Short to zone...Long through zone

A quote from Gerry Hogan.......

"As every engineer knows, if you pass energy along a transmission chain, you will lose some of it at every coupling or joint. Now, in purely mechanical terms, the joints of the human body are extremely inefficient at transmitting energy. As a result, as much as 90 per cent of any energy you generate by a movement of the legs or hips would be lost by the time it reached the golf club. Somebody once calculated that about 4.5 horsepower has to be generated at the clubhead in the course of an ordinary golf stroke. So, if this were to come from the legs and hips, the legs and hips would need to generate more than 50 horsepower to begin with, given the heavy loss in transmission. The idea is ludicrous. Only the legs of a superman would be capable of such a feat."

BlueDog,

You know that you and I came to agreement as two sincere people seeking the Holy Grail this past spring. I remember like it was yesterday when we both came to the same conclusions from our studies involving the center, however, the center is only part of the total hitter. We have addressed so many other key elements in this thread along with the center as you and I have explored in our discussions. There are just so many other key attributes a hitter must have or attain through hard work to be the greatest ever. My philosophy is, "if you set your goals to be the best, even if you fall short, you're still a winner!" Shepism

You're a winner BlueDog! Keep up the passion! peace, shep

Brn2Hit>

quote:

I believe that the "toe to heel plant" also comes into play to control and focus the momentum generated by your body as the hitter prepares for contact.

Brn2hit,

This is a key point often overlooked, especially with pitchers. peace, shep

HOF1962 said:

quote:

This process slows down with an off speed pitch to a low speed of accelerated motion with the lever(bat) gathering energy as it moves the core of the rotational swing into position, slower but with a deliberate gathering of energy, which is even more powerful, if done correctly.

Could this possibly be the float that BlueDog refers to from Teacherman's group? On off speed pitches, the "float" makes sense for a change in semantics of word usage, for the lack of the use of a better word. No pun intended

BlueDog said: "What I want is for some of Teacherman's people to jump in and talk about the "float", "circling the bat" and other such things they believe takes place in MLB swings"

peace

Brn2hit,

Have we ever played on the same field together and have you ever used tennis nets made into a hitting facility made by an Orioles scout on Nelson?

Could it be??? peace shep

Quote from SI>TED WILLIAMS: "Back to guys who should be good hitters who aren't. They swing at too many pitchers' pitches. You do, too, Don. I know you do. What did you have, 45 walks last year? At least Wade makes the pitchers give him something to hit."-End Quote

This is the difference between winners and the best. Swinging at good pitches. So many players have fallen victim to mediocrity because of what Ted Williams clearly points out to Mattingly and Boggs in this very entertaining discussion. Thanks for sharing this with us BlueDog. Good Night Fellas! peace shep

Must admit I am somewhat baffled by where this thread has gone....

quote:

What I want is for some of Teacherman's people to jump in and talk about the "float", "circling the bat" and other such things they believe takes place in MLB swings......And, if they do, I would advise everyone to pay attention.....

IMO that's excellent advice.


What I refer to as sitting i.e. lowering COG on an offspeed pitch:

quote:

Brn2Hit, I'm assuming you, Win M All and HOF are part of Teacherman's group.......With the recent signups, and all......And, the fact that HOF and Win M All talks of flickering lightbulb moments.....Not withstanding the fact that HOF made a feeble attempt to provoke me......

No BlueDog, you're paranoid. I'm not a part of teacherman's group either. The general consensus from most here suggests you're in the minority.

Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer

Bluedog,

My only agenda here is to help the players on my team be the best hitters they can be. PERIOD!!!

That's why I read, study, experiment, and then ask questions of people like you who seem to know a lot about a theory of hitting that I would like to know more about.

quote:

Nobody understood my intent about loading, stopping, then unloading.....If you don't understand where and how to load, you certainly don't understand momentum along with how the linkage functions

BlueDog,

I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

WinMAll,

Quit p!ssing BlueDog off WinMAll, I want to hear what he has to say too! Sound familiar? pg. 34

When a thread starts to go astray like this one, it's best to revert to the original topic

Short to zone...Long through zone

Good one Shep. I guess I had that coming.

Win M All,

It's coaches like you who are the best! Those who seek the necessary knowledge to make their team #1 will be #1. I have the utmost respect for your passion on this board, especially in the hitting forum.

Good luck this spring, but who needs luck, when hard work and sweat meet the ultimate test of "preparation meets opportunity".

Maybe we can contribute a little bit to help out

Peace Skipper,
Shep

quote:

When a thread starts to go astray like this one, it's best to revert to the original topic

Thanks NY DAD, even my lightning fast wireless ability had trouble loading that one you removed

It was a good one though except it had certain stop issues at contacccttt

Well anyway, it's time to re-ignite the after contact(Long Through Zone) part of the discussion.

Today, I hit about 500 golf balls and the man beside me had no turn or rotation and just stopped at contact. The furthest ball he hit was about 100 yards down wind with a roll. The golfer beside him, one more station down, was the same except "all arms" and a little stronger with absolutely no follow through in swing and hit one or two 150 yards. You're typical, "chop and stop swing". I showed the one stronger fella how to keep the clubhead in the zone longer with a rotational turn and follow through which immediately increased his distance by fifty yards. A nice high finish in follow through with flexibility in extension. What a difference!!!
peace shep

BlueDog said: "What I want is for some of Teacherman's people to jump in and talk about the "float", "circling the bat" and other such things they believe takes place in MLB swings

IMO the middle doesn't exist other than being a rubber band. It is working only when the upper body loading pattern interfaces in time with the unloading lower body. Learning to work the middle is learning to load the shoulders late in the sequence as the hips rotate into foot plant and turn left

As to the float.... I have an avi file of my son hitting a long toss HR that corresponds with this youtube clip

Quicktime shows his barrel loaded outside his helmet to about 4 inches from toe touch. His barrel is in the 45 launch slot at heel drop.

The transition of the barrel is "the float". It is never static or dead starting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAjIO0_JTI

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Many believe the plane of the swing should match the path of the pitch as soon as possible....

I don't...

BlueDog,
I was hoping that you could divulge a little more information here. I have heard many people make this statement, I was hoping to get your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
In this clip, I see the bat barrel reversing direction as soon as the front toe touches the ground......

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg

In other clips, the bat barrel doesn't reverse direction until the front heel touches down.....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Griffey01.mpeg

I was also wondering if any of you that seem so good at finding clips could find the same batter utillizing both of these swings. Is this just a hitters choice type of thing, or are their hitters that use both swings depedning on pitch speed or wthether or not they were "fooled"

spindoc said:

quote:

BlueDog,
I was hoping that you could divulge a little more information here.

spindoc, I believe BlueDog is shaking off the sign ....peace

BlueDog,

Is that to say that the barrel of the bat is brought on plane by the top hand and wrist?

Reggie's swing clip illustrates the top hand and wrist very well.

I just deleted two pages of PM's at Julie's request to the board in G.E. forum. I believe it will help for us all to eliminate all old PM's. Before anybody says it, it's not the pics or video clips because most of all that comes from "other" servers that host that pic or clip peace shep

BlueDog

What about the wrists after contact?

My guy is being taught to use his top hand and wrist to snap the bat at contact which significantly increases his bat speed. It appears to be quite effective, allowing him to really pick up his power and ability to turn on the inside pitch.
The Reggie Jackson clip seems to illustrate this approach.

I don't think it really matters what happens (to your wrist, or any other part of your body) after contact as long as you don't fall on the ground and can't run the bases. I guess you can fall down after contact too, so long as the ball goes over the fence.

quote:

My guy is being taught to use his top hand and wrist to snap the bat at contact which significantly increases his bat speed

Thanks Shep!
Stop by to see a game or two. He hit one out during BP yesterday with wood. Two others at the fence that easily would have been over with metal. About 360'.

quote:

I don't think it really matters what happens (to your wrist) after contact........

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this.....

quote:

I guess you can fall down after contact too, so long as the ball goes over the fence

A brother of mine actually did that in a game for Ga southern Eagles a few years back. A pinch runner had to trot the HR out while my brother was removed from the field with a dislocated knee. true story peace shep

Barry Bonds 1

Barry Bonds 2

There can be a lot of arguments about hands-arms-wrists etc. The hand is attached to the wrist which is attached to the forearm and so on.It would be hard to have hand, wrist or arm action without including all of them.

I have also heard the argument about getting on the plane early or late. Before I would comment on that, someone would have to explain what they think early is and they would also have to explain where they think late is in the swing. The clips at 60 fps or better can show where the good major league hitters bathead is when it starts to get on plane, but I don't worry about it, because if you learn to have a good swing, that will happen and you won't have to worry about it. If you have a poor swing it won't happen early or late.

floridafan

Miami opens up this weekend in Super Bowl land. Playing Mercer University out of GA.
UPDATE#1:MERCER BEATS MIAMI 6-5 IN SEASON OPENER!Feb 2(Friday)
UPDATE#2:MERCER BEATS MIAMI 8-5 HANDING HURRICANES BACK-TO-BACK LOSSES TO BEGIN 2007 SEASON!Feb 3 (Sat.)

PM me a schedule and I'll see what I can do,

peace shep

BlueDog

You're right about that!

Good Night Fellas and peace to all! shep

Hey bbscout,

On the 2nd bonds clip, if you go frame by frame, about an inch from the end of the clip you will see that the bat travels a long way in one frame. I think that is the wrist.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
On the 2nd bonds clip, if you go frame by frame, about an inch from the end of the clip you will see that the bat travels a long way in one frame. I think that is the wrist.

Are you talking about around 2:14?

If so, then I disagree. The wrists simply aren't strong enough to do that.

Instead, the large movement of the bat is caused by the deceleration of the rotation of his shoulders. Inertia causes the head of the bat to rapidly whip around.

It's the same thing that happens to a pitcher's elbow. It rapidly extends when the pitcher's shoulders quickly stop turning due to the principle of Inertia.

I know my Son's wrists are not stronger then Bond's. He has the abitity to use his top hand in conjunction with his wrist to whip the bat at contact. That is one of the principal things he has learned to do.
He works extensively with a drill called "Dynamic Pepper" whitch focuses specifically on working the top hand. The top hand only works if the wrist works. It burns his forearms as well. This not a hitting style where the hand is connected to the wrist to the arm and they all go round type swing. For better or worse. I have seen great success with the style that I have addressed, for both power and average. And it is not a linear approach.

FloridaFan

Hope you guys are okay over there! We were spared for now! Code Yellow all day with the warnings!


Here is a good example of the tilt of Rickey Henderson a few years back:
Now this is a serious tilt and Power "V". Comparable to the outside box

That is awesome Shep. I need to figure out how to save that one to my hard drive!

Thank you Floridafan. I'm glad you're alright! peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I don't believe arm action includes the wrists...The wrist angle needs to be there at ball contact....

Jeff has some good examples on his site.....

http://www.swingtraining.net/Swing.html

This wrist angle needs to be set as Bluedog states. If you go to the above site and view the videos at the bottom, look at Bonds 1 in quicktime. Use the feature on progress the video clip by clip. That ball is far off the bat before the wrist rotate. Look at the other video for similar views. I wish I had permission from a certain site to post some of their pics. I could show you this detailed time and again and even highlighted with the RVP features.

Here is something to think about, you say snap wrist at contact. You sense contact, that message is sent to your brain and then you must ask your muscles to respond to affect wrist action. What is the time frame for such action? I don't know. Then ask yourself exactly how long is that ball on the barrel of that bat?

Who believes this philosophy? Stan Musial in 1963. Looks like Stan is trying to get some tilt in the middle illustration, no.8 clip One thing I can say about his videoclips I've looked at this weekend, Musial has great balance and doesn't get on his front side too soon. His bat is just too 90 degree to my liking and he doesn't c-o-c-k bat in reverse arc at top of load enough before forward arc occurs, JMHO now ....peace shep

quote:

Batspeed is energy....

Energy is batspeed......

Release it....Don't save it for the follow-through....

BlueDog,

Just read this post you made a while back. This describes perfectly a karate demonstration I had the honor of watching today. The priest used the "Chop and stop" method with all energy being released at the impact of concrete blocks

Definately had a domino effect in the follow-through though

good evening board peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:

For the record, the "good level swing" that Musial is demonstrating in the third frame isn't physically possible.

For complicated reasons involving physics, the plane of the swing is perpendicular to the player's spine. That means that in most cases the swing plane is tilted a fair amount.

The only time that a hitter swings level, with the bat parallel to the ground, is on a ball up at the letters.

The swing plane is not perp to the spine.