enough not to use inflamitory language certainly does not make them any less racist. Their PC behavior in fact makes them very dangerous in a completely different way.
Where is the discussion on how this coach treated his players? After all, that should matter more than anything else. Only they can tell you if he is truly racist, or just a poor judge of what terminology to use.
You sound like the slave owner that claimed "I alway's treated them well".
The inference is that if he saw no "N....." in Dunigan...then he saw "N......" in other African Americans. This is not to mention the sheer stupidity of saying it not once but twice to ESPN reporters!
If we took a poll, how many minority parents would want to play for this guy?..and you are saying he shouldn't be judged by this comment? What exactly do you think Oklahoma's other options were?
The inference is that if he saw no "N....." in Dunigan...then he saw "N......" in other African Americans. This is not to mention the sheer stupidity of saying it not once but twice to ESPN reporters!
If we took a poll, how many minority parents would want to play for this guy?..and you are saying he shouldn't be judged by this comment? What exactly do you think Oklahoma's other options were?
To Soxnole and others,
Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said this word?
Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said other derogatory words?
Should any of us ever be hired if we have ever said anything that could have been perceived as being derogatory any time in our life? Have you ever told an off-color joke?
Let me be the first to admit that if that were the case, I’d be unemployed. How about you?
So why should this fellow be held to a higher standard just because he got caught? In this situation he didn’t even intend it to be vicious.
Should college administrators and professors be held to the same standard?
Let the witch hunt begin.
Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said this word?
Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said other derogatory words?
Should any of us ever be hired if we have ever said anything that could have been perceived as being derogatory any time in our life? Have you ever told an off-color joke?
Let me be the first to admit that if that were the case, I’d be unemployed. How about you?
So why should this fellow be held to a higher standard just because he got caught? In this situation he didn’t even intend it to be vicious.
Should college administrators and professors be held to the same standard?
Let the witch hunt begin.
SBK. My answer to you is that Oklahoma had no choice but to fire this man
All of us have faults. All of us have issues.
Most of us do not represent a major Unioversity.
If we did and were as stupid as he, we'd expect and deserve to be fired.
Finally, are you really suggesting that he could be as effective in his day to day job, not to mention recruiting?
All of us have faults. All of us have issues.
Most of us do not represent a major Unioversity.
If we did and were as stupid as he, we'd expect and deserve to be fired.
Finally, are you really suggesting that he could be as effective in his day to day job, not to mention recruiting?
The bottom line is that Coach Cochell never had the required character to coach at the University of Oklahoma. Soxnole is dead on, and there is nothing PC about it. I have know plenty of people like this through my life, and they are indeed great and caring people -- with those of their own race. Others, they view as somehow lacking. Which makes me view them as lacking and absolutely intent on never allowing my sons to play in such a hypocritical and ugly environment.
And, yes, unfortunately, far too many of these individuals still exist, and, yes, every one of them ought to lose their jobs -- yesterday. By the way, that would include the present football coach at the University of Colorado.
And, yes, unfortunately, far too many of these individuals still exist, and, yes, every one of them ought to lose their jobs -- yesterday. By the way, that would include the present football coach at the University of Colorado.
Jemaz,
I respect your opinion. Do you also hold the same standard to people who use other negative words like, “Honky, F’n Jew *******, Cracker, Fish Eater, etc. etc.”?
By the way, the F’n Jew ******* was reported by a reliable source to be used by Hillary Clinton and I don’t think she meant it as a compliment. Would you let your sons work for her in such an ugly and hypocritical environment?
I respect your opinion. Do you also hold the same standard to people who use other negative words like, “Honky, F’n Jew *******, Cracker, Fish Eater, etc. etc.”?
By the way, the F’n Jew ******* was reported by a reliable source to be used by Hillary Clinton and I don’t think she meant it as a compliment. Would you let your sons work for her in such an ugly and hypocritical environment?
SBK, the term honky has absolutely no meaning to just about everyone, so I view that as irrelevant. The others are bad and should not be used. But the fact is nothing comes close to the term used by Cochell, and I suspect he knows it.
As far as my sons working for Hilary Clinton, if she were president (and someday she just might be) and it meant they were working for the president, then I would have no problem with it.
As far as my sons working for Hilary Clinton, if she were president (and someday she just might be) and it meant they were working for the president, then I would have no problem with it.
"It" has the early lead, and just might hold up as the dumbest statement of the century.
If you say we should pity the man for lack of judgement, you are right. If he was 30-40 years younger, at some private school, he might deserve "sensitivity training" and another chance.
Even college sports loosest cannon Bobby Knight never (publicly) said "that"
If you say we should pity the man for lack of judgement, you are right. If he was 30-40 years younger, at some private school, he might deserve "sensitivity training" and another chance.
Even college sports loosest cannon Bobby Knight never (publicly) said "that"
ClevelandDad, Dad04, Coach May, Florida Baseball Guy, and 4luvofthegame, Thanks for the "attaboys". Sometimes it helps to talk issues through like we've all done in a civil manner. Hopefully, someone else who might have felt it was okay to say what the coach said has learned something over the past few days.
SBK, you paid me the ultimate compliment, "...a credit...to the Human Race." I'll take that compliment any day. Thanks!
SBK, you paid me the ultimate compliment, "...a credit...to the Human Race." I'll take that compliment any day. Thanks!
Jemaz,
Thanks for your reply.
The reason I brought up hillary clinton it is an example of an unlevel playing field in this country and a lot of us are tired of it. You and many others give people like her a free ride but are calling for the death penalty for the coach.
And speaking of an unlevel playing field; if you are a former klansman who is now a democrat US senator, you can say the “n” word and you don’t even need to be a black rapper.
Once again, I am not condoning the coach’s choice of words. It is regrettable and I wish we could all do better, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of people’s attitude.
As I said before, I think there are a lot of people and groups who like to use racism to further their own agenda. I do not believe decent people of any color want to have bad people for neighbors. When we start focusing the divide as good people of any color against bad people of any color, we will be heading the right direction.
Catfish, you are welcome.
Thanks for your reply.
The reason I brought up hillary clinton it is an example of an unlevel playing field in this country and a lot of us are tired of it. You and many others give people like her a free ride but are calling for the death penalty for the coach.
And speaking of an unlevel playing field; if you are a former klansman who is now a democrat US senator, you can say the “n” word and you don’t even need to be a black rapper.
Once again, I am not condoning the coach’s choice of words. It is regrettable and I wish we could all do better, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of people’s attitude.
As I said before, I think there are a lot of people and groups who like to use racism to further their own agenda. I do not believe decent people of any color want to have bad people for neighbors. When we start focusing the divide as good people of any color against bad people of any color, we will be heading the right direction.
Catfish, you are welcome.
quote:
As far as my sons working for Hilary Clinton, if she were president (and someday she just might be) and it meant they were working for the president, then I would have no problem with it.
Unbelieveable.
Do you proof think as in proof read?
Or are there the chosen few who can do the same and get a free pass.
Ok, I give up! What is a fish eater? Count me as one. I am even worse. I am a shellfish eater. Especially lobster. 
Bbrulz,
We get that chant directed towards our Catholic school on occasion. From what I can tell it has something to do with the lent menu and is meant to be derogatory. It’s no big deal since Catholic and other Christian bashing is an accepted art among much of the secular media.
We get that chant directed towards our Catholic school on occasion. From what I can tell it has something to do with the lent menu and is meant to be derogatory. It’s no big deal since Catholic and other Christian bashing is an accepted art among much of the secular media.
Count me in as one who agrees that what Cochell said was terrible and uncalled for....but....I also see the blatant double standard applied in today's society.
Does anyone remember what Dusty Baker said last year regarding his Black and Latin players? Something to the effect that they play better during the day when it's hot and the white players play better at night when it's cool...
How and why does this man still have a job?!?! Not only did he say it, but he said it on camera. Do we forgive him because he didn't use any "bad" words?
Or is there truly a double standard when it comes to labeling people bigots and calling for their heads?
Submitted for your discussion....
Does anyone remember what Dusty Baker said last year regarding his Black and Latin players? Something to the effect that they play better during the day when it's hot and the white players play better at night when it's cool...
How and why does this man still have a job?!?! Not only did he say it, but he said it on camera. Do we forgive him because he didn't use any "bad" words?
Or is there truly a double standard when it comes to labeling people bigots and calling for their heads?
Submitted for your discussion....
I had decided not to reply to this thread, hoping my emotions would abate. They have not, so I’ve returned.
Jemaz:
Let me make sure I understand you. You are advocating a zero tolerance policy for racist remarks such as those attributed to Coach Cochell. On the other hand, while you believe the term “F’n Jew *******” is wrong, in your judgment it doesn’t “come close.” I’m curious: Why are you willing to judge one person’s character and bring the curtain down on his career for his use of the “N” word, but have no moral qualms letting your kids work for another who spews an ethnic slur with vile historical connotations? Do you have a continuum of offensive remarks, with racism at one end and anti-Semitism somewhere else? I am as offended as anyone by Coach Cochell’s remarks. But your duplicity is equally insulting.
Jemaz:
Let me make sure I understand you. You are advocating a zero tolerance policy for racist remarks such as those attributed to Coach Cochell. On the other hand, while you believe the term “F’n Jew *******” is wrong, in your judgment it doesn’t “come close.” I’m curious: Why are you willing to judge one person’s character and bring the curtain down on his career for his use of the “N” word, but have no moral qualms letting your kids work for another who spews an ethnic slur with vile historical connotations? Do you have a continuum of offensive remarks, with racism at one end and anti-Semitism somewhere else? I am as offended as anyone by Coach Cochell’s remarks. But your duplicity is equally insulting.
Hey,
To all of you guys making this a partisan political issue, check that **** (and maybe your brain) at the door of Fox News.
Blaming others to cover for Coach Cochell's ignorance is weak and we wouldn't tolerate it if our children tried this tactic.
Here is the bottomline - In the year 2005, if a coach in casual conversation (let alone in front of the press) can have the N-word roll out of his mouth that easily and that often he has a character problem.
I wonder if Coach Cochell could look this black players parents in the eye and descibe their precious son in those terms?
I thnk he would be ashamed, just as the University of Oklahoma is today.
To all of you guys making this a partisan political issue, check that **** (and maybe your brain) at the door of Fox News.
Blaming others to cover for Coach Cochell's ignorance is weak and we wouldn't tolerate it if our children tried this tactic.
Here is the bottomline - In the year 2005, if a coach in casual conversation (let alone in front of the press) can have the N-word roll out of his mouth that easily and that often he has a character problem.
I wonder if Coach Cochell could look this black players parents in the eye and descibe their precious son in those terms?
I thnk he would be ashamed, just as the University of Oklahoma is today.
Couple of things I would like to chime in on. First, as far as ESPN is concerned they grabbed a story and ran with it. For the coach who said it off line, remember one thing, when talking "know your target audience". Second, I despise the "N" word, and have little respect for anyone (regardless of race) who uses it. It is very inflamatory, and shouldn't be used. Just like "redneck" and other like words have no place here. If you can't articulate what you are trying to say without cussing or using those kind of words, you should just be quiet. "Better to let people think you are stupid, than to open your mouth, and validate it". I am glad he resigned, I commend Oklahoma University for their stance on this issue, and College baseball will be better off without this coach. Couldn't he have just said the player was good and an even better person, without getting so negative. We can ALL learn a valuable lesson from this. Stay positive, and think before you speak! Just my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Sacto BB:
Hey,
To all of you guys making this a partisan political issue, check that **** (and maybe your brain) at the door of Fox News.
Blaming others to cover for Coach Cochell's ignorance is weak and we wouldn't tolerate it if our children tried this tactic.
Here is the bottomline - In the year 2005, if a coach in casual conversation (let alone in front of the press) can have the N-word roll out of his mouth that easily and that often he has a character problem.
I wonder if Coach Cochell could look this black players parents in the eye and descibe their precious son in those terms?
I thnk he would be ashamed, just as the University of Oklahoma is today.
Some people just won't let themselves understand the point.
I guess there is only one group of people ever discriminated against and only one group of people that discriminate.
Sacto,
So who is saying it’s ok for the coach to use these words because others have?
Blaming others, finding excuses and not accepting personal responsibility seems to be the modus operandi of more of the non-Fox news crowd of which you seem to find favor with. A lot of us are tired of the games people play accusing people of being bigots and racists to enable their own agenda but to make excuses when their own slip up.
I have said on more than one occasion that the coach messed up but so have a lot of people. Doesn’t make it right but I think it’s only fair to look at the totality of his life; the context of the offense; and to apply whatever penalty is appropriate to all offenders. This is no different than I would ask for, if you or I were the accused.
If the new standard is for people who may have offended others at some time or another to summarily be fired, then let’s see who among us is left standing after the witch-hunt is over.
As I pointed out, hillary clinton has used derogatory language, as has Dusty Baker, Senator byrd and many others. Should they be held to the same standard or would you prefer a double standard?
I’ve admitted I’ve said things I wished I hadn’t. Have you?
So who is saying it’s ok for the coach to use these words because others have?
Blaming others, finding excuses and not accepting personal responsibility seems to be the modus operandi of more of the non-Fox news crowd of which you seem to find favor with. A lot of us are tired of the games people play accusing people of being bigots and racists to enable their own agenda but to make excuses when their own slip up.
I have said on more than one occasion that the coach messed up but so have a lot of people. Doesn’t make it right but I think it’s only fair to look at the totality of his life; the context of the offense; and to apply whatever penalty is appropriate to all offenders. This is no different than I would ask for, if you or I were the accused.
If the new standard is for people who may have offended others at some time or another to summarily be fired, then let’s see who among us is left standing after the witch-hunt is over.
As I pointed out, hillary clinton has used derogatory language, as has Dusty Baker, Senator byrd and many others. Should they be held to the same standard or would you prefer a double standard?
I’ve admitted I’ve said things I wished I hadn’t. Have you?
Catfish,
Thank you for such a great post.
Thank you for such a great post.
Blazer
Who did Baker backhand compliment using the N word?
I can't draw a reasonable comparison to legitimize that analogy. But that's just me. Everyone is unique in the world. Everyone has opinions as to others qualities and weaknesses. Some simply choose not to refer to others using the N word.
I just don't think that is asking too much of Big 12 baseball coach, or any other coach.
It won't matter if another 1,000 posts rationizing bad manners appear after this one. I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me.
Catfish, you're welcome.
quote:Does anyone remember what Dusty Baker said last year regarding his Black and Latin players? Something to the effect that they play better during the day when it's hot and the white players play better at night when it's cool...
How and why does this man still have a job?!?!
Who did Baker backhand compliment using the N word?
I can't draw a reasonable comparison to legitimize that analogy. But that's just me. Everyone is unique in the world. Everyone has opinions as to others qualities and weaknesses. Some simply choose not to refer to others using the N word.
I just don't think that is asking too much of Big 12 baseball coach, or any other coach.
It won't matter if another 1,000 posts rationizing bad manners appear after this one. I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me.
Catfish, you're welcome.
This thread is starting to wander and it seems to be starting to get personal.
We need to bring it back to focus.
Unless you have personal, verifyable and specific information that would shed light on anyone's character, you can't say this is a case about character.
This is a case about conduct, and the tone of language one uses in a public, or potentially public, forum.
Character is who someone is. Conduct is what someone does. Unless and until proven otherwise, they are mutually exclusive. Anything else would be the kind of discourse that should get the thread thrown out.
This is a case about a word that has no place in baseball or anywhere else. And this is a discussion about whether the use of this word should have cost a man a job.
We need to bring it back to focus.
Unless you have personal, verifyable and specific information that would shed light on anyone's character, you can't say this is a case about character.
This is a case about conduct, and the tone of language one uses in a public, or potentially public, forum.
Character is who someone is. Conduct is what someone does. Unless and until proven otherwise, they are mutually exclusive. Anything else would be the kind of discourse that should get the thread thrown out.
This is a case about a word that has no place in baseball or anywhere else. And this is a discussion about whether the use of this word should have cost a man a job.
quote:Who did Baker backhand compliment using the N word?
Never said he did...
I think we can all agree that Cochell and Baker's statements were both racist...One has a job the other doesn't.
My point is that the double standard exsists...and this example provided evidence to support my point.
Racism is racism, it doesn't matter if it appears wearing a white hood or if it comes as a "backhanded compliment" both are equally as derisive and wrong.
Hold everyone to the same standard...That's all I'm saying...
quote:One has a job the other doesn't.
One used the N word....
That's all I'm saying.
Maybe after 400 or 500 years of political, economic and social domination of the United States, by a different race, when perhaps a coach of that race uses the most derisive term possible to complment a white kid, he'll lose his job too.
Dad04,
Ignorance is bliss I guess
The clothing you dress racism up in makes no difference!!
It is the same!
Ignorance is bliss I guess
The clothing you dress racism up in makes no difference!!
It is the same!
diamond:
As far as I know, only one group has been enslaved in this nation. And, by the way, I don't endorse any of this stuff, but I absolutely believe that that one word is by far the worst. It's a result of our particular and tragic history. Moreover, the vetting process to become president (and on a national scale) is such that if there is a meaningful issue in this regard, it will be fully considered by the electorate.
As far as working for the president, I would be honored to have any of my children working for the president, no matter who the president happens to be. It is the office more than the individual and the real opportunity to make a difference.
As far as I know, only one group has been enslaved in this nation. And, by the way, I don't endorse any of this stuff, but I absolutely believe that that one word is by far the worst. It's a result of our particular and tragic history. Moreover, the vetting process to become president (and on a national scale) is such that if there is a meaningful issue in this regard, it will be fully considered by the electorate.
As far as working for the president, I would be honored to have any of my children working for the president, no matter who the president happens to be. It is the office more than the individual and the real opportunity to make a difference.
Coach, I'm ignorant?
A 47 year old college graduate, professionaly employed, living in the south, happily married 25 years, boot strapped all the way up, flying around the country, watching my honor roll listed, playoff rostered, true freshman son play for a top 20 team, parent? Coach, I don't need other parents to pay my way to amateur baseball games.
I'm ignorant, and just been insulted by a baseball coach for the last time. The most arrogant, under-qualified, overconfident, in-the-past-living, (genericly)clannish-to-a-fault group of people, with notable individual exceptions, I've ever met.
I got an ego-blind, zero baseball IQ, arm-abusing, collar-jerking, racist, bigoted high school coach canned last year and I'm proud of it. I'd do it again, in a heartbeat. The bad-tempered dullard knows exactly why he got fired and had to move 200 miles to find another $29,000 teaching job, the most he'll ever make until he starts driving a truck. Too bad, so sad. He never used the N word. See, life is fair.....sometimes.
At 47 I take precious little c r a p anymore, but my tolerance from baseball coaches is still zero.
Unbelievable.
Why do I even bother?
A 47 year old college graduate, professionaly employed, living in the south, happily married 25 years, boot strapped all the way up, flying around the country, watching my honor roll listed, playoff rostered, true freshman son play for a top 20 team, parent? Coach, I don't need other parents to pay my way to amateur baseball games.
I'm ignorant, and just been insulted by a baseball coach for the last time. The most arrogant, under-qualified, overconfident, in-the-past-living, (genericly)clannish-to-a-fault group of people, with notable individual exceptions, I've ever met.
I got an ego-blind, zero baseball IQ, arm-abusing, collar-jerking, racist, bigoted high school coach canned last year and I'm proud of it. I'd do it again, in a heartbeat. The bad-tempered dullard knows exactly why he got fired and had to move 200 miles to find another $29,000 teaching job, the most he'll ever make until he starts driving a truck. Too bad, so sad. He never used the N word. See, life is fair.....sometimes.
At 47 I take precious little c r a p anymore, but my tolerance from baseball coaches is still zero.
Unbelievable.
Why do I even bother?
There is hypocrisy in public (and, for that matter, private)life. In other news, the sun came up this morning. This is said in no way to lessen the offense; I only mention it because in any discussion of values and principles an example of another person who seems to be 'getting away with it' can be cited. I don't see that arguement as advancing the discussion. (Particularly with regard to politicians. They get fired by the voters --- it's not a parallel example.)
I've also never much cared for the "we don't know the person" point. I doubt any of us 'know' (or knew) any sitting President, for example, but I'm sure we all have opinions about them. None of us knew Jack the Ripper, but we'd all agree he was a bad 'un. I've never seen Australia, but I know it's there. The discussion isn't whether the coach is a good person or bad; it's whether or not he should have kept his job after his comments. Apparently his employers, who did know him, felt that his resignation was apropriate.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how that word is regarded in our country. Anybody who uses it, does so at their own peril, and the institution for which he worked found it unacceptable. He didn't have a right to that job no matter what. He chose to cross the line, in front of known members of the press, and defend it as the vernacular of his players. (One can only hope his imitation didn't extend to low-slung trousers and a proclivity for amplified base in his car.)
I've also never much cared for the "we don't know the person" point. I doubt any of us 'know' (or knew) any sitting President, for example, but I'm sure we all have opinions about them. None of us knew Jack the Ripper, but we'd all agree he was a bad 'un. I've never seen Australia, but I know it's there. The discussion isn't whether the coach is a good person or bad; it's whether or not he should have kept his job after his comments. Apparently his employers, who did know him, felt that his resignation was apropriate.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how that word is regarded in our country. Anybody who uses it, does so at their own peril, and the institution for which he worked found it unacceptable. He didn't have a right to that job no matter what. He chose to cross the line, in front of known members of the press, and defend it as the vernacular of his players. (One can only hope his imitation didn't extend to low-slung trousers and a proclivity for amplified base in his car.)
jemaz,
What if the President happened to be Bill Clinton and your daughter happened to be Monica Leuwinski? (SP?)
I have a hard time calling the coach a racist no matter what he said. It just seems odd that at a school like Oklahoma a true racist could have lasted so long. Besides, why would a true racist recruit Joe? Last time I saw Joe it was pretty obvious he wasn't a white guy.
He made a mistake, it cost him his career and his reputation. I doubt if good people of any race feel the need to execute him. I'd like to think there are those who would forgive him. Oh yea, that's Joe and his dad doing the forgiving. Class is class and I bet this coach loved Joe!
I hate these type of sensitive discussions because of possibly saying things the wrong way.
I'm proud of the fact that we don't see players as any color or race any more. We just see different levels of ability and makeup. Good, bad and ugly in each and every race.
We all know the "N" word is no good. I doubt using the N word even with an "a" rather than "er" on the end is something people should do. I know I'm not going to try it. Isn't it the same word pronounced differently? (southern accent) I do have a problem figuring out the proper words to describe people.
I remember way back when Negro was appropriate. But that changed to Black and then African American. Probably been a few other words used along the way.
This has always bothered me because I don't want to show disrespect to anyone. I kind of liked that Black and White thing. It was so easy and seemed harmless. Then someone told me not to use the word Black.
I was lucky to have learned a long time ago that we all bleed Red. The "N" word is a no no, but it can be used in a hateful way (KKK) or it can be used the way Coach Cochell used it. Neither is good, but one is much better than the other in my estimation. The true racist would use the word in a hateful way.
Just my opinion, don't jump all over me.
Class comes in all races as everyone can witness by reading "Catfish"
What if the President happened to be Bill Clinton and your daughter happened to be Monica Leuwinski? (SP?)
I have a hard time calling the coach a racist no matter what he said. It just seems odd that at a school like Oklahoma a true racist could have lasted so long. Besides, why would a true racist recruit Joe? Last time I saw Joe it was pretty obvious he wasn't a white guy.
He made a mistake, it cost him his career and his reputation. I doubt if good people of any race feel the need to execute him. I'd like to think there are those who would forgive him. Oh yea, that's Joe and his dad doing the forgiving. Class is class and I bet this coach loved Joe!
I hate these type of sensitive discussions because of possibly saying things the wrong way.
I'm proud of the fact that we don't see players as any color or race any more. We just see different levels of ability and makeup. Good, bad and ugly in each and every race.
We all know the "N" word is no good. I doubt using the N word even with an "a" rather than "er" on the end is something people should do. I know I'm not going to try it. Isn't it the same word pronounced differently? (southern accent) I do have a problem figuring out the proper words to describe people.
I remember way back when Negro was appropriate. But that changed to Black and then African American. Probably been a few other words used along the way.
This has always bothered me because I don't want to show disrespect to anyone. I kind of liked that Black and White thing. It was so easy and seemed harmless. Then someone told me not to use the word Black.
I was lucky to have learned a long time ago that we all bleed Red. The "N" word is a no no, but it can be used in a hateful way (KKK) or it can be used the way Coach Cochell used it. Neither is good, but one is much better than the other in my estimation. The true racist would use the word in a hateful way.
Just my opinion, don't jump all over me.
Class comes in all races as everyone can witness by reading "Catfish"
To me, the only appropriate use of the word 'ignorance' in this discussion would be for anyone supporting racism or any form of discrimination. I cannot see why the word was used, particlarly to Dad04.
I don't care for Dusty Baker on many levels, includng his 'hot weather' comments. (And don't get me started on his pitcher-handling). He, however, is employed at the pleasure of the Tribune Organization. Were it up to the public, managers would be changed, like sheets, once a week.
I don't care for Dusty Baker on many levels, includng his 'hot weather' comments. (And don't get me started on his pitcher-handling). He, however, is employed at the pleasure of the Tribune Organization. Were it up to the public, managers would be changed, like sheets, once a week.
PG Staff:
To truly understand, any of us would have to be black. All I know is what I saw for many, many years in the south from "God-fearing, good people" who viewed some people as less than dirt and thought nothing of it. Cochell reminds me of many of these same people.
And, no, none of these people were in the KKK, but they allowed it to exist with their own actions and inactions.
There can be no "better" way to use this particular word because of all it has represented.
I'm not trying to be preachy or to jump on anyone, I just strongly believe that this is unacceptable for any reason and that hardly anything else in America equates to it. And I see a huge difference between Dusty Baker and Coach Cochell.
To truly understand, any of us would have to be black. All I know is what I saw for many, many years in the south from "God-fearing, good people" who viewed some people as less than dirt and thought nothing of it. Cochell reminds me of many of these same people.
And, no, none of these people were in the KKK, but they allowed it to exist with their own actions and inactions.
There can be no "better" way to use this particular word because of all it has represented.
I'm not trying to be preachy or to jump on anyone, I just strongly believe that this is unacceptable for any reason and that hardly anything else in America equates to it. And I see a huge difference between Dusty Baker and Coach Cochell.
jemaz,
I agree with you about most of what you say.
I might not understand being a White person, but I do know Joe Dunigan is a Black person. So does he truly understand? Afterall, it was he and his dad that appeared to be the most forgiving.
Would those people you knew down south who viewed people as less than dirt have recruited Joe Dunigan and given him a scholarship to attend their college?
I just get the feeling that some people think this long time coach should FRY! Losing his career and his reputation just aren't enough I guess.
As far as nothing else in America equating to this. I can think of many things that are MUCH worse than what this coach did. And I'd be willing to bet that most people of every race have seen much worse than what happened here.
This was bad... There's been much worse!
I agree with you about most of what you say.
I might not understand being a White person, but I do know Joe Dunigan is a Black person. So does he truly understand? Afterall, it was he and his dad that appeared to be the most forgiving.
Would those people you knew down south who viewed people as less than dirt have recruited Joe Dunigan and given him a scholarship to attend their college?
I just get the feeling that some people think this long time coach should FRY! Losing his career and his reputation just aren't enough I guess.
As far as nothing else in America equating to this. I can think of many things that are MUCH worse than what this coach did. And I'd be willing to bet that most people of every race have seen much worse than what happened here.
This was bad... There's been much worse!
FBaseballGuy-Thanks or your response-agree about the WVa/OK comparison.
Catfish-Right on!! You helped me see something from a perspective I hadn't
thought of before.
I think it's great that for the most part we are discussing this sensitive issue
like mature adults and hopefully with an open mind.
I would like to throw something out and see what others think.
I honestly believe it's past time to use the "being enslaved" idea as to
why it is understandable for one race to put down another race. My family didn't own
slaves and I don't know anyone who was a slave. By the way, there were white and black
slaves in America.
As Dado4 stated, "I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me." Rationalizing that it's OK or understandable why one race can put
down another race because of past discrimination is WRONG no matter how it's sliced.
We need to decry acts of stupity and racism no matter whose mouth it comes out of. IMHO
Catfish-Right on!! You helped me see something from a perspective I hadn't
thought of before.
I think it's great that for the most part we are discussing this sensitive issue
like mature adults and hopefully with an open mind.
I would like to throw something out and see what others think.
I honestly believe it's past time to use the "being enslaved" idea as to
why it is understandable for one race to put down another race. My family didn't own
slaves and I don't know anyone who was a slave. By the way, there were white and black
slaves in America.
As Dado4 stated, "I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me." Rationalizing that it's OK or understandable why one race can put
down another race because of past discrimination is WRONG no matter how it's sliced.
We need to decry acts of stupity and racism no matter whose mouth it comes out of. IMHO
Moc1,
Well put! Very well put!
We, as an American public need to be outraged when there are Senator Byrd's out there. I applaude Oklahoma, but, like Moc1, I wonder where the outrage is when Dusty Baker makes a racist comment.
I also agree with Orlando in that Baker's case he is employed by the Tribune Company, which owns the Orlando Sentinel for one paper. What does it say about their organization when they allow Baker to make racist comments and not be held accountable? What does it day about the West Virginia voters who elect a racist without holding him accountable? What does it say about Oklahoma whom did hold the coach responsible?
As for Dad04 being ignorant, I do not think that is a fair statement. How can someone who is against racism be ignorant? In fact, I would state that he is more educated than the people using racist words against African Americans.
But whatever your feelings this has been a very educational thread. Let's keep it that way! No personal attacks!
Well put! Very well put!
We, as an American public need to be outraged when there are Senator Byrd's out there. I applaude Oklahoma, but, like Moc1, I wonder where the outrage is when Dusty Baker makes a racist comment.
I also agree with Orlando in that Baker's case he is employed by the Tribune Company, which owns the Orlando Sentinel for one paper. What does it say about their organization when they allow Baker to make racist comments and not be held accountable? What does it day about the West Virginia voters who elect a racist without holding him accountable? What does it say about Oklahoma whom did hold the coach responsible?
As for Dad04 being ignorant, I do not think that is a fair statement. How can someone who is against racism be ignorant? In fact, I would state that he is more educated than the people using racist words against African Americans.
But whatever your feelings this has been a very educational thread. Let's keep it that way! No personal attacks!
Let me just say this. The coach had to go , he might be a racist he might not be. Because he said what he said he created doubt and once he did that - He had to go. To say that a man is a racist based on the fact that he said the N word or called someone a cracker is just bs. My father grew up in a different time a different era. He grew up in a small southern town and was hired out to local farmers to do farm work and his money went back to his family to pay bills. This was a common practice. He had to quit school in the fourth grade to go to work and support the family as did his other brothers. He was a product of the environment that he grew up in. White kids referred to black kids as Ners. And black kids referred to white kids as crackers. My father left home at 18 and joined the Army and retired after 23 years in the Army. When he got out of this environment and lived fought and raised his family around black people he learned that all they wanted was the same thing he did. That was a better life for his children than he had. He raised us to treat everyone with dignity and respect regardless of the color of thier skin. During my years in the professional world and coaching I have run across all types of people. I have always been leary of the people who are quick to color people something based on one incident or something they might say. Some people say all the right things but there actions do not jive with their words. I will hold my judgement on anyone because I do not know there heart only they do. I will see their actions and their deeds and formulate my opinion on those. I am not condoneing the actions of this coach. He should have been fired for what he said. But that in my opinion does not mean he is a racist. And it does not wipe out all the good he has done for kids for over 30 years. Chill on all the stones being thrown at him ok. He has suffered enough. He has to live with what he said. Sometimes the first person to throw a stone is just as guilty of the actions that the person being stoned is guilty of.
Just for the record, Coach Cochell was raised in Oregon and spent a lot of years in Arizona and California before he came to Oklahoma. I say this only because some comments were made equating his supposed racism to a southern upbringing. That is not the case. No one area of the country can be blamed for racism either perceived or actual.
Also, a lot of posters are making some very bold assumptions about a man whom they have never met. I have only known Larry Cochell personally for about 3 years now, and I won't presume to know his innermost thoughts and values. I will say that I have read interviews where coaches who have known him for over 40 years have said they have never heard any racist comments from him. I would have to believe that these men should have a much better knowledge of him than any of us.
I wish we were privy to the entire transcript of the dialogue that took place between Mr. Thorne and Peterson and Coach Cochell. We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson. Why have they taken this stance when a man's livelihood was clearly on the line? I would like to know what line of questioning may have led up to the unfortunate choice of words by Coach Cochell...I am in no way condoning what he did and I agree with the decision to have him resign but in my heart I believe there is more to this than is being reported. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and if you want to label him a racist or whatever you desire, you have that right...but I will choose to remember him as the kind and caring gentleman who recruited my son to play baseball at the University of Oklahoma, and as a coach who believes that baseball is a means to achieve a college education. It is well known in the OU community that Coach Cochell cares deeply about his players no matter what their race or religion might be. Larry Cochell is a survivor and he will survive this. He has survived prostate cancer and Friday will undergo a heart procedure to repair two severely clogged arteries. My family's thoughts and prayers are with him and I hope yours are as well, no matter what your personal feelings towards him may be. Also, I have lived in Texas all my life and was raised to respect all people of all races. My husband and I raised our two sons the same way. Our son at OU is planning on sharing an apartment next year with Joe Dunigan, a fine young man whom he is proud to call both his teammate and friend.
Also, a lot of posters are making some very bold assumptions about a man whom they have never met. I have only known Larry Cochell personally for about 3 years now, and I won't presume to know his innermost thoughts and values. I will say that I have read interviews where coaches who have known him for over 40 years have said they have never heard any racist comments from him. I would have to believe that these men should have a much better knowledge of him than any of us.
I wish we were privy to the entire transcript of the dialogue that took place between Mr. Thorne and Peterson and Coach Cochell. We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson. Why have they taken this stance when a man's livelihood was clearly on the line? I would like to know what line of questioning may have led up to the unfortunate choice of words by Coach Cochell...I am in no way condoning what he did and I agree with the decision to have him resign but in my heart I believe there is more to this than is being reported. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and if you want to label him a racist or whatever you desire, you have that right...but I will choose to remember him as the kind and caring gentleman who recruited my son to play baseball at the University of Oklahoma, and as a coach who believes that baseball is a means to achieve a college education. It is well known in the OU community that Coach Cochell cares deeply about his players no matter what their race or religion might be. Larry Cochell is a survivor and he will survive this. He has survived prostate cancer and Friday will undergo a heart procedure to repair two severely clogged arteries. My family's thoughts and prayers are with him and I hope yours are as well, no matter what your personal feelings towards him may be. Also, I have lived in Texas all my life and was raised to respect all people of all races. My husband and I raised our two sons the same way. Our son at OU is planning on sharing an apartment next year with Joe Dunigan, a fine young man whom he is proud to call both his teammate and friend.
Nice post there, lady..............
"We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson."
I added the italics and wondering if our local journalist want to comment on just printing PART of the story?
Or just what THEY THOUGHT was important or ...catchy....?
It will be interesting to follow this to conclusion.
Even if the coach is a turd, and I doubt that, with the recent record of journalist, I'm betting my money on the coach and I hope he gets some of the journalist's dough or the Dan Rather treatment gets applied to the media moguls.
Do we really want to convict someone based on what we read in the paper or see on TV.
Just because its in the paper doesn't mean its true, does it?
"We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson."
I added the italics and wondering if our local journalist want to comment on just printing PART of the story?
Or just what THEY THOUGHT was important or ...catchy....?
It will be interesting to follow this to conclusion.
Even if the coach is a turd, and I doubt that, with the recent record of journalist, I'm betting my money on the coach and I hope he gets some of the journalist's dough or the Dan Rather treatment gets applied to the media moguls.
Do we really want to convict someone based on what we read in the paper or see on TV.
Just because its in the paper doesn't mean its true, does it?
"I am so proud of your son Mr. Dunigan. There's obviously no n----r in your boy!"
Can you imagine if Coach Cochell had said that to Joe's father? What's the difference? Perhaps that should be the litmus test. If you wouldn't say it to their face, don't say it.
Can you imagine if Coach Cochell had said that to Joe's father? What's the difference? Perhaps that should be the litmus test. If you wouldn't say it to their face, don't say it.
quote:Do we really want to convict someone based on what we read in the paper or see on TV.
Does the coach really resign two days later if it was fabricated?
Dad04,
With battling prostrate cancer and now facing open heart surgery, do you think it's possible that he has to save his strength for other things right now?
Can you humanely concede this possibility?
With battling prostrate cancer and now facing open heart surgery, do you think it's possible that he has to save his strength for other things right now?
Can you humanely concede this possibility?