Rivals Now Ranking 6th Graders

VA Tech already has them in the data base!! Where have you been!! LOL I am joking they only have a few in the data base!

They certainly put you in the database when you attend a camp.

PG has already been doing it since 2005!

 

December 5^th 2015

 

Perfect Game Toddlers announced

 

The industry leader in showcasing and scouting of the nations top 7-11 year olds announced today a new organization for tracking and following the most critical talent pool for baseball available;  kids aged 2-6 years. “After extensive studies on MLB players we have found a direct correlation between high performance baseball skills and the performance of kids games such as; duck duck goose, four square, and ring around the posey” “We have found that kids that excel in hand eye coordination games that we used to think were for fun and entertainment for our kids actually translate into high performance baseball skills at the major league level” said program director Ferris Wheeler.

 

‘Our research has shown that if we can track toddler’s performance and help them improve their performance in kids games then they will be able to translate these skills directly to the baseball field, abet a few years later” We have found that for instance that the Hockey Pokey is a perfect warm up and cool activity, “you can warm up and cool down by shaking it all around” said Dr. I. Ball director of physical programs for PGT.

 

Although tailored and directed toward identifying the top 200 Toddlers in the United States this program is by no means meant to be exclusionary. “We think all kids need to participate in dodgeball and Jacks” said Dan Saul Knight Western Director for PGT.

 

Said Eastern Region Director Ginger Vitus “we will be sure to make sure that there will be opportunities for kids of all skill levels to participate” “though performance testing we can easily identify the top 200 toddlers without upsetting the play yard” she added.

 

I.P. Daily program devloper said “we will begin introductory showcases starting next week in Florida” we will initially focus the program on the South East and then we plan on actively introducing this program to the rest of the county”

 

Filling out the PGT staff will be Hy Ball, Director of Hockey Pokey, Iona Frisby, Director of duck duck goose, Lois Price, Director of Jacks, Noah Lott, Director of doggy where’s your bone, Sam Manilla, Director of red light green light, and finally Sum Yung Guy, Director of Marbles.

 

Once successful in the South East  PGT plans on opening toddler development and testing centers across the United States. “We think that that this program will dovetail perfectly with Gymboree where kids were having fun, but not developing the necessary skills to make them rich and famous like we all want our kids to be” said  National PGT spokesperson Constance Noring.

 

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Does anyone know of a good Hokey Pokey coach in the Houston area?  I prefer one who at least has college credentials, pro experience is good, also.  I don't want my toddler falling behind.

Ok that was funny.  Hopefully PG will take it with good humor as intended.

There is a sucker born every minute..Pt Barnum is rollin over in his grave that he didn't have this idea..

Thanks for reviving, BOF.  Ferris Wheeler is the best fictitious name ever.

How can you not laugh? plus they are making money off all of this, credit cards from 6th grade parents cash as well as any other!

 

Well done BOF!

  This is crazy.

 

My son started playing Pwee football at age 9 and finished playing at age 12.

 

Age 9 position:  tackle

Age 10 position:  TE

Age 11 position:  TE, linebacker

Age 12 position:  QB, punter, kicker.

 

Now as a sophomore he is starting Varsity QB and punter. 

 

How many college QB's will be drafted as pro QBs?

If there is money to be made, someone will find an angle.

If the people want it and will pay for it, someone will provide it.

The smart people will find it amusing, the others will hire an Agent.

Baseball America has been ranking 12yo 6th graders for years.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Baseball America has been ranking 12yo 6th graders for years.

 

And the accuracy of those rankings is about as the same as their rankings for HS players, which is just about nil.

Just by way of example, here is an "All-American" ranking of 10U players from a few years ago:

 

http://travelballselect.com/10u-tbs-2012-all-america/

 

Crazy stuff.

You might want to take another look at that. In fact, their ranking of 12yo's has been remarkably accurate in at least a few years. I actually charted this a few years ago and found, for example, that for one season (when Bryce Harper was 12) their top 10 consisted of 4 eventual first round draft choices. All the others but one attended D1 schools and the one landed at a prominent D3. However, when you're talking the absolute cream of the crop, picking 10 players, even at the age of 12, who will find success isn't all that hard.

However, to give BA some credit, they stopped ranking 12yos in 2005.

This would be a great thing if it was intended as a study to show who was a stud at 9 yrs old and ended up getting on 1. HS team 2. College 3. Pros; maybe Stats4nats could run the algorithms.

Hoop Scoop starts rating players at age ten. My son was rated one of the top 10yo point guards in our metro area. A friend, a former NBA player asked me what I thought it meant. I told him I thought it was foolish to rate a 4'8" basketball player. Aside from being good for ten he was passing to a 5'10" ten year old who became the top college recruit in his grade in our state. He went to an ACC.

I kid, I kid...

 

Gotta love that photo 

 

I still laugh every time BOF brings back that old post.  Even though the joke was about us, that was one of the funniest threads ever on this site. I think a few people actually believed it was all true.

 

Honestly I don't see anything so wrong about ranking at any age.  They have contests for the cutest baby.  That winner might end up being an ugly adult, but so what, he/she will always be the winner of that cutest baby contest.

 

So what if the top ranked 10 year old doesn't end up being a prospect.  Isn't just being recognized the best 10 year old quite an accomplishment in itself.  I mean everyone seems to be OK ranking 18 year olds or college players.  Many of them will not be playing baseball in 10 years.  Better being a has been than a never was.  Besides, if you had data from thousands of 10 year olds it might be important in some way to someone.

 

Reminds me of all the questions, some that have been asked here before.  Questions like, what is the average velocity of a 12 year old pitcher?  Well, who the hell could know that unless you gunned every 12 year old pitcher in the country.  However maybe if you had thousands of 12 year olds in a database you could have an educated guess.  No, I don't know why that could be important, but all information is important to someone.

ESPN - The ultimate driver of this stuff.

 

We took another step closer to national championships in Football with ESPN televising season ending games between State Champions from different parts of the country being pitted against each other.

 

IMO we may be less than 5 years away from ESPN looking to do a HS National Championship among 8 teams in the mid December to New Years time frame to get content after the College Regular season ends.

 

When that happens HS will become the new college as there will be huge money at stake for the schools that can get in on it.  No doubt the National HS Fed will have to be greased but have to imagine there will be millions sloshing around for the ESPN Top 8 to play 3 rounds of games in 14 days. 

 

That is when you will have the 12 year old scouting kick in because Bishop Gorman or Don Bosco need to reload.

 

Not as crazy as you might think....by 2020.  See it clearly!  Basketball will be even easier with 16 teams playing on Mondays and Tuesdays during the NCAA tournament window.

 

I'd bet next years salary some guy in Bristol is working on this as I type. 

 

I agree with PG.  What's really wrong with it.  Saw his competitor is doing a 7th and 8th grade showcase.  Mulling it over.  How better to prepare him for the nerves and the process he will have to go through in high school?  And I asked him, what if we did go and you look around and realize you are just middle of the pack or maybe even lower?  Will that bother you?  Hurt your confidence?  And in a most mature way the 7th grader said, "no it will show me I have to work harder".  Don't sell these kids short.  Let them grow up.  Sooner or later they have to know where they are in order to know how to get where they are trying to go.  And I agree with root also.  I think we may be surprised at how little things change from 12 to 18.  But maybe if you knew where you ranked at 12 or 13 you would have time to work hard enough to get there.  I read PG velocities all the time and am shocked how many kids in high school go to showcases with velocities in the 70's.   Some even low to mid 70's.   That tells me they are completely out of touch with what it takes.  Maybe if they went to a showcase at 12 and saw some kids already in the 70's they may have known and actually had time to do something about it.  Not that its ever too late but it gets harder because what good travel team or high school program want to take a 16yo pitcher throwing 72?

You have to keep in mind though that this is coming from Rivals, a site dedicated to recruiting. So, this isn't simply a matter of giving kids recognition for what they have done as sixth graders, but actually a heads up for who to watch for future recruiting purposes. Ridiculoius, you say? Maybe not. While cerftainly not as accurate as a list of ninth graders or juniors, there is obviously a market for this. It's not simply for bragging rights. As long as colleges are seeking verbals from eighth graders (and they most definitely are), why would you not think they would be making an attempt to identify future recruits as 12-year-olds?

       
       
No doubt root.  You may want to worry about yourself though cause you and I see a lot of things alike!  May not be good to think like me!  I remember going to see a kid a few years older than me pitch when he was 12 or 13.  It was a big talked about match up.  What was considered the best TEAM in town vs. This pitcher who was no doubt the best pitcher in the history of youth baseball in my town.  He later went on to throw about 97 in high school and played 15 years in the bigs.  The great ones are obvious even at 12.  But its that next level like my son who really needs this type of ranking.  I already know my son is not one of the natural born greats who would be ranked top 50 in the nation or something.  But is he top 200?  500?  1000? Is he on track to be D1 recruitable?  No idea really.  A ranking would at least give an idea of where he is now.  And the one college camp he goes to makes absolutely no secret of the fact they keep a file on these kids.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

You might want to take another look at that. In fact, their ranking of 12yo's has been remarkably accurate in at least a few years. I actually charted this a few years ago and found, for example, that for one season (when Bryce Harper was 12) their top 10 consisted of 4 eventual first round draft choices. All the others but one attended D1 schools and the one landed at a prominent D3. However, when you're talking the absolute cream of the crop, picking 10 players, even at the age of 12, who will find success isn't all that hard.

 

But how much of that success is because of the notoriety from being on some list? What you’re saying is that out of the millions of 12YOs playing the game, BA is able to correctly project the best. That would carry more weight with me if scouts and ML teams were better able to project HS and college players.

Our metro paper does a top ten at their positions (twenty for outfield) in the five county area each year. My son was on the list at his position. I don't believe the person writing the article ever saw him play. He probably saw very few of the kids on the list play. There always seemed to be a direct connection to being on the list and what travel team a kid played on. I'm guessing the guy who covers high school sports went by last years all conference lists and calling the five top travel programs.

       
       
Stats when was the last time you went to a 12 year old tournament?  You should go to a good one - make sure it is in fact a good one - it is amazing how a handful of those kids will jump out at you.  It would take an utter collapse of epic proportions for them not to be a D1 player or draft pick when their time comes.  I mean when a kid of 12 is throwing 70-75 he has 6 years to put on 15 mph!  Not even 3mph a year!  And presumably his maturation and biggest growth is yet to come!  Explain to me how that kid is anything other than a D1 prospect at 12 years old?  Then there are the 12 year olds with 80mph exit velocities.  Given the 1.15 bats there may even be a few over 90 somewhere.   Kids who have the ball just jump off the bat and leave you with your jaw dropped.  It is really pretty amazing what some of these kids can do.  And it doesn't take a seasoned scout to see they have a future.  It is that next level that we need the scouts and showcases for.  I for one am all for it.

Personal anecdotal experience, "A Tale of 2 Players":

 

Some kids stand out and continue to stand out,

son played with a great player from Tenn who is highly rated now, & was highly rated at 12 years old on the above referenced list, their national team won a big tourney at 14u, this player keeps getting better. .

That kid remains a standout and pro prospect, (and a nice young man).

 

However, on the same 12 yr old age list from that link someone posted in this thread,

is another player (from the Northeast) son has played with and against from time to time, this other kid clearly peaked a couple of years or so ago.

Have not seen this second player at any pro invite workouts in the Northeast at all the last 2 years.

 

 

Originally Posted by jolietboy:

Stats when was the last time you went to a 12 year old tournament?  You should go to a good one - make sure it is in fact a good one - it is amazing how a handful of those kids will jump out at you.  It would take an utter collapse of epic proportions for them not to be a D1 player or draft pick when their time comes.  I mean when a kid of 12 is throwing 70-75 he has 6 years to put on 15 mph!  Not even 3mph a year!  And presumably his maturation and biggest growth is yet to come!  Explain to me how that kid is anything other than a D1 prospect at 12 years old?  Then there are the 12 year olds with 80mph exit velocities.  Given the 1.15 bats there may even be a few over 90 somewhere.   Kids who have the ball just jump off the bat and leave you with your jaw dropped.  It is really pretty amazing what some of these kids can do.  And it doesn't take a seasoned scout to see they have a future.  It is that next level that we need the scouts and showcases for.  I for one am all for it.

 

Well congratulations! I’m sure there’s some ML team out there willing to pay you millions to identify players at 12 rather than pay an entire scouting system to try to do the same thing with players 5-15 years older. Why don’t you send your thoughts and resume` to a few dozen owners and see what happens. Best of luck.

 

 

Maybe you're right about 12 yo. I'm skeptical at that age, and the younger you go, the less accurate it gets. I know 4 kids on that 10U All-American list from 2012 that I posted earlier. Those kids are now 13U. One of the four is no longer playing baseball, two of them wouldn't make an all-county team now, and one is still really dominant. 

 

So, I would take those things for what they're worth -- fun for the kids, a nice thing to send to the grandparents. A cool thing. But extremely, extremely limited predictive value. As always, just my opinion . . .

 

 

Whatever VT has in their database, it clearly ain't working for them!  I follow VT football and attended a handful of games the last couple years.  7-6 in the ACC ain't getting it done.  

 

Better data mining techniques and process are definetly needed!  

Stats, why the attitude? No need to get defensive. This certainly isn't your area of expertise. It's not like he attacked the use of WAR or something. Do you not think those ML scouts at least have some of those "stud" 12yo's on a list somewhere? I guarantee you ML scouts were looking at Delino Deshields, Jr. and Bryce Harper at 12. Joilet has a point. Go see a top-level 12yo tourney. What you see may amaze you. I'll also say that joliet's example of a 12yo throwing 70-75 isn't even the very cream of the crop.

I always have trouble when extremes become the norm.

 

It does not take a grizzled scout to identify prodigious talent.  The argument is not the 1% of the 1% it is today's 5% to 10% and how many will be in the 1% 6 years from now. 

 

If you name that very top group and 1/3, 1/2 or more become DI/Professional players then as a scouting service you tout that and try to make money.

 

I for one would not have a great deal of interest in my 12 year old being singled out that early.  Seems like way too much downside to nothing upside.  If you are still a player 6 years later ...so what no gain....if you don't then you have a kid who has a 12 year old glory days story of epic proportions that he can prove from the internet.  Sounds and feels very slippery to me.

That's an interesting question. I have heard that scouts don't really look until age 14 or so. OTOH, a couple of years ago 2019Son was at a big 12U tournament in Vegas with most of the top 12U teams in the country (teams from Florida, Texas, all the top SoCal teams, Lamorinda from NorCal, etc.). 2019Son's team was playing a team from Miami that was highly regarded -- I believe ranked no. 1 in the country. There were two guys behind the plate with a radar gun, taking notes on kids. They asked the dad scorekeepers for names that corresponded to the numbers. When asked, they said they were scouts. Who knows? 

 

But that game highlights why I'm skeptical. The 12U pitcher for the other team was in 7th grade, had clearly hit puberty some time ago (he was like 6 ft., 170 lbs.), and was sitting 77-78 mph. Our pitcher was in 6th grade, hadn't come close to sniffing puberty, was about 5' 3", 105 lbs., and was sitting 68 mph. Who is the better prospect? I don't know, but once they've BOTH gone through puberty it'll be a lot clearer.

They certainly don't look too hard because it's so far away from them being able to do anyhting about it. I've sat behind the plate with scouts at 12u and 13u games like the USSSA Winter Championships. They are just filling time and making lists. Now, when it comes to 12yo's in places like the DR, they are a lot more active because they can soon sign some of those guys.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Stats, why the attitude? No need to get defensive. This certainly isn't your area of expertise. It's not like he attacked the use of WAR or something. Do you not think those ML scouts at least have some of those "stud" 12yo's on a list somewhere? I guarantee you ML scouts were looking at Delino Deshields, Jr. and Bryce Harper at 12. Joilet has a point. Go see a top-level 12yo tourney. What you see may amaze you. I'll also say that joliet's example of a 12yo throwing 70-75 isn't even the very cream of the crop.

 

Attitude maybe. Defensive, no way! I don’t have to be an expert to know how much kids change between 12 and whatever, and what does WAR have to do with anything? I don’t happen to be a fan of it because it doesn’t pertain to the level of ball I’m interested in, so I don’t care what anyone thinks of it. If a scout has a 12YO on a list as a viable ML prospect, I think he’s a fool so I don’t care if he’s got 12YO’s on a list or not.

 

IMHO, anyone who tries to make 12YO baseball relevant to ML baseball is foolish. Good grief! The ML teams can’t see ALL the HS and college kids playing. What makes anyone believe they have the time to look at every kid below that who’s playing the game?

 

Ya know, when my kid was 8 YO I thought that level of ball was relevant and that scouts should be looking at those players. Time showed me how wrong I was.

A 5'3" 105 12 yo throwing 68 would be a sight to behold.  He must have incredible mechanics.  So who is the better prospect?  I don't honestly know.  On the one hand the big kid has not very far to go.  And I hit puberty at 11 and still grew a heck of a lot more and ended at 6'4".  Just cause you start to get a little hair on your legs doesn't mean you are done growing.  I would still say.the 78mph kid is a slightly better prospect cause all he really needs is about 7 or 8 mph to pitch somewhere D1 and its likely growth alone will take care of that.  The 5'3" kid?  Also a prospect I would say.  How tall are his parents?  The one thing I would worry about with that kid is to throw 68 at that age and size I don't even need to see him to say his mechanics have to be darn near perfect.  So he won't gain any velocity due to better mechanics it will all have to be growth and maturity.   Who will win the race to the mid to upper 80's and D1 recruitability?  I am cheering for both!  One thing is for sure I would have really enjoyed watching that match up.  If we are all still on here a few years from now set a calendar alert to tell us how the two turned out!

       
       
Stats, stats, stats...  I don't want to see you getting this worked up so early in the day!  So Bill Veeck was foolish because he started scouting a kid names Harold Baines at age 12?  And the Sox drafted him #1 overall.  As a sox fan I was heartbroken at the time you know why?  I so wanted my schoolmate a few years older to be drafted by my favorite team.  Instead the 12yo we used to watch pitch went #2 in the nation just behind Harold.  And we didn't have radar on 12yo's at the time but he may have been throwing 80 at 12 no lie.  Both of these guys were noticed very very young and both went on to successful mlb careers.  Again it is not hard to spot the phenoms.  Its the next level of kids who need some perapective.

I'd say the math that Rivals has used looks something like this:

 

Revenue = ax² + bx + c, where:

x = number of 12 year old baseball players, which is probably 5-10x the number of high school players.

a = insatiable appetite of parents of 12 year olds to dream big about their kids' future.

b = the amount of money parents of 12 year olds are willing to spend on anything related to youth sports.

c = a constant related to parental ego regarding their 12 year old players.