Service Academy Draftee

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
lol -
But in 6 pages of emotion & comments, the only thing I've learned is that West Point has let a couple cadets use some "leave" and play 1-ONE-UNO short season before beginning active service.
it kinda sounds more like you're trying to convince youself otherwise -

and I do congratulate your cadet & wish him the best

That's ok if that's what you took from this thread. But even that should prove two points...

1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men

2. That they could continue to play in the minors and avoid active duty if they were avoiding or dodging service, as has been suggested, yet put it aside to serve.

Thanks for your best wishes.

quote:

So, from the comfort of your easy chair, you dictate...get off that baseball field and get out there defend our country right now mister.

Nope...I think it was the soldier himself who VOLUNTEERED to serve their country. Apparently it was the academies who decided they would better serve our country on the baseball field rather than elsewhere. And that is the disagreement I have.

"yet you have zero experience and want to argue the point with someone who served."I'm not whining about it though, I have big shoulders, I can take it.


This does get tiring..and it will be the last time I say this. I'm not ARGUING with you about ANYTHING. You are the one who has made this a personal issue...not me. My "beef" is with the academies and military who offer these "provisos". Why shouldn't any boy accept such an offer..you get the best of both worlds IF those are the two worlds you wish to be in. Also, since you really know NOTHING about me, my life, or my family....I think you are being quite presumptuous and arrogant in your assumptions. But hey...I guess you need those big shoulders to hold up that big head! NOt a "cheapshot"...right on target.

"The good news for you, is that I and all others who served earned your right to express your opinion also, regardless of its foundation."

And..I have said repeatedly I have nothing but respect for our military and thanks to them...we can have this discussion. BUT...you need to make up your mind...are we ALLOWED to express opinions or not? Before you said we couldn't if we never served personally.

"My son made a commitment to the Army to serve, with a proviso. The Army made a commitment to my son to provide an education and develop a leader of character, with a proviso."

To serve with "Proviso"...now THERE is a motto we can all be proud of. I'm thinking that it could be the closing tagline in that advertisement:

"Bee> all that you can be...a switch hitting first baseman"....."serve with proviso in today's Army".

quote:

Originally posted by luvbb:
....I think you are being quite presumptuous and arrogant. But hey...I guess you need those big shoulders to hold up that big head! NOt a "cheapshot"...right on target.

I don't remember calling you a name, but if that's your best tactic, you're welcome to it. It's not presumptious to assume you have no experience with the military, it's quite obvious.

BUT...you need to make up your mind...are we ALLOWED to express opinions or not? Before you said we couldn't if we never served personally.

I don't remember ever saying that anyone wasn't allowed to express an opinion, I think you made that up. There is a monumental difference between allowing an opinion and considering the validity of an opinion...it's not my place to allow anything, I can however question the validity of an opinion whether based in ignorance or fact.

by cplz:
"But even that should prove two points..."

"1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men"

agree!


"2. That they could continue to play in the minors ..."

huh?, I can't get there .. you'll have to walk me thru #2 .. soo, you're saying the Army wanted them to stay in MiLB for the recruiting PR, but they chose to go active??



oops, I added while you were responding

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
by cplz:
"But even that should prove two points..."

"1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men"

agree!


"2. That they could continue to play in the minors ..."

huh?, you'll have to walk me thru #2

Bee, it has been suggested here that playing baseball is a way to "get out of their commitment". #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service. Instead they chose to quit pro baseball and serve in traditional active duty.

There isn't a lot of value to a minor leaguer. There is some, but that is more internally at the academy, rather than in the public. The value becomes pronounced when the player reaches the majors. The Army does encourage players to go pro, however I don't believe there is any pressure put on them to stay pro once they get there.

quote:

by cplz: #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service.

there is no basis for reaching that conclusion ...
someone else could just as easily conclude that the choice (quietly) given to them was
"begin your active service after 1 season - or face awol & the brig"

If anyone is further interested in discussing the policy in place with the military and academies I am more than willing to participate. But getting bogged down in insults and bullying is a waste of time and energy. I do not presume to know ANYTHING about you CPLZ, your family, your experiences...which is why I only TRIED to focus on policy, which was admittedly daunting at times. It is a shame you couldn't try to do the same.

I'll end with the same sentiment as the very first one I wrote you in this thread:

"CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son."

So CPLZ... have fun carrying on the rampage....and enjoy having the last word.

quote:

Originally posted by luvbb:
If anyone is further interested in discussing the policy in place with the military and academies I am more than willing to participate. But getting bogged down in insults and bullying is a waste of time and energy. I do not presume to know ANYTHING about you CPLZ, your family, your experiences...which is why I only TRIED to focus on policy, which was admittedly daunting at times. It is a shame you couldn't try to do the same.

I'll end with the same sentiment as the very first one I wrote you in this thread:

"CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son."

So CPLZ... have fun carrying on the rampage.

Again LUVBB, totally untrue. Your focus was so far from trying to understand it wasn't in the same area code. Using terms like "arrogant, hold up that big head, have fun carrying on the rampage", those are not geared towards understanding. You'd have to point out the insults I used, I don't remember them. I only remember having a strong opinion and no fear of expressing it.

Your effort was to be right, and you weren't.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by cplz: #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service.

there is no basis for reaching that conclusion ...
someone else could just as easily conclude their choice was begin active service or awol & the brig

Only true if they were cut, which they weren't. They were still rostered players and made a choice to leave pro baseball. They could have stayed pro if their intent was to "avoid living up to their commitment". The intent of #2 was to show that aversion wasn't their intent as they chose active duty.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

Bee, it has been suggested here that playing baseball is a way to "get out of their commitment".

No freakin way!

Comments came after JWeaver's post about special circmustances. Go back and reread.

IMO, from another thread, after following I got the impression the military was the bad guy, they should allow these cadets (for awhile at least) a chance to pursue their dream of playing pro ball. That was my impression.
The next thing ya know, we are told this is good recruiting and PR for the academies and postponing for baseball should be considered a special circumstance. I don't care if anyone wants to postpone anything, but don't convince me pro baseball is a good reason. That's the issue, IMO.
I also felt from CPLZ's remarks, either follow his way or thinking or head south, was not an appropriate comment that should come from active or former military personnel. The next thing you know the conversation turns around, we CAN make those comments and ask questions due to our military. Been so confusing.

Freakin Way,
No Way.

I'm sorry I can not join the Debate this morning,
My first night back at work, After a 2 week Vacation.
And I just don't feel up to it.
Can I take a Break today??
It's not that I'm not Committed to the Fight.
It's just I have Special need's.
And I really don't want to Discuss it here.

EH

EH,
Are you citing special circumstances for no posting today?

If so, granted.

Yes, CPLZ's posts can be very confusing:

He'll "defend to the death" our right to "pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served.". I take it that means we can have an opinion; it's just wrong, de facto, if we don't agree with him.

He insults me with "You claimed to know alot about baseball, yet you've never heard of this policy. It's been in place 6 years now, so I guess you must not be as informed as you purport here." Not knowing about Academy policy prior to this discussion means I'm not informed about baseball?? Blast. If I explain the Balk Rule, can I have my baseball creds back?

No, you didn't call luvbb a name; nor did she say you did. But sometimes people take offense at being told to "go to hell". Hey, ClevelandDad, why didn't that make your 'cheap shots' list?

I don't quite understand your 'nobility' at being able to take shots, considering that your posts, sir, turned a discussion about policy into personal attacks. (Don't trust your memory: reread).

And Bee's assessment on the active duty or awol question? Spot on, Bee.

quote:

by cplz: The intent of #2 was to show that aversion wasn't their intent as they chose active duty.

ok, you are correct they DID choose

again, you may have a basis for the conclusion you reached, but have NOT shared that info here so others would have difficulty reaching the same conclusion

and since no facts have been offered otherwise, a reasonable assumption could be that after their 1rst pro season on extended leave, their choices were -

a) report for active duty on xx date

b) DO NOT report for active duty on xx date, be AWOL and subject to military policy for your actions


if ya have some inside info, I'm all ears

I'm not claiming expertise in these matters, just observing the info provided and thinkin' it out ..
tho my son was contacted by both Army and Air Force with recruiting interest & we asked a ton of questions during that time about this issue

quote:

Hey, ClevelandDad, why didn't that make your 'cheap shots' list?

That is a fair question. IMHO, there have been some hostilities (cheap shots if you will) in this thread between members but there has only been one "cheap shot" directed (perhaps implied) at another member's kid. When have inuendos like that ever been fair game on the hsbbweb?

The best I can tell by re-reading the posts in this thread is there has been only one member who has taken it beyond the policy discussion and indicated that not only do they disagree with the policy but they also perhaps find it less than honorable for a cadet to take advantage of such policy.

If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly. Otherwise, please point out how previous comments have been misinterpreted. Are we talking about policy here or are we also casting aspersions on those who abide by it.

CLPZ and EH have tried to justify the policy. After reading all the arguments here on both sides, I am not sure I am smart enough to do that.

quote:

by CD: If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly

there-in lies the problem ...
if someone could kindly post that "proviso" verbatum, things would be crystal clear -
or is is one of those "classified" things that we can see ... but then ya have to kill us??


in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by CD: If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly

if someone could kindly post that "proviso" verbatum, things would be crystal clear


in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed

1) Did they in fact say no Bee>? All they have to do to end this controversy is say "no pro option" during the recruiting phase.

IMHO, they (e.g., air force) are vague because they want things both ways as well. An athlete who is on the edge about this issue it allows them to compete with all the other D1's out there by being purposefully vague.

Here is your proof that such a policy and resultant promises do in fact exist:

Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.

quote:

by CD: Here is your proof that such a policy and resultant promises do in fact exist:

Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.

the "proviso" (that's such a cool word ) may well be as cplz has vaguely explained it ..
again, we could be certain and understand it clearly if we saw it
is it inked on the back of a cocktail napkin or something??

but to suggest that it MUST BE SO because a player was drafted is a bit far-fetched

the players in question QUIT pro ball after 1-ONE-UNO short season

was the MLB team stupid? I guess that can be debated

were those "burned draft picks"? ABSOLUTLY .. no debate there,
team got 12 weeks (or less) of pro ball out of their draft pick(s)
they coulda filled those roster spots for that season w/undrafted free agents,
signed for a cheesburger & bus ticket (figuratively speaking )

be curious to know if the scout who drafted/signed those guys is still with that team?

quote:

in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed

In our dealings with one academy in particular, when asked point blank about "going pro" we were told "We do not encourage it. If your goal is to play pro ball...you should perhaps re-think attending a military academy. You do not go to 'name of academy' with the ultimate goal to play pro ball." I will say that we are not talking West Point here. And I also will say I appreciated the point blank statement on their part and felt it was upfront and honorable to be so candid. I guess it was a wrong assumption to think that all the academies operated the same way. This was 5 years ago....have things changed that significantly?

quote:

Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.

I don't know Dan....being a life-long Phillies fan...I have seen my fair share of burned draft choices!

All teams burn draft choices.
IMO.I don't think it is done on purpose. It's up to the drafting scout to make sure he has all information to present to the team. The biggest consideration, this player will sign when drafted. I wouldhope that when presented an opportunity, all players (mine included) make their postiions clear as to their intentions. If any player is told that he would be able to postpone duty and go for it, then so be it, and I would agree the fault lies on mixed signals given from the Academies.

That's where asking about policy comes into the picture.

A large part of the draft is about signability, not always talent. You will understand that someday soon.

Let's not make this a drafting issue.

quote:

tpm quote:
A large part of the draft is about signability, not always talent

IMO, the draft is about talent, what round you are drafted in is where signability may be a factor. Very, very seldom is an eligible player who has "pro tools" overlooked because he is unsignable. If you have those tools, someone will take a gamble in the late rounds just in case there is a change in a players direction.

ClevelandDad, please turn down your sensitivity receptor. I did a little surfing about drafted cadets; be they ball players or b-ball players, the reports seem to be talking about the potential to play for an allotted period of time, and then go on a recruiting assignment. Not specific to a poster's son --- it was the case with all the drafted cadets (MLB & NBA) I found reference to.

Perhaps it was the Podunk remark that offended you, in which case that would be a reference to all minor league sons here. I'd apologize, but those boys can recognize Podunk when they see it!

luvbb, let's see what I can do again

I've never heard of somebody going to an Academy whose ultimate goal was to be drafted for baseball. I'll agree- they'd love to do it and they're not going to just give it up just because they are going to a Service Academy. Wrong or right? Depends on the person. Everybody has an opinion. I personally believe it is important for the Academies to be vague otherwise they would not get even DI-quality athletes. Instead, they would probably end up with medicore players. Therefore they would probably have to compete at a lower level than DI. (Not trying to be offensive to any athletes.. college athletes are college athletes to me) Again, right or wrong? Depends on the person.

There are dual reasons for athletics at a service academy. First, there are the publicity and recruitment aspect. The TV, the big games, etc. How about when the team is doing well and make an appearance in the NCAA Regionals?

The second reason I believe the General Douglas Macarthur sums up very well.On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory.

I believe it is wrong for an applicant to a Service Academy to go there with full intentions of playing baseball afterwards. I do, on the other hand, believe though that the opportunity should be allowed if it were to come up. West Point and the Army currently allow that. Navy and Air Force do not.

Luvbb, I haven't gotten to go digging yet for overseas assignments.. I'll try doing that this afternoon

The Air Force Academy decided to recruit this young man!

The Armed Forces decided to allow him to participate in a professional sport without forgiving his future obligation.

The young man has done everything he was told to do and it appears he is prepared to do whatever his country tells him to do.

His father is one of us.

I can’t even imagine why we are questioning what happened. I wonder how far we would allow this type of questioning on here, if it were a different situation regarding another person/player.

I understand why some might feel the need to question the system or policy, but why not give the son of a “high school Webster” a break and pull for his son just like all the other son’s who are playing baseball. There is no set schedule for giving the ultimate for your country. He has to serve because he made the commitment. Near as I can tell he is more than willing to live up to that commitment. We should be honoring him for taking on this obligation to his country rather than trying to find some fault that simply doesn’t exist. Why not just be happy that he is getting this opportunity.

Blame Major League Baseball, blame the Armed Forces, blame the Air Force Academy, blame us because we promoted this kid to all 30 MLB clubs, blame the war, blame anything, but don’t blame this young man. He has done nothing wrong!

quote:

Luvbb, I haven't gotten to go digging yet for overseas assignments.. I'll try doing that this afternoon

Bulldog...hope you had a good day of classes! I'm sure you have enough to do without digging up info for us here. I can do it myself! Thanks tho.

quote:

But again, I wouldn't publicly question others who took advantage of an available "proviso"...but I WOULD publicly question the policy that makes such a proviso available.

Point taken. Why don't you question it where it might do some good? No one here has any authority to change it.

For what its worth, my son was sought after by the USAF (being less than an hour away) and back then going pro wasn't much of an option out of the USAF so he passed.

Good post PG!

IMO this topic has run its course.

quote:

Point taken. Why don't you question it where it might do some good? No one here has any authority to change it.

I'm sorry Frank...I was answering CD's question.
"IMO this topic has run its course."
Point taken..and I agree.

PG, with respect, we have been trying to discuss the policy of some of the Academies without making it personal. There are a number of cadets drafted for different pro sports. This isn't about any one cadet/officer/player/draftee. Actually, a USMA (rather than a USAFA) father has been quite active in the discussion.

Perhaps if you had read some of the thread before you came out swinging....

I agree with Frank's point.

PG,
I know some may feel the player has been slighted, but not sure where anyone blamed him.

If there are more questions about these current topics, I would like to recommend that those interested, ask a currently deployed service member what their opinion is.

They are not talking about these issues.
They are not arguing about these issues.
They are living them.

quote:

by PG: I understand why some might feel the need to question the system or policy, but why not give the son of a “high school Webster” a break and pull for his son

agree, kudos to our webster player & his family

and tho some comments are hard to deceipher, as far as I can tell the past 5 pages or so have been about other players in general, academy "ex-pro-players" specificly, and an elusive policy/promise/proviso (gee, that's such a neat word )

it has been pretty interesting and probably of value for parents of players considering the academy route in the future.

from all indications the "proviso/promise" is similar in form to what many DI coaches offer some top prospects ... that promise, is somewhat vague & NEVER in writing - and the coach and player can have very different understandings of what it means

tho no awol possibilites exist in ncaa

Orlando,

It wasn’t my intent to come out swinging, I’ve found that to be a good way to get knocked on my azz!

However, I can guarantee anyone here, that this thread hit very close to home for one of our “friends” here.

You are correct, I should have read every word in this thread before posting anything. I hardly ever pay attention to who’s posting what. That way you don’t get caught up in choosing any sides.

It’s just that I “thought” I read some words regarding commitment to the military vs being able to pursue other things. Whether that was meant as an overall viewpoint or not, I bet it hit some on here a lot harder than others. Sometimes the blame can be directed to a single person, but it really can seem very personal if you fit in the same picture.

Maybe a certain player wasn't mentioned or blamed. But his situation here is fairly well known. Maybe I will go back and read this thread a bit closer. Sorry if I said anything wrong in that previous post.

.
PG,

Spot on in your original post.

Read the first page of the thread...The thread began exactly there.

44.
.

your input is always appreciated PG & maybe you can help me out w/the database in your head ..
the aspect of academy "pro players" I'm trying to understand is

1) are they offered the pro option on a short leash, then "pressured" into active duty?

if NO - - there should be academy players scattered thru-out MiLB/MLB(?) in similar numbers to those of other Patriot League (& similar type) schools

if NO - - it seems odd that the "ex-players" cplz spoke of would, attract pro interest, sign pro contracts, play 12 weeks, then choose active duty & leave pro baseball

Bee,

Thanks, I appreciate reading your posts too.

I really know very little about all this stuff. I’m not very smart and operate off of common sense and this involves the government! So I can't help you out with that question.

I do like some of the Academy coaches I've met. And I surely have utmost respect for any kid who goes that route. And I'm really happy for those who have a chance to live their baseball dream. And I think all those fighting for our country are truly the real heroes. No matter what time of the year they actually serve.

What would this group have to say if the player was asked to play in an independent pro league. Would the services allow that? Or, does it have to have the MLB stamp of approval. The Indep Leeague also have "realizing a dream" potential. My only thought here is that any cadet coming out of 4 years of premium service education could find a place in the civilian world where he could play both roles.

I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.

Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.

Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".

Well I've read some more and I'll be darned if I don't see a certain name mentioned a lot in this thread. Maybe not in a real bad way, but mentioned with what is perceived to be a somewhat dishonorable type thing.

rz1 posted

quote:

Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".

I don't think rz meant that as a blow to one individual and was just repeating what some might read as the hidden message here. But what would that one individual and his family feel? Karl Bolt has not been a part of any "buy out"! He is honorably serving his country or at least will be shortly. I'm not sure how the other similiar cases have been worked out.

I can't help but see this as we all know, there are much more important things in life than baseball. For most all of us, fighting for our country is one of those more important things. Even more important to most is the health and happiness of their family. But all seem very important at the time.

quote:

Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".

PG...the "buy out" was not brought up in reference to the situation you are talking about. Another poster brought it up as an option at West Point. And "buy out" may not be the appropriate terminology. RZ....I asked the same question and as far as I could understand...it was only for athletes...altho I readily admit I could have misunderstood because things got heated. This was in no way referenced to the Air Force Academy...but another option that was presented from a different academy.

No one ever said Officer Bolt was trying to "buy out" his commitment or that it was even an option at the Air Force Academy.

pg: "buy out" was a bad phrase on my part and I hope that was not assumed by any other service family as that was not my intent.

quote:

luvbb quote:
I asked the same question and as far as I could understand...it was only for athletes

That was my real question and I ask why only athletes as many others may fall into that category?